You get promoted because of your strikers... you stay up because of your defence.

[InLambertWeTrust! 0]

With the greatest of respect to Holty and the other forwards I believe the above to be so true.Look at Blackpool (as one example)- they gained promotion playing attacking football but failed to stay up because they simply cannot defend.Instead of looking at attacking players I believe Lambert will invest in our defence.Elliot Ward for example has had some very good moments this season- the late late tackle against Forest springs to mind but he has also had some shockers - Reading at home when he just attempted a half-arsed nudge into Kebe. I think this sums up our defenders -some good games but some bad as well (I''m not blaming them you understand just trying to explore where we need to strengthen)  except Russ Martin who has been superb in every game.My defence for next year would be:                                                      Tierney  Whitbread  Barnett  Pants man                                                                              RuddyI wouldnt change things dramatically but I would maybe buy another goal keeper, a new full back and maybe a centre half for back up/first time contention.What say you?ON THE BALL CITY!

[Hog 0]

I think PL will strengthen all four areas, but the existing team will get their chance, much the same as when we were promoted from League 1.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,856]

We definitely need a new centre back- one who can come in and instantly be the star man. This should be our priority, in my opinion.Ideally he would partner Whitbread. I have more confidence in him as a Premier League centre back than either Barnett or Ward.

[Yobocop 1,105]

Whitbread and Ward both deserve a chance but I think we need a little bit more quality...someone of the Roger Johnson mould would be good although I realise he may be out of our price range...we have to look at someone like Morgan at Forest who was exceptional I thought last season.

Barnett will be good enough just about, I''m hoping Tierney and Martin will both have enough about them next season attacking but they both must work on their defensive game to compete in the Premiership.

We will almost certainly need an experienced standby keeper, someone of the Stephen Bywater mould.

[Kolin Kob 0]

[quote user="CT"]With the greatest of respect to Holty and the other forwards I believe the above to be so true.Look at Blackpool (as one example)- they gained promotion playing attacking football but failed to stay up because they simply cannot defend.Instead of looking at attacking players I believe Lambert will invest in our defence.Elliot Ward for example has had some very good moments this season- the late late tackle against Forest springs to mind but he has also had some shockers - Reading at home when he just attempted a half-arsed nudge into Kebe. I think this sums up our defenders -some good games but some bad as well (I''m not blaming them you understand just trying to explore where we need to strengthen)  except Russ Martin who has been superb in every game.My defence for next year would be:                                                      Tierney  Whitbread  Barnett  Pants man                                                                              RuddyI wouldnt change things dramatically but I would maybe buy another goal keeper, a new full back and maybe a centre half for back up/first time contention.What say you?ON THE BALL CITY![/quote]I think Whitbread has looked a better player when he''s been with Barnett, and vice versa. Looked totally assured. I am sure there''ll be another centre-back brought in, probably one with a bit more experience for when things get rocky. Don''t think it will be a big name though.

[crabbycanary 2]

I would want a top notch centre half and would make Barnett and Whitbread next in line, with Ward 4th choice.

[Mahogany 0]

I don''t think your premise is right, sure you can go up because of your attack and we certainly scored a lot of goals, but QPR would probably point more to their 25 clean sheets than their 71 goals.

I''d say you get promoted because of your first 11, you stay up because of your squad. Blackpool fit this too, strong at the start but fade away because they couldn''t sustain their form, and they couldn''t do that because they didn''t have enough depth to their squad.

We need to have at least 2 players for every position that are good enough to play premiership football, at the moment we have 11-15. Basically we need another entire team of players to challenge and cover the one that got us up.

[Thisisbabyish 0]

Gunter Barnett Upson Martin

Tierney

Whitbread

[Bill 1,788]

Mahogany has it pretty much spot on. You can have the worse defence in the world as long as the forwards are scoring enough to equal what has gone in with the odd game where they score more. 38 games at that and you will have 40 points plus. Check the table and you''ll find Brum who conceded 58 goals below many other who conceded far more - WBA 71, goals conceded, 11th place. WBA score far more goals than Brum did. The defence do not play alone. The team needsc to be good enough right the way through, with as said by Mahaogany strength in depth. Lambert pretty much did this with our squad over the last two seasons. There was two players for every place. The debate then really is,  who out of the current ''starting 11 will be the reserve player and who will be first choice ?

