A few simple facts about shares

[T 190]

I agree it is an excellent well-written explanation of the reality of the current situation which everyone should read before they give their views on the Cullum affair or any financial matters relating to the club.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="The Butler"] 

Simple answer Cam "what the hell has it got to do with you?"

[/quote]

Does the answer to my question have anything to do with me ?

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="The Butler"] 

Simple answer Cam "what the hell has it got to do with you?"

[/quote]

Does the answer to my question have anything to do with me ?

[/quote]

Only if you want it to.

You asked a question and I tried to answer how I felt.

No I do not want the club sinking any lower, this is bad enough, but I can''t see it getting better while DS is at the helm.

[JuanVelasco 27]

[quote user="T"]GFP, Thank you for your personal recognition. However, I  would never make such claims myself . I have only ever claimed  that based on professional experience that I agree with the views of Deloittes, Peter Cullum and the chairman of the football league rather than many of the emotive financial views expressed on here which just don''t make sense. It seems it is perfectly ok to post an ill informed view on here providing it is critical of the Board but not to provide an independent informed professional view if it does not agree with emotional preconcieved critical concepts. I have never said that the Board are not ultimately responsible for the current situation and always said that I would have like to have seen PC or another wealthy owner with a genuine interest in the club take over. My post was written from a personal perspective only to encourage others to consider the perspective of potential benefactors themselves. I say benefactor rather than investor becasue as you rightly understand better than many putting money into a football club does not make financial sense for the reasons I''ve stated.  To be balanced the current regime presided over play offs and promotion as well as the current situation and as far as I''m aware the club is not in any fiancial difficulty. I''m afraid whilst the general fans are tremendouly loyal they do not contribute enough financially themselves to achieve the success on the field that we would all agree we would like to see. I am sure DS/MWJ have more reason to be unhappy that anyone given that they put 2m into the club last year to improve the situation on the field without success. They have contributed to the sitation but it is not entirely their own doing as other directors, manager, players and fans are also responsible (would we have been relegated if fans also contributed more financially or hadn''t encouraged the demise of Worthington and Roeder?)  It is also questionable whether they have reduced the economic value of their investment as a football club has no inherent economic value regardless of division as you point out. Whether they can turn things around or not is a subjective view of the future, although I would tend to share your concerns but what is clear is that they are willing to take action to address the situation which is always the first stage to turning a situation around. Coming back to my original point on why should people put money in to the club to subsidise the entertainment of others, I do not see why buying shares would delay a change of owners. I agree administration would force a change in owners or the end of the club but I don''t see any signs of administration given the continuing fan base and support of the directors. The Board has always sought to balance the books and therefore less contributions from other benefactors will only reduce the funds available for players and our chances of success. I don''t see any white knight taking over especially in the current environment, the richest fan has said he is no longer interested becasue football does not make financial sense and the fifth richest people in the region could not make it work for whatever reason. Why should anyone else take over when as you say it does not make sense financially and the fan base only ever whinge and critise often unkindly and unfairly? Therefore witholding funds is only reducing the chances of success and unfair and unkind criticism only makes it less likely that someone will want to takeover.[/quote]Has your return key broken? Do you realise how much easier it would be for people to read this if it had the odd space between paragraphs. You know, for a quick deep breath or something. I didnt read it.

[gazzathegreat 0]

Thanks for your reply LQ, if the Trust were to achieve their aim of a fan on the board, how would this be done? Would it be someone from the Trust itself, or would the position be advertised as such, rather like a job? What criteria or qualifications would the candidate have to possess?

Interesting - but at present surely in the infant stages. IF and when this was achieved, what sort of mandate would the successful candidate work to?

I am sure the handing over of the shares could work. The present terms were negotiated, so what stands in the way of anything changing? IF the will is there to make way for a better run club, and a more democratic board, then as far as I can see it, it''s entirely down to Delia and MWJ. They are responsible for the present set up and therefore can begin to make changes. Loans and terms can be changed. Their percentage holding was built up, so it can be scaled down. Do they wish this course of action to be taken? Now there''s the question. At the moment, who would want to invest a substantial sum of money when someone else calls all the shots.

Ideally we need additional investment and additional skills in many areas. We are told further changes will be made. IMO that needs to be substantial changes in the current board''s thinking more than anything else. They have presided over years of underachievement and disaster. They have sanctioned many equally disastrous appointments as team manager. Something has to change. While a couple hold the key to everything, my question is what will?

