A message of thanks to Norwich fans

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,773]

Wouldnt it seem odd if a club in league one with gates of 25000 for every home match didnt have more financial power than most other clubs in that division?!?!?!

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]We spent more than anyone that season [IN LEAGUE ONE] the only teams who came close to matching our spending were Leeds and Southampton.

[/quote]

 

Now I am getting very confused. We were supposedly on the brink of administration and yet outspent every other team in the division. Heck, if I didn''t know better I would say that seemed like hard evidence that someone like, say, for the sake of argument, our owners, had put millions of pounds into the club.[;)]

[/quote]

Yes they did, or at least Foulger did and so did many of of our fans.

Are you trying to tell me that I am wrong and that we didn''t spend more than nearly every team in League 1 while we were in it?
[/quote]

 

It is difficult to believe both scenarios. We were days away from administration but spent more than anyone else while it was happening.

 

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

http://transferpriceindex.com/2011/01/comparing-econometric-models-of-the-english-premier-league-reconciling-the-tpi-and-soccernomics-data-sets-2/

 

[/quote]

That link looks like a load of mumbo jumbo to me. Where is your evidence that players wages have more correlation with the success of a team than transfer fee expenditure does?

I think that transfer fee expenditure, wages paid by a club and success go pretty much hand in hand.
[/quote]

 

You give a link to Norwich transfers which is supposed to prove what? I give you a researched link and you tell me it''s mumbo jumbo.

 

Where is your evidence comparing us to other clubs. And how did we outspend everyone else for two years at the same time as being days away from administration?

 

 

[notreallyhere 0]

Just a final note from me on here; it saddens me when people use the money as a stick to beat us with; I can understand why, but the vast, vast majority of our fans are the same people who were there 10, 20 years ago and are just enjoying the ride. I understand a few will let it go to their heads, but most of us still have the same sense of humour we always had, just using it in a different way (see the ''we never win at home and we never win away'' song we sang for a long time yesterday).

As I say, good luck for next season; hopefully I''ll be back at Carrow Road depending on the kick off time!

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

Wouldnt it seem odd if a club in league one with gates of 25000 for every home match didnt have more financial power than most other clubs in that division?!?!?!

[/quote]Indeed it would, but some people would have you believe that it wouldn''t though.Should we just hand the title to Man Utd every season then as they have more fans than the rest of us, or should teams like Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, Liverpool or even Blackburn Rovers in 1995 be allowed to compete with them? I guess in many NCFC fans eyes you should only be allwoed to compete in the Prmier League if you have spent less than £25 million these days? Until the fA change the rules then all clubs have to play by those rules. As far as I am aware Man City have not broken any of the rules.Did Forest, Everton, Aston Villa, Derby County, Leeds Utd etc not outspend the vast majority of teams by some distance when they competed for winning the old Division 1 Championship?It has always been that way and it always will be.Do you lot think that money doesn''t talk even in the Conference or below, because if you do then all I can say is that you are very naive indeed.

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

http://transferpriceindex.com/2011/01/comparing-econometric-models-of-the-english-premier-league-reconciling-the-tpi-and-soccernomics-data-sets-2/

 

[/quote]That link looks like a load of mumbo jumbo to me. Where is your evidence that players wages have more correlation with the success of a team than transfer fee expenditure does?I think that transfer fee expenditure, wages paid by a club and success go pretty much hand in hand.[/quote]

 

You give a link to Norwich transfers which is supposed to prove what? I give you a researched link and you tell me it''s mumbo jumbo.

 

Where is your evidence comparing us to other clubs. And how did we outspend everyone else for two years at the same time as being days away from administration?

