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RvWs 4 year contract

My one gripe with Hughton

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This is just my opinion of course but I think a big reason why we''re not as good going forward this year (i.e. scoring and creating chances) is because the full backs have been restricted in their movement going forward.Yesterday- during the period when we looked really dangerous (i.e between 50 and 65 minutes) the full backs had pushed right up and were supporting the wingers well. I dont think it was very coincidental that as soon as Reading scored, midfield dropped off and the full backs dropped back as well.For some reason WFL GH insists on drifting out wide (whether that''s because what he''s been told to do or whatever) which prevents the full backs roaming forward and that was a big reason why we scored a lot of goals last year.Think of all the goals we scored last year that came as a result of Cafu and Mad Marc pushing on beyond Pilks and Benno. Ofcourse by the defenders pushing on we''re inevitably going to concede more which is probably the crux of the issue. I''m really happy with Hughton and would definitely keep him for next season but I''d just wish that he''d keep Holty in the centre- where he can do the most damage and that the full backs would push on more.

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Has Holt ever stuck to the centre? He''s always drifted wide, I certainly remember moaning about it before this season.

I do agree with the full backs though, they give the wingers another option when they could only get a poor cross in. I think Garido especially looks much better when he''s allowed to get forward.

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[quote user="NorthWalesCanary"]Garido especially looks much better when he''s allowed to get forward.[/quote]

 

Agreed - he showed his worth yest as early as the 2nd min when he put in a peach of a cross for snoddy to fluff.

 

And yes - Holt has always drifted wide.

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There are reasons that we play the way we play, reasons why full backs are maybe told to get forward or not.Tactically we have had to cut our cloth accordingly, based on our players capabilities.Full backs bombing on when you either don''t have players to cover, or centre backs with pace = leaking loads of goals, sound familiar?

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Oh and the players dropped off because they are nervous, they know how much the win meant to us yesterday. Its all very well the fans sat in the stands shouting "Push forward" and "Get out" but thats why they are sat in the stands, and aren''t playing on the pitch.

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[quote user="morty"]Oh and the players dropped off because they are nervous, they know how much the win meant to us yesterday. Its all very well the fans sat in the stands shouting "Push forward" and "Get out" but thats why they are sat in the stands, and aren''t playing on the pitch.[/quote]

I''m completely happy with Hughton and as I''ve said I would keep him here next year. However, we have struggled with goal scoring at times this year so I thought I would put my point of view across as to how we can continue to improve. I accept that our players have got strengths and weaknesses and I''m really happy with their efforts throughout this season.

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Have to agree with Morty...

Would love to have known what the fans would have made of a Norwich attack with Garrido and Martin in advanced positions with 5minutes to go, and Reading counteract and we only get a draw.

So we moaning, that they push forward till we got in a 2-0 lead, and then controlled their position to make it less vulnerable to attacks.

Naturally it means holding possession is harder with less attacking.

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But last year all the complaints were about lack of clean sheets. Perhaps the two things are related.

 

If we could keep clean sheets and score more goals we''d be champions league contenders. But I suspect we aren''t good enough.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

But last year all the complaints were about lack of clean sheets. Perhaps the two things are related.

 

If we could keep clean sheets and score more goals we''d be champions league contenders. But I suspect we aren''t good enough.

 

 

[/quote]I''m not going to apologise for suggesting ways that Norwich can improve.That''s what we all want surely?

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Frankly, my thoughts were that we made the game too open as the team 2-0 up, and that is what lead to their goal.

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[quote user="7rew"]Frankly, my thoughts were that we made the game too open as the team 2-0 up, and that is what lead to their goal.[/quote]Agree[Y]As entertaining as it was, it was tactically naive.

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[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

But last year all the complaints were about lack of clean sheets. Perhaps the two things are related.

 

If we could keep clean sheets and score more goals we''d be champions league contenders. But I suspect we aren''t good enough.

 

 

[/quote]

I''m not going to apologise for suggesting ways that Norwich can improve.

That''s what we all want surely?
[/quote]

 

I''m sure you''re not going to. And why should you? That''s a strange comment to make.

