A message of thanks to Norwich fans

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

Excellent post from Kippax. A lot there I certainly didn''t know. I can''t speak for other fans, but I suspect what looks unfair (in general rather than specifically to do with Man City) is not so much the squillions of pounds but the arbitrariness of it. Football has always been ruled by money. Over many decades an obvious correlation between wealth and success. The successful clubs were those either in inner-city areas, with many tens of thousands of fans on tap, or in towns - large and small - that had thriving economies. So Burnley could win the First Division in 1960.

The arrival of the mega-rich owner has broken that link. Some have connections to the specific club. Our millionaire (it was a supposed £20m rather than £40m) had playerd for the youth team. Jack Walker was from Blackburn. But as far as I know there was no connection between the Abu Dhabu United Group and Man City. It could have been any club. The same with the Bostonians and Liverpool. Similarly with Abramovich. Even if he had limited himself to London, why not West Ham? Arguably more of a footballing club, with a richer history, than Chelsea.

[......and Smith must score. 1,345]

A great post that sums it up perfectly Kippax.As addicted fans, other than walking away we are pretty much powerless to do anything about what happens to our clubs. From those dark days when you were in the third tier you must have wondered if the good times would ever return. We thought the same three years ago.We might not admit it but most clubs would be only too happy to accept the limitless millions you and Chelsea and one or two others currently enjoy. It comes with a price though  and there must remain a nagging fear however that should these mega-rich owners get bored of it all then it could all collapse like a pack of cards. But as I said there''s diddly squat supporters can do about that.To be fair to Delia and her husband they have always been reluctant to sell NCFC to any Tom. Dick or Harry who comes calling. There have been one or two unsavoury characters floating around who haven''t managed to get their grubby claws on our club and for that we are grateful.It will be interesting to see where clubs are in 10/15 years time. Whatever successes and failures come along I''m pretty sure they''ll all still be around and that''s the most important thing surely.....

[GenerationA47 752]

Agreed Beausant, ManCs are among the most genuine & down to earth fans, who can relate to us without being 100% condescending as they have ''been there''. I too had a great time chatting to a bunch in a Manchester pub after the December game. (I didn''t feel this well disposed towards them at 4.30pm last Saturday)

Of course they, like us, have a certain percentage of lippy and punchy oafs (clearly not those posting here), and I can''t deny there''s something of the smug lurking now with the best of them, but as Kippax, OP and others imply today''s relative success could at least be said to have been ''earned'' over the decades by almost every single one of their fans, unlike their neighbours. I mean this as a separate issue from the money question though in reality, yes it''s been bought, which even ManC fans will recognise is problematic. 

 

An interesting thing is they have zero grudge against (local) Utd fans themselves, as evidenced by some of the group in the pub being of that calling. I suppose they are too close for the kind of ''hatred'' seen between us and our neighbours to be tenable. Inevitably they do share our disdain for the ManU ''TV & shirt'' fans from around the rest of the country.

[Lets be aving you! 0]

Excellent post, Kippax.

 

Have not known many Man City fans, mainly because in the south all the glory-hunters choose other teams that win things! The one fan that I did know at school was always being teased.

 

After Saturday''s game our group on the train got talking to a Man C fan who clearly knew a lot about our club, which most teams'' fans don''t, even asking how many more years we thought might be left in Drury.

 

Personally, I would prefer a level playing field for all, but guess that will never happen. The closest would be if these mooted Fair Play rules come in to ensure any income is sustainably generated internally, but no doubt there will be all sorts of ways round it.

 

For all but the hugely funded Chelski, Citeh & Liverpool, and the ultra-big clubs of Arsenal and Man U, it''s now a relegation battle right from the start of the season, with just a very slim chance of a European spot.

 

There are a couple of depressing aspects to this.

 

Firstly, an "unfunded" unfashionable club can no longer win the league.

 

Secondly, the success that such huge funding will inevitably bring very soon changes the football club from within. Evidence was all around the place at Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford & Craven Cottage when I went this season. Each ground was full of "football tourists", usually foreign (South Korean, American, Russian), who seemed happiest taking photos of the stadia, but who made not even a squeak during the game.

 

Other than at the Norwich end, the silence was deafening, the atmosphere zero.

 

Our group on the train on Saturday took a straw poll on whether we would like a huge investor to come in with megabucks. Most said yes, but I said no, for the simple reason that Norwich City would end up a "celebrity-footballer club" rather than a football club and would lose its identity.