[The Fish Seller 0]

Here''s another simple fact about shares.Keith Harris remember him the Chairman of Seymour Pierce stockbrokers the man given the job of selling/finding new investment for the club recently said this:“There’s probably been a correction of the order of 20 per cent (in the last 12 months).

Anybody from overseas, the United States, Asia, or Europe contemplating

the acquisition of an English football club is now looking at making a

payment which is probably a third less.”This is not making allowance for a club being relegated but a ''like for like'' valuation.

[GMF 744]

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Thanks for your reply LQ, if the Trust were to achieve their aim of a fan on the board, how would this be done? Would it be someone from the Trust itself, or would the position be advertised as such, rather like a job? What criteria or qualifications would the candidate have to possess? Interesting - but at present surely in the infant stages. IF and when this was achieved, what sort of mandate would the successful candidate work to? I am sure the handing over of the shares could work. The present terms were negotiated, so what stands in the way of anything changing? IF the will is there to make way for a better run club, and a more democratic board, then as far as I can see it, it''s entirely down to Delia and MWJ. They are responsible for the present set up and therefore can begin to make changes. Loans and terms can be changed. Their percentage holding was built up, so it can be scaled down. Do they wish this course of action to be taken? Now there''s the question. At the moment, who would want to invest a substantial sum of money when someone else calls all the shots. Ideally we need additional investment and additional skills in many areas. We are told further changes will be made. IMO that needs to be substantial changes in the current board''s thinking more than anything else. They have presided over years of underachievement and disaster. They have sanctioned many equally disastrous appointments as team manager. Something has to change. While a couple hold the key to everything, my question is what will?[/quote]

Some very interesting questions there Gazza, and here''s one for you, or anyone else for that matter, what role, if any, do you see for NCISA in trying to influence the agenda for change? As one of the biggest supporter''s group, surely they should be playing a major  role in this?

[I am a Banana 0]

Stuart Nelson!

[LQ 0]

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Thanks for your reply LQ, if the Trust were to achieve their aim of a fan on the board, how would this be done? Would it be someone from the Trust itself, or would the position be advertised as such, rather like a job? What criteria or qualifications would the candidate have to possess?

Interesting - but at present surely in the infant stages. IF and when this was achieved, what sort of mandate would the successful candidate work to? [/quote]Sorry Gazza, as I said I am a very recent co-opted member of the NCST committee and I have yet to meet all the other members so it''s early days for me. I liked what I heard at the AGM and my take on it all was this: the person who went on the Board wouldn''t necessarily have to be a member of the Trust, however, I think it''s fair that said person should want to hold up the democratic views of the group and what Supporters Direct stands for in general - to give fans a voice on the Board of their football club. I would like to see that person elected and both they and all fans would have to realise that much of what was discussed at Board meetings was confidential. That''s the nature of the beast. I want someone who can add constructively to what goes on from either a business or football perspective (hey, maybe this is a job for Hux!!) and I trust that''s what the NCST want too.I can''t really answer anything else specific and I''m sure you wouldn''t expect me to until I''ve had a little more experience with them?

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="LQ"]Hmmm...

S''pose we should all just sit back and wait for some knight to come a''knockin'' eh? Well you know what folks, knights in shining armour don''t exist, at least not for damsels in distress!

[/quote]

Funny how they turn up for the likes of : Leicester, Peterborough, Birmingham, Hull, Stoke, Wolverhampton, Wigan, Portsmouth, Coventry, Derby County, Doncaster, Leeds United, Watford, QPR.....................

May be its the £30 minimum per ordinary share thats turning them off?

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Loan City Fc "][quote user="LQ"]Hmmm...

Perhaps the worst picture of me in existence but that''s the interweb for you!

And yes, blahblahblah - that''s exactly my point. I don''t want us to be in this hole forever and what if "they" can''t dig us out on their own?

S''pose we should all just sit back and wait for some knight to come a''knockin'' eh? Well you know what folks, knights in shining armour don''t exist, at least not for damsels in distress!



[/quote] Well when Delia and Foulger have spent their vast fortunes on their club and are no richer than most of the supporters maybe they will be entitled to come begging , but untill then let them sort out their mess with their money , and if they cannot ? tough, they can always give the club away let somebody else have a go .
[/quote]

I believe Sir Jack H. sold his shares in Wolves for £1 on the promise that the new owner would invest in new players and look where they are now.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="T"]My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. [/quote]

Maybe the real quandary is whether the shares are currently worth £30 each?

33,000 shares available for some time to purchase at that price and yet remaining unsold might seem to suggest they are not.


