Hillsborough, 20 years on

[K Lo 229]

I, like many on here, was at the Villa Park semi final against Everton. I remember too seeing that the game at Highfield was suspended without being told why, then, after some time, a few of the guys around us had little radios and were telling us that around 8 people were known to have died.

I was 16 at the time and remember thinking that being squashed in a footy stadium was just harmlees fun; it happened enough to us in the old Barclay and apart from a few bruises, we never thought anything of it. As the reported deaths from those little pocket radios that nearby supporters has rose to 13 or so, our attention was taken more increasingly away from the game in front of us and focussed more onto the "other semi" as it was being called.

I think at half time, we were hearing reports of deaths in the 30s or so (34 sticks in my head) and I can distinctly remember thinking "what does this match matter?", by then, all of us around us knew that this was a big, big disaster and it didn''t take long to realise that that could well have been us had the draw been different. I''m sure it was still 0-0 still at half time because when Everton eventually did score we were wondering if this pair of matches were going to be valid anyway. Walking from the ground was a very quiet affair and Radio 5 (if it was Radio 5 then, Radio 2?) was just very solumn talk of the "other semi". It wasa long way from Birmingham back to Yarmouth that day but I just seem to remember being frozen.

It''s still difficult to know what to make of it all. In my opinion, not having exit gates at the front was hugely influential. I''m sure that the cages at Norwich had gates onto the pitch. As I read elsewhere though, the fear of hooliganism far dominated any crowd considerations over and above safety at the time. Obviously a huge tragedy that it took 96 deaths to change it.

[Albyella 0]

I got tickets for the game from a friend who had connections with a sports company (some friend). When we arrived, we (my wife and I) found we were in with the Everton fans. After hiding our colours, I spoke to a steward, showed him my scarf - he then led us down onto the pitch and round the edge to let us into the pen at the corner of the Holte End and Trinity Road (if I remember correctly). My wife was not happy when they let us in and locked the pen gate behind us. We watched the game, knowing that something had occurred at the other semi, but thought it was something to do with crowd trouble. On the walk back to the car, someone said they thought there had been a death at the other match, still we had no idea. We got in the car, swearing at my mate for being in with the Everton lot, moaning about losing etc, turned on the radio and at that moment everything before, on that day, just didnt matter at all. We drove home listening again and again to the reports in utter disbelief. When we got home, we sat in front of the TV and it was surreal what we were seeing. I really feel for the families of the poor souls that lost their lives that day, and wonder how you get on with your life again after something like that. I will watch the TV programme tonight in memory of the event, but I know it will be as harrowing tonight as it was then.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]Some great posts on this thread. Those who thought it was a good place to put anti-Scouser jokes i think have made a bit of a misjudgment. I remember it well - I was not at Villa Park, but was obviously keeping a close eye on the semi-finals at home. Sickening is exactly the right word. I thought Steve Wilson''s piece was very good, except for the last paragraph. I think those who died at Hillsborough have been betrayed by what happened afterwards. The Taylor report was hijacked by clubs and the government who saw an opportunity to change the social class of people who went to football. There were obviously many causes of the disaster, but the fact that the stand was terracing was very low down the list. Lots of grounds needed modernising, but the change to all-seater stadiums and the associated huge increase in prices has changed the game fundamentally for the worse - it opened football up for an era where the TV fan is put before the fans who actually go to games, in other words, fans like the 96 who died. I went to City''s semi-final at Hillsborough against Sunderland, and the rendition of You''ll Never Walk Alone by both sets of fans before the game was the most moving thing that has happened to me in a football ground. The disaster should be remembered, and any football fan who doesn''t remember it should take the trouble to find out about it. I think that part of finding out about it is to refuse to accept the rewriting of history that says that all-seater stadiums had to happen as a result. It isn''t true and I think it''s an insult to the memory of those who died. Walk on.[/quote]

Robert, I understand how you feel about all-seater stadiums. I grew up with standing on the terraces and agree that it was more conducive to atmosphere. However, while your words about what works best in football are well intentioned they are, in my opinion, wrong-headed. Remembering what happened at Hillsborough is, and should be, about remembering those that lost their lives in that stadium and the loss to those that loved them, particularly their parents, their children and siblings. They are the ones that lost the joy of sharing a full life with their loved ones. I''m sure they don''t think of the decisions that were made as being an insult to the memory of those that died. I believe your arguments have a place and, I''m sure, lots of support. I just don''t feel they belong when remembering what happened at Hillsborough. 

