Stadium expansion?

[lappinitup 629]

For those clamouring for stadium expansion or having a new stadium built I think it''s worth remembering our not so distant past and Robert Chase. In February 1994 he said.......

 

"My first objective was to get the club on a secure financial footing. That has been done. Next we had to improve the ground. When that is complete we will be able to concentrate on the third objective, which is to invest in the team and put some silverware on the table."

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-do-norwich-need-a-sales-drive-to-survive-after-18-uplifting-months-norwich-disappointed-their-fans-this-week-when-they-again-sold-one-of-their-best-players--ruel-fox-to-newcastle-trevor-haylett-canvassed-interested-opinion-including-the-clubs-pragmatic-chairman-1391801.html

 

He sold his shares to Geofrey Watling two years later in May 1996 and this is how it was reported at the time......

 

"Chase took over after the club''s entire board of directors had resigned following a row over the rebuilding of Carrow Road''s main stand. But in recent seasons he has come under intense pressure from disgruntled fans who have accused him of being more interested in bricks and mortar than football.

While Carrow Road is almost unrecognisable from 10 years ago and is regarded as one of the most modern stadiums in the First Division, City''s standards on the pitch have slumped dramatically. From the position of title-chasers and Uefa Cup conquerors of Bayern Munich in 1994, Norwich have slipped out of the Premiership and are now languishing near the bottom of the First Division.

Mike Walker, the manager who led the Canaries into Europe, left for Everton amid claims that Chase was unwilling to reward him fully with an improved contract and funds to finance team building. John Deehan and Gary Megson failed to stop Norwich from slipping out of the top flight and Martin O''Neill took over in the summer. But O''Neill walked out to join Leicester in acrimonious circumstances in November, accusing Chase of lacking ambition."

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/chase-sells-out-as-norwich-chairman-1345523.html

 

Chase was wrong then to spend money on the stadium and that''s why I think it would be wrong to do it now. If we did and then suffered relegation, I feel with the gulf between the Premier League and the rest, there may never be a way back.

[Steady On... 0]

Wow why do you guys KEEP banging on about this

Stadium expansion will happen, sooner or later, as part of the general direction of growth at the club.

I swear to god most people on here would want us to decrease capacity so it''s "more special" for them or less "plastics" turn up. Makes me laugh, I''m guessing these same people want stannah stairlifts to the upper Barclay and complimentary ear trumpets.

Stadium expansion is a NON-ISSUE it will happen, when it happens.

[Aggy 758]

With this current group of directors, I am quite confident that it will only happen when not only is the club able to afford it in terms of actually having the money, but also only when we have enough money after ample improvements to the squad. When/if we''re an established prem side, with a good few years of prem money stowed away and a few quality signings behind us, then we might expand. Or we might expand little by little with whatever is left over after signings.

I don''t for one minute think that expansion will come either at the expense of the club''s general well being in terms of debt and administration, nor at the great expense of playing staff.

[nutty nigel 7,558]

[quote user="Aggy"]With this current group of directors, I am quite confident that it will only happen when not only is the club able to afford it in terms of actually having the money, but also only when we have enough money after ample improvements to the squad. When/if we''re an established prem side, with a good few years of prem money stowed away and a few quality signings behind us, then we might expand. Or we might expand little by little with whatever is left over after signings. I don''t for one minute think that expansion will come either at the expense of the club''s general well being in terms of debt and administration, nor at the great expense of playing staff.[/quote]

 

My money''s on getting the new stand free in a box of cornflakes...

 

[;)]

 

[kingsway 94]

That is pretty much the truth Aggy although the option to expand bit by bit is not an option now I think. Thats cause since the summer of 2010 the club have increased the capacity bit by bit by 1400 just by adding a few rows in all the stands, addign seats above the exits where they''d previously been empty voids in the Jarold and rearranging the aisles in the N&P upper tier.

 

The only small increase in capacity would be temporary seats in front of the Hotel, something which was meant to have happened this summer. Aparently some shareholders of the Hotel wern''t in favour which seems strange cause more people going to the football would surely be beneficial to the Hotel, which aparently has been losingmoney in recent times!

