A few simple facts about shares

[Yellow Rider 0]

[quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Loan City Fc "]Delia and Foulger have millions why dont you go badger them to throw money at THEIR club instead of trying to make ordinary people feel guilty for the mess they have made of things .
[/quote]

 

Thats a good point Loan City FC [:)]

 Not sure who LQ really is, but is she something to do with the board as she seems to be their PR person or is she something to do with Archant as her blogs and threads get stickied??

[/quote]

LQ (if it''s who I think it is), is one of the fans on the SCG.

[Inch High aka Inchy.. 405]

[quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Loan City Fc "]Delia and Foulger have millions why dont you go badger them to throw money at THEIR club instead of trying to make ordinary people feel guilty for the mess they have made of things .
[/quote]

 

Thats a good point Loan City FC [:)]

 Not sure who LQ really is, but is she something to do with the board as she seems to be their PR person or is she something to do with Archant as her blogs and threads get stickied??

[/quote]

LQ (if it''s who I think it is), is one of the fans on the SCG.

[/quote]

It is and she is.[;)]

 

[Camuldonum 0]

[quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Loan City Fc "]Delia and Foulger have millions why dont you go badger them to throw money at THEIR club instead of trying to make ordinary people feel guilty for the mess they have made of things .
[/quote]

 

Thats a good point Loan City FC [:)]

 Not sure who LQ really is, but is she something to do with the board as she seems to be their PR person or is she something to do with Archant as her blogs and threads get stickied??

[/quote]

LQ (if it''s who I think it is), is one of the fans on the SCG.

[/quote]

FFS: This is not rocket science even in Conference North.

 

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/SCG/0,,10355~936201,00.html

 

[ca 1]

[quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Loan City Fc "]Delia and Foulger have millions why dont you go badger them to throw money at THEIR club instead of trying to make ordinary people feel guilty for the mess they have made of things .
[/quote]

 

Thats a good point Loan City FC [:)]

 Not sure who LQ really is, but is she something to do with the board as she seems to be their PR person or is she something to do with Archant as her blogs and threads get stickied??

[/quote]

LQ (if it''s who I think it is), is one of the fans on the SCG.

[/quote]

I know who she is, my post was tongue in cheek [:D] But thanks Cam for the link to piccie, now we can put face to the name.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="cityangel"][quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Loan City Fc "]Delia and Foulger have millions why dont you go badger them to throw money at THEIR club instead of trying to make ordinary people feel guilty for the mess they have made of things .
[/quote]

 

Thats a good point Loan City FC [:)]

 Not sure who LQ really is, but is she something to do with the board as she seems to be their PR person or is she something to do with Archant as her blogs and threads get stickied??

[/quote]

LQ (if it''s who I think it is), is one of the fans on the SCG.

[/quote]

I know who she is, my post was tongue in cheek [:D] But thanks Cam for the link to piccie, now we can put face to the name.

[/quote]

Perhaps we should all put a face to the name Angel. That would be fair wouldn''t it.........

This is me  apparently[:O]

 

[LQ 0]

Hmmm...Perhaps the worst picture of me in existence but that''s the interweb for you!And yes, blahblahblah - that''s exactly my point. I don''t want us to be in this hole forever and what if "they" can''t dig us out on their own?S''pose we should all just sit back and wait for some knight to come a''knockin'' eh? Well you know what folks, knights in shining armour don''t exist, at least not for damsels in distress!

[Rustys 1st Touch 0]

Amazing how many of the SCG are employees of NCFC. Guess that would certainly reduce their ability to seriously question the board.

[LQ 0]

None of the fans on the SCG are employees of NCFC.At the end of this thread is an explanation in case you missed it:http://www.pinkun.com/cs/forums/7/1694737/ShowPost.aspx#1694737

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="LQ"]Hmmm...Perhaps the worst picture of me in existence but that''s the interweb for you!

[/quote]That''s because it''s the picture you chose to give them most probably[:P]Seriously though I took this thread for what it was, a general debate on raising cash flow.  Not another thread of ''Mr/Ms XXXX'' is in the club pockets.

[Joanna Grey 0]

[quote user="cityangel"][quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Loan City Fc "]Delia and Foulger have millions why dont you go badger them to throw money at THEIR club instead of trying to make ordinary people feel guilty for the mess they have made of things .
[/quote]

 

Thats a good point Loan City FC [:)]

 Not sure who LQ really is, but is she something to do with the board as she seems to be their PR person or is she something to do with Archant as her blogs and threads get stickied??

