Stadium expansion?

[Bws Cat 0]

Perhaps like ricardos reports after a game, city1st should write a binners report after a trolling outbreak?

[Steady On... 0]

Here we go again! Haha!

It''s scooby doo and the gang back to solve another mystery and "unmask" the bad guy

You and the other one, couple of sad old men. Embarrassing.

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

Clearly a very disturbed individual.

 

"Your a moron." Priceless.

[Steady On... 0]

So are you velma or daphne?

Nothing of worth to say? What a surprise!

Just let idiot 1 and idiot 2 the "binfinder scooby squad" sort everything out till the disbeliever goes away and you guys can go back to talking about signing Michael Owen again.

[Stig 0]

While I''ve not read the whole of this thread because the topic is tired and boring now - I''m quite concerned to see the persecution of Steady On...

So, he misnames part of the stadium - a sin we probably have all committed at some time or other and wants an expansion that is currently, and in my opinion agreeably, unfeasible. Why does this make him a fan of the scum?

City1st, as far as I can see it is a fact that if someone does not initially agree with a point you have to make they are in your opinion part of the binner brigade. No doubt for calling you out on this latent behaviour I have secluded myself to the binner corner as well. Not everyone that has an alternative opinion or different view point on matters NCFC (even if it is contradictory to the infallible personas of McNally and Bowkett) are automatically Ipswich Fans.

Disgraceful lack of basic communication skills, if I say so myself.

[KeelansGlove 0]

Not wanting to get dragged into this strange side issue I think that the only realistic way to get expansion at carrow road would be some sort of Bond for potential new season ticket holders (and try to find a way to increase the capacity with as little disruption to the existing seats as possible)

Many other clubs have done this before although it has not always been met with a favourable response by supporters.

If say 5000 people were prepared to commit to buy a season ticket for 5 years at £400 theres 10M half the cost of a new stand.

If not enough people were to sign up then obviously the club would have a mandate for keeping things as they are.

Win WIn for the club

[Stig 0]

Jesus christ, you should all be f*cking well ashamed of yourselves! Having taken the time to look back a few pages I am in total shock. Openly sporting the idea to SHRINK the stadium should some of the stands succumb to age... idiotic.

Claiming a right to attend Carrow Road based on the fact you sat through some bad times... ridiculous.

Carrow Road, if you cast your mind back just a few short years ago was still being filled nicely in League 1. There wasn''t a drastic drop off in support at all.

And Steady On is quite right, the club should push on and do what they can to improve the stadium, squad, national presence. In the same breath you will bemoan the media, the board etc. for installing the "Little Old Norwich" mentality - yet here you are openly promoting that you WANT to be "Little Old Norwich". Let me tell you this for a fact, Norwich is NOT a local club for local people. I''ve said it before, but I will say it again - being in the Premier League means we will meet a wider variety of audience.

Hell, just the other week I was outside my house and a child no older than 10 came over and commented on my Norwich shirt. I asked him who his favourite player for Norwich was, fully expecting him to say "Holt." Instead he turned to me and said "Surman," Oh, but I forgot - he hasn''t been attending Carrow Road since before it was even fucking well built so he can''t be a god damn fucking fan can he?

Sorry Steady On, but I don''t think these old fools can be reasoned with.

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

And in the current economic climate, how realistic a proposition is it to expect several thousand people to stump up a couple of grand for the prospect of seeing football in who knows what division five years hence. If in any doubt about the real levels of additional support I offer up a recent Capitol One cup match against Tottenham Hotspur, m''lud. "Fans" are fickle.

[Stig 0]

You really are, aren''t you Mungo?

I thought, if anything - The Tottenham game would be a sellout. Much to my delight and surprise... it wasn''t! Far from it in fact. For once, the consumer stood back and disagreed with the product on offer. "In the current economic climate" who can afford to pay a silly amount for a cup game Norwich have not in recent times done well in. The lack of attendance was about sending a message to the board, not anything to do with support. Remove your head from your ar*se you fool.