 

That said, cracking football on Saturday, and best of luck for the rest of the season, Kippax.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,385]

Because Abramovic couldn''t moor his yacht anywhere near Upton Park.

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="Fellas"][quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]The author of Soccernomics,  Stefan Szymanski, talks out of his backside almost as much as you do

[/quote]

So what makes your take on it all stack up better than someone like Szymanski? To coin one of your favourite belittling comments....you really are an idiot Duffalo.

[/quote]It is not just my analysis of it though is it Plod? The link I have provided is a critique of Szymanski''s work. This critique comes to similar conclusions as I do. Syzmanski fails to provide sufficient evdience for his belief that Wages offer a better correlation to a teams success than transfer fees do because the evidence that he needs is not available to him or anyone else, just as accurate evidence for exactly how much each and every club has received/spent in transfer revenue is not available to any one person or organisation.As I have said all along the correlation between both is extremely close and no matter how much you want to pretend you know better, you have no evidence that you or anyone else is able to provide which shows otherwise.[/quote]

Can you please provide a peer reviewed paper on the critque then, Gruffalo.

FYI. The original paper by Szymanski: http://jse.sagepub.com/content/3/2/149.abstract, in the Journal of Sports Economics.

[/quote]I thought I already had done? Just for you here it is again http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/12/soccernomics-was-wrong-why-transfer-expenditures-matter/Still waiting for you to provide a link to your evidence from a certain thread that reached over 60 pages. Not that I dispute what you had to say there, it would have just been nice to have seen it in writing, rather than your take on what you found in the accounts.

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

You are right Kippax. Despite all the pressure groups and fans associations fans have no real say in their clubs destiny.

 

[/quote]Well ours at Carrow Road certainly don''t anyway. Remember when we were relegated to League 1 and our biggest pressure group done absolutely nothing until the curtain on our season had closed away at Charlton? To make matters worse they then called a fans meeting in which they contrived to come up with a plan of starving the manager of tranfer funds for our coming season in League 1, rather than putting direct pressure on all of the people they deemed worthy of blame.Pure genius!

[militantcanary 0]

I would also be interested to know, what it was about our fans that you found most unpleasant, do we reek of money perhaps?

No it was to quote the Oasis song, cigarettes and alcohol and arrogance to be honest.

I admire your attempt to defend your club, and your benefactors are not asset strippers like the Glazers but I don''t see how they cannot be seen to be treating it as a plaything. They have fastened onto onto Man City because they see the potential with no connections at all and when financial prudence kicks in will they still be there? Perhaps they will, perhaps not.

We would of course want to take a big input into the Club but with the exception of Richards have you not lost empathy with all your players? In the past i have chatted to Iwan Roberts in KFC, Craig Fleming in the Indian and a couple of others, there is a sense we are tied to the community your club is not by a million miles, sorry.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

You are right Kippax. Despite all the pressure groups and fans associations fans have no real say in their clubs destiny.

 

[/quote]

Well ours at Carrow Road certainly don''t anyway. Remember when we were relegated to League 1 and our biggest pressure group done absolutely nothing until the curtain on our season had closed away at Charlton? To make matters worse they then called a fans meeting in which they contrived to come up with a plan of starving the manager of tranfer funds for our coming season in League 1, rather than putting direct pressure on all of the people they deemed worthy of blame.

Pure genius!
[/quote]

 

And when have any club''s pressure groups and fan''s associations ever made any difference?

 

As for the meeting in May 2009 who are these people worthy of blame that should have been pressurised?

 

The St Andrews Hall meeting was a good idea. It gave fans a chance to vent. But it was never going to achieve much else because the changes were already underway.

 

You don''t half spout a load of old tosh smudgallo!

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

You are right Kippax. Despite all the pressure groups and fans associations fans have no real say in their clubs destiny.

 

[/quote]

Well ours at Carrow Road certainly don''t anyway. Remember when we were relegated to League 1 and our biggest pressure group done absolutely nothing until the curtain on our season had closed away at Charlton? To make matters worse they then called a fans meeting in which they contrived to come up with a plan of starving the manager of tranfer funds for our coming season in League 1, rather than putting direct pressure on all of the people they deemed worthy of blame.

Pure genius!
[/quote]

 

Interesting. What action are you saying this pressure should have taken DURING the season? Blackburn-style marches and chants during games? Boycotts of games? Pressure on corporate sponsors to withdraw funding? What specifically? And starting when?