 

 

[/quote]Your link shows absolutely nothing Nutty.I have given you a link to a website which has all of the tools for you to analyse transfer income and expenditure of every club in the Premier League and the Football League (a very detailed analysis of at least the last 15 years or so).More than that, I even provided my own analysis of the information provided on that website for the income and expenditure of us and our main rivals over the last 3 seasons.If you are not clever enough to use the tools that I have provided you with, or publish better evidence yourself in order to support your arguement then I would leave it at that.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

http://transferpriceindex.com/2011/01/comparing-econometric-models-of-the-english-premier-league-reconciling-the-tpi-and-soccernomics-data-sets-2/

 

[/quote]

That link looks like a load of mumbo jumbo to me. Where is your evidence that players wages have more correlation with the success of a team than transfer fee expenditure does?

I think that transfer fee expenditure, wages paid by a club and success go pretty much hand in hand.
[/quote]

 

You give a link to Norwich transfers which is supposed to prove what? I give you a researched link and you tell me it''s mumbo jumbo.

 

Where is your evidence comparing us to other clubs. And how did we outspend everyone else for two years at the same time as being days away from administration?

 

 

[/quote]

Your link shows absolutely nothing Nutty.

I have given you a link to a website which has all of the tools for you to analyse transfer income and expenditure of every club in the Premier League and the Football League (a very detailed analysis of at least the last 15 years or so).

More than that, I even provided my own analysis of the information provided on that website for the income and expenditure of us and our main rivals over the last 3 seasons.

If you are not clever enough to use the tools that I have provided you with, or publish better evidence yourself in order to support your arguement then I would leave it at that.
[/quote]

 

You got me Smudgallo. You''re too sharp for me buddy.

 

 

[TIL 1010 4,751]

[quote user="notreallyhere"]Just a final note from me on here; it saddens me when people use the money as a stick to beat us with; I can understand why, but the vast, vast majority of our fans are the same people who were there 10, 20 years ago and are just enjoying the ride. I understand a few will let it go to their heads, but most of us still have the same sense of humour we always had, just using it in a different way (see the ''we never win at home and we never win away'' song we sang for a long time yesterday). As I say, good luck for next season; hopefully I''ll be back at Carrow Road depending on the kick off time![/quote]

I just had to quote this to remind myself what the thread title was all about.Cheers mate for your kind words and you never know this thread may well still be going when you return next season.Our Nutty will still be Nutty but who knows what identity Duffalo will have chosen by then?[;)]

[Kippax 0]

[quote user="notreallyhere"]Just a final note from me on here; it saddens me when people use the money as a stick to beat us with; I can understand why, but the vast, vast majority of our fans are the same people who were there 10, 20 years ago and are just enjoying the ride. I understand a few will let it go to their heads, but most of us still have the same sense of humour we always had, just using it in a different way (see the ''we never win at home and we never win away'' song we sang for a long time yesterday).

As I say, good luck for next season; hopefully I''ll be back at Carrow Road depending on the kick off time![/quote]

Saw the thread title and was going to do the same as you mate and praise the Norwich fans, not only for yesterday but for the reverse game at CoMS, they are a great bunch and the majority are a credit to the club.

But I fear your original topic has been hijacked and this thread has descended into farce. But good luck anyway to all those football loving Canary fans.

Kippax.

[TIL 1010 4,751]

Maybe i spoke too soon ?

[SWP = Poor Mans Ruel Fox!! 0]

 

Not totally sure how accurate all of those figures are from the site quoted by ''the Gruffalo'' but if we only paid just under a million for Howson then that was a bloody good deal!!!

[The Gruffalo 0]

Here we go Nutty, just for you, from the link provided by you "Clearly there is a strong relationship between the current wages of a

squad and the current cost in transfer fees paid to assemble it" now wasn''t that exactly what I said  a few posts back?You were trying to claim that the amount of wages paid has more correlation to a teams success than transfer expenditure. where as I claimed they went hand in hand with eachother.Do you accept that you were wrong, or still wish to continue an arguement you are losing because you don''t like me very much?

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]I still guess that we spent more than most teams in our promotion season from League 1. We had quite a few free transfers and undisclosed ones that year. Leeds may have possibly spent less than us, but Southampton and Huddersfield may have spent more.

What is for sure is that the majority of that league are unable to compete with our finances if they are spent correctly.