[Tumbleweed 106]

That''s an interesting point by KG a few posts above. I wonder how many people are on the season ticket waiting list? Could you sign up a number on a debenture basis where they do buy for 5 or 10 years as you suggest a right to a seat for a lump sum. Combine that with a sponsor (eg would Aviva or another big organsiation pay for naming rights- not ideal but would be a price we might consider to help with the funding) and a long term fully secured loan where you could probably get a good low fixed interest rate. I am sure there are financing gurus who could come up with some options. Or, how about just buying back the hotel and replace it entirely with another 1500 seats?

 

The increase in PL money from next year will actually be very useful for us as I don''t see us being in the market for £5m + players other than on an exceptional basis, and I see gradual evolution of the squad instead of wholesale changes. So for us I would hope that some of this money can be set aside and invested to build up a kitty for some ground improvement.

 

One thing we have lacked in recent years is good transfer fees for players we have developed ourselves. This is a shame. Look at Saints and the fees from Oxlade Chamberlain, Bale and Walcott, it shows what sort of numbers you can generate if you get the academy right. Had our academy been better at churning out some good youngsters we might have a bit more in the kitty.

 

However the biggest issue is whether,  and if so the extent, to which we actually need expansion. At times we could probably fill another 10K seats, but those games are few and far between. The board must balance supply and demand and I think it is fair to say that one reason for healthy season tickets sales has been the lack of availability of casual tickets. This probably dates from the creation of the Jarrold stand when capacity was only 18K at a time of high demand when we got promoted in 2004. Since then it has been tough at times to get casual tickets. By way of illustration, as I live in London and work often on Saturdays at short notice I have had great difficulty in getting tickets as I can''t get in early as I don''t know if I am going to have a free saturday and when I do know they have often all gone. So I even considered trying to get a season ticket but the cost is not viable for the few times I can go. This factor should not be underestimated and if there were more casual tickets I bet you would see a drop in season ticket renewals. And that would be bad.

 

So a  little caution is needed, and on balance I think we only need another 2 or 3K seats or so to get to around 30K which to me is a good sustainable figure. 35K to me seems too much but the present capacity is just a little too tight to allow those who would like to go but either can''t afford or can''t commit to a season ticket to get in and show their support for the team. Should we get back to regularly being in the top half and demand stays healthy then we should reconsider the matter and it maybe that the 35K level becomes right. But right now I am not sure it is as we want the stadium to be full which by definition we need some fans to be disappointed. How many you leave disappointed is a ripe old question.

 

BTW, bearing in mind some of the stuff on this thread, if anyone wants to call me names based on any views in this post you are free to do so but I will not waste my time or dignify it by responding.

[Herman 9,764]

@Stig.

Although i agree with your points about City 1st, Steady on has been rude and agressive all through this thread and completely ignoring some very fair and valid points by posters like Ricardo,Purple etc.etc.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="Resident Canary Stig"]You really are, aren''t you Mungo? I thought, if anything - The Tottenham game would be a sellout. Much to my delight and surprise... it wasn''t! Far from it in fact. For once, the consumer stood back and disagreed with the product on offer. "In the current economic climate" who can afford to pay a silly amount for a cup game Norwich have not in recent times done well in. The lack of attendance was about sending a message to the board, not anything to do with support. Remove your head from your ar*se you fool.[/quote]

 

Stig, why do you come on here doing exactly what you have criticised others for. Opinions are opinions. Not facts. My opinion is the lack of attendance at the Spurs game sent a very different message to the board than the one you believe. £30 per seat was a 44% discount on the ticket prices. The Stoke game a few days later the lowest prices were £45 per ticket. What message would you take on board if you were considering finding finance of around £31m to build a new stand when the people you would be putting the club at risk for won''t even buy tickets discounted by 44% for a cup tie against Spurs?

 

Oh and to all you other precious posters, I''m quite willing to debate this opinion when I get back from Southampton. I''m not stropping off assuming I''m right. However I honestly believe the starting point for this debate really does have to be an acceptance of the 31m needed to finance the project.