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

***...this pressure group...****

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

And when have any club''s pressure groups and fan''s associations ever made any difference?

 

 

[/quote]Funny that you should mention that on a thread about Manchester City. Didn''t their fans once hound out Peter Swales?

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

You are right Kippax. Despite all the pressure groups and fans associations fans have no real say in their clubs destiny.

 

[/quote]Well ours at Carrow Road certainly don''t anyway. Remember when we were relegated to League 1 and our biggest pressure group done absolutely nothing until the curtain on our season had closed away at Charlton? To make matters worse they then called a fans meeting in which they contrived to come up with a plan of starving the manager of tranfer funds for our coming season in League 1, rather than putting direct pressure on all of the people they deemed worthy of blame.Pure genius![/quote]

 

Interesting. What action are you saying this pressure should have taken DURING the season? Blackburn-style marches and chants during games? Boycotts of games? Pressure on corporate sponsors to withdraw funding? What specifically? And starting when?

[/quote]If that is what their members voted for then yes. But there has never been a proper breakdown of what this organisations members voted for has there. Are you a member of said organisation Purple?It does not matter to me as I am not part of the little organisation who finds belittling it''s own clubs fans is top of it''s agenda.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

You are right Kippax. Despite all the pressure groups and fans associations fans have no real say in their clubs destiny.

 

[/quote]

Well ours at Carrow Road certainly don''t anyway. Remember when we were relegated to League 1 and our biggest pressure group done absolutely nothing until the curtain on our season had closed away at Charlton? To make matters worse they then called a fans meeting in which they contrived to come up with a plan of starving the manager of tranfer funds for our coming season in League 1, rather than putting direct pressure on all of the people they deemed worthy of blame.

Pure genius!
[/quote]

 

Interesting. What action are you saying this pressure should have taken DURING the season? Blackburn-style marches and chants during games? Boycotts of games? Pressure on corporate sponsors to withdraw funding? What specifically? And starting when?

[/quote]

If that is what their members voted for then yes. But there has never been a proper breakdown of what this organisations members voted for has there. Are you a member of said organisation Purple?

It does not matter to me as I am not part of the little organisation who finds belittling it''s own clubs fans is top of it''s agenda.
[/quote]

 

Afraid that anwer, like so many, won''t Gruffalo. It obviously does matter to you because you criticised the organisation for not acting soon enough. So you must have had in mind action you think it should have taken. So what was it?

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

And when have any club''s pressure groups and fan''s associations ever made any difference?

 

 

[/quote]

Funny that you should mention that on a thread about Manchester City. Didn''t their fans once hound out Peter Swales?
[/quote]

 

If anybody thought the hounding out of Worthington was a long slog it pales in comparison with the hounding out of Swales. When he went Franny Lee was heralded as the second coming but things went from bad to worse and Citeh nose dived down to the third division. Swales was dead before that happened mind you. If there’s still some Citeh fans around I’m sure they’ll have their own take on this. Was there a bigger queue to sign the book of condolence than pee on the grave? I’d be interested to know.

 

These protests are all very well but at the times the clubs most need the fans they have forgotten how to support the team and have gone into some kind of we know best mode with marches and demonstrations often doing more harm than good.

 

 

[TIL 1010 4,750]

That would of course be the organisation that canvassed its members with a questionaire DURING that fateful season about a number of issues and one of the questions being about the timing of any meeting that may be called for fans to express their thoughts.Options were given including now or at the end of the season and from the replies received the majority wanted it at the end of the season so the end of the season it was.

Now whilst appreciating that this reply will not fit in with Duffalos agenda of provocation i hope this is of interest to you Purple.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]

That would of course be the organisation that canvassed its members with a questionaire DURING that fateful season about a number of issues and one of the questions being about the timing of any meeting that may be called for fans to express their thoughts.Options were given including now or at the end of the season and from the replies received the majority wanted it at the end of the season so the end of the season it was.

Now whilst appreciating that this reply will not fit in with Duffalos agenda of provocation i hope this is of interest to you Purple.

[/quote]

 

Thank you. It is of interest. Highly relevant.