 

After this could the club add more rows in the frotnm of the stands?

Probably not I''d suggest cause the club would have already done it?

 

I remain a firm advocate of increasing the capacity because our average stats of the last decade show we could fill a 30,000+ capacity Carrow Road more often than not, especially in the Premiership and doing so would help make the club bigger and better. I think the best way to do this would be to construct an upper tier above the Jarold stand cause this could be done without any reduction int he capcity while the job was being done!

 

I fully understand the board holding back from redeveloping one of the stands until we are debt free and have sustained ourselves in the top flight for longer!

[N city till I die 0]

Mcnally saqid it will be expanded if we stayed up last season, im sure of it? can someone confirm this? surely it will be expanded if we stay up this season, it has to be, I want a season ticket !

[nutty nigel 7,558]

It won''t be buddy!

 

Are you on the list for a season ticket?

 

 

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="N city til I die"]Mcnally saqid it will be expanded if we stayed up last season, im sure of it? can someone confirm this? surely it will be expanded if we stay up this season, it has to be, I want a season ticket ![/quote]Things have moved on since then. I wouldn''t expect anything to happen in the short term and by that I mean 3-5 years.

[TIL 1010 4,777]

[quote user="kingsway"]

The only small increase in capacity would be temporary seats in front of the Hotel, something which was meant to have happened this summer. Aparently some shareholders of the Hotel wern''t in favour which seems strange cause more people going to the football would surely be beneficial to the Hotel, which aparently has been losingmoney in recent times!

[/quote]

Apart from Mr McNally saying the club were looking into the possibility of putting seats in the hotel corner the reference to shareholders objecting to this is news to me so can you enlarge on this and also the source to the hotel losing money ?

 

[TIL 1010 4,777]

[quote user="kingsway"]

The only small increase in capacity would be temporary seats in front of the Hotel, something which was meant to have happened this summer. Aparently some shareholders of the Hotel wern''t in favour which seems strange cause more people going to the football would surely be beneficial to the Hotel, which aparently has been losingmoney in recent times!

[/quote]

Apart from Mr McNally saying the club were looking into the possibility of putting seats in the hotel corner the reference to shareholders objecting to this is news to me so can you enlarge on this and also the source to the hotel losing money ?

 

[PurpleCanary 5,578]

[quote user="kingsway"]

That is pretty much the truth Aggy although the option to expand bit by bit is not an option now I think. Thats cause since the summer of 2010 the club have increased the capacity bit by bit by 1400 just by adding a few rows in all the stands, addign seats above the exits where they''d previously been empty voids in the Jarold and rearranging the aisles in the N&P upper tier.

 

The only small increase in capacity would be temporary seats in front of the Hotel, something which was meant to have happened this summer. Aparently some shareholders of the Hotel wern''t in favour which seems strange cause more people going to the football would surely be beneficial to the Hotel, which aparently has been losingmoney in recent times!

 

After this could the club add more rows in the frotnm of the stands?

Probably not I''d suggest cause the club would have already done it?

 

I remain a firm advocate of increasing the capacity because our average stats of the last decade show we could fill a 30,000+ capacity Carrow Road more often than not, especially in the Premiership and doing so would help make the club bigger and better. I think the best way to do this would be to construct an upper tier above the Jarold stand cause this could be done without any reduction int he capcity while the job was being done!

 

I fully understand the board holding back from redeveloping one of the stands until we are debt free and have sustained ourselves in the top flight for longer!

[/quote]

 

This a crucial point. It cannot be done incrementally any more, as I understand it. It has to be a vastly expensive mega-project or nothing. The other point that may be overlooked is that until a year ago the directors we saying we HAD to increase capacity:

January 2010:  “If there is no major investor we have to make the club self-sustainable and in the Premier League we would have to have 35,000,”said McNally, adding that they would only consider expanding the stadium only after two consecutive years in the Premier League.“ Only then would it be a viable proposition,” he said. Bowkett added that they were confident there would be an extra 8,000 fans keen to see Premier League football.