 

 

 

 

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="Resident Canary Stig"] Sorry Steady On, but I don''t think these old fools can be reasoned with.[/quote]

All we have heard from "Steady On" has been abuse and his comparing

Pinkun poster''s to idiots on Canary Call is hardly conducive to reasoned

argument. The facts on stadium expansion are those stated by the board

at the recent AGM. There were a number of questions on this subject and differing views were expressed. His claims that the figures given were plucked from

the air is not going to cut any mustard with those of us heard the discussion and what the

Chairman said. Therefore until we are presented with a cogent argument

to the contrary and in the face of this factual vacuum then there is

nothing much to debate.

[Bill 1,788]

But there is. What do the board know ?

 

How do they know if the season ticket waiting list has dropped ? Have they sat down and worked out how much a new stand would cost ?

 

Have the actually asked players if they would take a pay cut because we are building a new stand, or even asked other clubs if they would take a lower transfer fee because we are building a new stand ?

 

I bet they haven''t even thought of only having one youth team instead of having so many. Have they thought how much they could save by doing that ? Do they know that there wouldn''t be the need for so many coaches either and we wouldn''t be producing all these unwanted goalkeepers ?

 

I bet the answer is No.

 

I bet they don''t even listen to people like Stig who has been to at least a half dozen games, or poor old steady on who hasn''t been to Carrow Road for so long he can''t remember where the stands are. They don''t even ask if us season ticket holders would be happy to stump up more money to help. I bet if they asked the hundreds and hundreds on the waiting list if they would pay an extra few hundred a year if they could have a season ticket they would bite the clubs hands off.

 

Someone should tell the board that twenty years is not a long time and they can go back to spending money on their pet projects like players coaches and acadamies.

 

What has the board ever done for us ?

 

 

[Sasco 0]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Resident Canary Stig"] Sorry Steady On, but I don''t think these old fools can be reasoned with.[/quote]

All we have heard from "Steady On" has been abuse and his comparing

Pinkun poster''s to idiots on Canary Call is hardly conducive to reasoned

argument. The facts on stadium expansion are those stated by the board

at the recent AGM. There were a number of questions on this subject and differing views were expressed. His claims that the figures given were plucked from

the air is not going to cut any mustard with those of us heard the discussion and what the

Chairman said. Therefore until we are presented with a cogent argument

to the contrary and in the face of this factual vacuum then there is

nothing much to debate. [/quote]

Ha ha, I have so often read posts from Pink''un MB posters describing Canary Call callers as idiots and morons that I wonder why these posters bother listening to CC at all. It would be great to hear a caller on Canary Call turn the tables by describing to a baffled Paul McVeigh Pink''un posters as puffed up, self-opionated, mutton heads........... although Ricardo I know that is not what you meant and of course this does not of course apply to you.

[Indy 3,300]

After weeks away for work and holiday what a refreshing change, two side of the opinion and 15 pages of opinions degenerating into childish playground name calling and by the same people again.

 

It is quite simple really, there is a need for a bigger capacity, is it at 35,000 or closer to 32,000? Expansion will come but it might not be at Carrow Road, given the cost and communications links to Colney this would be at a higher risk and would only be considered after an extended stay in the premiership.

 

In the short term is it worth building up Carrow Road to 32,000 by modifying or rebuilding the City stand? Well in the grand scheme of things, 20 million is not a big amount of money given we have repaid over 16 million in three seasons. As for the argument of borrowing this money and paying interest, well some of the cost could well be borrowed but surely the board could use some of the additional TV money from a couple more seasons in the premiership, sponsorship and season ticket money. Of course there is no way the board would consider this unless we can survive this season and probably not for at least three seasons after that, but it would be feasible to start planning for such an event which I’m sure the board are!

 

Would we fill the ground if we had a 32,000 seater, probably not every game, but more than likely we would certainly have 10 to 12 games each year at full capacity, plastic fans as some refer to them to watch the likes of Chelsea, Man U etc. But people do forget that is was in the early 2000’s where we only had crowds between 13,000 – 16,000, with a capacity of 22,000. It was our 2004 season which lit the fuse for the recent season brilliant support.

 

I agree with that we need to expand, but it has to be at a controlled manner. Additionally we need to invest in the players, training and development, so more quality coaching, scouting etc. and this all costs money too, balancing the books is going to be the name of the game.