[Captain Holt 522]

Just seen the culture secretary get ripped to bits by the Anfield crowd. Signing justice for the 96 well and truly shut him up, and showed that those families and the football world as a whole in many ways will not let the police etc. etc. get away with this.

I wasn''t born when the tragedy unfolded, but in the last few days I''ve found out about the whole thing and watching this memorial on Sky News has really touched me.

R.I.P. 96, You''ll Never Walk Alone.

[|BA 0]

[quote user="MonkeyTrousers"]Sorry, bit of a random post, but I was just reading on another thread that it''s the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough tragedy on the 15th April.  My only memory of it is not a proud one - listening to the commentary from Villa Park on the radio with Norwich losing 1-0 to Everton in the other semi-final, and not being in the least bit interested as reports of an incident started to filter through from Hillsborough - the media not being nearly as widespread in their coverage as today.  Thinking "stop talking about it, get back to the Norwich match"... and then as the full story began to emerge, it no longer seemed to matter that we''d lost an FA Cup semi-final.  Well it did, I was gutted.  But it was just a game of football and everyone got home safely.I''ve just browsed online and seen pictures of the Hillborough pitch carpeted in flowers from end to end, every blade of grass hidden under bouquets and scarves.  There''s something about that image that is terribly sad.  All seater stadia may not be to everyone''s taste, but if it prevents another high profile disaster like this from happening again then so be it.[/quote]

Nothing to do with the fencing, the scousers turning up at 2.50 from the pubs (as they did at Villa Park) and and the 2000 forged tickets then?

[BigFish 1,988]

[quote user="Hissing Sid"]

Like so many others, I was at Villa Park that day. On arrival at the ground, me and some mates headed towards the top of the huge Holte End terrace. We squeezed our way in, but it really was overcrowded at the back, so we left and made our way lower down. The memories of those on here are vivid in my own mind as well, but a day or two later as I reflected on what had happened I had an overwhelming sense of "There but for the grace of God go I..."

We left the ground aware that something had happened and everyone assumed it had been down to holliganism, but on the journey home it quickly became clear that wasn''t the case. Suddenly he result of our game just didn''t matter. On arriving back at Carrow Road we headed into what is now Yellows and the TV was showing Match of the Day. Well there was no match obviously, just a report and footage of what had happened. I''ll never forget the look on Jimmy Hill''s face as we all stood there open mouthed and shocked at what had occurred.

It was the norm in those days to be packed onto a terrace, anyone remember going to West Ham in the quarter final that year? It never really occurred to me that we could be in any danger going to a football match until Hillsborough. As I said earlier, "There but for the grace of God..."

OTBC

[/quote]

I remember West Ham and thinking back it is a wonder that City fans weren''t seriously injured there. Those who go on about terracing not being a contributing factor claerly have never stood on a full terrace for a big match. As some other poster said we didn''t think anything of it with the surges and bruises just adding to the "experience" even at little old Norwich.

I can only agree with the comment above that there but for the grace of god........

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="macdougall''s perm"][quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

 

Hillsborough wasn''t caused by terracing, a number of other issues caused it.

 

 

Terracing was certainly a contributing factor.

[/quote]

 

No your wrong.

 

The Hillsborough disaster was caused by a huge build up of Liverpool fans outside the Leppings Lane end stand which led to officials and police making the crazy decision to just open the exit gates to the lower tier terrace and let anyone in of the street whether they had a ticket or not as no tickets from that point were checked. (Liverpool fans were well known in the 80''s for turning up in huge numbers for away matches many with no tickets.)

