West Ham

[BroadstairsR 0]

If the Mirror story today is correct, then the current fortunes of West Ham have some relevance to NCFC at the moment.

1. Their debts make ours pale into insignificance, this makes us a more attractive purchase, and makes me feel better about our situation.

2. David Sullivan is considering buying the club, but only at a knock-down price because of the level of money owed.. We are in their (the Mirror''s) list of other clubs Sullivan is considering. Ipswich are there too, but their debts are higher as well, and their assets smaller.

3. The Hammers owe £15 million in unpaid transfer fees. Is there any still to come from the Green and Ashton sales or was this written off to "buy" Grant? 

Sullivan is a shrewd businessman, who I would personally welcome as owner of our club. He is a bit more "street wise" than cosy Delia, and I consider this a plus.

West Ham''s bad fortune could be to our advantage. 

I lived in Birmingham for ten years. Before Sullivan got involved, Birmingham City was very much the second city second club, very much in the shadow of Aston Villa.

This gap has been greatly narrowed as the profile of the club has been increased. The stadium and the general facilities are  examples of this, although, remarkably, their gates are usually poorer than ours on a  like for like basis. Small Heath and environs are very run down areas, with a large immigrant population, not yet particularly into football. The team yo-yo a bit, but it is unlikely that they will ever sink to the third tier as we have done.

I personally, within reason, am not bothered about the money making backgound of any future owner. A smutty daily being the least of my concerns.

 

[mr carra 0]

I understood from Brum fans that the main reason their gates were so abysmally low despite his raising of the club''s profile and fortunes etc. etc. was that he had grossly jacked up the ticket prices.

[BroadstairsR 0]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/David-Sullivan-warns-West-Ham-he-will-only-buy-the-club-at-a-knockdown-price-article180847.html

I forgot the link.

I believe that the prices remained lower than Villa''s. I could stand corrected.

The fact is, pricing has a greater impact in a relatively poor area like inner Birmingham than it would in a more affluent area.

To a certain extent, Norwich is that more affluent area and this might have added attraction for Sullivan.l

 

 

 

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/David-Sullivan-warns-West-Ham-he-will-only-buy-the-club-at-a-knockdown-price-article180847.html

I forgot the link.

I believe that the prices remained lower than Villa''s. I could stand corrected.

The fact is, pricing has a greater impact in a relatively poor area like inner Birmingham than it would in a more affluent area.

To a certain extent, Norwich is that more affluent area and this might have added attraction for Sullivan.l

All my family live in Redditch and are S/T holders at BCFC, yes the prices are a little high, but the other thing is apart from  Small heath area, which I must say is no different to anyother, its what you make it, but the key factor is look at the map of the area, and within 30 miles of St Andrews you have 6 other clubs to pick from, I know of  people change clubs every other week if the results arn''t to thier liking, not like us thick n thin      

 

 

 

[/quote]

[Puzzy magnet 0]

Looking at West Ham''s list of debts - and given they have made their worst start to a Prem season ever - I would say they are a deeply unattractive proposition, unless they go into admin and shed the debts.

Of the list of clubs at the bottom of the article, I would say only Charlton would be available at a similar price to us. If we lost out to a tinpot team like that I would be gutted. We are getting almost 10k more through the gate than them at the moment.

[BroadstairsR 0]

I agree with the Redditch connection,  and I didn''t mean to imply that BCFC''s support was restricted to the Small Heath area. I realise that their catchment is quite large.

Villa have, however always attracted the lion''s share of support from leafy suburbs like Solihull and as you say, competition is increased by the choice of clubs to follow.

Small Heath, Alum Rock, Bordesley Heath, Nechells etc, might not differ much from other inner city areas, but they would raise the eyebrows of the average fledgling Canary fan on a first visit to our second city.

You do not get the impression that there is much money to spare for soccer watching. 

Back to the point of the post: Sullivan, with the Golds and Brady, have done a good job at Birmingham, can he emulate it at Carrow Road?