[John 0]

[quote user="CT"]With the greatest of respect to Holty and the other forwards I believe the above to be so true.Look at Blackpool (as one example)- they gained promotion playing attacking football but failed to stay up because they simply cannot defend.[/quote]I gander you''ve read this, and taken it as gospel then...You''re opening statement, as far as i''m concerned, is totally unfounded, holds no weight in any respect, and looking at the tables of this year alone i believe it is not only easily dispelled, but turned on its head (and i''m getting tired of pundits batting out the same cliche''s in their analysis'' with respect to this utter misconception).When it comes to promotion, QPR in the Championship, of course the eventual Champions, scored a mass of 71 goals - 7th highest in the league, outside of the grouping around 6th and 3rd (in which only 1 goal separates the 4 teams) by a relatively big margin. Leeds had those strikers, ending the season with 81 goals (2nd in the league), and yet they finished in 7th place. Watford had those strikers (one in particular - the 20+ a season striker that would lead to this promotion challenge i assume?), ending the season with 77 goals (4th in the league), yet they finished in 14th place.By the end of the season it was quite clearly the defence of QPR that won them promotion; the jobs that consisted of forward play had merely been fulfilled, not excelled in by the fashion exhibited by the 6 teams above them in this respect.As for staying up, one would be right in saying Blackpool impressed in this department, scoring as many as Tottenham in 5th, with their defence ultimately their downfall. However, the all too common mistake some have made is that this has set some sort of precedent, when both West Ham (18h bottom scorers) and Birmingham (20th) consisted of 2/3''s of the 3 lowest scorers. Whilst West Ham''s defensive record was also fairly abysmal (although they did best West Brom''s, the team that finished 11th), Birmingham managed to equal the defensive record of the team that finished 9th (Aston Villa).

The ultimate conclusion of this is that we should look to achieve a sort of parity, so that our final position in the Premier League is not made in spite of (or thanks to) a gaping hole in our team (as was the primary flaw in our last venture to the top division). It is a necessity that we look at our team for what it is, not at Blackpool''s side, or anyone elses for that matter, in some absurdly abstract sense in respect to our own side (that in essence makes no sense).Any talk of enhancing only a single department in the team, because of some illusionary perception concerning the ''status quo'', is nothing but trivial and mindless conjecture.As much as the naivety of this thread baffles me, it again gripes with me that people actually get paid to spout all this b0**0x time and time again.

[scrappy33 0]

Your wrong mate, its not just the defence its every player on the pitch that will keep you up, look at Birmingham, their defence was solid but it was up top where they struggled.

[Boyo 0]

There is all this talk about which striker to buy but I think the defence should be the priority.  I''m happy with Ruddy, R.Martin and Barnett and that is it.  I think we need another real top quality centre back to play with Barnett as I think Whitbread will be good enough as cover and Ward can be 4th choice and can stand in when needed.   As for the left back position it''s a tough one.  I really like Tierney but the way he dives in for tackles and goes in like a bull in a china shop worries me.  I think your standard run of the mill Premiership winger could give him problems and I think we could do with getting in another solid left back.

 

Promotion by strikers, stay up because of the defence, which ever one is right I believe you should always build from the back.

[Jez 0]

I agree with John that the whole premise is flawed, but I also agree with the article he linked, which in essence says "we need to be solid everywhere".

Problem is there is no surefire way of staying in the Premier League else everyone would do it but you can always find teams which did it one way or another.

Reading and Hull (last time they were promoted) both kept similar teams to the ones that took them up and had very successful first seasons. Then Hull bought in the big wages and failed, and Reading didn''t and failed. What can we learn there? Not much

I do think that we need to strengthen our team, just as every team needs to in every summer break, but I also believe that the 5 year plan we had announced earlier this season which said (if I remember correctly) it includes one season in the PL followed by relegation and then a push to get back. Whatever we do we can''t make survival the be all and end all and when/if we come back down we''re in a strong enough position to mount another challenge.

Eurgh, sorry about the rambling, I''m stuck in the library doing revision.

[paul moy 235]

I don''t agree that Blackpool got relegated due to poor defence. Their main problem was the undermining of their team-spirit in the January transfer-window with the Charlie Adam on-off transfer saga. Without that unfortunate major distraction, Blackpool would surely have mustered the extra point or so needed to stay up.  

I would also argue that Birmingham had a good defence, but that did not keep them up, because they could not score goals.  Thus, the OP''s assertions are flawed.

[William Darby 0]

You get promoted because of your strikers... you stay up because of your defence.Not quite imo.  Winning 3-2 is much better than 1-0.  Simple reason, for 80 minutes (roughly) a team was to be relegated from the Prem just because they''d scored less goals than the team above them.