 

Last I hope that if we become an established club, the board keep the players wages under control, we have seen with the likes of Villa and Bolton just how quickly debt can rise by paying too much in wages. I would rather see younger hungry players on lower wages even if this means being a yo-yo club than pay the millions to the likes of Barton’s of this world.

 

Best not to forget we are Norwich City, not Man U, we are not little or small but we are not giants in the game either.

[Steady On... 0]

You are a disgrace steady on with views like that and you don''t deserve your season ticket in the city stand.

[Steady On... 0]

*city first

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

Has anyone explored the option of testing the market by the provision of temporary seating above the existing City stand? Say 2-3,000?

 

I bet if the club put out a well-structured invitation to interested parties they would get some fascinating responses. Times have moved on. And technology these days can provide amazing answers.

 

None but ourselves can free our minds!  [;)]

 

OTBC

 

 

 

 

[Steady On... 0]

Let me take this one city first...

poppycock Bly blahblahblahblah! "lala land" blahahahahah!!

There''s the question of the road! And the "displaced 4000", I

Mean! There''d be bovril everywhere! And it''d cost 45 bazillion Zimbabwean dollars!

I actually think its a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest and certainly a possibility. Glad that someone''s finally after looking for solutions rather than just slamming the issue and putting in place a system of if you weren''t in Munich to see us beat bayern you aren''t coming in.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Seeing as McNally squeezed as many seats as possible in every nook and cranny in Carrow Road, if there is a cost-effective way of adding more seats he will find it.

 

Again I think it is worth mentioning that no one on this thread is against having an expanded stadium - just many (myself included) think a cost of £31m is prohibative at this point in time. Every penny coming into the club at the moment needs to go towards the first-team squad - when the contracts of existing players start to come to an end I''m sure their agents will see the extra TV revenue as fair game, as will any new players coming into the club, as well as the clubs we are buying the players from.

 

With teams like Southampton spending £12m on a single player or QPR paying a goal keeper around £80k a week how long do you seriously think Norwich can survive in the Premier League without increased investment on the pitch? The additional TV money will be eaten up very quickly just trying to keep pace with those around us, and 4,000 extra seats will not win Norwich any football matches. Look how long it has taken the club to emerge from the shadow of the loans for the existing stands, do we really want to go through that again?

 

I don''t think Delia has the resource to keep the club afloat whilst it is being dragged down by the debt of seating that will only be used occasionally.

 

 

 

 

[Indy 3,300]

"With teams like Southampton spending £12m on a single player or QPR paying a goal keeper around £80k a week how long do you seriously think Norwich can survive in the Premier League without increased investment on the pitch? The additional TV money will be eaten up very quickly just trying to keep pace with those around us, and 4,000 extra seats will not win Norwich any football matches. Look how long it has taken the club to emerge from the shadow of the loans for the existing stands, do we really want to go through that again? "

 

Bethnal, that''a the sadest staement of all, but very true! The people who love the club and want to watch the game live will have to give way to pay for multi million pound players who in reality would dump the club for more money!

 

The spirit of football has been lost to money and why not just close the ground to fans, save cost and show the game on TV only?

[Bill 1,788]

"Again I think it is worth mentioning that no one on this thread is against having an expanded stadium"

 

mention all you like Bethnal, but if someone is a troll with a strong dislike of our club it will be simply ignored

 

as will the fact that even if we maintain the prices as they are and sell out ALL the extra 4000 seats for EVERY game, that will only generate around £1.9m* at the very best - not even enough to meet in interest payments on the loan

 

what this ragbag of happy clappies, trolls and glory hunters have not told us (after 16 pages)  is from what budget the money should come to subsidise these seats

 

 

 

* based on club accounts 2011/12

 

 

 

 

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

As someone in the know, Bethnal, when we wipe out our external debts what sort of exclusive club will we be joining?

 

I have always understood WBA to be a solvent club, but how many of the others are?

 

Okay, so we owe money to our directors but that pales when set aside what other clubs owe to their owners or through their owners as in the case of the Glaziers for example.

