James McClean decides not to wear a poppy

[CambridgeCanary 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="The 12th Devine"]Let''s not forget where Crabby came in on this thread – he said: "Personally, as an ex forces man , I am disgusted at this." [/quote]

 

And this was why I eneterd the thread and asked why.

 

 

[/quote]

 

I agree.  Crabby has tried to resile from this to interested but he said "disgusted".  Why pick on one footballer?  I''ve spent most of today in Norwich City centre and my impression was that about 50:50 between wearers and non wearers.   That''s a few thousand more for you to be disgusted at Crabby or do you just direct your disgust at footballers?

[lake district canary 0]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]What complete nonsense.  There is absolutely such a thing as freedom of speech.  You saw it yesterday when the EDL marched through Norwich, and a counter-protest was staged.  You saw it where James McClean chose not to wear a poppy.  You see it on this very website where the club''s owners and players are vilified and libelled on a daily basis.If you don''t feel comfortable saying you "don''t like gays", if you don''t feel comfortable saying "some English cities are less English than downtown Delhi", if you don''t feel able to say "I don''t like the Welsh" then IMO that''s more to do with the fact you fear you might be perceived as a racist homophobe and less to do with the fact you could say any of those things in public if you wanted to.[/quote]

The freedom of speech I have now are restricted by other people''s views about what is acceptable.   That is not freedom of speech.  I can say what I like - but can be ostricised or even arrested if I say something in public that twenty year ago would not have been a problem.   That is not the same level of freedom of speech - it is less.    If what our parents grandparents fought is "freedom of speech" - well I don''t believe things are getting better on that front.    That''s all.  

By the way, I''ve nothing against gays, or down town Delhi, but the Welsh.......................

[crabbycanary 2]

Hang on. McLean decided (for reasons that are being speculated on here) not to wear a Poppy. I reacted by saying that I was disgusted by this action. People are naive to think that a high profile person has no more influence on things, than the man in the street

The wearing of the Poppy . It is obvious that McLean has his reasons, but no one has asked him for those reasons. I am putting the question out there.Are Sunderland naive to let it go without talking to him first, explaining (as if it really needed to) the implications, questions that would arise etc of someone in a high profile position not to wear one?

McLean didn''t want to wear a Poppy, yes that is up to him ultimately, but at least have the respect for others (no, I don''t mean me btw) to come out and say why. He WANTED to make a statement, but didn''t want to back it up, and explain it to the watching World, and there are a lot of people with their eyes on McLean.

IF, as stated, that McLean did not wear a Poppy but did respect that 2 minutes silence, is that a contradiction? Are they not representing the same thing?

This next bit is a possible scenario, but in no way, is anything I definately know about (except the Cavan story)

He MIGHT have family reasons behind his decision, he might have political reasons influencing his decision, I just don''t know. Didn''t Wes wear one yesterday? Didn''t a lot of Irish players do the same? They may, of course, not have the same history as McLean (IF that is the reason behind all this), and he may feel a lot stronger about this than Wes, et al. The different religions of County Cavan in Ireland have got together after all these years, to be ''as one'' They have put their differences aside, and are remembering the fallen.

IF (a very big IF) that is the reason that McLean has decided not to wear one, then I would urge him and his family to work through this, as others in a similar situation have been and are. There have been some innocent people taken from this World by the wrong actions of others in conflict, but the Poppy is a general symbol of remembering the Fallen over generations, not representing a particular ''battle''.

In all honesty, it would be ideal that the Poppy never came to be used, because that would have meant there had been no conflicts, and people could have led a long and healthy existence, without life being cut short..

[lake district canary 0]

The problem is that the wearing of a poppy is almost compulsory if you are in  the public eye.     This is institutionalised  toeing the line.   Credit to MacLean, whatever his reasons for not wearing one.    As with other things of this type - its what you think that matters, not what anyone else thinks.  Try telling that to the media though.............................

[Yellow Wal 314]

But is this the lack of freedom that Lake District Canary speaks of?

If the wearing of poppies in Norwich was 50-50 today I would imagine the 50% wearing their poppies would feel ''disgusted'' and look down on those who were not.

On the other hand the 50% who were not wearing their poppies would not have bad feelings towards those who were.

