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Adam NCFC

"Respect the ref"

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All this respect campaign, why don''t the FA give us a reason to respect them? We all know they can''t see everything, and occasionally the wrong decision but seriously the standard of refereeing is getting worse! When they do well they give them praise, and we do as well.. But when they do awfully (see Norwich first few games and plenty of others, including Scotland this weekend), they don''t say a word. Maybe if they used a league system for ref''s then the standard would go up and we would respect everyone more..Before people start with "why don''t you do their job", I have my own job, and if I f*cked up that much I''d be sacked.

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I don''t think the standard has got worse...I just think that nowadays with the tv cameras available, it is almost like the tv is Reffing the game lol

They do have a league system for refs, think they call it the elite list or something, if a ref does have a few stinkers they are taken off the list and sent to do league 1, likewise if a referee is excelling himself in the lower divisions they get promoted.

I think people underestimate how much premiership referees have to go for to get to where they''ve got too...it takes about 10 years for a start, fitness tests at level 4 being assessed on a regular basis...then to get into the prem and have 4 million cameras dotted around the pitch, a tv crew has the luxury of all those angles and the ability to watch any given incident over and over again

and can take as long as they want to discuss it

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A referee who has to make a split second decision does not share the same luxury

Adam what is your job? You say you would probably get the sack if you made mistakes like you think referees do...however when you work are you being watched by millions of people, could the decision you make ultimately be worth millions of pounds? No thought not

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[quote user="Give Peas a Chance "]I don''t think the standard has got worse...I just think that nowadays with the tv cameras available, it is almost like the tv is Reffing the game lol

They do have a league system for refs, think they call it the elite list or something, if a ref does have a few stinkers they are taken off the list and sent to do league 1, likewise if a referee is excelling himself in the lower divisions they get promoted.

I think people underestimate how much premiership referees have to go for to get to where they''ve got too...it takes about 10 years for a start, fitness tests at level 4 being assessed on a regular basis...then to get into the prem and have 4 million cameras dotted around the pitch, a tv crew has the luxury of all those angles and the ability to watch any given incident over and over again

and can take as long as they want to discuss it[/quote]

Jez, I am not being picky, and you are correct in the main, bit if you are Stuart Attwell or Michael Oliver then exceptions are made, and it doesn''t always workout that fast tracking is the best thing.

I am a Rugby Referee, and I also assess Rugby Referees, and there are always exceptions (i.e. young very good Refs that have the composure and personality to control a Rugby game, and 1 or 2 are ''fast tracked'' because they can cope),but in the main, very good Rugby Refs come into their own when they are in their 30''s + (at the top level)

I would suggest a subtle difference in the Laws of each game, that in Rugby, a Ref can award a more flexible degree of ''interpretation'' of the Laws (sometimes it is just plain common sense) Football does not offer that, and it would seem, although Rugby Refs have to work within the Laws of the game, Football Refs are not allowed to apply that, as we see every week, at the top level, Football Refs are like robots (look at some of the Refs we see week in and week out - especially from abroad) ,sometimes, acting with fear, from pressure from the upper echelons of Footballs governing bodies.

Rugby Refs are helped through things like game ''management'' and ''materiality'' , and as I say the laws allow a Rugby Ref to apply ''common sense'' if the Laws allow it, in a game situation, Football Refs do not have that luxury.

Do not get me started on egos''s of people like Phil Dowd, who when booking someone,acts dismissively and likes to make a show of the process :(

It is not the Refs game, it is the players.

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It is surprising how the emphasis has changed over the years. At one time we would see an incident involving the referee once or twice but see the gaping miss from six yards with an open goal at his mercy ten or a dozen times.

Nowadays it seems the emphasis is on the referee''s mistakes and not on the player''s mistakes.

The big mistake was telling players they have to respect referees. Respect cannot be ordered or awarded, it must be earned.

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Good post, Crabby, especially the point about the rugby refs'' ability to interpret the laws.

Football managers got exactly what they deserved when they demanded ''consistency'', which is impossible to achieve and requires absurdly black and white rules like the one that got Ruddy sent off last week for an honest but late challenge. No way should that have been a red, but because of idiot managers bleating about ''consistency'', the ref''s right to decide whether it was deliberate has been removed.

The TV pundits have a lot to answer for. Part of the problem is that they are all ex-players, so they see the game from the same one-eyed perspecitve they did when they were playing.

Jeff Winter or Graham Poll should be regular pundits on MOTD. They''re both articulate and interesting (though I rarely agree with what Poll says), and they could give the refs'' point of view.

Oh, and part of the UEFA Pro coaching licence should involve 100 hours of refereeing. Would-be managers should be made to give something back to the amateur game, and learn how bloody hard it is.

