Words to strike fear in your heart

[Mister Chops 7]

If I had to order our centre backs based on the confidence I have in them, I''d have to go:1. Doc2. Askou3. Spillane4. Nelson

[blahblahblah 2]

It''s funny how we''ve gone 450 minutes and conceded 1 goal, that being a pen wasn''t it ?  And yet all the talk here is about defensive frailty.You couldn''t make it up really could you ?

[macdougalls perm 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]It''s funny how we''ve gone 450 minutes and conceded 1 goal, that being a pen wasn''t it ?  And yet all the talk here is about defensive frailty.

You couldn''t make it up really could you ?
[/quote]

Completely agreed! [:)]

[Ivana_rubyatitz 6]

When did facts ever get in the way of a good moan on here though blah?

[ron obvious 1,502]

Re-examining the Carlisle highlights, is the problem that Doc stands about a foot too close to his opponents? In the free kick incident, he stretches out an arm - letting his oppo know exactly where he is - so Doc can''t react quickly enough to get out of the way when he is backed into. If he was a touch further back he would have been able to step forward,  get a better leap & make it obvious what the other player was doing. Easier in principle than practice I know, but I do wonder if he does mark so tightly because he worries too much about being turned.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Pboro_Canary"]When did facts ever get in the way of a good moan on here though blah?[/quote]Never a truer word spoken Pboro [;)]

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="ron obvious"]Re-examining the Carlisle highlights, is the problem that Doc stands about a foot too close to his opponents? In the free kick incident, he stretches out an arm - letting his oppo know exactly where he is - so Doc can''t react quickly enough to get out of the way when he is backed into. If he was a touch further back he would have been able to step forward,  get a better leap & make it obvious what the other player was doing. Easier in principle than practice I know, but I do wonder if he does mark so tightly because he worries too much about being turned.

[/quote]There is no problem, it''s the way he plays, if you look at John Terry or most other Premiership players they will do the same.  He doesn''t do it because he''s slow, or frail, or ginger, or a donkey, he does it because it''s the most effective way to stop forwards, and 90% of the time he will be given the benefit of the doubt.It''s called playing the percentages.

[7rew 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="ron obvious"]Re-examining the Carlisle highlights, is the problem that Doc stands about a foot too close to his opponents? In the free kick incident, he stretches out an arm - letting his oppo know exactly where he is - so Doc can''t react quickly enough to get out of the way when he is backed into. If he was a touch further back he would have been able to step forward,  get a better leap & make it obvious what the other player was doing. Easier in principle than practice I know, but I do wonder if he does mark so tightly because he worries too much about being turned.

[/quote]There is no problem, it''s the way he plays, if you look at John Terry or most other Premiership players they will do the same.  He doesn''t do it because he''s slow, or frail, or ginger, or a donkey, he does it because it''s the most effective way to stop forwards, and 90% of the time he will be given the benefit of the doubt.It''s called playing the percentages.[/quote]And of the other 10% of the time he will give away a FK 5% and get a FK 5%.  So 1 free kick against for every 20 attacks that get stopped by this method. Not a bad return really.

[The Butler 0]

So we are not conceding goals now which makes him great.

We were conceding like a drain last year which made him poor.

 

Yep always said he was at best a third division defender and the last few seasons has been out of his depth.

 

Can, based on your views, we agree on that?

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="The Butler"]

So we are not conceding goals now which makes him great.

We were conceding like a drain last year which made him poor.

 

Yep always said he was at best a third division defender and the last few seasons has been out of his depth.

 

Can, based on your views, we agree on that?

[/quote]I wouldn''t agree with that, and presumably neither would the fans who voted him 3rd place in the Barry Butler last year.  In a season when plenty of players went missing and/or couldn''t be bothered, Doc never stopped trying.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="The Butler"]

So we are not conceding goals now which makes him great.

We were conceding like a drain last year which made him poor.

 

Yep always said he was at best a third division defender and the last few seasons has been out of his depth.

 

Can, based on your views, we agree on that?

[/quote]

No I don''t agree with that Butler. I blamed the midfield more than the defence last year and I give them more credit than the defence this year. I haven''t seen much if any difference in Doherty''s performances over the two seasons. However in both cases the defence has been better when he''s played.

Can you agree with that?

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="ron obvious"]

Re-examining the Carlisle highlights, is the problem that Doc stands about a foot too close to his opponents? In the free kick incident, he stretches out an arm - letting his oppo know exactly where he is - so Doc can''t react quickly enough to get out of the way when he is backed into. If he was a touch further back he would have been able to step forward,  get a better leap & make it obvious what the other player was doing. Easier in principle than practice I know, but I do wonder if he does mark so tightly because he worries too much about being turned.