[The Gruffalo 0]

So fan power can make a difference then Nutty? Yes MCFC ended up with worse than what they had previously and I believe there were better offers on the table for them at the time than the offer from Franny Lee, but to say the years of pressure that Man City fans put Swales under had no effect whatsoever would be wide of the mark in my opinion.Yes you need somebody else to step in and that will always be a gamble that could swing one way or the other, but fans are capable of pushing through changes at clubs.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]So fan power can make a difference then Nutty? Yes MCFC ended up with worse than what they had previously and I believe there were better offers on the table for them at the time than the offer from Franny Lee, but to say the years of pressure that Man City fans put Swales under had no effect whatsoever would be wide of the mark in my opinion.

Yes you need somebody else to step in and that will always be a gamble that could swing one way or the other, but fans are capable of pushing through changes at clubs.
[/quote]

 

How do you know that? Swales had been there 20 years! The protests didn''t work and didn''t work and then finally he went. It''s just as likely he dug his heels in and stayed longer to spite the protestors!

 

Did the protestors get rid of Big Bad Bob or was it the bank? Did the protestors get rid of Worthy or was it the board?

 

 

 

[TIL 1010 4,750]

I think you will find Peter The Deleter is doing a night shift as he has just posted on the new kit thread so it rather looks like you have sinned Mr.Cluckson because i was wondering why Duffalo had brought you into the picture.Kind of put paid to his theory that Pete only acts as a result of a cry baby syndrome.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="Ruddygore"]It must be like cows regurgitating the cud on here at times. Well most of the time really. Does either side ever feel that the day will come when they can say "A-ha! I''ve finally won the argument! I rule the World! Hahahahahahahahaha......."? Just saying like...er...um...[/quote]

I doubt an argument can be won Ruddy. Not when you''re talking about football one minute and then defending our armed forces the next. Now could you just clarify - are you following me around like a long lost puppy or is this a chance encounter?

 

And just what have I got to do to make your list?

 

 

[Ruddygore 0]

Sorry Nige, can''t really comment until the "Other Side" have made representations also.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="Ruddygore"]Sorry Nige, can''t really comment until the "Other Side" have made representations also.[/quote]

 

But the list man.... What about the list?

 

[Ruddygore 0]

Sorry Nige, you know that I can''t discuss The List. The List is under wraps while the nominations are still coming in.

[Kippax 0]

[quote user="militantcanary"]I would also be interested to know, what it was about our fans that you found most unpleasant, do we reek of money perhaps?

No it was to quote the Oasis song, cigarettes and alcohol and arrogance to be honest.

I admire your attempt to defend your club, and your benefactors are not asset strippers like the Glazers but I don''t see how they cannot be seen to be treating it as a plaything. They have fastened onto onto Man City because they see the potential with no connections at all and when financial prudence kicks in will they still be there? Perhaps they will, perhaps not.