 

The point I was making is that teams that can keep clean sheets and score goals are in the top six and always will be. We''ve now scored four goals in our last two home games and conceded three. The two before that we scored two and conceded one. The two before that we scored one and conceded one. That''s how good I think we are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Agreed, how on earth he was allowed that much time and space within our half was ridiculous, we deserved to concede to teach ourselves a lesson

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This discussion is at the heart of the matter. The wide players and the FB''s are the key to CH''s emphasis on ''balance''. Their freedom to attack varies according to the quality of the opposition and whether at home or away. At home against Reading, more chances were taken with the FB''s going forward, but that wouldn''t be the case against ManUtd. I think the ''balance'' could well change to more attacking next year, but that would be because City have better players in key positions (DM most of all).

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I agree the game got too open but there is a happy medium and on most occasions this season we''ve been far too deep so you invite pressure and can''t get out.

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[quote user="morty"]Full backs bombing on when you either don''t have players to cover, or centre backs with pace = leaking loads of goals, sound familiar?[/quote]last time I looked we leak loads of goals and have a terrible goal difference.   And given we play with two defensive midfielders, and the extremely hard working Snodgrass on one wing we surely have cover?  Or do we need to play with 3 DMCs or 4 before it becomes viable.

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What system though? I keep hearing about "the system". I bet if we started a thread to describe "the system" we''d get so many different replies that we''d still be none the wiser.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

What system though? I keep hearing about "the system". I bet if we started a thread to describe "the system" we''d get so many different replies that we''d still be none the wiser.

 

 

[/quote]Exactly what I was trying to get at there Mr. Nutty.I''ve lost count at the amount of games I''ve been to this year where I''ve heard "we''ve set up too defensively".That implies that there is a system but frankly.. I dont think there is. We change week in week out- with 2 upfront 1 one week and 2 upfront the next.Hughton doesnt have a specific system.

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I will judge CH next season if and when he replaces the players that, he believes, stop us playing good football.

Thus far though I am fed up with the uninspiring defensive stuff that has resulted in a shocking goal difference and just enough points to try again next time.

I also think that when the crowd are shouting for the team to press further up the pitch it is because they can see the danger, not as Morty patronizingly dismisses it, that they can;t play the game. Please stop the excuses.

Anyway, here''s to a final push up the table.

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[quote user="the bristol nest"]I will judge CH next season if and when he replaces the players that, he believes, stop us playing good football.

Thus far though I am fed up with the uninspiring defensive stuff that has resulted in a shocking goal difference and just enough points to try again next time.

I also think that when the crowd are shouting for the team to press further up the pitch it is because they can see the danger, not as Morty patronizingly dismisses it, that they can;t play the game. Please stop the excuses.

Anyway, here''s to a final push up the table.[/quote]Patronisingly?Do you go to games at all?Are you not surrounded by idiots who clearly know nothing about football? Do you think that the players are so totally positionally unaware that they don''t know what part of the pitch they are standing on?

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[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

What system though? I keep hearing about "the system". I bet if we started a thread to describe "the system" we''d get so many different replies that we''d still be none the wiser.

 

 

[/quote]Exactly what I was trying to get at there Mr. Nutty.I''ve lost count at the amount of games I''ve been to this year where I''ve heard "we''ve set up too defensively".That implies that there is a system but frankly.. I dont think there is. We change week in week out- with 2 upfront 1 one week and 2 upfront the next.Hughton doesnt have a specific system.[/quote]He only has a specific (usually negative) system if the person viewing it has no appreciation whatsoever of football and tactics. I am sure you know the kind of people I am talking about, they usually surface on Canary call.

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Grant Holt''s 3 year contract  The question I have is:  Is the system right (and therefore the current players not quite good enough)?OR   Is the system wrong?

Its a good question.   The "system", whatever that is, is Hughton''s system.    It is the reason he is our manager.   It has become obvious - I think to a lot of us - that actually, Hughton''s way does work.   There have been times when it has been terrific.  Other times the players have struggled to get beyond the defensive side of things - mainly due to the lack of quality in midfield. 

Look at it like this. If your back four and goalkeeper are good and solid, the onus is  then on the midfield to take it on and do something with the ball.     The trouble is that a lot of the time they don''t.   So you have the effect of the defence winning out a lot of the time - thus giving the midfield more of the ball - and what happens when they get a lot more of the ball?  They  lose it more.   So it appears worse than last season.   But it isn''t really, its just that we are getting the ball more often in midfield areas.  