I am restricted in my language if not my thoughts. My language could make me seem racist even though my thoughts never will.

I can think of a person and descriptively think of him as being a pa*i or as being black. I''m now no longer sure which terms I can write or say, such is my restriction of freedom. In my thoughts I have no racist feelings at all, (having worked closely with a boss from Pakistan and one from the Caribbean) but, I would suggest,my dilemma is shared by many.

Our freedoms are being eroded, we all now feel we must be so careful when we write or say anything in case it is misconstrued.

[Redders Right Foot 22]

but CC - WHY should he be asked.

he has broken no law, nor his own moral code

he is human for Christs sake, and a footballer, not a politician, super hero, or tv actor.

he has the rights to his privacy. he doesn''t have to account himself for anything he has done within the laws of the land nor the game.

it is his choice to wear it, and his alone to decide whether or not he wants to discuss his decision. whether or not you think he is an influential person is neither here or there. he should not have to defend himself to anyone over his choice of match kit that was provided to him.

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

All war is abhorrent.In every war there are men (and women) who go off to fight for their countries.It really makes my skin crawl when I see British people almost "prioritising" British lives above those of the "foreign lot". I understand why people  do it but for me I think people should remember that whilst it''s sad for the British families there are families all over the world who have lost people as a result of war. Nobody should ever have to give their lives for a country in a war against another country. Certain leaders have a lot to answer for.The concept of war is disgusting.

[Aggy 758]

[quote user="crabbycanary"]McLean didn''t want to wear a Poppy, yes that is up to him ultimately, but at least have the respect for others (no, I don''t mean me btw) to come out and say why. He WANTED to make a statement, but didn''t want to back it up, and explain it to the watching World, and there are a lot of people with their eyes on McLean.

............ the Poppy is a general symbol of remembering the Fallen over generations, not representing a particular ''battle''. [/quote]

Respect for others by coming out and saying why? Why would that show respect for others? Showing respect for others would be to let them get on with what they want to do - which is exactly what McLean has done. He has respected other people''s right to wear the poppy, he just doesn''t want to wear one himself. He doesn''t need to justify himself to anyone else.

More importantly, why would people be offended by it? The point of the poppies is surely for reflection on and remembrance of those people who gave their lives for the country. I personally couldn''t care less what other people want to reflect on or remember. Now, burning poppies is something that I feel people should be free to do if they wish, but I would see it as disrespectful and lacking in taste, because it''s going too far. McClean hasn''t burnt any poppies, he''s not spoken out against anyone who wants to wear them, he''s simply let other people wear them, he''s let other people reflect upon and remember who and what they want to, and his kept quiet whilst they do so. He need not give any reason for doing so, and has carried out his decision not to do so in a respectful and tasteful way - he''s just chosen not to wear one and left it at that.

I will agree that people are likely to ask why he hasn''t worn one, because of his high profile position - and I accept and support their right to ask him. However, I also accept and support McClean''s right not to wear one if he doesn''t want to. As long as he is letting me wear one if I want and isn''t speaking out against me doing so, I couldn''t really care less whether he wants to wear one or not. 

[nutty nigel 7,555]

[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]All war is abhorrent.

In every war there are men (and women) who go off to fight for their countries.

It really makes my skin crawl when I see British people almost "prioritising" British lives above those of the "foreign lot". I understand why people  do it but for me I think people should remember that whilst it''s sad for the British families there are families all over the world who have lost people as a result of war.

Nobody should ever have to give their lives for a country in a war against another country. Certain leaders have a lot to answer for.

The concept of war is disgusting.
[/quote]

 

The poppy is a mark of respect and you like me can prioritise whoever you are showing respect to. It''s not a badge that puts you in a certain group of people although many see it that way.

 

My thoughts always go first to my Grandad because he was in the trenches in WW1, was badly hurt, left for dead, but obviously came home. Eventually. He didn''t talk about it much but I know he remembered friend and foe on this day. It''s nobody elses business who you wish to remember and who your poppy is a mark of respect to.