[/quote]

I want him to stand close. Players like Dobie don''t and that''s why they back into him and foul him to try and gain an advantage. I want our centreback to stop the opposition from having space to play in even if it means they concede the odd free kick. However it seems the refs see what''s going on even if The Docs own fans don''t.

 

[hogesar 9,672]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I know it''s about The Doc. I have been posting about The Doc. It''s my opinion that he has been our best centre half since we were relegated from the Premiership. It''s not his or my fault that we never got better. He is an ugly footballer who is awkward and clumsy looking. His mistakes stay in the memory. I have seen more of them than most, the worst being that New Years Day at Selhurst when he was caught on the ball by Kuqi. I have posted all this on here constantly including describing that incident on more than one occasion. However, he was our centreback at a time the whole team has been cr*p and that''s certainly not his fault. It''s no coincidence that now we are playing as a team with protection from the midfield and defending from the front The Doc hasn''t made so many mistakes. We are tighter at the back with Doc/Askou than we were with Nelson/Askou and with Spillane at right back we began to look really solid.

I don''t see anything different in Docs personal performance over the last four games than I saw earlier in the season or last season. What have you seen different that''s made him look a better player. He is what he is and you get what you get. Good stopper in this league, definitely capable of stepping up to the Champs,  but Premier League? You''re ''avin a laugh!

 

[/quote]Fantastic post, and almost agree with all of it, apart from ''best centre half since we were relegated from the Premiership''. I think i''d agree if i look at his best couple of seasons, but not at the other. Saying that, he''s a capable defender most of the time, is not quite as slow as everyone makes out (although he does get turned too easily sometimes...maybe why he uses the ''bear hug''? [;)]) and at the moment, is probably our best defender on our books.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"]

So we are not conceding goals now which makes him great.

We were conceding like a drain last year which made him poor.

 

Yep always said he was at best a third division defender and the last few seasons has been out of his depth.

 

Can, based on your views, we agree on that?

[/quote]

No I don''t agree with that Butler. I blamed the midfield more than the defence last year and I give them more credit than the defence this year. I haven''t seen much if any difference in Doherty''s performances over the two seasons. However in both cases the defence has been better when he''s played.

Can you agree with that?

 

[/quote]

Difference in performance.

Now lets see last year was against 2nd division this year against 3rd division.

As I said a decent 3rd division defender. Poor at the start of the season, Lambert, who we agree is a good manager, dropped him.

Got his backside into gear and looks a bit better, but so he should. Your Idol Worthy bought him as a PREM defender.

At last he has reached his level, with a little pressure from the manager to bring out "his best".

I will agree at present he and Askou are doing a good job, lets hope they continue, with the help of a far better disciplined midfield, to do so.

To say that the fans voted him player of the season says more about the "fans" than about him. Remember those same "fans" voted for Croft last year!

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"]

So we are not conceding goals now which makes him great.

We were conceding like a drain last year which made him poor.

 

Yep always said he was at best a third division defender and the last few seasons has been out of his depth.

 

Can, based on your views, we agree on that?

[/quote]

No I don''t agree with that Butler. I blamed the midfield more than the defence last year and I give them more credit than the defence this year. I haven''t seen much if any difference in Doherty''s performances over the two seasons. However in both cases the defence has been better when he''s played.

Can you agree with that?

 

[/quote]

Difference in performance.

Now lets see last year was against 2nd division this year against 3rd division.

As I said a decent 3rd division defender. Poor at the start of the season, Lambert, who we agree is a good manager, dropped him.

Got his backside into gear and looks a bit better, but so he should. Your Idol Worthy bought him as a PREM defender.

At last he has reached his level, with a little pressure from the manager to bring out "his best".

I will agree at present he and Askou are doing a good job, lets hope they continue, with the help of a far better disciplined midfield, to do so.

To say that the fans voted him player of the season says more about the "fans" than about him. Remember those same "fans" voted for Croft last year!

[/quote]It seems from looking through this thread that you are one of the few who thinks this. Didn''t Doc actually win player of the year when we were in the championship ?And what part of 1 goal conceded in 450 minutes are you unhappy with ?The all strikes me as a small collection of "pub know-it-alls" falling over each other to get in first with their "doubts" so that they can have a swipe after the Leeds game, when the slow-motion action replays will take 30 seconds to show 2 seconds that "cost us the game"...

[Bury Yellow 2]

Totally agree Butler.

At best he''s a third div defender. Fair play, he''s played OK since his return. The best thing that happened to the Doc was the captaincy taken away from him. Amongst other things, a skipper he ''aint.

I just hope all you pro Doc''s'' out there are correct because i can see him costing us vital points if he''s in the team for too long.