 

[PurpleCanary 6,378]

Those Mirror figures are generally based on

the accounts up to May 2008. They are one financial year out of date;

the bank debt, which is crucial, is believed to have risen by £5m to

£50m.

If the Mirror is right that West Ham is NOW running at a £20m loss that

could be very serious, because the club has already once broken its

banking covenants. On that occasion the banks forgave the breach, but

might not again, forcing administration.

The other point is, as was apparent from his

remarks a few weeks ago, that Gold does not see a future for himself in the long term

at Birmingham. So he would available along with Sullivan.

[Devils Advocate. 0]

 I have read elsewhere on this forum, that one of the reasons David Sullivan has sold his shares is that he was getting a little sick of the negative comments by the Birmingham fans. As Norwich fans never ever moan, despite having good reason to, would we be a more attractive proposition ?. I grieves me to say this but if West Ham were financially secure, their aspirations and chances of success would surely be higher than ours, their geographical position is always more attractive to young players than ours is for a start. I also believe that the media lack of interest in Norwich may hinder our appeal to Sullivan and the Golds, although were they involved here this could change.

 

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

I agree with the Redditch connection,  and I didn''t mean to imply that BCFC''s support was restricted to the Small Heath area. I realise that their catchment is quite large.

Villa have, however always attracted the lion''s share of support from leafy suburbs like Solihull and as you say, competition is increased by the choice of clubs to follow.

Small Heath, Alum Rock, Bordesley Heath, Nechells etc, might not differ much from other inner city areas, but they would raise the eyebrows of the average fledgling Canary fan on a first visit to our second city.

You do not get the impression that there is much money to spare for soccer watching. 

Back to the point of the post: Sullivan, with the Golds and Brady, have done a good job at Birmingham, can he emulate it at Carrow Road?

 

[/quote]

 yes agree totaly, Sullivan and Co have done more for Birmingham city than any outsider would know, I remember as a kid when I was taken there by my Brothers way back in the early 60''s, must add my only visit as a fan that was sullivan has transformed the place, where Birmingham city failed big time is when Villa were religated to the old 3rd division they should have capitalised on that but never did  

[Mr.Carrow 394]

One thing which really annoys me is this assumption in football that clubs like Brum must be huge just because they are in a huge City.  As has already been pointed out on this thread, the Greater Birmingham population of 3 million contains six clubs all vying for the same pool of support.  Given that there are over 1 million people in Norfolk and N.Suffolk i think it`s pretty obvious which club has more potential out of the two.....I just hope that Sullivan does his homework and grasps this.

[canary cherub 1]

Sullivan isn''t coming here, end of. 

 

[BroadstairsR 0]

[quote user="canary cherub "]

Sullivan isn''t coming here, end of. 

 

[/quote] 

You state a fact, rather than an opinion. Please enlighten us. 

[BroadstairsR 0]

My reply came out as  harsh Cherub. You are probably correct. But you never know in football.

[The Chirp 0]

it is unlikely that he will come here, especially as he went to school right next to upton park etc... however i don''t think it can be ruled out. taking on a premiership club means taking on premiership wages etc... it''s a big big investment (if you can call it that).I really think sooner or later (hopefully sooner!) a backer is going to see what all us bias canaries can see... norwich are a club you could go places with. a club you can build and make something. taking over a club like west ham is all well and good but where do they go from there? surely it would be more enjoyable to build something rather than just add to something or keep something where it is? maybe that''s just my business sense... and maybe why i don''t own a business!