 

 

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]All war is abhorrent.In every war there are men (and women) who go off to fight for their countries.It really makes my skin crawl when I see British people almost "prioritising" British lives above those of the "foreign lot". I understand why people  do it but for me I think people should remember that whilst it''s sad for the British families there are families all over the world who have lost people as a result of war. Nobody should ever have to give their lives for a country in a war against another country. Certain leaders have a lot to answer for.The concept of war is disgusting. [/quote]

 

The poppy is a mark of respect and you like me can prioritise whoever you are showing respect to. It''s not a badge that puts you in a certain group of people although many see it that way.

 

My thoughts always go first to my Grandad because he was in the trenches in WW1, was badly hurt, left for dead, but obviously came home. Eventually. He didn''t talk about it much but I know he remembered friend and foe on this day. It''s nobody elses business who you wish to remember and who your poppy is a mark of respect to.

 

 

[/quote]The greatest of respect to your Grandad, Mr Nutty. Maybe it''s because I dont know anyone who has fought in war or not but I just choose to remember that there are brave people on both sides in wars.

[crabbycanary 2]

It is obvious to all that this subject is quite emotive for me , and is something I feel very strongly about. McLean feels very strong about his decision not to wear a shirt with one on.

It is the Royal British Legion that will miss out, in a small way, as they won''t have his shirt to auction off.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]All war is abhorrent.

In every war there are men (and women) who go off to fight for their countries.

It really makes my skin crawl when I see British people almost "prioritising" British lives above those of the "foreign lot". I understand why people  do it but for me I think people should remember that whilst it''s sad for the British families there are families all over the world who have lost people as a result of war.

Nobody should ever have to give their lives for a country in a war against another country. Certain leaders have a lot to answer for.

The concept of war is disgusting.
[/quote]

 

The poppy is a mark of respect and you like me can prioritise whoever you are showing respect to. It''s not a badge that puts you in a certain group of people although many see it that way.

 

My thoughts always go first to my Grandad because he was in the trenches in WW1, was badly hurt, left for dead, but obviously came home. Eventually. He didn''t talk about it much but I know he remembered friend and foe on this day. It''s nobody elses business who you wish to remember and who your poppy is a mark of respect to.

 

 

[/quote]

The greatest of respect to your Grandad, Mr Nutty.

Maybe it''s because I dont know anyone who has fought in war or not but I just choose to remember that there are brave people on both sides in wars.


[/quote]

I know buddy. That''s the whole point. The poppy''s about who you want to remember and show respect to. It won''t be my grandad specifically but it could be everyone who lost life and limb in any conflict if you wanted it to be. And nobody has the right to tell you any different.

 

[Redders Right Foot 22]

they will still have the poppy shirt, it will just not of been worn, I''m assuming.

if it makes you feel better, upon my return to the UK, I will do my best to donate what I can to make up for nasty man McLeans selfish actions.

[Old Shuck 185]

I''d be interested to learn if the BBC have made it mandatory for their presenters to all wear a poppy. More to the point, if they have, then under what strange draconian power have they enforced it, and, bearing in mind, it cannot possibly be a breach of employment law, nor a condition of same to wear one, why all the presenters agree to do so-of course, they may all, en-masse, choose to do so and it is, entirely, down of their own freewill.

 

I wonder if they expect radio presenters to wear one as well? If they do not, that makes the fact the TV presenters are, for me, wearing it for the wrong reasons, just so they can be seen to be wearing one with little thought for the reason for doing so.

 

As for how much of the money collected for poppies actually goes to the cause in question, then, unless they are lying, every penny raised is spent and accounted for accordingly by the British Legion, so a £1 given is £1 spent appropriately.

 

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/support-us/how-to-give/where-your-money-goes

 

As far as McLean goes, its his choice and his having to account for it is a non-issue. Typical of that rag the Daily Mail to drag it up to provoke their rabid readership. I always thought the point of fighting and dying to preserve and maintain the personal freedoms we have today was that you had just that: freedom of choice, that is, to do, or not to do something. Who was it who said that he/she disagreed most vehemently with something that an opponent said/believed in but added that they would fight to the death to preserve their right to say and believe it? Spot on. Real freedom of speech does mean that people are going to have to get used to the idea of people saying things that they don''t like,that upset and offend them. But whats more offensive? That or there not being the right to it in the first place?