 

With the exit gates opened the crowd outside surged into the penned terrace and in particular the already full middle pen even though the pens each side of this middle one wern''t full. The already full middle pen obviously couldn''t cope with being over full and this is what led to people at the front being crushed with little hope of getting out as the terrace also had fences.

 

Therefore the causes of Hillsborough 1989 were the opening of exit gates letting anyone in of the street ticket or and the penns and fences nothing at all to do with the fact the area was a terrace. If you replicated a similar situation in a seated stand then its likely that similar numbers of casualties would occur.

 

In fact over 100 people died in a crush at a ground called Ellis Park, South Africa (one of the venues for next years world cup I believe) where turnstile operators were letting more people in than what the area held and guess what the stand was all seated.

 

The positive legacy of the following Taylor enquiry was that ground control, grounds and safety at grounds were vastly improved. The negative legacy was that standing areas were outlawed.

 

With the modern day safe nature of football stadia nowadays with much improved stadia, 2nd to none ground control and no more penns and fenced of stands their is no reason why areas of safe standing areas cannot be allowed in football grounds in the top 2 Divisions. At Carrow Road we last had proper standing areas in 1992 yet people still wish to stand in the Barclay lower tier even those to young to remember the old standing areas.

 

Yes Hillsborough was a terrible day that musn''t ever be allowed to happen again but if lower League Football clubs, every other sport and lagre public gathering can allow standing at events then its only fair that we are allowed to have some areas of safe standing allowed at grounds and end the stupid bulls*it that we have every home game in the Barclay lower tier with stewards and those fans complaining about people standing up.

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="BA"][quote user="MonkeyTrousers"]Sorry, bit of a random post, but I was just reading on another thread that it''s the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough tragedy on the 15th April.  My only memory of it is not a proud one - listening to the commentary from Villa Park on the radio with Norwich losing 1-0 to Everton in the other semi-final, and not being in the least bit interested as reports of an incident started to filter through from Hillsborough - the media not being nearly as widespread in their coverage as today.  Thinking "stop talking about it, get back to the Norwich match"... and then as the full story began to emerge, it no longer seemed to matter that we''d lost an FA Cup semi-final.  Well it did, I was gutted.  But it was just a game of football and everyone got home safely.

I''ve just browsed online and seen pictures of the Hillborough pitch carpeted in flowers from end to end, every blade of grass hidden under bouquets and scarves.  There''s something about that image that is terribly sad.  All seater stadia may not be to everyone''s taste, but if it prevents another high profile disaster like this from happening again then so be it.

[/quote] Nothing to do with the fencing, the scousers turning up at 2.50 from the pubs (as they did at Villa Park) and and the 2000 forged tickets then?[/quote]

 

Sun reader are we, or a member of the boys in blue?

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="Hissing Sid"]

Like so many others, I was at Villa Park that day. On arrival at the ground, me and some mates headed towards the top of the huge Holte End terrace. We squeezed our way in, but it really was overcrowded at the back, so we left and made our way lower down. The memories of those on here are vivid in my own mind as well, but a day or two later as I reflected on what had happened I had an overwhelming sense of "There but for the grace of God go I..."

We left the ground aware that something had happened and everyone assumed it had been down to holliganism, but on the journey home it quickly became clear that wasn''t the case. Suddenly he result of our game just didn''t matter. On arriving back at Carrow Road we headed into what is now Yellows and the TV was showing Match of the Day. Well there was no match obviously, just a report and footage of what had happened. I''ll never forget the look on Jimmy Hill''s face as we all stood there open mouthed and shocked at what had occurred.

It was the norm in those days to be packed onto a terrace, anyone remember going to West Ham in the quarter final that year? It never really occurred to me that we could be in any danger going to a football match until Hillsborough. As I said earlier, "There but for the grace of God..."