[The Fish Seller 0]

[quote user="The Chirp"]it is unlikely that he will come here, especially as he went to school right next to upton park etc... however i don''t think it can be ruled out. taking on a premiership club means taking on premiership wages etc... it''s a big big investment (if you can call it that).I really think sooner or later (hopefully sooner!) a backer is going to see what all us bias canaries can see... norwich are a club you could go places with. a club you can build and make something. taking over a club like west ham is all well and good but where do they go from there? surely it would be more enjoyable to build something rather than just add to something or keep something where it is? maybe that''s just my business sense... and maybe why i don''t own a business![/quote]I see it the same way Chirp, West Ham really do have nowhere to go and will cost a fortune simply not to go backwards, we on the other hand have massive potential, and these people are more interested in ''playing the game'' as it were than just owning the club. They took BCFC from the third division to the Premiership and turned the ground from the corrugated iron mess of the early nineties to its current condition. Despite fewer fans attending, BCFC have managed a turnover in excess of double ours for some years meaning the owners have not had to financially prop up the club which has almost self financed itself.The younger BCFC fans might be critical that they haven''t written large cheques for star players, the older fans remember the 80''s and early 90''s and are on the whole appreciative of the trios efforts which on balance show a massive improvement in league status, facilities and financial stability.Norwich gives them a second chance at achieving this kind of transformation, none of the other clubs mentioned come anywhere close. 25,000 fans at each match even in this division will not have gone unnoticed I''m sure, and with the Yeung money they would have enough to buy the club and still have plenty left to ''play'' with.

[Jack Flash 17]

The extract from the article which surprised me was this quote - "If Sullivan fails to buy West Ham other targets include Norwich, Ipswich, Cardiff..."  Are our neighbours up for sale again? Why else would they be on his short list?

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

Name the 6 teams in Birmingham?

[BroadstairsR 0]

Just two in actual fact: Villa and Birmingham City.

The Hawthorns, at the end of the Soho Road is perched on the Birmingham/West Brom border.

Walsall and Wolverhampton are not that far away. Coventry is not to be included..

So thats five really, have I missed one?

 

[andy cousins 11]

walsall is prob the other one you were thinking about as not far from brum

[Mr.Carrow 394]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

Just two in actual fact: Villa and Birmingham City.

The Hawthorns, at the end of the Soho Road is perched on the Birmingham/West Brom border.

Walsall and Wolverhampton are not that far away. Coventry is not to be included..

So thats five really, have I missed one?

 

[/quote]

The 3m. population of Greater Birmingham includes Coventry, West Brom, Wolves and Walsall. 

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]The 3m. population of Greater Birmingham includes Coventry, West Brom, Wolves and Walsall.[/quote]I''m afraid your figures can''t be taken seriously unless you can list their names and addresses![;)]

[The Fish Seller 0]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="BroadstairsR"]

Just two in actual fact: Villa and Birmingham City.

The Hawthorns, at the end of the Soho Road is perched on the Birmingham/West Brom border.

Walsall and Wolverhampton are not that far away. Coventry is not to be included..

So thats five really, have I missed one?

 

[/quote]

The 3m. population of Greater Birmingham includes Coventry, West Brom, Wolves and Walsall. 

[/quote]Coventry is not part of the ''Greater Birmingham'' conurbation but is part of the ''West Midlands'' conurbation. Wolverhampton pop 250k, Dudley pop 200k, Walsall pop 180k, Oldbury pop 140k, West Brom pop 140k, Sutton Coldfield and Solihull both pops circa 100k are the largest constituents apart from Birmingham with many ''Towns'' such as Halesowen and Stourbridge pops 50k each making up the numbers. On a good day the Walsall stadium is a ten minute drive from Villa Park and on every day the Hawthorns sits on the Soho rd within the Birmingham city limits.

[Mr.Carrow 394]

If you google "greater Birmingham" you`ll come up with what i`ve posted- a 3 million population including Coventry.  The latest name for it is apparently "City region"- whether or not there is anything official about that tag or whether it`s just propoganda to make Brum look bigger and more important is debatable....

[nutty nigel 7,902]

This is all riveting stuff but I guess the bottom line is that Sullivan would probably buy a club who are already in administration and then build from there. Isn''t that what he did with Brum? Weren''t they floating along  in receivership and going nowhere? I believe he got them for less than 1m. He then got them relegated to the Third Division before making a real go of it and establishing them as a yoyo club between the Prem and Champs. This was as far as he could take them so he has now sold out and the fans are looking to bigger and better things. I think Sullivan served them well but they may be about to find out the grass isn''t always greener.