We would of course want to take a big input into the Club but with the exception of Richards have you not lost empathy with all your players? In the past i have chatted to Iwan Roberts in KFC, Craig Fleming in the Indian and a couple of others, there is a sense we are tied to the community your club is not by a million miles, sorry.[/quote]No need to apologise my friend, we all see things in a different way, that is what makes being a football fan so interesting.I would just like to pick up on a couple of points that you make. If you could elaborate on your comments regarding how our club is not tied to the community and provide some evidence to back that up. When we moved stadiums we deliberately left the accademy and the football in the community projects back in moss side as they were deemed to be too deep rooted within the community to be moved. Our football in the community project employs in excess of thirty people and is the biggest in the Premier League and is almost double the size of THAT LOTS. The project is so highly regarded that many of Europes top clubs have copied some aspect or another. (Barcelona, Juventus and AC)We have long been known as a family club and this is reflected in our family stand areas and also in extremely competitive ticket pricing for under 16s, incidentally my ticket on Saturday cost £45.00, how much did yours cost at our place? You seem to suggest that Norwich are tied to the community based on your meeting of players doing day to day tasks, I hate to disappoint you but you can''t be serious. I often meet players of nearly every North West club out and about in Manchester and last week spoke at length to Pablo Zabeletta and Vincent Kompany on seperate occassions but I wouldn''t say that those actions alone mean a greater unity with the community.Now the touchy subject of our owners and their intentions, I agree that they had absolutely no connection with Manchester before the takeover. I''m sure that you will be aware that planning permission is currently being applied for for a huge investment in a new training facility close to our stadium with a heavy emphasis on a new academy complex which will include on site living accomodation and learning facilities, in other words we will be investing heavily in our future talent. The idea being that we will seek young talent and nurture them to hopefully produce world class players of our own thus saving heavily on future transfer fees. That doesn''t sound like owners who don''t intend on being about for a very long time to come.If you read any quality business pages you will know that these are highly respected business people so what do they get out of it, well they will probably never make any money out of the football side, so the idea is to turn the name of Manchester City into a global brand name, to make the club so successful that hundreds of products will carry the Manchester City brand name, but at the top of it all will be the association with Abu Dhabi. Clever! Eh?I have been fortunate enough to follow my team all over the world for competitive matches and on end of and pre season tours and can honestly say that I have never felt a closer unity between the fans and the club. Just a couple for for instances, for the past three years a group of fans have been invited to view the kit launch before it is unveiled to the media, so what I hear you say, well I think it''s a fantastic gesture afterall the media won''t buy it, I will and to be given a first viewing shows that the club are thinking of me the supporter, plus the fact you get a free meal and booze at a local restaurant, which is always good Lol. A couple of years ago following a friendly match in Abu Dhabi, the owners laid on a Lavish beach Bar B Q for about 200 supporters that made the trip. There is also the new fanzone at the stadium, where groups perform and street entertainers are out in force for every home game in what has become known as City Square at one end of the stadium. This was instigated at the request of fans followin recent European trips where many continental clubs have a similar match day entertainment programme.Please don''t think that I am patronising you with what I have outlined above, because I''m not. I''m just trying to give you a better insight into the club which you may not be aware of. I am genuinley sorry that you seem to have had a bad experience with some of our fans, but let''s face it EVERY team has it''s *nobheads, even Norwich I''m afraid although I''m yet to meet many :) Sometimes though fans get a wrong impression of opposition fans because they just don''t understand them. When I am travelling away from home particlarly, I make a point of mixing with opposition fans rather than just watching them through sneering eyes, you quite often find that a song that you find arrogant has a totally different meaning to what you imagine and it''s only by talking that you become aware. I could go on and on with this conversation but maybe I have waffled long enough.None of the above makes Manchester City any better than Norwich City, we all see our own clubs in the light that suits us at the time, but hopefully I have given you a better insight into my club. I might not have changed your view of us, but perhaps you may think of us in not such a harsh light as you seem to have judged us.Good LuckKippax.. 

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Meet Balotelli in KFC or the local Indian and he''d probably say ''hello'' AND buy you a bucket or a Tikka Masala.

[7rew 0]

Gruffalo. Did you read that blog post all the way to the bottom or just the title? I think I know the answer by the way.

Because at the bottom there is this from the author:

"Ultimately, he and I would agree on the wage data being a better predictor given its higher R2 value for the same reasons I gave at the conclusion of my post"

[Lets be aving you! 0]

Kippax, I do hope you''re right that becoming such a rich club does not change your club for the worse because outside investors are starting to become the norm in the top division.

 

Most if not all clubs in the top flight will probably end up this way, either as a plaything and ego booster for the super-rich (Chelsea, Fulham) or as a way of marketing football to Asia and beyond. Even some of the middling clubs like Sunderland and Villa have pretty major backing from outside investors. I believe that a Russian billionnaire has this season become involved with recently promoted Reading.

 

To me, the biggest thing about NCFC is not the success (very little over the years anyway) but the sense of identity I feel with the club. I didn''t see too much evidence of this on my trips to Fulham, Chelsea and Man U this season, where a lot of fans seemed to be newbies attracted to a "successful" club with superstar players. Part of a celebrity culture. That seemed more of an appeal rather than a sense of identity with a specific club that would last a lifetime.

 

Fair point about the high prices at Norwich. The Board have really increased casual tickets this season because they are so limited in number. One could argue that this is a small attempt to try to compete with virtually all the rich clubs. Long-term, it could backfire.

 

Good luck, too.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="JF"]Other than Arsenal every team that has won the Premier league has bought the title so good luck to City and their fans. Blackburn did it with Walkers money, Man U have broke the British transfer record time and time again. And obviously Cheski''s money.[/quote]

Don''t Arsenal buy players then? I assume they got TH and CF for free and paid them peanuts. 

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="The Gruffalo"] There has always been a direct correlation between money spent and league position, with a few teams performing over and above the levels expected of them and a few teams unable to reach the levels expected of them each season.[/quote]

Evidence and sources please.

[/quote]

He doesn''t need them !