OTBC

[/quote]

I remember West Ham and thinking back it is a wonder that City fans weren''t seriously injured there. Those who go on about terracing not being a contributing factor claerly have never stood on a full terrace for a big match. As some other poster said we didn''t think anything of it with the surges and bruises just adding to the "experience" even at little old Norwich.

I can only agree with the comment above that there but for the grace of god........

[/quote]

 

I used to stand on packed terraces on countless occasions and was present at the 1989 FA cup Q final at Upton Park where our away end terrace was over full which led to some crushes, fans climbing into the roof to get out of the crush and the police in the control box in front of the stand telling fans to get down with little concern at the overcrowding.; Yes we were lucky nothing serious happened that day.

 

I would never want to go back to those days but a safely managed safe standing areas would be nothing like the old terraces.

 

Safe standing areas would mean every fan standing behind a numbered crush barrier which would eliminate any chance of surges happening. Their would be no penns and fences and exits and walkways would be kept clear just like they are in seated areas. A stand being converted to safe standing from seats such as the Barclay lower tier would see no increase in capacity.

 

A terrible day in history 20 years ago that we should never forget and thankfully we''ve learned from apart from the standing area ban!

[YankeeCanary 0]

Mac, I don''t think remembering Hillsborough should be about who''s right and wrong. I believe the following picture of those that lost loved ones is what it''s about.

[Hooleyfan 0]

I remember the effort I had gone to to get my tickets for the semi-final living in London at the time, having made an early morning run back up to Norwich to queue from about 6am when tickets went on sale. I travelled up to Birmingham by National Express Coach from Victoria to Central Brum in the company of several well oiled Evertonians and kept a low profile throughout, then took the local train from New St to Aston, before squeezing into the Holte End. Like others have said, was only aware of a delayed start at the other semi by the Ground notice board. Obviously disappointed by the game and did the whole return trip in a very low mood, but I dont think I got the Hillsborough story untill I got back into London...Then it hit me, despite the anticipation and excitement of the prospect of an FA Cup Final and the utter disappointment of losing that game, it mattered not a jot in the whole scheme of things. It could as easily have been Villa Park and that was so scary. I was brought up on being buffeted about in the old Barclay, but being in a significantly bigger stand like the Holte End felt so different, a totally uncontrollable movement on exit...all it would have taken was an element of excitement or panic to have turned an uncomfortable experience into something far more sinister...I dont think I went to another game for well over 2 years after that date and as you will understand, will never be a supporter of large standing areas...

as the saying goes“If we don’t learn from history we are doomed to repeat it,"

[macdougalls perm 0]

Don''t think for a second that it is; and certainly didn''t mean to imply that i do if that''s what i''ve done.

Of course it''s about the families and those that lost their lives on that awful day. 

[whoareyou? 0]

It was a bad day in every way.

I do remember being excited about going to see City in a FA Cup semi final knowing we were one step from Wembley and quite capable of winning the game though IIRC Everton were possibly the strongest team in England around that time.

Did Flecky not lose his father the day before the game and was thus unable to play? I seem to remember that being the start of things going wrong.

The Villa Park terrace was also packed tight and do know we could not find anywhere to even stand as the stewards and police would not let us stand in the walkways between the terracing. there were too many people packed in at Villa Park that day too.

The game was a very tense match and i think we knew at half time that some had died at Hillsbrough, though i don''t recollect knowing that it was quite that many or why or how it had happened.

I think by the time the game was over the full horror of what had gone on there was starting to be told.

My wife was at home  and had watched the Hillsbrough tragedy unfold on TV and only the other day she said to me how grateful she was that i had come home from the match as there were lots of people whose relatives and friends never returned from a football match!

A sad sad day! It should be a day for remembering those who died when they went out to enjoy themselves and never came home!