QPR and Middlesborough spent more than us in our season in the Championship.

We spent more than Swansea both this season and last season, although they spent more than us while they were in the Championship and we were in League 1. We also spent more than Leeds, Cardiff and Reading during our Championship season and every other team with the exception of Leicester and Hull who spent a similar amount to us.

Along with Swansea, we have this season spent more than WBA, Wigan and Wolves. Aston Villa and Blackburn have spent slightly more than us on transfer fees this season, but I feel that they are also worth a mention as they have actually made a significant profit on their transfer dealings this year, so it could be considered that both teams are not as strong as last season.

So from this it appears that transfer expenditure does have a significant impact upon the success of a team and it possibly is just as big an impact on the likelihood of a teams chances of success as players wages might be.

Now Mister Chops and Nutty Nigel, where is your evidence to pick holes in my theory?
[/quote]

I would hazard a guess that established lower Prem teams have built up financial commitments such as annual contracted salaries which means that they do not have finances available for such transfer fees as we could afford immediately on promotion. Once we have built such an ongoing commitment ourselves we could also find ourselves hamstrung in this way.  Just because our transfer fees are higher does not mean that our overall annual expenditure on playing staff is higher.    

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Interesting comment from Kippax and how typical of this forum for the original themes of posts to be pimped, twisted and distorted until they end up in personal and unrelated argument. Remember how we couldn''t coordinate a decent Muamba goodwill thread?

[The Gruffalo 0]

Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise Paul?I would suggest that McNally, Lambert and Culverhouse sat down pre season and discussed how much they needed to spend to assure the best chance of Premier League survival. To think that we have spent drastically less than Swansea, WBA, Wigan etc in signing some of the very young talented players we have brought to our squad is naive in the extreme.We must have matched or outbid Swansea for Ryan Bennett''s signature (on both transfer fee and wages) for starters otherwise Bennett would be in South Wales right now.When I mentioned Villa they actually made a £20.6 million profit on their transfer dealings this season. Would you have us believe that they have spent that full £20 million on wages?Blackburn likewise made a £18.2 million profit.We have had a £12.6 million deficit through our transfer dealings this season. Would you have any of our fans believe that we have not invested more in our playing squad than both Aston Villa and Blackburn Rovers this season, even once squad wages are taken in to account?

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]Here we go Nutty, just for you, from the link provided by you "Clearly there is a strong relationship between the current wages of a squad and the current cost in transfer fees paid to assemble it" now wasn''t that exactly what I said  a few posts back?

You were trying to claim that the amount of wages paid has more correlation to a teams success than transfer expenditure. where as I claimed they went hand in hand with eachother.

Do you accept that you were wrong, or still wish to continue an arguement you are losing because you don''t like me very much?
[/quote]

 

No you''re still too sharp for me Smudgallo. I thought that wages was a much more reliable indication than transfer fees. If I''m wrong then I''ll hold my hands up

 

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]Here we go Nutty, just for you, from the link provided by you "Clearly there is a strong relationship between the current wages of a squad and the current cost in transfer fees paid to assemble it" now wasn''t that exactly what I said  a few posts back?You were trying to claim that the amount of wages paid has more correlation to a teams success than transfer expenditure. where as I claimed they went hand in hand with eachother.Do you accept that you were wrong, or still wish to continue an arguement you are losing because you don''t like me very much?[/quote]

 

No you''re still too sharp for me Smudgallo. I thought that wages was a much more reliable indication than transfer fees. If I''m wrong then I''ll hold my hands up

 

[/quote]But where is your evidence to support this theory of yours, or is it just all inside you head?I guess thoat Doncaster planted that seed years ago and it is still flourishing in your garden.