[James Kent 0]

I certainly see where you are coming from but don''t quite agree. I think you need a striker to score some goals as well as a tight defence.

Take a look at my article on five things I think we need to get right to survive next season:

http://www.footballfancast.com/2011/05/football-blogs/five-things-norwich-must-do-right-to-ensure-premier-league-survival

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Boyo"]

 I think we need another real top quality centre back to play with Barnett as I think Whitbread will be good enough as cover and Ward can be 4th choice and can stand in when needed.  

[/quote]

Not that simple though, is it?

 

And I can''t see Ward going from being 1st choice this season to 4th choice next. I''d be surprised if he doesn''t get the chance he deserves.

 

[Smudger 0]

What a rubbish cliche...Didn''t Brum go down because they couldn''t stick the ball in the net CT, and didn''t Wolves stay up because of they scored just ONE GOAL when they needed it???As for Barnett and Whitbread starting the season as our centre-halves, I am glad that Lambert is our Manager and you are not.  Ward is by far the most accomplished centre-half that we have at the club.  He is the one who controls our back four and leads them as a unit.  He is also by far the best at making us play football from the back (something which should be of more importance the higher up the football pyramid you go).  I would say that with us possibly needing another centre-half at the club through the course of the coming season, that Barnett (although doing nothing wrong for us) will be lucky to remain as first reserve for a starting slot.  If we sign somebody like Roger Johnson (as I would like) then I think that Barnett wouldn''t even get a place on the bench.  For me Whitbread and Ward made the centre half slots their own over the last few months of the season (just as I said they would do).  Barnett will realise that he has a massive job on his hands to displace either of those, plus a possible new signing for a starting place come the start of next season.Barnett''s chance will come again when we have injuries, or through players being suspended.That doesn''t mean that he is rubbish, just that he will have to wait his chance now - as Chris Martin will hae to also!

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Boyo"]

There is all this talk about which striker to buy but I think the defence should be the priority.  I''m happy with Ruddy, R.Martin and Barnett and that is it.  I think we need another real top quality centre back to play with Barnett as I think Whitbread will be good enough as cover and Ward can be 4th choice and can stand in when needed.   As for the left back position it''s a tough one.  I really like Tierney but the way he dives in for tackles and goes in like a bull in a china shop worries me.  I think your standard run of the mill Premiership winger could give him problems and I think we could do with getting in another solid left back.

 

Promotion by strikers, stay up because of the defence, which ever one is right I believe you should always build from the back.

[/quote]Strange that, as those would be the main concerns that I have with our defence upon winning promotion.We definitely need cover for Martin and probably somebody that will at least challenge Martin very strongly for the right back slot.  If not an established right back with premiership experience, a signing from a top Championship team, or a youngster from a top team with a view to a permanent deal as he wants first team football.Barnett is 3rd choice of what we have at the moment - Whitbread and Ward took their chance when it was there and it is Barnett who has to sit and wait for his chance now.  I am hoping that we will sign another centre half which will push Barnett further down the pecking order.Ruddy - everybody is expecting us to sign a keeper that will at least challenge him for a place in the team.  For me I would be very surprised if this was not a priority on Lambert''s summer shopping list.

[InLambertWeTrust! 0]

Obviously my ''rubbish cliche'' doesnt apply to every single team...

 

What I look back on is the amount of teams that go up because of a great strikeforce (and yes a solid defence as well) but go down because they cant defend for sh*t.

I hope that we improve all areas of the side but was just making the point that defence will be critical next year as some of our defending this year has been abysmal.

 

ON THE BALL CITY

[Aggy 766]

I think you''ve got to have more of a balance, of course. The thing is, in the championship, we had the attack to score plenty. And the opposition were usually not good enough to put any more than a goal or two past us, so we could often win games despite not keeping clean sheets.

In the prem it will be much harder to do that. Firstly, we aren''t going to be scoring as many as we have this year. Secondly, if we defend like we have done at times this season we won''t only be conceding one or two, we''ll be conceding 3,4 or 5. And winning 2-1 is a lot easier than trying to win 6-5!

I''ve seen people saying Whitbread first choice next season, and whilst I don''t get to every game, he''s looked the worst player on the pitch at the large majority of games I''ve seen him in. Barnett and a new signing for me. Ward backup, with Whitbread next in line.