October 2011: The pair [Bowkett and McNally] told the EDP the club hoped to begin work on turning Carrow Road into a 35,000-seat stadium “if we stay in the Premier League for three years”. McNally said the 35,000 figure would “produce a self-sustainable Premier League football club”, but the current capacity of 27,000 would not.

Has the extra money from the forthcoming TV deal meant those calculations no longer apply? It is possible but I have doubts, as expressed before, as to how much of that money will really stick with us.

PS. None of the above should be read as me advocating anything.

[N city till I die 0]

Surely the Geoffrey Watling stand needs to be expanded not the Jarrold!?

[kingsway 94]

["TIL 1010"]["kingsway"]

The only small increase in capacity would be temporary seats in front of the Hotel, something which was meant to have happened this summer. Aparently some shareholders of the Hotel wern''t in favour which seems strange cause more people going to the football would surely be beneficial to the Hotel, which aparently has been losingmoney in recent times!

 

Apart from Mr McNally saying the club were looking into the possibility of putting seats in the hotel corner the reference to shareholders objecting to this is news to me so can you enlarge on this and also the source to the hotel losing money ?

 

 

This is what Mcnally himself said on twitter a while back!

 

The Hotel losing money is something I heard on either here or on twitter so I wouldn''t bet my life on it!

 

Can someone confirm for definate that the reason we haven''t seen a temporary stand in front of the Hotel is cause some of the shareholders have been against it and that the Hotel lost money in recent times please!

[Bill 1,788]

"I remain a firm advocate of increasing the capacity because our average stats of the last decade show we could fill a 30,000+ capacity Carrow Road more often than not"

 

That is absolute nonsense, as we have not ever had a 30,000 plus capacity in the past decade. What we do know is that there were games last season that DID NOT sellout ! We have had to slash the tickets for the Wigan game - and the Spurs cup game also failed to deliver this capacity crowd, falling way way short of the capacity. game slike Stoke have failed to sellout.

 

It is idiotic to talk of ''being in favour''. I have spoken to no one or heard nothing that suggests that fans and club alike wouldn''t want a bigger stadium. However some recognise that it has to be paid for. As there are not enough fans willing to pay the price needed to cover the cost of a new stand, the money will have to come out of money that would be available for the footballing side of things. Now anyone can make a good argument about whether that is a good idea or not, WHILST WE ARE IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE. Place those debts on a club playing in the Championship and they become a massive burden. Leaving aside the logistics of moving fans, just tell us how we can guarantee we will remain in the Premier League for 20 years.

 

It would be fine if we had a board populated by the kind of simpletons that bleat on here about how hard done by they are. A board that could lumber us with a massive debt, collect the bonuses, the bu gger off when we are left facing the problems of how to fund a fight back in the PL while still having to meet those crippling debt repayments. We need to look to the long term development and growth of the club, not the short term appeasement of a few glory hunters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[basil brush 0]

While the Jarrold Stand can have another tier of 4,000 created, it will be the much derided City Stand that will be redeveloped first - That has been in the pipeline even when were in League One according to club officials. Another two seasons in this league and it should happen.

The club has sold itself short on revenue from seats for many years, so as well as the financial benefits, we may also be able to attract more players who might prefer to play to 35,000 every week, then say, choose to play at Villa Park... :)

[York Canary 28]

I thought the hotel corner would be the obvious choice in the short-term perhaps as well, but not sure what''s happening there

[lake district canary 0]

It''s simple. Expanding the stadium is the kind of thing that people on the board like to think/talk about because its something to talk about.    Fans like to talk about it - for the same reason.  In both cases they think  it would be "bigging up" the club.  But,  this is not necessarily the case. Actually, at its worst, its nothing short of an ego trip.

We get an almost full stadium every week.   But despite that, casual supporters can get tickets.  I have had no problem getting casual tickets, sometimes even on the day of the match.  This does not suggest there is a great demand out there.  