[/quote]

LQ (if it''s who I think it is), is one of the fans on the SCG.

[/quote]

I know who she is, my post was tongue in cheek [:D] But thanks Cam for the link to piccie, now we can put face to the name.

[/quote]

Oh yes, of course you do.... [8-)]

[Time to go Delia 0]

[quote user="LQ"]Hmmm...Perhaps the worst picture of me in existence but that''s the interweb for you!And yes, blahblahblah - that''s exactly my point. I don''t want us to be in this hole forever and what if "they" can''t dig us out on their own?S''pose we should all just sit back and wait for some knight to come a''knockin'' eh? Well you know what folks, knights in shining armour don''t exist, at least not for damsels in distress!

[/quote] Well when Delia and Foulger have spent their vast fortunes on their club and are no richer than most of the supporters maybe they will be entitled to come begging , but untill then let them sort out their mess with their money , and if they cannot ? tough, they can always give the club away let somebody else have a go .

[T 190]

I am fortunate enough to be in a position to buy shares and would be interested to know the appropriate contact details the at the club. My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. That does not mean mistakes have not been made or that I would not like to see new owners although I see that as highly unlikely given the attitude of the fans to its benefactors.

[Mello Yello 2,281]

[quote user="T"]I am fortunate enough to be in a position to buy shares and would be interested to know the appropriate contact details the at the club. My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. That does not mean mistakes have not been made or that I would not like to see new owners although I see that as highly unlikely given the attitude of the fans to its benefactors.[/quote]

You can be on LQs invite, to the ''Top o'' the Terrace'' party list....or a cosy little candle-lit table in Delia''s? Aaah, lovely....Maybe a seat on the bench with a piccy sat next to Gunny?

[T 190]

Surely the attraction is the opportunity to sit near the seats of the gentry of the city stand and listen to their inspirational views?

[Mello Yello 2,281]

[quote user="T"]Surely the attraction is the opportunity to sit near the seats of the gentry of the city stand and listen to their inspirational views?[/quote]

If I had to listen to you - I''d be comatose.....

[The Fish Seller 0]

[quote user="T"]My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. [/quote]You would be subsidising nobody. Any money put into shares by yourself is an investment, the value of those shares could go up or down it is a gamble you take when you buy shares, if you want to subsidise the non shareholding fans then send your money as a donation.Maybe the real quandary is whether the shares are currently worth £30 each?33,000 shares available for some time to purchase at that price and yet remaining unsold might seem to suggest they are not.

[GMF 736]

[quote user="Nuff Said"]For any PLC listed on a Stock Exchange, the market demand dictates the price of shares. Why doesn''t that apply to football clubs?
[/quote]

Simply because these shares aren''t listed on an active market, so you can''t just ring up a broker or bank and ask for the latest price and then decide whether to buy or sell accordingly. In simplist terms, the shares are only worth what someone is iwlling to offer for them, if you don''t like their offer, you don''t have to sell.

[T 190]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="T"]Surely the attraction is the opportunity to sit near the seats of the gentry of the city stand and listen to their inspirational views?[/quote]

If I had to listen to you - I''d be comatose.....

[/quote]

 

I thought you and your companions already were?

[T 190]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="T"]My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. [/quote]

You would be subsidising nobody. Any money put into shares by yourself is an investment, the value of those shares could go up or down it is a gamble you take when you buy shares, if you want to subsidise the non shareholding fans then send your money as a donation.

Maybe the real quandary is whether the shares are currently worth £30 each?

33,000 shares available for some time to purchase at that price and yet remaining unsold might seem to suggest they are not.


[/quote]

A minority interest is worth nothing.  The inherent underlying value of any share is the time discounted value of future dividends and  as football clubs generally never pay any dividends to its ordinary shareholder and no one has ever shown any interest in buying the small shareholders out then the small shares have no value. I would never be under any illusion that it was an investment with a return. Its a donation whether that ties in with preconcieved ideas or not. Accordingly. the response just supports my original assertion.

[Mello Yello 2,281]

[quote user="T"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="T"]Surely the attraction is the opportunity to sit near the seats of the gentry of the city stand and listen to their inspirational views?[/quote]

If I had to listen to you - I''d be comatose.....

[/quote]

 

I thought you and your companions already were?

[/quote]

Well, with the standard and quality of the alleged ''core product''.....I''m surprised that everyone in the stadium isn''t in the ''land of nod''....