 

 

[John Boubepo 0]

It was and is a huge tragedy for the families who lost relatives in the disaster, my heart will always go out to them.Have to admit though I''m unsure why the country is mourning for the whole of Liverpool, it was after all their own supporters, breaking into the rear of the stadium who caused it in the first place.It would generally be nice if some of them came forward 20 years on and admitted their guilt and apologized for their part in the deaths of their fellow supporters - never going to happen though!

[ndhscanary 0]

[quote user="Croft Has Fcuked Up A Cross Again"]Just seen the culture secretary get ripped to bits by the Anfield crowd. Signing justice for the 96 well and truly shut him up, and showed that those families and the football world as a whole in many ways will not let the police etc. etc. get away with this. I wasn''t born when the tragedy unfolded, but in the last few days I''ve found out about the whole thing and watching this memorial on Sky News has really touched me. R.I.P. 96, You''ll Never Walk Alone.[/quote]

Im in the same boat as you. Wassnt alive back then but have seen in the last few days what a terrible disaster this is. I was reading the other day that the cause of the deaths is accidental death but I dont know how that is at all. I have to say i moan alot these days about the police at football but the policing at that Sheffield Wednesday game sounded appaling. Why that exit gate was opened really puzzles me and also maybe if they would have let a few more ambulances on the pitch they would have saved a few more lives

[whoareyou? 0]

It''s easy to be clever and point fingers with hindsight...there were a lot of factors that day which added up to the tragedy as a whole. It''s too easy to just say the police were at fault when firstly, policing at football in those days was always done with the element of hooliganism around and secondly,  no one in any emergency service would probably have taken the steps they did  if they knew that it might cause such a tragedy!

What would justice mean in this case anyway? It would mean quite a lot of people in various walks of life and with various responsibilities did something which contributed to the tragedy...but no one single person could be held totally to blame!

[In Dubious Battle 0]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

Mac, I don''t think remembering Hillsborough should be about who''s right and wrong. I believe the following picture of those that lost loved ones is what it''s about.

[/quote]It is completely about who was right or wrong, it is about getting justice for the 96 innocent football fans who died because of the ineptitude and brutality of the police force. They have still not had an apology or anybody stand up and take responsibility. Justice for the 96!

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Those who make jokes about Hillsboro bneed to remember 1 thing and 1 thing alone... that one ball Earlier in the draw for the Semi Final was Norwich City...

It could of been your son, your brother, or even you.....

thank lady luck and fate it wasn''t.

jas :)

[/quote]

Not sure that I could completely agree with this, the fact that it was Liverpool wasn''t a coincidence, remember that it was their fans who only 4 years prior to this killed 39 Juventus fans at Heysel, many of which were charged with manslaughter. We don''t see Liverpool having 10 and 20 year memorials for that, instead they sweep this under the carpet and refuse to accept responsibility for it, yet cannot accept that their own fans had a part to play in what happened at Hillsborough and want to find others to blame.

The worst thing is that after all these years, of all sets of fans with their history they STILL don''t appear to have learnt their lesson with other cases of fans turning up without tickets and stampeding at both Instanbul and Athens.

[Shyster 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Those who make jokes about Hillsboro bneed to remember 1 thing and 1 thing alone... that one ball Earlier in the draw for the Semi Final was Norwich City...

It could of been your son, your brother, or even you.....

thank lady luck and fate it wasn''t.

jas :)

[/quote]

Not sure that I could completely agree with this, the fact that it was Liverpool wasn''t a coincidence, remember that it was their fans who only 4 years prior to this killed 39 Juventus fans at Heysel, many of which were charged with manslaughter. We don''t see Liverpool having 10 and 20 year memorials for that, instead they sweep this under the carpet and refuse to accept responsibility for it, yet cannot accept that their own fans had a part to play in what happened at Hillsborough and want to find others to blame.

The worst thing is that after all these years, of all sets of fans with their history they STILL don''t appear to have learnt their lesson with other cases of fans turning up without tickets and stampeding at both Instanbul and Athens.

[/quote]

Hear, hear. 