I do, however, have great respect for Lambert and will trust his judgement completely

[Woman in the Stands (WITS) 0]

Personally I think the words ''and we would love to welcome back Robert Chase to the board at Carrow Road, with Bryan Hamilton as manager, Fernando Derveld to boost the team and Joey Barton to do club PR would be more worrying.

Doc''s performance has improved since Lambert gave him space to think. Overall, the whole team''s performance has got loads better. Success breeds success and everyone will try harder, then the team will play as a team, which in turn allows each player to perform the role they are there to do on the pitch rather than having to cover/watch everyone else to make sure they''re doing the right thing: upward spiral.

Then they don''t make the kind of huge mistakes which were happening during the last 2 seasons ie seeing a team-mate make a mistake, try and rectify that then make their own mistake which often proved costly: downward spiral.

[Houston Canary 0]

 It''s funny in an odd way (and oh how I wish it was instead funny in a "ha ha" sort of way) how defenders of the Dork say his detractors are know-nothings which implies that they are know-it-alls.  It is hard to believe he was rejecting contract offeres left right and center during his holdout 2 summers ago, and there was even word he was looking at the MLS.  I''ve said it before, and I''ll say it again, nobody outside of the NCFC world seems to rate the guy. Yes, he has done well the last few games, but he has not been on the team for just a few games. He has been with us through 2 relegations.  Now he is shining, so as Butler says, he seems to have found his level.

[Mello Yello 2,293]

Has any club shown any real interest in the Doc?....And I mean, any club.

[Mook 0]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]Has any club shown any real interest in the Doc?....And I mean, any club.[/quote]That''s quite difficult to tell, when most "interest" that we hear about is either journalists or the players agent talking a load of squit.

[Camuldonum 0]

On behalf of Colchester United I agree with those who criticise Doherty.  Your defence should be immediately strengthened by the presence of both Nelson and preferably Otsemobor (assuming the latter is supposed to be in defence).[:O]

Doherty out!

[Dronny Canary 0]

[quote user="Houston Canary"] It''s funny in an odd way (and oh how I wish it was instead funny in a "ha ha" sort of way) how defenders of the Dork say his detractors are know-nothings which implies that they are know-it-alls.  It is hard to believe he was rejecting contract offeres left right and center during his holdout 2 summers ago, and there was even word he was looking at the MLS.  I''ve said it before, and I''ll say it again, nobody outside of the NCFC world seems to rate the guy. Yes, he has done well the last few games, but he has not been on the team for just a few games. He has been with us through 2 relegations.  Now he is shining, so as Butler says, he seems to have found his level.[/quote]

I''m a bit confused (not for the first time!).  Is traying to buy a player the only way that a club can show that they "rate" someone?  I''m sure that Lambert "rates" Wayne Rooney but I don''t recall a recent bid for him.  In fact I don''t recall reading of any recent bids for Rooney from anyone so I suppose that this makes him a pathetic liability as well.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="Dronny Canary"]

[quote user="Houston Canary"] It''s funny in an odd way (and oh how I wish it was instead funny in a "ha ha" sort of way) how defenders of the Dork say his detractors are know-nothings which implies that they are know-it-alls.  It is hard to believe he was rejecting contract offeres left right and center during his holdout 2 summers ago, and there was even word he was looking at the MLS.  I''ve said it before, and I''ll say it again, nobody outside of the NCFC world seems to rate the guy. Yes, he has done well the last few games, but he has not been on the team for just a few games. He has been with us through 2 relegations.  Now he is shining, so as Butler says, he seems to have found his level.[/quote]

I''m a bit confused (not for the first time!).  Is traying to buy a player the only way that a club can show that they "rate" someone?  I''m sure that Lambert "rates" Wayne Rooney but I don''t recall a recent bid for him.  In fact I don''t recall reading of any recent bids for Rooney from anyone so I suppose that this makes him a pathetic liability as well.

[/quote]

No but he didn''t sit all summer with no contract waiting for someone to come and get him either did he?

Blah read my post and stop trying to put words in that I have not written!

At the moment he is playing quite well at his now found level. AFTER being dropped by our agreed good new mananger and a boot given to his rear end to get him moving. Crook stated last night that Doc was as good as gone. His effort in the RESERVES coupled with injuries to other players, has given him a chance. He has taken that chance and good for him.

He is one of the better CB''s we have at present. That does not make him brilliant, more a statement about what we have been left with. As I said he was bought as a PREM defender.

IF he was any good he would have been head hunted a season or three ago, but no one wants him.

While he keeps playing to the reasonable standard that he is at present GOOD and lets hope it lasts!