[SWP = Poor Mans Ruel Fox!! 0]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]

We have had a £12.6 million deficit through our transfer dealings this season. Would you have any of our fans believe that we have not invested more in our playing squad than both Aston Villa and Blackburn Rovers this season, even once squad wages are taken in to account?
[/quote]

 

Ignoring everything else, shall we look at Aston Villa in isolation.  Please have a look at their first team squad:

 

http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/FirstTeam

 

Players of the ilk of Given, Dunne, Warnock, Ireland, Petrov (who I have quickly looked up and is reputedly on £3.5m a year alone), N''Zogbia, Bent.  They would be the highest earners and I would say every one of those would comfortably be on a lot more money than the highest earners here.

 

Even the next layer of players in Villa''s squad: Hutton, Collins, Jenas, Agbonlahor, Heskey would be very good earners compared to our squad.

 

I have even read that McLeish was earning £2m a year a Birmingham, and so I would have thought he would at least be on that (probably more) at Villa.  Anyone know what Lambert is on?

 

How bigger do we reckon Villa''s annual wage bill is in relation to ours?

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="SWP Poor Mans Ruel Fox"]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]

We have had a £12.6 million deficit through our transfer dealings this season. Would you have any of our fans believe that we have not invested more in our playing squad than both Aston Villa and Blackburn Rovers this season, even once squad wages are taken in to account?
[/quote]

 

Ignoring everything else, shall we look at Aston Villa in isolation.  Please have a look at their first team squad:

 

http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/FirstTeam

 

Players of the ilk of Given, Dunne, Warnock, Ireland, Petrov (who I have quickly looked up and is reputedly on £3.5m a year alone), N''Zogbia, Bent.  They would be the highest earners and I would say every one of those would comfortably be on a lot more money than the highest earners here.

 

Even the next layer of players in Villa''s squad: Hutton, Collins, Jenas, Agbonlahor, Heskey would be very good earners compared to our squad.

 

I have even read that McLeish was earning £2m a year a Birmingham, and so I would have thought he would at least be on that (probably more) at Villa.  Anyone know what Lambert is on?

 

How bigger do we reckon Villa''s annual wage bill is in relation to ours?

[/quote]

 

I would say that Lambert comes in the catagory of managers who out perform the position expected from the club''s wage bill.

 

http://transferpriceindex.com/2012/02/all-time-best-managers-versus-transfer-expenditures-an-mxir-analysis/

 

But then again it could all be mumbo jumbo.

 

[The Gruffalo 0]

How much do you believe that Lambert and our highest wage earners are on SWP?

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]More from the link provided by Nutty that backs up my theory;

"Perhaps the authors of Soccernomics weren’t demonstrating a relationship between wages and finish position, but rather confounding it with the actual relationship between the MSq£ and finish position."

• Teams that are built with a league average Sq£ (MSq£ = 1.0) have typically finished in 11^th place.

• If a club wants a good chance staying away from relegation, they typically need to have a Sq£ of at least 20% of the average Sq£ for that season.

• If a club wants a good chance at a Champions League spot, they typically need to have a Sq£ of at least 1.98 times the average Sq£ for that season.

• To finish fifth and qualify automatically for the Europa League, a club typically need to have a Sq£ of at least 1.85 times the average Sq£ for that season.

Therefore it should be no real surprise to see us where we currently are in the league at the moment, as we are only just over achieving on our projected expected finishing place.

[/quote]

 

I should be careful with that link Smudgallo. That mumbo jumbo is where I got the misapprehension that wages were the best model to forecast league positions.

 

 

[SWP = Poor Mans Ruel Fox!! 0]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]How much do you believe that Lambert and our highest wage earners are on SWP?
[/quote]

 

Afraid to say, just as a lot of the fees on that site you quoted earlier, we have no real idea of the actual figures, but considering the majority of our players started this season with no PL experience, do you not consider it reasonable to agree that the players I highlighted in the Villa squad would be on considerably more money than every single player in our squad?  Do you now think that was one (of many) reasons we went down that recuitment route?  Villa have been recruiting with no relegation in mind whereas our recruitment would have been?

 

Just to play your own game, how much do YOU believe that Lambert and our highest earners are on, compared to the other clubs you have mentioned?