[/quote]

Good point.

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="T"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="T"]Surely the attraction is the opportunity to sit near the seats of the gentry of the city stand and listen to their inspirational views?[/quote]

If I had to listen to you - I''d be comatose.....

[/quote]

 

I thought you and your companions already were?

[/quote]

Well the football for most of last season was enough to send people asleep..........

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Glutton for Punishment"][quote user="T"]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="T"]My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. [/quote]

You would be subsidising nobody. Any money put into shares by yourself is an investment, the value of those shares could go up or down it is a gamble you take when you buy shares, if you want to subsidise the non shareholding fans then send your money as a donation.

Maybe the real quandary is whether the shares are currently worth £30 each?

33,000 shares available for some time to purchase at that price and yet remaining unsold might seem to suggest they are not.

[/quote]

A minority interest is worth nothing.  The inherent underlying value of any share is the time discounted value of future dividends and  as football clubs generally never pay any dividends to its ordinary shareholder and no one has ever shown any interest in buying the small shareholders out then the small shares have no value. I would never be under any illusion that it was an investment with a return. Its a donation whether that ties in with preconcieved ideas or not. Accordingly. the response just supports my original assertion.

[/quote]

LQ - I admire your positive approach and attempt to bolster the dire financial position of the club but I can only see this prolonging the agony. The current regime is utterly clueless and will waste any funds at their disposal.

[/quote]

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Glutton for Punishment"][quote user="GMF"][quote]

Purchasing shares will achieve nothing more than support these policies.

[/quote]

And if those shares were being purchased by either the Supporters Trust, what then?

[/quote]

The same in my opinion. The only additional element with NCST is that they seek to get a fan on the board, which is not desirable because any board presence would not have any say, be bound to confidentialty and give the board the opportunity to promote themselves as listening to fans. [/quote]

Thats why I think the NCST. are naive.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="GMF"]

So what, exactly, was the stubbling block for "an agreement on the important stuff" PurpleCanary?

[/quote]

They couldn''t agree the valuation of  so called worthless (ordinary) shares.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="GMF"]

If it''s a simple as that PurpleCanary, all this bashing of D&M over share valuations etc was simply misplaced and misdirected?

Surely, if it was as simple as that, the Club would have no reason for all this secrecy? 

[/quote]

GMF, you''re one fast reader! But you have hit the nail on the head. It is as simple as that. It was "misplaced and misdirected". I wouldn''t say the shares and their valuation were a complete red herring, but not far off it. Of all the aspects of Cullumgate, the shares were the least important. The debt was a much more significant factor, but the real problem was that the directors wanted (and still want) a promise of long-term funding and Cullum specifically ruled that out.

[/quote]

Do you really ask a Billionaire for guarantees? What guarantees can Delia & MWJ give, given that they have a limited number of millions? There is no need to run this club with an annual subsidy.

Secondly I wouldnt rule out the valuation issue (although there are other matters regarding PC''s business that PurpleCanary refers to) after all a gentleman at the club end of season forum claimed to have had correspondance with PC. If I remember correctly the gentleman gave the impression that PC feels that the shares are worthless (which I agree with if you value the fixed assets at realisable values and not at the cost of the fixed assets, e.g. cost of building the stands) while he also appreciates that Delia & MWJ want some of their money back. So the range of valuation for the ordinary shares seems to be anything between zero to £30 (minimum) per ordinary share. 

 

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="T"]

However, the majority shareholding does have value in owning a rare desirable asset which is why do you see new owners pay millions to control a football club.

[/quote]

3.  Its value lies in its power as the controlling stake, and that is what it still is As soon as it becomes a minority stake it loses that power and therefore that value. ....... If her stake ever became a minority one it would become as worthless as my six shares.[/quote]

Blimey, you must have been reading some of my old posts from last summer / autumn.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="astrodyne"]Yes LQ, money would help us get out of League One, but only if its spent on the football team. Therein lies the problem.[/quote]

Good post Astrodyne.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="T"]

 

 It is pure hyprocrisy to expect the directors to hand control of their investments without recompense to a billionaire when people are not willing to forfeit their rebate let alone spend half their lifetime wealth on the club. [/quote]

I thought Sir Jack Haywood (or whatever his surname) did that at Wolverhampton! Didn''t he sell his stake for £1 in return for a promise that the new owner would invest in the playing squad? Now just remind me, didn''t Wolves just get promoted to The Premiership?