If we want to make Carrow Rd a better stadium, the hotel situation needs to be sorted.   Buy the hotel, rebuild it with full seating in the corner, either keeping it as a hotel, or converting the remaining space into flats or office space, or even retail.   You would make the stadium a 30,000 stadium, improve the atmosphere and generate income from the hotel space.  

That way you increase the capacity,  you don''t get vastly into debt financing a whole new stand, and generate possible income from the hotel or whatever space is left after the conversion.  

Just my simplistic solution, but sometimes the simple answer is the best.   Buying the hotel may not be possible, but on the face of it - converting that corner of the stadium  would be enough addition of seats to supply any likely demand.    If you question my logic, think about the Spurs match and the empty seats.

 

[Stig 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]It''s simple. Expanding the stadium is the kind of thing that people on the board like to think/talk about because its something to talk about.    Fans like to talk about it - for the same reason.  In both cases they think  it would be "bigging up" the club.  But,  this is not necessarily the case. Actually, at its worst, its nothing short of an ego trip.

We get an almost full stadium every week.   But despite that, casual supporters can get tickets.  I have had no problem getting casual tickets, sometimes even on the day of the match.  This does not suggest there is a great demand out there.  

If we want to make Carrow Rd a better stadium, the hotel situation needs to be sorted.   Buy the hotel, rebuild it with full seating in the corner, either keeping it as a hotel, or converting the remaining space into flats or office space, or even retail.   You would make the stadium a 30,000 stadium, improve the atmosphere and generate income from the hotel space.  

That way you increase the capacity,  you don''t get vastly into debt financing a whole new stand, and generate possible income from the hotel or whatever space is left after the conversion.  

Just my simplistic solution, but sometimes the simple answer is the best.   Buying the hotel may not be possible, but on the face of it - converting that corner of the stadium  would be enough addition of seats to supply any likely demand.    If you question my logic, think about the Spurs match and the empty seats.

 [/quote]

The Spurs match and the empty seats was something completely different, we all know that...

As for the stadium expansion, I couldn''t give a toss about it until at the very least we are an Everton style permanent fixture in the premier league. Until such a time, stadium expansion is VERY expensive and I would rather see (and am glad to know) that money go into the most important part... football! 

Arguments for keeping the stadium small to make Norwich feel "exclusive" is ludicrous and pathetic and anyone saying as such needs to reevaluate their position as a supporter of a premier league club. Go support your local village boys team for exclusivity. Equally as ludicrous is wanting to push through an expansion as the most pressing issue for NCFC.

[Bws Cat 0]

This thread is an invitation for Tom Cavendish and his little "plans".

Most likely made from the mouths of children high on acid

[Chelmsford Canary 0]

Personally - I think like most they should expand. However, I don''t want to cripple us into further debt after just about losing the previous debt.

I work in construction, and currently prices are still relatively low, due to recession.

We should be working up drawings, getting it through planning, so when we do decide to start (end of a season) we are ready to go. No brainer really.

I also think - unlike other we should build/expand to a capacity that will ensure we have capacity for the long term future. We have sold out our stadium for last 5 years plus even in dark days of league 1.

Directors say they want to go up to 35,000. I think we should look at going to 40,000, and I have worked out how this could work phasing the construction over years, and not go below our current capacity.

What you don''t want to do is build up to 35k, and then find out we fill capacity at that level, and go through further work 5-6 years later...at a higher construction cost.

No one will do or agree with this, as they will consider it as too much money!

[nutty nigel 7,558]

[quote user="Chelmsford Canary"]Personally - I think like most they should expand. However, I don''t want to cripple us into further debt after just about losing the previous debt. I work in construction, and currently prices are still relatively low, due to recession. We should be working up drawings, getting it through planning, so when we do decide to start (end of a season) we are ready to go. No brainer really. I also think - unlike other we should build/expand to a capacity that will ensure we have capacity for the long term future. We have sold out our stadium for last 5 years plus even in dark days of league 1. Directors say they want to go up to 35,000. I think we should look at going to 40,000, and I have worked out how this could work phasing the construction over years, and not go below our current capacity. What you don''t want to do is build up to 35k, and then find out we fill capacity at that level, and go through further work 5-6 years later...at a higher construction cost. No one will do or agree with this, as they will consider it as too much money![/quote]

 

I doubt that''s true.

