That Collins/Surman penalty shout

[Jim Smith 2,349]

Just watched the highlights from saturday for the first time properly and seems to be widely acknowledged Foy got it right with the penalty call but why on earth was Collins not sent off for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity. He wasn''t even booked as far as I am aware. Had Surman skipped over him he would have been one on one with the keeper with the ball on his left foot about 8 yards from goal and the one defender back would not have been able to get anywhere near him.

It wasn''t a penalty but I reckon 8 times out of 10 it would have been given and many refs would have sent him off. we really are not getting the breaks so far this season.

[TCCANARY 263]

Collins was booked for the foul on Surman.

 

[ncfcstar 295]

He did get booked.  Even if it''s denying a goalscoring opportunity, which I think would only be given unless if it''s clear cut with no argument against, I''d argue it''s dangerous/reckless at best.  I can''t ever see it being given as a red though unfortunately.

[Jim Smith 2,349]

[quote user="ncfcstar"]He did get booked.  Even if it''s denying a goalscoring opportunity, which I think would only be given unless if it''s clear cut with no argument against, I''d argue it''s dangerous/reckless at best.  I can''t ever see it being given as a red though unfortunately.[/quote]

Why not though. Surman was clean through one on one with the keeper 8 yards from goal. How much more of a clear goalscoring opportunity can you get?

I didn''t realise he was booked. Must have missed that in my red haze at the time!

[Gingerpele 0]

Where are you getting 8 yard from goal? He was fouled 18 1/4 yards out, if the ball was going 10 yards in-front of him the keeper would have got to it first....

[BroadstairsR 2,218]

The ref. was spot on and we were only unlucky in as much as many officials might have actually given a penalty and we missed out again, of course. No benefit of the doubt for little Norwich.

 

The spot kick given to QPR was for a minor infringement, by comparison.

 

Any thought of Clattenburg (?) still rattles my cage. We all live with ref''s mistakes, but his was a blatent disregard for the rules of the game, with no reaction from the footballing powers that be. It may cost us dearly.  

[Gingerpele 0]

Where the really unlucky part of it comes into my mind, is Barnett against Stoke last season. We conceded a penalty (which was missed luckily enough) and Barnett got sent off, I haven''t seen that in a while but from memory he barley made contact, was about 5 yards outside the box, and there was a player or two covering.

It could just be the Norwich bias talking, but we do seem to get caught short with most of the big decisions, Barton getting sent off is the only ''big'' dodgy decision form last season going our way (wasn''t really a sending off, just his stupidity. And there may have been others, but I can''t remember any).

[BroadstairsR 2,218]

I''m unsure as to whether this anti-Norwich bias is valid or not. Through my yellow-tinted I generally feel we get a rough deal most of the time. In fact, I can be rather paranoid about it.

 

Is it realistic? Did Toffee supporters gripe about little Everton last night?

 

That Clattenburg though. No paranoia there. Just a sackable offence if ever there was one.

[PurpleCanary 5,592]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

I''m unsure as to whether this anti-Norwich bias is valid or not. Through my yellow-tinted I generally feel we get a rough deal most of the time. In fact, I can be rather paranoid about it.

 

Is it realistic? Did Toffee supporters gripe about little Everton last night?

 

[/quote]

 

There is a refereeing bias. Referees, once safely retired, will admit it. It is in favour of the big clubs at the expense of the others. But in games involving those clubs who make up the others I doubt there is a bias. So we - and other clubs in our group of others - will get a bad deal against, say, Man Utd, but we won''t against WBA or Reading. And they won''t against us.

[paul moy 235]

I never had a problem with this. It was clear during live play that the foul was just outside the area. The ref got it spot on so we should move on. I''d be more disgruntled if we were Everton last night... [:D] 

[whoareyou? 0]

No doubt though that had that been Paul Scholes fouled just outside the area at Old Trafford, the ref would almost certainly have given a penalty.

[shefcanary 2,496]

The booking was the right punishment too.  There was one angle on the TV from the River End which shows a defender just running across the penalty area behind Collins to cover for him as Surman crashes to the ground.  IMO and in Foy''s he would have at the least put in a tackle on Surman so not a clear goal scoring attempt would have followed.

[Indy_Bones 442]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]I''m unsure as to whether this anti-Norwich bias is valid or not. Through my yellow-tinted I generally feel we get a rough deal most of the time. In fact, I can be rather paranoid about it.Is it realistic? Did Toffee supporters gripe about little Everton last night?[/quote]I''d argue that there is a bias based purely on penalty statistics, I''ve already covered this in one of my articles ([url]http://www.indybonestruth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/foul-play-at-top.html[/url]), but in summary the ''big'' sides all tend to get less penalties awarded against them and more in their favour as well (both compared to the league average each season).Whereas we get far less penalties awarded and more given against us (A pen in our favour in just 7.9% of games compared to 14.5% for Man Utd, and given against us in 13.2% of games compared to 6.8% for Man Utd...)There are other sides outside of the ''big'' four that also have positive and negative biases, but over a 10 year period the big teams have averaged more positive bias penalty decisions than any other sides in the league - make of that what you will...