[In Dubious Battle 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Those who make jokes about Hillsboro bneed to remember 1 thing and 1 thing alone... that one ball Earlier in the draw for the Semi Final was Norwich City...

It could of been your son, your brother, or even you.....

thank lady luck and fate it wasn''t.

jas :)

[/quote]

Not sure that I could completely agree with this, the fact that it was Liverpool wasn''t a coincidence, remember that it was their fans who only 4 years prior to this killed 39 Juventus fans at Heysel, many of which were charged with manslaughter. We don''t see Liverpool having 10 and 20 year memorials for that, instead they sweep this under the carpet and refuse to accept responsibility for it, yet cannot accept that their own fans had a part to play in what happened at Hillsborough and want to find others to blame.

The worst thing is that after all these years, of all sets of fans with their history they STILL don''t appear to have learnt their lesson with other cases of fans turning up without tickets and stampeding at both Instanbul and Athens.

[/quote]Sorry but that is not right, it is well established that the fault lies with the policing of the match and has nothing to do with hooliganism, the actions Liverpool fans in the aftermath of the disaster saved many lives. Their behavior was impeccable. To suggest otherwise especially on a day like today is at best ill informed and at worst disgusting.Hooliganism was rife in the 80''s and was not confined to Liverpool fans, you may well be correct about Heysel but that is not what todays about!   

[Shyster 0]

[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Those who make jokes about Hillsboro bneed to remember 1 thing and 1 thing alone... that one ball Earlier in the draw for the Semi Final was Norwich City...

It could of been your son, your brother, or even you.....

thank lady luck and fate it wasn''t.

jas :)

[/quote]

Not sure that I could completely agree with this, the fact that it was Liverpool wasn''t a coincidence, remember that it was their fans who only 4 years prior to this killed 39 Juventus fans at Heysel, many of which were charged with manslaughter. We don''t see Liverpool having 10 and 20 year memorials for that, instead they sweep this under the carpet and refuse to accept responsibility for it, yet cannot accept that their own fans had a part to play in what happened at Hillsborough and want to find others to blame.

The worst thing is that after all these years, of all sets of fans with their history they STILL don''t appear to have learnt their lesson with other cases of fans turning up without tickets and stampeding at both Instanbul and Athens.

[/quote]Sorry but that is not right, it is well established that the fault lies with the policing of the match and has nothing to do with hooliganism, the actions Liverpool fans in the aftermath of the disaster saved many lives. Their behavior was impeccable. To suggest otherwise especially on a day like today is at best ill informed and at worst disgusting.Hooliganism was rife in the 80''s and was not confined to Liverpool fans, you may well be correct about Heysel but that is not what todays about!    [/quote]

Let''s get things into perspective here:On May 11, 1985, 56 people died in the awful Bradford City fire disaster, yet we hear little to nothing from the media since. May be it would be all over the News like a rash if Bradford had previously won the European Cup a few times.  [:P]

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

My point surrounding Hillsborough wasn''t about hooliganism ,it is about the culture of Liverpool fans throughout their history and leading up even to the present day and of recent European cup finals of "It doesn''t matter if we don''t have tickets - we''ll get in somehow !"-even to the extent of forging tickets!. Well actually is does matter, at best you are denying fellow fans entry into the stadium who have tickets -at worst you are putting people lives in danger -as was displayed in the stampedes in Athens a couple of years ago.

  As I said before it infuriates me that of all clubs - 20 years on this set of fans are still doing the same things -and still trying to find other people to blame.

I will never forgive or forget Liverpool for denying us the chance to play regular European football during th most succesful period f our history, but worst of all, it appears as if it counted for nothing as they haven''t learnt any of those lessons.

[In Dubious Battle 0]

[quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Those who make jokes about Hillsboro bneed to remember 1 thing and 1 thing alone... that one ball Earlier in the draw for the Semi Final was Norwich City...