 

The last couple of years that  I have been to the Cenotaph in London the gentle afternoon reverie around Whitehall and Westminster Abbey has been disturbed by the incessant drumming and militaristic approach of the National Front as they do their own march past the Cenotaph. Unlike the quiet and solemn manner of the "main event", their procession is accompanied by the drumming, whistles and military like cries. I asked a policeman about it last year, he said they had the right to do so, like anyone else. It offended me,more so when I saw the tourists, all races and nations, taking photographs of them. I hate that they are there, that they march, and that they try to give themselves credibility in doing so. I dare say they have lost members in armed conflict, just as all other parts of society have. I note that people are aghast at some of the fundamentalists attitude to today as am I-but little mention of their (NF) fundamentalism and no condemnation. Is it somehow OK because they are British-bad enough to sweep under the carpet but not so as to protest about it?

 

Its a shame that, with every Remembrance Sunday, the  talk of motive comes around again and again-who wears one, who doesn''t and why is or isn''t he/she etc? Its become a massive commercial event now, getting bigger every year, somehow the sheer scale of it seems to make it less solemn for me. Never-the-less, the important thing is to remember, and, as has been said on here already, to remember *all*, not just those who were on the ''victorious'' side. War is evil, reprehensible and, you would think in the 21st century, unneccessary-but its also a massive industry and attracts a media circus wherever it breaks out-wicked, evil and addictive...

 

 

 

 

[crabbycanary 2]

Nutty - I agree with your sentiment. A couple of examples I can offer (both WW2), one of my Grandads died at Monte Cassino, and as a consequence my Mum never knew her Father. One of my wife''s Grandad''s fought in Burma, and he never wanted to discuss what happened out there, it was pure hell he said.

War? Good for absolutely nothing (thanks to Holly Johnson)

Perhaps, inadvertently, in my own un-educated way they are two reasons to start with, as to why I am so angry about this. Perhaps, in my eyes, McLean is dissing those two Grandads and millions more (on all sides), by what I see as a lack of respect, I dunno. I just fail to see why, someone in his position, couldn''t have worn the shirt (it isn''t about a badge of honour btw). He felt very strongly not to wear one, when all around him did (including his Irish Boss - but then again, that is presuming that was McLean''s reason)

[Old Shuck 185]

Crabby, you have every right to be angry about it. Its provoked debate and an exchange of freely given views. To be able to do that, not that the gentlemen in question could ever have dreamt about the platform we are doing it on, would have been an ideal they wanted to preserve when they went off to fight.

 

If we could all direct our anger at the tiny minority that lead us to war, well....maybe it would make a difference? Naively, I''d like to think so but I guess the very act of rising up and saying "no more" would be war like in itself.

[crabbycanary 2]

Very well put over Shuck, better than my limited education could have done!

[crabbycanary 2]

Perhaps I am angry because McLean will never put himself in the position of fighting a war, with all its risks and sacrifices, yet chooses to show a sign (yep - in my eyes) of disrespect to those that have/do.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

[quote user="crabbycanary"]Nutty - I agree with your sentiment. A couple of examples I can offer (both WW2), one of my Grandads died at Monte Cassino, and as a consequence my Mum never knew her Father. One of my wife''s Grandad''s fought in Burma, and he never wanted to discuss what happened out there, it was pure hell he said. War? Good for absolutely nothing (thanks to Holly Johnson) Perhaps, inadvertently, in my own un-educated way they are two reasons to start with, as to why I am so angry about this. Perhaps, in my eyes, McLean is dissing those two Grandads and millions more (on all sides), by what I see as a lack of respect, I dunno. I just fail to see why, someone in his position, couldn''t have worn the shirt (it isn''t about a badge of honour btw). He felt very strongly not to wear one, when all around him did (including his Irish Boss - but then again, that is presuming that was McLean''s reason)[/quote]

 

Just as folk can wear their poppy to respect who they want others will judge their motives. That judgement could be wrong just as any judgement made about someone not wearing a poppy. So why wear one at all? Couldn''t we just respect and remember our own way? I think the wearing of the poppy and the silence is to show solidarity with others. If a mother lost her son in a conflict she would possibly draw some comfort from someone else wearing a poppy. It would be nice if that comfort could be drawn by all people the world over who lost loved ones in conflict and that is the overiding sentiment for my poppy.