 

[LQ 0]

[quote user="stress makes Gunns vitiligo worse"][quote user="LQ"]Hmmm...Perhaps the worst picture of me in existence but that''s the interweb for you!

[/quote]That''s because it''s the picture you chose to give them most probably[:P]Seriously though I took this thread for what it was, a general debate on raising cash flow.  Not another thread of ''Mr/Ms XXXX'' is in the club pockets.[/quote]Actually that''s true - I didn''t want to look too fabulous or it may lose me the ''common touch'' (why is there no self-deprecating smiley???)

[Glutton for Punishment 0]

[quote user="T"]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="T"]My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. [/quote]

You would be subsidising nobody. Any money put into shares by yourself is an investment, the value of those shares could go up or down it is a gamble you take when you buy shares, if you want to subsidise the non shareholding fans then send your money as a donation.

Maybe the real quandary is whether the shares are currently worth £30 each?

33,000 shares available for some time to purchase at that price and yet remaining unsold might seem to suggest they are not.

[/quote]

A minority interest is worth nothing.  The inherent underlying value of any share is the time discounted value of future dividends and  as football clubs generally never pay any dividends to its ordinary shareholder and no one has ever shown any interest in buying the small shareholders out then the small shares have no value. I would never be under any illusion that it was an investment with a return. Its a donation whether that ties in with preconcieved ideas or not. Accordingly. the response just supports my original assertion.

[/quote]

T - I am nearly able to agree with one of your posts! As usual you display a modicum of understanding of financial matters but you fall down when applying these principles to affairs at NCFC, which of course, being a small business, is at the opposite end of the spectrum of the city-type jargon you usually draw upon.

I agree that minority shareholding is worthless but would go further to say that the method of valuation you quote equally applies to the club as a whole. Your assertion that the shares have no value due to lack dividends applies to all shareholders, be they minority or majority. Given that asset values on disposal are insufficient to return any value to shareholders after creditors are repaid, an asset based valuation would provide the same answer. Add to this the burden the majority shareholders carry to continually add funds to the coffers of the club in order to protect their investment and one could say that their shareholding is worse than worthless. If I was them I would be looking to give them away at the first opportunity. DS & MWJ should be camped outside Peter Cullum''s house 24-7 begging him to take the shares off them!

I could almost feel sorry for them, but then remind myself of the purgatory they have put so many fans through with their incompetence and inability to learn from mistakes, a situation that looks set to continue indefinitely.

So, I find myself agreeing again that buying shares in NCFC is effectively a donation. Where we no doubt differ is the principle of donating to an incompetent, wasteful regime and even worse giving the board yet another massive vote of confidence to carry on regardless.

LQ - I admire your positive approach and attempt to bolster the dire financial position of the club but I can only see this prolonging the agony. The current regime is utterly clueless and will waste any funds at their disposal.

[GMF 736]

I''m slightly puzzled by the logic behind the proposal to deprive the club of up to 20% of it''s season ticket income, as recommended by NCISA, through ST holder''s reclaiming their rebate, especially as the majority shareholders are just as likely to make up this shortfall with further loans or purchases of the unallocated shares. Just a thought.

[T 190]

[quote user="Glutton for Punishment"][quote user="T"]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="T"]My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. [/quote]

You would be subsidising nobody. Any money put into shares by yourself is an investment, the value of those shares could go up or down it is a gamble you take when you buy shares, if you want to subsidise the non shareholding fans then send your money as a donation.

Maybe the real quandary is whether the shares are currently worth £30 each?

33,000 shares available for some time to purchase at that price and yet remaining unsold might seem to suggest they are not.

[/quote]

A minority interest is worth nothing.  The inherent underlying value of any share is the time discounted value of future dividends and  as football clubs generally never pay any dividends to its ordinary shareholder and no one has ever shown any interest in buying the small shareholders out then the small shares have no value. I would never be under any illusion that it was an investment with a return. Its a donation whether that ties in with preconcieved ideas or not. Accordingly. the response just supports my original assertion.

[/quote]

T - I am nearly able to agree with one of your posts! As usual you display a modicum of understanding of financial matters but you fall down when applying these principles to affairs at NCFC, which of course, being a small business, is at the opposite end of the spectrum of the city-type jargon you usually draw upon.