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

The problem is that in this day and age, you can sign a really good international for nothing on a Bosman, or bring a player through the ranks who costs you nothing in transfer fees. I don''t think you can directly correlate either wages or transfer fees paid, in isolation, to final placings.

I would have thought it is almost inevitable that the more established sides at PL level would have high wage bills, as they have established players under contract; this is one f the reasons for the parachute payments. They may have also paid more out in transfer fees for those players. But they do not need to buy players each season: a list of Man U players was quoted, many of which have been there for several years.

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

*continually buy the same players each season, just a few ''replacements''

[The Gruffalo 0]

Do you know the correlation between the two Nutty? Because I do and I also know that there is not too much in it. It is far from as clear cut as the picture many would like to paint.89% to 70% accuracy with the flaw being that available payroll data relates to each club as a whole and not just players contracts.Like I say, transfer income/expenditure and players wages pretty much go hand in hand.There is no way to clarify the exact accuracy of both sets of data, but to discount one over the other is foolish in the extreme.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

What I said Smudgallo was that the wages were more accurate. I didn''t discount anything. Your links make no sense at all to me. I''d rather trust the info on the link from Fellas, that you deny existence of, than I would fudge and bodge some kind of theory from incomplete information. It''s a fascinating subject to discuss but you discounting so much meaninful information as mumbo jumbo makes discussion difficult.

 

Despite your protestations to the contrary your main asset to this forum is obviously slinging insults around. A less patient poster than me would be long gone.

 

 

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="SWP = Poor Mans Ruel Fox"]

SWP wrote;

 

"Afraid to say, just as a lot of the fees on that site you quoted earlier, we have no real idea of the actual figures, but considering the majority of our players started this season with no PL experience, do you not consider it reasonable to agree that the players I highlighted in the Villa squad would be on considerably more money than every single player in our squad?  Do you now think that was one (of many) reasons we went down that recuitment route?  Villa have been recruiting with no relegation in mind whereas our recruitment would have been?

 

Just to play your own game, how much do YOU believe that Lambert and our highest earners are on, compared to the other clubs you have mentioned?"

I think Lambert will not be the worst paid manager in the Premier League.I also think that several of our players will be earning higher wages than several of Villa''s not so high wage earners, but that all of our players probably have a relegation clause written in to their contracts. Again I agree that we may have to consider paying bonuses and making improvements on existing contracts this summer, which again should see us spending more than some of the clubs who are promoted this season. But unless QPR are relegated then the promoted sides will possibly only be replacing those who have spent less than us this season.Yes the link I provided is fees for transfer income and expenditure. There is a detailed correlation of the the relationship this haves with a teams success here

[nutty nigel 7,539]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]There is a detailed correlation of the the relationship this haves with a teams success here
[/quote]

 

And there you have it. The fraud that is Smudgallo. One man''s mumbo jumbo can be the same man''s detailed correlation in just a few posts.

 

 

[TIL 1010 4,751]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"][quote user="SWP = Poor Mans Ruel Fox"]

SWP wrote;

 

 

 

Just to play your own game, how much do YOU believe that Lambert and our highest earners are on, compared to the other clubs you have mentioned?"

I think Lambert will not be the worst paid manager in the Premier League.

I also think that several of our players will be earning higher wages than several of Villa''s not so high wage earners,[/quote]

Well that really is a straightforward and no nonsense reply to a very simple question.[:(]

[The Gruffalo 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]There is a detailed correlation of the the relationship this haves with a teams success here[/quote]

 

And there you have it. The fraud that is Smudgallo. One man''s mumbo jumbo can be the same man''s detailed correlation in just a few posts.

 

 

[/quote]But the link that you provided was this one http://transferpriceindex.com/2011/01/comparing-econometric-models-of-the-english-premier-league-reconciling-the-tpi-and-soccernomics-data-sets-2/Sorry, not much at all of any relevance on that webpage, apart from the links.Still waiting for your detailed analysis and links to Prmier League teams playing squad wages (which does not exist).