But I actually think the most important signing we COULD make would be a defence coach who knows what they''re doing. I mean the amount of goals we conceded from set pieces and/or long balls over the top where we just failed to deal with it, and because the two centre halves were too far apart, it just suggests to me that we don''t work on it very well in training. So maybe that is something to look at.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Aggy"]I think you''ve got to have more of a balance, of course. The thing is, in the championship, we had the attack to score plenty. And the opposition were usually not good enough to put any more than a goal or two past us, so we could often win games despite not keeping clean sheets.

In the prem it will be much harder to do that. Firstly, we aren''t going to be scoring as many as we have this year. Secondly, if we defend like we have done at times this season we won''t only be conceding one or two, we''ll be conceding 3,4 or 5. And winning 2-1 is a lot easier than trying to win 6-5!

I''ve seen people saying Whitbread first choice next season, and whilst I don''t get to every game, he''s looked the worst player on the pitch at the large majority of games I''ve seen him in. Barnett and a new signing for me. Ward backup, with Whitbread next in line.

But I actually think the most important signing we COULD make would be a defence coach who knows what they''re doing. I mean the amount of goals we conceded from set pieces and/or long balls over the top where we just failed to deal with it, and because the two centre halves were too far apart, it just suggests to me that we don''t work on it very well in training. So maybe that is something to look at.[/quote]You mean like Ian Culverhouse???  [:^)]

[norfolkchance1 0]

Agreed Wes Morgan would be a good addition to squad. He can step out with ball at his feet and link defence and midfield quite well.

Word of warning though Youl Mawene and Claude Davis looked good for Billy Davies at Preston and were never same again when he wasn''t their manager after they moved on. Maybe it is just how players fit in to his team.

[Aggy 766]

Well obviously not Smudger. Just because he was a quality defender doesn''t mean he''s necessarily a brilliant defensive coach. He''s obviously doing a great job as Lambert''s right hand man, but when you defend set pieces as bad as us, it''s not just that the players are crap. Look at any Allardyce team - can have some of the least talented footballers around, but he drilled them from set pieces rigorously and they usually come off alright.

Some of the goals we concede you can''t do a lot about, but some of them could have been stopped quite easily just by a bit of work on the training pitch (ie; set pieces, centre halves being too far apart, two players going for the same header, or none at all, basically organisation and knowing who is doing what - that''s not necessarily how good a player is, it''s how well organised you are as a defensive unit).

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="norfolkchance1"]Agreed Wes Morgan would be a good addition to squad. He can step out with ball at his feet and link defence and midfield quite well.

Word of warning though Youl Mawene and Claude Davis looked good for Billy Davies at Preston and were never same again when he wasn''t their manager after they moved on. Maybe it is just how players fit in to his team.[/quote]These people touting Wes Morgan as a possible signing are having a laugh aren''t they?27 years old and never played at a higher level than what he is currently at.  Ward, Whitbread and Barnett are all better than him and if we are going to bring another centre half in then I would hope that it would be somebody who was goiung to better what we already have at the club.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Aggy"]Well obviously not Smudger. Just because he was a quality defender doesn''t mean he''s necessarily a brilliant defensive coach. He''s obviously doing a great job as Lambert''s right hand man, but when you defend set pieces as bad as us, it''s not just that the players are crap. Look at any Allardyce team - can have some of the least talented footballers around, but he drilled them from set pieces rigorously and they usually come off alright.

Some of the goals we concede you can''t do a lot about, but some of them could have been stopped quite easily just by a bit of work on the training pitch (ie; set pieces, centre halves being too far apart, two players going for the same header, or none at all, basically organisation and knowing who is doing what - that''s not necessarily how good a player is, it''s how well organised you are as a defensive unit).[/quote]Fair points that you make Aggy, but who is likely to be any better at coaching the defense than Culverhouse?  Afterall, Lambert praises Culverhouse highly and if you had ever sat near Culverhouse then I am sure you would know that he is very strict with the players.  He obviously knows what he is talking about defensively, but when he was a player for us we also had a team that played on the front foot, often hoping that we would score mo9re than the opposition.  I think that we now have a team that plays in the same way as Culverhouse did.  The defence pushes up with our narrow midfield which means that they often switch off at silly moments (set pieces) or get caught by teams on the break and make errors when trying to cover ground.  The facts and figures of the amount of goals we conceeded and even looking at the errors themselves do no tell the full story however.  I am a MASSIVE fan of Elliot Ward and I believe that he is the best centre half we have had at the club since at least the days of Newsome and Polston... maybe even longer than that.  What I think that most people miss with him is the organisation that he brings to our defence (something which I will agree with you often looks like it is lacking) and also that he is always willing to try and hold on to the ball and play his way out of trouble from the back (something which will be ever more important to us next season, rather than us humping the ball out and presenting QUALITY OPPOSITION with another opportunity to attack us at will).So YES I can see that you have some points with what you say appears to be lacking from our team, but would say that it is more down to the players themselves than anything going wrong with the coaching.  I don''t think that we could get a better defensive coach in than we already have in Culverhouse.