 

 

[Steady On... 0]

Expansion will happen soonish and there''s not an awful lot people opposed to it can do. Possibly try and be funny at the agm Asking a question and fail brutally? One or two of you MUST be in that exclusive "AGM tumbleweed club"

[nutty nigel 7,558]

Trouble is the board seem opposed to it. Bowkett''s buddy''s experience has appeared to have put him off bigtime.

 

 

[York Canary 28]

Every spare penny should be invested in the squad and staff as it currently is and at least for a few years until we''re much more comfortable in this league. If there''s an inexpensive short-term plan (like the hotel corner or something) then that''s great, but the football is the most important thing. We''r not exactly languishing behind other clubs in terms of capacity and we don''t have massive wages (yet) so we would do better to try and guarantee Premiership status and the big money that comes with it

[Steady On... 0]

Guaranteeing premier league status is impossible. Ask Leeds or newcastle or any team that''s fallen over the years.

When it''s the right moment to expand, we will. My bet is the next few years regardless of what league we are in and it''s McNally that is driving it. He''s ambitious unlike some, thank god.

[nutty nigel 7,558]

[quote user="Steady On..."]Guaranteeing premier league status is impossible. Ask Leeds or newcastle or any team that''s fallen over the years. When it''s the right moment to expand, we will. My bet is the next few years regardless of what league we are in and it''s McNally that is driving it. He''s ambitious unlike some, thank god.[/quote]

 

Thank the Lord someone''s nailed it down at long last[Y]

 

 

[Stig 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Steady On..."]Guaranteeing premier league status is impossible. Ask Leeds or newcastle or any team that''s fallen over the years. When it''s the right moment to expand, we will. My bet is the next few years regardless of what league we are in and it''s McNally that is driving it. He''s ambitious unlike some, thank god.[/quote]

 

Thank the Lord someone''s nailed it down at long last[Y]

 

 

[/quote]

...

The fact it will "be the next few years" was never in doubt. Unless I''ve missed the sarcasm in your post... which I sincerely hope I have.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

Why is it necessary a bad thing to expand the stadium and have a bit of spare capacity? I don''t understand the logic in people pointing out that the Wigan game didn''t sellout, when we probably could have sold 35,000+ for ManU and ManC games? We see empty seats on MOTD every week because surely it''s better to have a few extra seats for the big games rather than having disappointed fans who can''t get into the stadium to watch us play?I understand the large investment involved, but don''t necessarily understand the point of view that we shouldn''t expend the stadium based on a couple of games that didn''t 100% sellout?

[Steady On... 0]

I''m pretty sure that there are people on here that don''t want expansion of carrow road out of fear of change. It''s like when someone suggested putting the toilet INSIDE the house. They made a huff and puff noise and asked "but it''s always been outside, why would we change that?"

[Bill 1,788]

"The club has sold itself short on revenue from seats for many years, so as well as the financial benefits "

 

eh ! ! !

 

Then clearly you have NOT been following what the club has stated, so

 

as simple as it can be spelt out

 

The cost of building the stand will NOT be met by the ticket sales it provides.

 

Therefore to pay for the new seats money must be taken from the football budget

 

Spare capacity will simply increase that amount of subsidy

 

If we are relegated the repayments of the debt would most likely be crippling

 

THAT IS THE BOARDS VIEW - BASED ON THE FIGURES THEY SEE WEEK IN WEEK OUT

 

Those figures show a need of 91% occupancy. The Wigan and Stoke games have shown that there is no chance of that being achieved, likewise there are NOT another 8000 fans out there who will make it financially viable.

 

NO ONE is against extra capacity.

 

But none of the numpties have explained how it is to be paid for.