And finally, anyone giving the ref lip, regardless of the howler he''s made, should get a straight red. If the ref is not in charge, the game is meaningless.

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A referee who has to make a split second decision does not share the same luxury

Adam what is your job? You say you would probably get the sack if you made mistakes like you think referees do...however when you work are you being watched by millions of people, could the decision you make ultimately be worth millions of pounds? No thought not

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There is also an inconsistency in the performance of the assistant referees on the lines. Some will flag vigorously, and we suffered one penalty from this, while others look away or pretend that they have seen nothing.

They ought to be in radio contact, and it should be mandatory for the ref to contact his relevant assistant. We have had one penalty given when the ref was some distance behind the play.

The other points at issue are the fact that the bigger clubs and grounds seem very likely to gain penalties at home, and not to concede, and also the theatrics which regularly seem to deceive refs. These will probably never be entirely eliminated, unless replay is permitted, but they could be reduced by a second viewpoint from the assistant at a different angle.

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The ignorance of the pundits on almost everything is extraordinary.

They will say, with no apparent shame, ''I don''t know much about Norwich'', or England''s next opponents. As if a couple of hours'' research is too much to expect for their million-pound salaries.

In that context, the fact that they don''t know the rules of the game they played professionally doesn''t seem that surprising...

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[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]The ignorance of the pundits on almost everything is extraordinary. They will say, with no apparent shame, ''I don''t know much about Norwich'', or England''s next opponents. As if a couple of hours'' research is too much to expect for their million-pound salaries. In that context, the fact that they don''t know the rules of the game they played professionally doesn''t seem that surprising...[/quote]

Good point. Pundits have no excuses with the amount of information available through the internet etc. It''s sheer laziness.

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[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]The ignorance of the pundits on almost everything is extraordinary. They will say, with no apparent shame, ''I don''t know much about Norwich'', or England''s next opponents. As if a couple of hours'' research is too much to expect for their million-pound salaries. In that context, the fact that they don''t know the rules of the game they played professionally doesn''t seem that surprising...[/quote]

They fall into a lot of the common misconceptions like rules about ''last man'' or ''raising your hands''. In fairness the rules are often tweaked slightly in the close seasons, and the rules now are very different to when Hanson etc played. 

 

Having said that the lack of research carried out is sometime shocking, Shearer is the worst; especially his comment about Hatem Ben Arfa when he said ''When has he come from? No one has ever heard of him'' despite this being a player who was regulary in the Champions League and had several French caps, he was also playing for a team that Shearer is suppose to be a supporter. I guess this is what happens when you employ people who have already earnt their millions and don''t really need to work anymore. 

 

Didn''t Lee Dixon get teased for knowing the names of some of the Slovenian players before Englands crucial World Cup game against them?

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This is something that really annoys me as a young coach and someone trying to make their way in the game.

I am a massive believer in the Respect campaign because i think it is vital.

For starters, the thing that most people misunderstand is that the Respect referee isn''t just for Referees, it covers referees, parents, coaches, players - the whole lot, to each other.

Refereeing is seen to be getting worse and in some respects i think this is true but it''s only because of the variables elsewhere.

Technology - not goal line but TV. One of the FA Skills Coaches said it perfectly couple of months back at an event "Referees get a split second to make a decision. Supporters get 30 angles and 10000 replays. It''s these replays that make everyone think they can do the job of a referee despite the massive difference in time.

TV - Match of the Day show every single bad decision on their show but don''t show the good ones, so people assume referees are getting worse everywhere and that they awful. Seeing Hansen, Shearer or whoever saying yea thats an awful decision or whatever makes people think they too can go and know exactly what they''re talking about with every decision when usually they don''t have a clue.

View - Most fans sit in elevated positions in the stadium or see the game on an elevated camera and things look differently from up there. The ref is in the middle of the action and sees things at a different angle. If a handball is by a player facing the crowd, DON''T expect the ref to see it, you can''t see through people!!

The referee him/herself - Yes the laws are there depicting what is a foul and what isn''t but in some cases it comes down to the referees discretion. Was there intent for the player or the ball? Was his hand out of the way? Was it a clear goalscoring opportunity? Some refs are more lenient and some are more strict and this is where differences come as well.. but you can''t change this as each situation and each referee is unique.

The fans - i ran the line for a college game and got so much abuse and threats from one team after i gave an offside decision because of the "second phase of play".. i was right but they weren''t because they didn''t understand the second phase of play. Therefore things that most people disagree with i just sit there and shake my head. People think they know the rules but they are a lot more complicated than people think!

It is the hardest job in football.. do we praise referees? Rarely. Do we criticise? Every week. The fact is they do so much good and we just ignore it. The only thing we notice of a referee is the bad part. Yes that''s part of the job but you need to respect the referee!!