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="ryan85k"][quote user="T"]GFP, Thank you for your personal recognition. However, I  would never make such claims myself . I have only ever claimed  that based on professional experience that I agree with the views of Deloittes, Peter Cullum and the chairman of the football league rather than many of the emotive financial views expressed on here which just don''t make sense. It seems it is perfectly ok to post an ill informed view on here providing it is critical of the Board but not to provide an independent informed professional view if it does not agree with emotional preconcieved critical concepts. I have never said that the Board are not ultimately responsible for the current situation and always said that I would have like to have seen PC or another wealthy owner with a genuine interest in the club take over. My post was written from a personal perspective only to encourage others to consider the perspective of potential benefactors themselves. I say benefactor rather than investor becasue as you rightly understand better than many putting money into a football club does not make financial sense for the reasons I''ve stated.  To be balanced the current regime presided over play offs and promotion as well as the current situation and as far as I''m aware the club is not in any fiancial difficulty. I''m afraid whilst the general fans are tremendouly loyal they do not contribute enough financially themselves to achieve the success on the field that we would all agree we would like to see. I am sure DS/MWJ have more reason to be unhappy that anyone given that they put 2m into the club last year to improve the situation on the field without success. They have contributed to the sitation but it is not entirely their own doing as other directors, manager, players and fans are also responsible (would we have been relegated if fans also contributed more financially or hadn''t encouraged the demise of Worthington and Roeder?)  It is also questionable whether they have reduced the economic value of their investment as a football club has no inherent economic value regardless of division as you point out. Whether they can turn things around or not is a subjective view of the future, although I would tend to share your concerns but what is clear is that they are willing to take action to address the situation which is always the first stage to turning a situation around. Coming back to my original point on why should people put money in to the club to subsidise the entertainment of others, I do not see why buying shares would delay a change of owners. I agree administration would force a change in owners or the end of the club but I don''t see any signs of administration given the continuing fan base and support of the directors. The Board has always sought to balance the books and therefore less contributions from other benefactors will only reduce the funds available for players and our chances of success. I don''t see any white knight taking over especially in the current environment, the richest fan has said he is no longer interested becasue football does not make financial sense and the fifth richest people in the region could not make it work for whatever reason. Why should anyone else take over when as you say it does not make sense financially and the fan base only ever whinge and critise often unkindly and unfairly? Therefore witholding funds is only reducing the chances of success and unfair and unkind criticism only makes it less likely that someone will want to takeover.[/quote]

Has your return key broken? Do you realise how much easier it would be for people to read this if it had the odd space between paragraphs. You know, for a quick deep breath or something. I didnt read it.
[/quote]

Nor did I.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

Could this be a world record Tangie[:^)] 12 consecutive posts on one thread without a single reply[:O]

 

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

[;)]

 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

But who knows how many more if you hadn''t intervened!!!

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Could this be a world record Tangie[:^)] 12 consecutive posts on one thread without a single reply[:O]

 

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

[;)]

 

[/quote]MEGA LOL.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

Did I read somewhere that Tangible had been co-opted on to the NCISA committee? I wondered if it was some kind of initiation test...

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Could this be a world record Tangie[:^)] 12 consecutive posts on one thread without a single reply[:O]

 

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

[;)]

 

[/quote]

Well the guy has to work all day so he catches up early evening.

I suppose it''s lucky that you,like me, can drift in and out or we would 10 consecutive posts all wanting Worthy back or Chase in[:D]

Live long and prosper Nutty!

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Could this be a world record Tangie[:^)] 12 consecutive posts on one thread without a single reply[:O]

 

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

[;)]

 

[/quote]

Sorry but I cant keep looking at this thread all day and replying as the day passes. So I look at the thread and reply as I read the posts hence the batch of replies.....

[Metatron 0]

"Could this be a world record Tangie 12 consecutive posts on one thread without a single reply"

..and not one of them with anything interesting to say!

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Metatron"]"Could this be a world record Tangie 12 consecutive posts on one thread without a single reply" ..and not one of them with anything interesting to say![/quote]

Astrodyne will not like that as i complimented him on his post. Lol!

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Could this be a world record Tangie[:^)] 12 consecutive posts on one thread without a single reply[:O]

 

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

Well said!!

[;)]

 

[/quote]

Well the guy has to work all day so he catches up early evening.

I suppose it''s lucky that you,like me, can drift in and out or we would 10 consecutive posts all wanting Worthy back or Chase in[:D]

Live long and prosper Nutty!

[/quote]

Are you his mum[:^)]