Last season we hardly ever had a good possession percentage - why? Because we were so disorganised as a team - spirited, enthusiastic, competitive - but not good in possession.  The odd marauding victory, the odd tactical genius, the chopping and changing confusing the opposition (and us).    This season we are getting more possession - so it appears that we are worse.   If a player has a certain success level of passing, say 75%,  then if he receives the ball 20 times, he will  give it away five times.   5 mistakes.   If a player receives the ball 40 times, he will give it away ten times.  10 mistakes.   So on the face of it the more player gets the ball, the more he will give it away.   

Does that maker sense?  It does to me, because answering the question, are the players not quite good enough for the system, the answer has to be yes.  They are good enough to get points and win matches and at times look really good, but really, the facts speak for themselves.  Too many games where not enough chances being made. Stick with me.   If a player is receiving the ball in possession more, you would think that would lead to an increase in chances, but it hasn''t always happened.  Why? Because they are having to think more.   Last season, more direct - had to be through necessity - we let in too many goals.  This season more controlled, therefore relying more on player''s skill levels.  

Question answered.    I think......

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"]Tldr.[/quote]

Yes, well I do understand, one line put downs are much more your style.

[/quote]I play to the audiences perceived intelligence, I prefer to keep things simple.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]Grant Holt''s 3 year contract  The question I have is:  Is the system right (and therefore the current players not quite good enough)?OR   Is the system wrong?

Its a good question.   The "system", whatever that is, is Hughton''s system.    It is the reason he is our manager.   It has become obvious - I think to a lot of us - that actually, Hughton''s way does work.   There have been times when it has been terrific.  Other times the players have struggled to get beyond the defensive side of things - mainly due to the lack of quality in midfield. 

Look at it like this. If your back four and goalkeeper are good and solid, the onus is  then on the midfield to take it on and do something with the ball.     The trouble is that a lot of the time they don''t.   So you have the effect of the defence winning out a lot of the time - thus giving the midfield more of the ball - and what happens when they get a lot more of the ball?  They  lose it more.   So it appears worse than last season.   But it isn''t really, its just that we are getting the ball more often in midfield areas.  

Last season we hardly ever had a good possession percentage - why? Because we were so disorganised as a team - spirited, enthusiastic, competitive - but not good in possession.  The odd marauding victory, the odd tactical genius, the chopping and changing confusing the opposition (and us).    This season we are getting more possession - so it appears that we are worse.   If a player has a certain success level of passing, say 75%,  then if he receives the ball 20 times, he will  give it away five times.   5 mistakes.   If a player receives the ball 40 times, he will give it away ten times.  10 mistakes.   So on the face of it the more player gets the ball, the more he will give it away.   

Does that maker sense?  It does to me, because answering the question, are the players not quite good enough for the system, the answer has to be yes.  They are good enough to get points and win matches and at times look really good, but really, the facts speak for themselves.  Too many games where not enough chances being made. Stick with me.   If a player is receiving the ball in possession more, you would think that would lead to an increase in chances, but it hasn''t always happened.  Why? Because they are having to think more.   Last season, more direct - had to be through necessity - we let in too many goals.  This season more controlled, therefore relying more on player''s skill levels.  

Question answered.    I think......

[/quote]You''ve hit the nail on the head there for me LDC even if it was a bit "tldr" [;)]Amongst my friends that I know who support Norwich City, I have been banging on that midfield just isnt good enough.Johnson and Tettey are hard, willing workers who do the jobs that they have been bought in to do. They are not very good at creating chances and they are not very good at finding space. This isnt me knocking them by the way as I think they are good at the defensive side of things- but they are not very good at helping the team go forward.Howson however IS better at going forward and I dont think it''s a coincidence that since he''s started playing more recently we''ve scored more goals - 5 in the last 3 since his run back in the side. When people say "Hughton is too defensive"- they are wrong. It is the central midfielders who are too defensive- or actually it is the central midfielders (Johnson and Tettey) who are better at the defensive work.

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[quote user="AJ"]Agreed, how on earth he was allowed that much time and space within our half was ridiculous, we deserved to concede to teach ourselves a lesson[/quote]Well i don''t know, but, whilst i appreciate Howsons effort for being the only one to try and track the goalscorer, he gave up at just, stopped running with him after a few seconds. From then on, no-one decided to go with him but was poor from everyone.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]This season we are getting more possession - so it appears that we are worse.   [/quote]We just aren''t.  Last season we averaged 46.8% possession 76% passing success, 13.5 shots per game, this season 42.6% possession, 73.6% passing success, 10.9 shots per game.

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