There is a league system for refs, thats why they go from Prem to Championship and vice versa.. they are assessed near enough every game and this is why they move.

If we didn''t have them then we wouldn''t have the game.

So stop moaning about the referee and let them do their job. In relation to what you said about your job; do you have thousands of fans watching you do your job each week? No.

The respect campaign is GOOD! It needs people to get behind it, to understand WHY we need it.

I''ve probably missed a lot but i cba to write anymore.

Rant Over.

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[quote user="shiplee15"]This is something that really annoys me as a young coach and someone trying to make their way in the game. I am a massive believer in the Respect campaign because i think it is vital. For starters, the thing that most people misunderstand is that the Respect referee isn''t just for Referees, it covers referees, parents, coaches, players - the whole lot, to each other. Refereeing is seen to be getting worse and in some respects i think this is true but it''s only because of the variables elsewhere. Technology - not goal line but TV. One of the FA Skills Coaches said it perfectly couple of months back at an event "Referees get a split second to make a decision. Supporters get 30 angles and 10000 replays. It''s these replays that make everyone think they can do the job of a referee despite the massive difference in time. TV - Match of the Day show every single bad decision on their show but don''t show the good ones, so people assume referees are getting worse everywhere and that they awful. Seeing Hansen, Shearer or whoever saying yea thats an awful decision or whatever makes people think they too can go and know exactly what they''re talking about with every decision when usually they don''t have a clue. View - Most fans sit in elevated positions in the stadium or see the game on an elevated camera and things look differently from up there. The ref is in the middle of the action and sees things at a different angle. If a handball is by a player facing the crowd, DON''T expect the ref to see it, you can''t see through people!! The referee him/herself - Yes the laws are there depicting what is a foul and what isn''t but in some cases it comes down to the referees discretion. Was there intent for the player or the ball? Was his hand out of the way? Was it a clear goalscoring opportunity? Some refs are more lenient and some are more strict and this is where differences come as well.. but you can''t change this as each situation and each referee is unique. The fans - i ran the line for a college game and got so much abuse and threats from one team after i gave an offside decision because of the "second phase of play".. i was right but they weren''t because they didn''t understand the second phase of play. Therefore things that most people disagree with i just sit there and shake my head. People think they know the rules but they are a lot more complicated than people think! It is the hardest job in football.. do we praise referees? Rarely. Do we criticise? Every week. The fact is they do so much good and we just ignore it. The only thing we notice of a referee is the bad part. Yes that''s part of the job but you need to respect the referee!! There is a league system for refs, thats why they go from Prem to Championship and vice versa.. they are assessed near enough every game and this is why they move. If we didn''t have them then we wouldn''t have the game. So stop moaning about the referee and let them do their job. In relation to what you said about your job; do you have thousands of fans watching you do your job each week? No. The respect campaign is GOOD! It needs people to get behind it, to understand WHY we need it. I''ve probably missed a lot but i cba to write anymore. Rant Over.[/quote]

Very good post.

The bit I''ve highlighted for me hits the nail on the head - it all come down to an opinion

People keep going on about the need for cameras. well, the only thing they would be good for is deciding if the ball has wholly crossed the line - goal or no goal. Nothing else.

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FIFA is going to trail goal line technology, but I don''t think they will go the video route but more a sensor within the ball itself or a Hawkeye system than will automatically tell the ref if the ball has crossed the line.

 

The only way FIFA will accept technology is if it can be used at every level of the professional game - in England this means from Premier League to League Two. It is fine in the Prem when there are already loads of cameras in each stadium following the action, but even when you go down to the Championship (unless the game is being televised) most stadiums have one or possibly two camera positions. Clubs would have to pay for these cameras and the cameramen if the game wasn''t set to be broadcast - it is unrealistic to expect teams such as Barnet, Exeter, Shrewsbury etc to purchase enough cameras to cover every area of the pitch from mulitple angles and pay for all the cameramen. Just look at some of the highlights from League Two games, the camera is often set high in stands with pillars obscuring certain areas of the pitch, how would this footage help a ref determine anything?