I agree that minority shareholding is worthless but would go further to say that the method of valuation you quote equally applies to the club as a whole. Your assertion that the shares have no value due to lack dividends applies to all shareholders, be they minority or majority. Given that asset values on disposal are insufficient to return any value to shareholders after creditors are repaid, an asset based valuation would provide the same answer. Add to this the burden the majority shareholders carry to continually add funds to the coffers of the club in order to protect their investment and one could say that their shareholding is worse than worthless. If I was them I would be looking to give them away at the first opportunity. DS & MWJ should be camped outside Peter Cullum''s house 24-7 begging him to take the shares off them!

I could almost feel sorry for them, but then remind myself of the purgatory they have put so many fans through with their incompetence and inability to learn from mistakes, a situation that looks set to continue indefinitely.

So, I find myself agreeing again that buying shares in NCFC is effectively a donation. Where we no doubt differ is the principle of donating to an incompetent, wasteful regime and even worse giving the board yet another massive vote of confidence to carry on regardless.

LQ - I admire your positive approach and attempt to bolster the dire financial position of the club but I can only see this prolonging the agony. The current regime is utterly clueless and will waste any funds at their disposal.

[/quote]

 

Fortunately for myself, my customers and the  market know that I''ve  perhaps a ltitle more than a modicum of understanding having  professionally  reviewed football and numerous other business transactions. However, I''m intrigued to know what makes you believe you are emminently more qualified to comment on thse matters. Of course you are right that the majority shareholding also has no cash flow value either, it has a negative cash value as I''ve argued many times. This is really basic stuff. However, the majority shareholding does have value in owning a rare desirable asset which is why do you see new owners pay millions to control a football club. So your analysis did show a modicum of understanding but unfortunately misses some crucial basic understanding of business valuation - i.e. the commensense it is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="T"]

However, the majority shareholding does have value in owning a rare desirable asset which is why do you see new owners pay millions to control a football club.

[/quote]This is exactly the point. Owning shares in an unlisted football club is not about mere money, about profit and loss. People buy shares in unlisted football clubs for, roughly, three reasons, and not one of them is to do with expecting a profit.1. As a sentimental gesture, mixed in with a tiny financial boost for the club. Which is why I bought six shares.2. To gain influence by effectively buying a seat on the board, through the purchase of a sizeable chunk, such as the 33,000 that are (still?) available.3. To gain control through the purchase of a majority stake. And that majority stake (I stress I''m talking here about unlisted football clubs) doesn''t go up or down much in value. Smith and Jones''s stake didn''t really increase in value when we got promoted, and it won''t have declined as a result of relegation. Its value lies in its power as the controlling stake, and that is what it still is As soon as it becomes a minority stake it loses that power and therefore that value. Which is why one of the most often repeated Cullumgate mantras (Delia''s shares will be worth more as a minority stake in a successful club than a majority stake in an unsuccessful one) simply isn''t true. If her stake ever became a minority one it would become as worthless as my six shares.

[GMF 736]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="T"]

However, the majority shareholding does have value in owning a rare desirable asset which is why do you see new owners pay millions to control a football club.

[/quote]

This is exactly the point. Owning shares in an unlisted football club is not about mere money, about profit and loss. People buy shares in unlisted football clubs for, roughly, three reasons, and not one of them is to do with expecting a profit.

1. As a sentimental gesture, mixed in with a tiny financial boost for the club. Which is why I bought six shares.

2. To gain influence by effectively buying a seat on the board, through the purchase of a sizeable chunk, such as the 33,000 that are (still?) available.

3. To gain control through the purchase of a majority stake. And that majority stake (I stress I''m talking here about unlisted football clubs) doesn''t go up or down much in value. Smith and Jones''s stake didn''t really increase in value when we got promoted, and it won''t have declined as a result of relegation. Its value lies in its power as the controlling stake, and that is what it still is As soon as it becomes a minority stake it loses that power and therefore that value. Which is why one of the most often repeated Cullumgate mantras (Delia''s shares will be worth more as a minority stake in a successful club than a majority stake in an unsuccessful one) simply isn''t true. If her stake ever became a minority one it would become as worthless as my six shares.[/quote]

PurpleCanary, your recollection of past timings is probably better than mine, but why did the Club limit the creation of Ordinary Shares in 2007 to just 33,333? I appreciate, under normal circumstances, increasing the number of Authorised Shares dilutes the value of individual''s shareholdings. However, as has been explained above, these aren''t actively traded shares.

It seems to me that the Club "missed a trick" here, if they had increased the Authorised Share Capital by, say, 666,666 shares, someone could have acquired them at £30 a go for £20M. The Club would then of had 1,201,901 Ordinary Shares, the purchaser of the new shares would have a 55% holding and the exisitng majority shareholders would have a 27% shareholding.