 

This thread is about creating something tangible for the future; and I accept the counter arguments, whereas in the case of many clubs it could be about borrowing to buy high cost players and borrowing to pay the salaries.

 

The worrying thing for me is: unless we spend the new revenues on players and agents we will not survive in this league; that might be a reality. But, in normal life it would mean a healthy bank balance and investment revenues. I suppose that is why survival this season would equal each of the previous three seasons because we are witholding player money in order to pay off external debt.

 

If we don''t build a new stand I could accept it. If we don''t invest in players while also putting monies aside for future rainy days I would find that unacceptible. But this seems to be the dilemma of British football.

[Bill 1,788]

"This thread is about creating something tangible for the future"

 

A huge debt that might well be crippling a few seasons down the line, and will hang around our necks for a further 15 years.

 

Of course we are locked in a sickening merry go round where every time the TV money goes up, the wages and transfer fees go up. That won''t be addressed by us unilaterily opting out.

 

It would be fine if we could use those extra milions and millions to subsidise ticket sales. Get casual tickets down to £20 or less and there would be no trouble filling a 35,000 stadium. Whilst the millions come in, the money would be available to do that. It would however leave us at a disadvantage to other clubs, as we divert money away from the playing budget.

 

What happens if that disadvantage leads to relegation ? Where then the money to subsidise tickets ? Could we seriously say to fans that due to relegation we are going to have to put up prices, as the subsidy money has gone ?

 

Which begs the question that is constantly (and conveniently) being avoided. Not, can we sell 32,000 or 35,000 tickets  -but how much will that subsidy be and could we afford it if we went back the Championship ?

 

It is ok to sit and slag off the board, attack genuine fans who understand the position we are curently in, but maybe it''s time for those behind these attacks either put up or shut up.

 

 

 

 

[Stig 0]

I think, more than anything, the topic of the stadium being expanded has become far more complicated and convoluted than it need be. As I see it, we are really under no pressure to expand the stadium. If a report were to be on Look East about NCFC not meeting the demands of it''s fan base, there would probably be some substance - but as far as I can see there is no one being left out in the cold on match day.

The risks of expanding far outweigh the rewards, and I think another season or two of beating teams like Manchester United and Arsenal at FCR would go along way to drawing in the crowd that would then begin to fill in another 4000+ seats.

As for people attacking the board and genuine fans... I must say City1st most of your posts have been most derogatory of our club. Realistic, perhaps - but not kind words by any stretch of the imagination.

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

I don''t think I mentioned a ticket subsidy.

 

But as you mention it I would like to see structured prices that recognise young people and families. This was one of the things that blighted the Tottenham game; no pricing structure.

 

it wouldn''t make sense to discount tickets in the EPL due to TV money then expect to charge more for The Championship, so I don''t know where you got that  from, but I am in favour of schemes to encourage more young people to be able to attend our games. This is what previous generations have done, you stood in The Barclay and The River End.

 

But, being one of those rarities in society, a saver, I suppose I see things differently. But I would add that there is a balance to be struck.

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

I am definitely against expansion. I would be more than happy to see the capacity reduced. Playing in a three sided ground is exciting and I have many fond memories of gamrs with a hoarding as a backdrop.

Norwich City, a LOCAL team for LOCAL people.

Mungo

[Stig 0]

Mungo, you''ve resigned me to amusement...

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Resident Canary Stig"]I think, more than anything, the topic of the stadium being expanded has become far more complicated and convoluted than it need be. As I see it, we are really under no pressure to expand the stadium. If a report were to be on Look East about NCFC not meeting the demands of it''s fan base, there would probably be some substance - but as far as I can see there is no one being left out in the cold on match day. The risks of expanding far outweigh the rewards, and I think another season or two of beating teams like Manchester United and Arsenal at FCR would go along way to drawing in the crowd that would then begin to fill in another 4000+ seats. As for people attacking the board and genuine fans... I must say City1st most of your posts have been most derogatory of our club. Realistic, perhaps - but not kind words by any stretch of the imagination.[/quote]

 

eh ?

 

perhaps you could point out one, just the one, as an example