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The problem with the ''Respect'' campaign is that what most people see is what''s in the Premiership, where criticism is endemic and rampant. Premiership referees universally turn a blind eye to all but the worst foul language and dissent – they can deal with it, it''s a high-pressure environment and players are bound to be angry and frustrated when there''s so much at stake. But what message does this filter down to grass-roots level? We see refs getting castigated on the TV, we see professional players surrounding referees and yelling abuse at them, yet on a Sunday morning in the park we are all supposed to behave as good as gold? It''s time the professional game started setting a proper example, so the millions of people who are exposed to professional football and its coverage start seeing the ''Respect'' campaign being adequately implemented. Sure, the fans are going to chant stuff at referees and get on their back, but they''re big enough to deal with that at the professional level. What we need is for more TV exposure regarding the rules, the correct application of the rules and positive remarks about referees when they get something right. And, most importantly, referees need to be given an edict from the authorities to stamp out dissent and foul language. If you publicly issue a directive saying that ANY dissent will result in an immediate yellow card, and enforce it stringently, players will soon get the message.Now, as for Norwich specifically, nothing personal against those fans who are screaming blue murder and saying ''we''ve been robbed in all three of our games'', but they are wrong because they''re not fully aware of the rules. Wigan – I personally don''t think it was a penalty, but then again the shout on the stroke of half time against Russell Martin WAS a penalty in my opinion, so that evened itself out. Plus, the important lesson to learn was not that ''Premiership refs are bent against the new boys'', but ''that''s what happens if you get caught in possession trying to be smart when you''re the last man''. Stoke – the foul was outside the area, but Walters would have had a clear goalscoring opportunity. Ruddy saved the penalty, so we actually lost nothing as a result of the officials'' misjudgement. Chelsea – it was a penalty, and whether Ramires would have got to the ball in time to put it into the empty net is a moot point. A yellow would have been the easy way out, but I can understand why the referee adjudged that the attacker would have had an opportunity to shoot on goal. Those are generally 50/50 and down to the discretion of the referee. I dare say that if you see Mike Jones give a penalty in the same circumstances later this season, it will also be a red card – as long as he is consistent with his interpretation of the laws, there''s no problem.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

FIFA is going to trail goal line technology, but I don''t think they will go the video route but more a sensor within the ball itself or a Hawkeye system than will automatically tell the ref if the ball has crossed the line.

 

The only way FIFA will accept technology is if it can be used at every level of the professional game - in England this means from Premier League to League Two. It is fine in the Prem when there are already loads of cameras in each stadium following the action, but even when you go down to the Championship (unless the game is being televised) most stadiums have one or possibly two camera positions. Clubs would have to pay for these cameras and the cameramen if the game wasn''t set to be broadcast - it is unrealistic to expect teams such as Barnet, Exeter, Shrewsbury etc to purchase enough cameras to cover every area of the pitch from mulitple angles and pay for all the cameramen. Just look at some of the highlights from League Two games, the camera is often set high in stands with pillars obscuring certain areas of the pitch, how would this footage help a ref determine anything?

[/quote]

Good post also, I''ve highlighted what I think should be the way forward. Cameras would be no use if there was a melee of players on the goal line it wouldn''t see the ball for the legs.

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The ref''s are alot stricter at youth level if any swearing or comments are directed at the officials. Last season, my team conceeded a penalty which wasn''t, and when they were about to take it, our defender said the ref needed glasses to a team-mate. He then got sent off and banned for three weeks.

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Ref''s need to be stricter at youth level - that way the kids learn that such behaviour will not be tolerated and hopefully deters it at a later level.

As a ref myself I''ve seen more senior refs give some crazy decisions, but as has been said, all are different - ultimately, decisions are made ''in the opinion of the referee'' and with so many different opinions, you''re always gonna get different decisions and out comes.

In my time, I''ve know I''ve had great games and shockers - but as it''s been said, you get one view, from where you''re standing and a split second to make a decision, and more often that not, if a ref isn''t convinced that it was a foul / handball / goal, then he won''t give it - especially difficult when reffing at lower levels in the Ang Com, Central and South Norfolk leagues etc on your own, with club assistants.

In all - I hope the ''Respect'' campaign continues to pick up support - I wish that the FA would allow top refs to speak after the match to convey their opinions and reasoning behind decisions - it would certainly help.

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[quote user="Barking Mad Barclay Boy"]after refereeing performances like that theres no way im respecting anything.[/quote]

 

Today was about corruption, did some Betting Shop deposit a large cheque in his bank account?

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If we cry so much about all this mistakes against us Im sure next game reffere will try to be much more sure that there is penalty or not!

I still belive that there is too easy given penalty''s in this league and Morison today never been a penalty as many others this days.

FIFA try to make game more atractive and with more goals to attract interest may be this is the key...

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I used to respect Mark Halsey, for the way he came back after suffering from cancer and the way he has conducted himself on the pitch but that went out of the window today. The way he favoured WBA was disgusting.Show me a copy of the FA''s Respect campaign and I will wipe my @rse with it.

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Don''t know if anyone saw the QPR - Chelsea match this afternoon, but if the "Respect" campaign means anything then Chelsea should be fined a large sum of money for their behaviour this afternoon.  The first red card may have been debateable, but you can''t do what Raul Meireles did and make the "how much money have you been paid?" gesture to the referee without being punished.  Ditto David Luis, John Terry, AVB.  What a horrible club with delusions of grandeur.

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