I am not sure whether it''s possible to repeat what Sullivan did with Birmingham with a club in administration these days. The penalties for administration and rules for coming out of administration are much harsher now.

As for West Ham, I don''t see how Sullivan can take them forward if Birmingham is now beyond him.

 

[Mr.Carrow 394]

Nutty, given the penalties for administration it seems likely that to bag a proper "bargain" football club the best thing to do would be to snap one up just before they go into administration (ie.Saints).  Strange to think that if it came down to us or Charlton, it may well be the one in the most desperate financial situation which gets the new owner....

[nutty nigel 7,902]

I doubt it Mr Carrow. It''s all about the debts.

 

[BroadstairsR 0]

Although the geography lessons have been interesting, I would now like to present my own sales pitch, regarding our club, that I would like to present to DS.

It begins:

Dear Mr. Sullivan,

FOR SALE: due to the current owner''s wish to retire.

This attractive club situated in the rural idyll of Norfolk boasts a well presented ground currently accomodating in excess of 25, 000.

Location, location: The City of Norwich, steeped in history, is one of the nicer places to live in England.

The team is in need of some refurbishment, but has undoubted potential.

The neighbours are friendly, and you will see 24, 000 of them on a regular basis.

The club boasts one of the finest training grounds in the League, with facilities to match.

Not to be missed. Having seen better times, this club presents the perfect opportunity for the right person with investment in mind. A certain business acumen, a sense of humour and a talent for foreign languages would all help.

Offers in the region of £50, 000, 000

Sold As Seen.

[kdncfc 0]

As big as Birmingham is I don''t think Brum City would get any more than 30k even if they were in the top half of the prem, their supporters seem to be a pathetic bunch to me. They don''t seem to travel away in particularly large numbers and there always seems to be plenty of empty seats at home games.If Sullivan did come in here and provided the finance to get us to the prem and extend the ground capacity to 35k I''m sure we''d fill it on a fairly regular basis. If you took the average price of a ticket at 20 pounds another 8 - 10k fans per game  would bring in another 3 - 4 million quid a year. There is huge potential here and hopefully Sullivan will be able to see it if he''s interested.

 

[Wembley_Canary 0]

[quote user="kdncfc"]

As big as Birmingham is I don''t think Brum City would get any more than 30k even if they were in the top half of the prem, their supporters seem to be a pathetic bunch to me. They don''t seem to travel away in particularly large numbers and there always seems to be plenty of empty seats at home games.If Sullivan did come in here and provided the finance to get us to the prem and extend the ground capacity to 35k I''m sure we''d fill it on a fairly regular basis. If you took the average price of a ticket at 20 pounds another 8 - 10k fans per game  would bring in another 3 - 4 million quid a year. There is huge potential here and hopefully Sullivan will be able to see it if he''s interested.

 

[/quote]Birmingham also has a large Asian population who have little interest in English sports such as football, so that cuts down their catchment population, for me Norwich has just as much potential if not more, were probably the most under-rated club in England in that respect, as so many people fail to notice how large our fan base could grow under the right management. 

[PurpleCanary 6,378]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]Those Mirror figures are generally based on

the accounts up to May 2008. They are one financial year out of date;

the bank debt, which is crucial, is believed to have risen by £5m to

£50m.

If the Mirror is right that West Ham is NOW running at a £20m loss that

could be very serious, because the club has already once broken its

banking covenants. On that occasion the banks forgave the breach, but

might not again, forcing administration.

The other point is, as was apparent from his

remarks a few weeks ago, that Gold does not see a future for himself in the long term

at Birmingham. So he would available along with Sullivan.

[/quote]It is now confirmed that Gold is leaving Birmingham after his request to stay on as chairman was - predictably - rejected. So the Sullivan, Brady and Gold trio is intact and looking for a new club to buy.