[Hairy Canary 713]

fair enough Indy and very interesting. The top teams spend more time attacking than the ones struggling at the bottom though so you would expect them to be awarded more pens on that basis alone. Same goes for conceding.

[Gingerpele 0]

[quote user="paul moy"]I never had a problem with this. It was clear during live play that the foul was just outside the area. The ref got it spot on so we should move on. I''d be more disgruntled if we were Everton last night... [:D] [/quote]

Not at the ground it wasn''t. Surman landed about 6 yards into the area, so wasn''t clear at all... And it was so close to the line when shown very slowly.

[SwindonCanary 455]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]

Just watched the highlights from saturday for the first time properly and seems to be widely acknowledged Foy got it right with the penalty call but why on earth was Collins not sent off for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity. He wasn''t even booked as far as I am aware. Had Surman skipped over him he would have been one on one with the keeper with the ball on his left foot about 8 yards from goal and the one defender back would not have been able to get anywhere near him.

It wasn''t a penalty but I reckon 8 times out of 10 it would have been given and many refs would have sent him off. we really are not getting the breaks so far this season.

[/quote]May I bring to your attention an earlier post ?     http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/2793060/ShowPost.aspx

[Indy_Bones 442]

[quote user="Hairy Canary"]The top teams spend more time attacking than the ones struggling at the bottom though so you would expect them to be awarded more pens on that basis alone. Same goes for conceding.[/quote]It would make perfect sense if there weren''t discrepancies with this however.Teams like QPR, Blackpool, Southampton, Hull, Wolves and Leicester (amongst a few others) have all had positive bias in their favour in regards to pens given against them, and none of them have great defences!Similarly Palace, Burnley, Sheff Utd, Hull and Swansea (again amongst others) all have positive bias in their favour in regards to pens given for them and they don''t have world class attacking talent either!Out of the entire 10 year period analysed, only 4 teams who''d been there for more than a season or two beat the league average overall in both aspects:ArsenalChelseaLiverpoolMan UtdThe fact that other (much poorer) teams also show positive bias proves that it''s not simply down to top defenders and strikers making the difference, but that overall the refs favour the big boys...

[Zak Van Burger 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]([url]http://www.indybonestruth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/foul-play-at-top.html[/url])[/quote]This was a good article Indy, couldn''t help but LOL at the Crystal Palarse stats as only yesterday I was chastised on this board for inferring that Andy Johnson was a cheating diver which would appear to be proven by the ridiculous stat of a penalty awarded to Palace in 31.6% of games played in 04/05 illustrating a quite remarkable amount of falling over in the penalty area when you consider that in the 2004-5 season as far as I''m aware all Crystal Palace players had two legs.

[Gingerpele 0]

You were chastised for saying Johnson was a cheating diver? What? By who? Everyone knows that, its common knowledge, even he knows it, hence his celebration a few years ago of him diving over a team mate sliding in...

[The Great Drinkell 50]

A question for our resident ref,

 A goalkeeper takes a short goal kick to his defender the ball touches the line but does not fully cross it before the defender plays the ball. The ref sees this and instructs the goalkeeper to retake the kick. - I believe this to be the correct award.

A player going into the box gets trips on the line and is given a free kick from the edge of the area.

My question is where is the boundary of inside and outside of the area?  is it the outside line of the area or the inside line of the area or in fact both the inside and the outside?

 

[Yellow Wal 314]

The area includes the entire area and all the line.

On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it?

After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The area includes the entire area and all the line. On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it? After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.[/quote]

Decisions are made on where a player is ''standing'' with regard to the line, not where an upper part of the body is as far as I''m aware.

 

[Davo 0]

[quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The area includes the entire area and all the line. On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it? After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.[/quote]

Decisions are made on where a player is ''standing'' with regard to the line, not where an upper part of the body is as far as I''m aware.

 

[/quote]

That is certainly the case when it come to keepers handling outside the area.

Davo

[PurpleCanary 5,592]

[quote user="Davo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The area includes the entire area and all the line. On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it? After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.[/quote]

Decisions are made on where a player is ''standing'' with regard to the line, not where an upper part of the body is as far as I''m aware.

 

[/quote]

That is certainly the case when it come to keepers handling outside the area.

Davo

[/quote]

 

No. Handling the ball depends on where the goalkeeper''s hands are. You can be standing inside the penalty area and handling outside, and vice-versa.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Davo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The area includes the entire area and all the line. On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it? After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.[/quote]

Decisions are made on where a player is ''standing'' with regard to the line, not where an upper part of the body is as far as I''m aware.

 

[/quote]

That is certainly the case when it come to keepers handling outside the area.