 

 

[Crispy 4]

Crabby - "He WANTED to make a statement, but didn''t want to back it up "

I completely disagree, maybe he has done it his whole life & wants to quietly continue.

Making not bringing his reasons to light is actually respectful & if he were to voice his opinion loudly he would then be influencing people not to wear a poppy, something you seem to be scared of.

Fair play to McClean, he has obviously followed through with a conviction he has on the subject but has NOT made a big deal out of it & let those who want to follow the tradition do so without any of his views.

After all if he was to make a public statement it would be disrespectful to his own team mates who are wearing the poppy by his side.

Sure you are curious as to why he did not wear a Poppy but it matters not. Today is not about McClean. Its about people who came before us & laid their lives for us to enjoy the freedoms & society we live in.

[Monty13 2,239]

Crispy, read the whole thread with interest and was about to post something similar. He is entitled to his views and by not making a public statement in support of them he HAS been respectful.

[Unhinged Canary 375]

[quote user="crabbycanary"]

War? Good for absolutely nothing (thanks to Holly Johnson) [/quote]I think Edwin Starr may take issue with that.....(Or the Temptations if you''re being really picky...)

[crabbycanary 2]

Cheers Unhinged - Holly''s name was the first one I could remember! I was in a blinding rage don''t you know!

[pete_norw 0]

Was in London for the parade, and have to say that non of the hotel staff wore poppies,and the average londoner didn''t wear them eather, my wife and I arrived at the Embankment pier at 12noon on Saturday and I found it hard to count the poppies, seems  people only ware them on parades in London, But I wore mine with Pride as I marched with my Old comrades. 

[Joanna Grey 0]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]

I''d be interested to learn if the BBC have made it mandatory for their presenters to all wear a poppy.

[/quote]

It is up to the presenters whether they wear them or not although overseas presenters are not allowed to wear them. The other hard and fast rule is that of the dates they are allowed to wear them after complaints that they were being worn too early a couple of years ago.

[Billabong 0]

The poppy isn''t some kind of political symbol, unfortunately McClean [In his small-minded & dated] view has decided it is.

It would be a bit like me refusing to eat pasta because the Romans invaded Britain in 55 BC

It''s my right to refuse to eat pasta but It''s time to move on! and grow the fluck up

[nutty nigel 7,555]

Billabong - McClean has no right to judge why you wear a poppy and you have no right to judge why he doesn''t. There''s probably no two people on this thread who have the same reasons for wearing/not wearing one.

 

 

[William Darby 0]

I think some times people assume if you don''t wear a poppy you don''t give a s4it.Having said that imo JMcC has made a statement about this Irish BS which is a BS argument because many Irish volunteered for WW1 when they didn''t necessarily have to.

[lake district canary 0]

quote"The Pink''un Role Model" - I think some times people assume if you don''t wear a poppy you don''t give a s4it.Having said that imo JMcC has made a statement about this Irish BS which is a BS argument because many Irish volunteered for WW1 when they didn''t necessarily have to.

Its just the same old thing.   People trying to make it compulsory for other people to do something through social pressure - regardless of what that person might really think.       Exacerbated by the media and blown out of proportion.    As has been said - our thoughts are our own - you might like to control what another person is thinking, but at the moment we can think for ourselves - even if the media would like it otherwise.

[Nuff Said 5,153]

[quote user="lake district canary"]The freedom of speech I have now are restricted by other people''s views about what is acceptable.   That is not freedom of speech.  I can say what I like - but can be ostricised or even arrested if I say something in public that twenty year ago would not have been a problem.   That is not the same level of freedom of speech - it is less.    If what our parents grandparents fought is "freedom of speech" - well I don''t believe things are getting better on that front.    That''s all.   By the way, I''ve nothing against gays, or down town Delhi, but the Welsh.......................[/quote]Perhaps you could give an example of something you''d like to say that would have been acceptable twenty years ago but isn''t now? Then we can form a judgement on whether this is because of progress or oppression. As you say, you can say pretty much what you like, but fortunately today we have a higher standard of respect and - for me this is crucial - an understanding of how the majority can oppress those that are considered different.