[Boyo 0]

[quote user="Smudger"]What a rubbish cliche...

Didn''t Brum go down because they couldn''t stick the ball in the net CT, and didn''t Wolves stay up because of they scored just ONE GOAL when they needed it???

As for Barnett and Whitbread starting the season as our centre-halves, I am glad that Lambert is our Manager and you are not.  Ward is by far the most accomplished centre-half that we have at the club.  He is the one who controls our back four and leads them as a unit.  He is also by far the best at making us play football from the back (something which should be of more importance the higher up the football pyramid you go).  I would say that with us possibly needing another centre-half at the club through the course of the coming season, that Barnett (although doing nothing wrong for us) will be lucky to remain as first reserve for a starting slot.  If we sign somebody like Roger Johnson (as I would like) then I think that Barnett wouldn''t even get a place on the bench.  For me Whitbread and Ward made the centre half slots their own over the last few months of the season (just as I said they would do).  Barnett will realise that he has a massive job on his hands to displace either of those, plus a possible new signing for a starting place come the start of next season.

Barnett''s chance will come again when we have injuries, or through players being suspended.

That doesn''t mean that he is rubbish, just that he will have to wait his chance now - as Chris Martin will hae to also!
[/quote]

 

And that is why I am glad YOU are not manager!!!!!  If Barnett didn''t get injured then I dont think Ward would have got a look in.

[Legend Iwan 30]

CT, what was the reason we got relegated last time we were in the Prem? Almost everyone will tell you if we had got Ashton in the summer we would have stayed up.

Yes, keeping a tight backline is desirable, however, if we can''t score we''re never going to win a game.

[Boyo 0]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Boyo"]

There is all this talk about which striker to buy but I think the defence should be the priority.  I''m happy with Ruddy, R.Martin and Barnett and that is it.  I think we need another real top quality centre back to play with Barnett as I think Whitbread will be good enough as cover and Ward can be 4th choice and can stand in when needed.   As for the left back position it''s a tough one.  I really like Tierney but the way he dives in for tackles and goes in like a bull in a china shop worries me.  I think your standard run of the mill Premiership winger could give him problems and I think we could do with getting in another solid left back.

 

Promotion by strikers, stay up because of the defence, which ever one is right I believe you should always build from the back.

[/quote]

Strange that, as those would be the main concerns that I have with our defence upon winning promotion.

We definitely need cover for Martin and probably somebody that will at least challenge Martin very strongly for the right back slot. 
If not an established right back with premiership experience, a signing from a top Championship team, or a youngster from a top team with a view to a permanent deal as he wants first team football.

Barnett is 3rd choice of what we have at the moment - Whitbread and Ward took their chance when it was there and it is Barnett who has to sit and wait for his chance now.  I am hoping that we will sign another centre half which will push Barnett further down the pecking order.

Ruddy - everybody is expecting us to sign a keeper that will at least challenge him for a place in the team.  For me I would be very surprised if this was not a priority on Lambert''s summer shopping list.
[/quote]

 

Whilst I am happy with Martin I too would still like some cover for him.

 

I really rate Barnett and would not have him as 4th choice because I really don''t rate Elliott Ward.  Ward may deserve a chance but there is no place for sentiment in football.

 

I see potential in Ruddy.  He has had an awkward season but now he has a full season under his belt I expect him to grow into a very good keeper.

[Boyo 0]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="norfolkchance1"]Agreed Wes Morgan would be a good addition to squad. He can step out with ball at his feet and link defence and midfield quite well. Word of warning though Youl Mawene and Claude Davis looked good for Billy Davies at Preston and were never same again when he wasn''t their manager after they moved on. Maybe it is just how players fit in to his team.[/quote]

These people touting Wes Morgan as a possible signing are having a laugh aren''t they?

27 years old and never played at a higher level than what he is currently at.  Ward, Whitbread and Barnett are all better than him and if we are going to bring another centre half in then I would hope that it would be somebody who was goiung to better what we already have at the club.
[/quote]

 

Now there is one thing we do agree on!!!!