Davo

[/quote]

 

No. Handling the ball depends on where the goalkeeper''s hands are. You can be standing inside the penalty area and handling outside, and vice-versa.

[/quote]

The Laws for goalkeepers, funnily enough are different to those for outfield players so my previous comment still stands.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,592]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Davo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The area includes the entire area and all the line. On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it? After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.[/quote]

Decisions are made on where a player is ''standing'' with regard to the line, not where an upper part of the body is as far as I''m aware.

 

[/quote]

That is certainly the case when it come to keepers handling outside the area.

Davo

[/quote]

 

No. Handling the ball depends on where the goalkeeper''s hands are. You can be standing inside the penalty area and handling outside, and vice-versa.

[/quote]

The Laws for goalkeepers, funnily enough are different to those for outfield players so my previous comment still stands.

 

[/quote]

 

It was Davo''s view on goalkeepers I was challenging. And that would also apply to an outfield defender who was standing outside the penalty area and lent forwards to handle the ball inside. That would be a penalty. It wouldn''t matter where he was standing in relation to the line.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Davo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The area includes the entire area and all the line. On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it? After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.[/quote]

Decisions are made on where a player is ''standing'' with regard to the line, not where an upper part of the body is as far as I''m aware.

 

[/quote]

That is certainly the case when it come to keepers handling outside the area.

Davo

[/quote]

 

No. Handling the ball depends on where the goalkeeper''s hands are. You can be standing inside the penalty area and handling outside, and vice-versa.

[/quote]

The Laws for goalkeepers, funnily enough are different to those for outfield players so my previous comment still stands.

 

[/quote]

 

It was Davo''s view on goalkeepers I was challenging. And that would also apply to an outfield defender who was standing outside the penalty area and lent forwards to handle the ball inside. That would be a penalty. It wouldn''t matter where he was standing in relation to the line.

[/quote]

Yes, but the discussion here is not about handling a ball, but a tackle !! Jeeeezzzz

[Davo 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Davo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The area includes the entire area and all the line. On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it? After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.[/quote]

Decisions are made on where a player is ''standing'' with regard to the line, not where an upper part of the body is as far as I''m aware.

 

[/quote]

That is certainly the case when it come to keepers handling outside the area.

Davo

[/quote]

 

No. Handling the ball depends on where the goalkeeper''s hands are. You can be standing inside the penalty area and handling outside, and vice-versa.

[/quote]

The Laws for goalkeepers, funnily enough are different to those for outfield players so my previous comment still stands.

 

[/quote]

 

It was Davo''s view on goalkeepers I was challenging. And that would also apply to an outfield defender who was standing outside the penalty area and lent forwards to handle the ball inside. That would be a penalty. It wouldn''t matter where he was standing in relation to the line.

[/quote]

I am sure I have seen it it where a keeper is leaning forward to catch a ball where he caught it outside his area however his feet were int he area an no free kick has been given.

So if a playing is standing on the edge of of 18 yard box and the ball hits his hand that''s over the line this should be a penalty? Never really thought about this before.

Davo

[PurpleCanary 5,592]

[quote user="Davo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Davo"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]The area includes the entire area and all the line. On another point, many people have pointed out that referee Mr Foy got it right with the penalty shout as Surman''s toe was just outside the box. I wasn''t aware that Collins made contact with his toe! With what part of Surman was contact made? And where was it? After saying that, it was still too close to call but all the people who are so sure that it was outside the box should perhaps ask themselves the question.[/quote]

Decisions are made on where a player is ''standing'' with regard to the line, not where an upper part of the body is as far as I''m aware.

 

[/quote]

That is certainly the case when it come to keepers handling outside the area.

Davo

[/quote]

 

No. Handling the ball depends on where the goalkeeper''s hands are. You can be standing inside the penalty area and handling outside, and vice-versa.

[/quote]

The Laws for goalkeepers, funnily enough are different to those for outfield players so my previous comment still stands.

 

[/quote]

 

It was Davo''s view on goalkeepers I was challenging. And that would also apply to an outfield defender who was standing outside the penalty area and lent forwards to handle the ball inside. That would be a penalty. It wouldn''t matter where he was standing in relation to the line.

[/quote]

I am sure I have seen it it where a keeper is leaning forward to catch a ball where he caught it outside his area however his feet were int he area an no free kick has been given.

So if a playing is standing on the edge of of 18 yard box and the ball hits his hand that''s over the line this should be a penalty? Never really thought about this before.

Davo

[/quote]

 

Davo, in that case the keeper got very lucky with the referee! With handling the ball it is where the hands are that matters, whether it''s a goalie or an outfielder.

[Davo 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

Davo, in that case the keeper got very lucky with the referee! With handling the ball it is where the hands are that matters, whether it''s a goalie or an outfielder.

[/quote]

Possibly or it could simply be a dodgy memory and confirmation bias.

Davo