 

[Dronny Canary 0]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="Dronny Canary"]

[quote user="Houston Canary"] It''s funny in an odd way (and oh how I wish it was instead funny in a "ha ha" sort of way) how defenders of the Dork say his detractors are know-nothings which implies that they are know-it-alls.  It is hard to believe he was rejecting contract offeres left right and center during his holdout 2 summers ago, and there was even word he was looking at the MLS.  I''ve said it before, and I''ll say it again, nobody outside of the NCFC world seems to rate the guy. Yes, he has done well the last few games, but he has not been on the team for just a few games. He has been with us through 2 relegations.  Now he is shining, so as Butler says, he seems to have found his level.[/quote]

I''m a bit confused (not for the first time!).  Is traying to buy a player the only way that a club can show that they "rate" someone?  I''m sure that Lambert "rates" Wayne Rooney but I don''t recall a recent bid for him.  In fact I don''t recall reading of any recent bids for Rooney from anyone so I suppose that this makes him a pathetic liability as well.

[/quote]

No but he didn''t sit all summer with no contract waiting for someone to come and get him either did he?

Blah read my post and stop trying to put words in that I have not written!

At the moment he is playing quite well at his now found level. AFTER being dropped by our agreed good new mananger and a boot given to his rear end to get him moving. Crook stated last night that Doc was as good as gone. His effort in the RESERVES coupled with injuries to other players, has given him a chance. He has taken that chance and good for him.

He is one of the better CB''s we have at present. That does not make him brilliant, more a statement about what we have been left with. As I said he was bought as a PREM defender.

IF he was any good he would have been head hunted a season or three ago, but no one wants him.

While he keeps playing to the reasonable standard that he is at present GOOD and lets hope it lasts!

 

[/quote]

Given your comments about Nelson being a better CB than Doherty [:D] and wanting to play Spillane and Nelson ahead of him, just who are these CB''s that Doherty''s better than at the moment - Askou?  Or are you arguing that we should get rid of someone who just about everyone can see is contributing positively to the team at the moment because he isn''t prem standard and because there isn''t a queue of people desparate to grab him from our clutches?  I don''t really care if he stays or goes.  If we can bring someone in for less money who''s better then great as far as I''m concerned.  You just give the impression that you want him out because you don''t like him.  There are plenty of our players that I don''t especially like but I don''t care as long as they are helping get this club back where we belong.   

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="Dronny Canary"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="Dronny Canary"]

[quote user="Houston Canary"] It''s funny in an odd way (and oh how I wish it was instead funny in a "ha ha" sort of way) how defenders of the Dork say his detractors are know-nothings which implies that they are know-it-alls.  It is hard to believe he was rejecting contract offeres left right and center during his holdout 2 summers ago, and there was even word he was looking at the MLS.  I''ve said it before, and I''ll say it again, nobody outside of the NCFC world seems to rate the guy. Yes, he has done well the last few games, but he has not been on the team for just a few games. He has been with us through 2 relegations.  Now he is shining, so as Butler says, he seems to have found his level.[/quote]

I''m a bit confused (not for the first time!).  Is traying to buy a player the only way that a club can show that they "rate" someone?  I''m sure that Lambert "rates" Wayne Rooney but I don''t recall a recent bid for him.  In fact I don''t recall reading of any recent bids for Rooney from anyone so I suppose that this makes him a pathetic liability as well.

[/quote]

No but he didn''t sit all summer with no contract waiting for someone to come and get him either did he?

Blah read my post and stop trying to put words in that I have not written!

At the moment he is playing quite well at his now found level. AFTER being dropped by our agreed good new mananger and a boot given to his rear end to get him moving. Crook stated last night that Doc was as good as gone. His effort in the RESERVES coupled with injuries to other players, has given him a chance. He has taken that chance and good for him.

He is one of the better CB''s we have at present. That does not make him brilliant, more a statement about what we have been left with. As I said he was bought as a PREM defender.

IF he was any good he would have been head hunted a season or three ago, but no one wants him.

While he keeps playing to the reasonable standard that he is at present GOOD and lets hope it lasts!

 

[/quote]

Given your comments about Nelson being a better CB than Doherty [:D] and wanting to play Spillane and Nelson ahead of him, just who are these CB''s that Doherty''s better than at the moment - Askou?  Or are you arguing that we should get rid of someone who just about everyone can see is contributing positively to the team at the moment because he isn''t prem standard and because there isn''t a queue of people desparate to grab him from our clutches?  I don''t really care if he stays or goes.  If we can bring someone in for less money who''s better then great as far as I''m concerned.  You just give the impression that you want him out because you don''t like him.  There are plenty of our players that I don''t especially like but I don''t care as long as they are helping get this club back where we belong.   

[/quote]

Not my comments!

The discussion was about IF he is a good CB and has been for 4/5 years.

My post (if you read it) actually says I think he has finally reached his level.