Just a thought!

[Glutton for Punishment 0]

[quote user="T"][quote user="Glutton for Punishment"][quote user="T"]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="T"]My only concern is why should I spend my hard earned  money to susidise the weekend entertainment of others when those who have put money into the club receive a considerable of ignorant, ill-informed, obnoxious abuse from a numerous whingers which as PC said is unfair and unkind. [/quote]

You would be subsidising nobody. Any money put into shares by yourself is an investment, the value of those shares could go up or down it is a gamble you take when you buy shares, if you want to subsidise the non shareholding fans then send your money as a donation.

Maybe the real quandary is whether the shares are currently worth £30 each?

33,000 shares available for some time to purchase at that price and yet remaining unsold might seem to suggest they are not.

[/quote]

A minority interest is worth nothing.  The inherent underlying value of any share is the time discounted value of future dividends and  as football clubs generally never pay any dividends to its ordinary shareholder and no one has ever shown any interest in buying the small shareholders out then the small shares have no value. I would never be under any illusion that it was an investment with a return. Its a donation whether that ties in with preconcieved ideas or not. Accordingly. the response just supports my original assertion.

[/quote]

T - I am nearly able to agree with one of your posts! As usual you display a modicum of understanding of financial matters but you fall down when applying these principles to affairs at NCFC, which of course, being a small business, is at the opposite end of the spectrum of the city-type jargon you usually draw upon.

I agree that minority shareholding is worthless but would go further to say that the method of valuation you quote equally applies to the club as a whole. Your assertion that the shares have no value due to lack dividends applies to all shareholders, be they minority or majority. Given that asset values on disposal are insufficient to return any value to shareholders after creditors are repaid, an asset based valuation would provide the same answer. Add to this the burden the majority shareholders carry to continually add funds to the coffers of the club in order to protect their investment and one could say that their shareholding is worse than worthless. If I was them I would be looking to give them away at the first opportunity. DS & MWJ should be camped outside Peter Cullum''s house 24-7 begging him to take the shares off them!

I could almost feel sorry for them, but then remind myself of the purgatory they have put so many fans through with their incompetence and inability to learn from mistakes, a situation that looks set to continue indefinitely.

So, I find myself agreeing again that buying shares in NCFC is effectively a donation. Where we no doubt differ is the principle of donating to an incompetent, wasteful regime and even worse giving the board yet another massive vote of confidence to carry on regardless.

LQ - I admire your positive approach and attempt to bolster the dire financial position of the club but I can only see this prolonging the agony. The current regime is utterly clueless and will waste any funds at their disposal.

[/quote]

Fortunately for myself, my customers and the  market know that I''ve  perhaps a ltitle more than a modicum of understanding having  professionally  reviewed football and numerous other business transactions. However, I''m intrigued to know what makes you believe you are emminently more qualified to comment on thse matters. Of course you are right that the majority shareholding also has no cash flow value either, it has a negative cash value as I''ve argued many times. This is really basic stuff. However, the majority shareholding does have value in owning a rare desirable asset which is why do you see new owners pay millions to control a football club. So your analysis did show a modicum of understanding but unfortunately misses some crucial basic understanding of business valuation - i.e. the commensense it is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

[/quote]

T - Thank you for confirming that your posts are merely a means to brag about your unquestionable financial skills and city (as in ''of London'') expertise. I''ll leave you to do the mud slinging.

Anything is only worth what anyone is willing to pay for it.... and in NCFC''s case that is clearly bugger all (technical term). The problem is that the current owners don''t see it that way and we have the added complication of their catering interests that get in way. The result is the entrenched position that they have adopted and the inevitable continuity of previous failed policies. Purchasing shares will achieve nothing more than support these policies.

[GMF 736]

[quote]

Purchasing shares will achieve nothing more than support these policies.

[/quote]

And if those shares were being purchased by either the Supporters Trust, what then?

[Glutton for Punishment 0]

[quote user="GMF"][quote]

Purchasing shares will achieve nothing more than support these policies.

[/quote]

And if those shares were being purchased by either the Supporters Trust, what then?

[/quote]

The same in my opinion. The only additional element with NCST is that they seek to get a fan on the board, which is not desirable because any board presence would not have any say, be bound to confidentialty and give the board the opportunity to promote themselves as listening to fans. We already have that in place - it''s called the SCG.

[GMF 736]

G4P, does this mean, therefore, that you''re against any new share purchases that would increase the working capital of the Club?