It could of been your son, your brother, or even you.....

thank lady luck and fate it wasn''t.

jas :)

[/quote]

Not sure that I could completely agree with this, the fact that it was Liverpool wasn''t a coincidence, remember that it was their fans who only 4 years prior to this killed 39 Juventus fans at Heysel, many of which were charged with manslaughter. We don''t see Liverpool having 10 and 20 year memorials for that, instead they sweep this under the carpet and refuse to accept responsibility for it, yet cannot accept that their own fans had a part to play in what happened at Hillsborough and want to find others to blame.

The worst thing is that after all these years, of all sets of fans with their history they STILL don''t appear to have learnt their lesson with other cases of fans turning up without tickets and stampeding at both Instanbul and Athens.

[/quote]Sorry but that is not right, it is well established that the fault lies with the policing of the match and has nothing to do with hooliganism, the actions Liverpool fans in the aftermath of the disaster saved many lives. Their behavior was impeccable. To suggest otherwise especially on a day like today is at best ill informed and at worst disgusting.Hooliganism was rife in the 80''s and was not confined to Liverpool fans, you may well be correct about Heysel but that is not what todays about!    [/quote]

Let''s get things into perspective here:On May 11, 1985, 56 people died in the awful Bradford City fire disaster, yet we hear little to nothing from the media since. May be it would be all over the News like a rash if Bradford had previously won the European Cup a few times.  [:P][/quote]Totally agree with you, but thats the fault of the media. Liverpool fans aren''t trying to win the most popular disaster competition.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Those who make jokes about Hillsboro bneed to remember 1 thing and 1 thing alone... that one ball Earlier in the draw for the Semi Final was Norwich City...

It could of been your son, your brother, or even you.....

thank lady luck and fate it wasn''t.

jas :)

[/quote]

Not sure that I could completely agree with this, the fact that it was Liverpool wasn''t a coincidence, remember that it was their fans who only 4 years prior to this killed 39 Juventus fans at Heysel, many of which were charged with manslaughter. We don''t see Liverpool having 10 and 20 year memorials for that, instead they sweep this under the carpet and refuse to accept responsibility for it, yet cannot accept that their own fans had a part to play in what happened at Hillsborough and want to find others to blame.

The worst thing is that after all these years, of all sets of fans with their history they STILL don''t appear to have learnt their lesson with other cases of fans turning up without tickets and stampeding at both Instanbul and Athens.

[/quote]

Sorry but that is not right, it is well established that the fault lies with the policing of the match and has nothing to do with hooliganism, the actions Liverpool fans in the aftermath of the disaster saved many lives. Their behavior was impeccable. To suggest otherwise especially on a day like today is at best ill informed and at worst disgusting.

Hooliganism was rife in the 80''s and was not confined to Liverpool fans, you may well be correct about Heysel but that is not what todays about!

   
[/quote]



Let''s get things into perspective here:

On May 11, 1985, 56 people died in the awful Bradford City fire disaster, yet we hear little to nothing from the media since. May be it would be all over the News like a rash if Bradford had previously won the European Cup a few times.  [:P]
[/quote]

Totally agree with you, but thats the fault of the media. Liverpool fans aren''t trying to win the most popular disaster competition.

Are you 100% sure about that ?!?
[/quote]

[Shyster 0]

GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary - [quote]20 years on this set of fans are still doing the same things -and still trying to find other people to blame.[/quote]

And it''s those same set of ''fans'' who burgle their own teams players houses to fund their:a) Drugs & ale.b) Season tickets.c) Reasons to shag their sisters.

[ca 1]

We will remember them today and always.

I will never forget the look on people''s faces as they were trying to scramble to safety, people were trying to pull people up out of it, people looked so dazed and scared and I can''t imagine what was going through people''s minds when they knew there was no escape and they had no air to breathe.

Yes there has been a lot of changes to stop this disaster being repeated but for those who lost their loved ones, better and safer grounds must be little consolation 20 years on. . The authorities must make sure that never again do 96 people leave their homes to go to a game of football and fail to return.

My thoughts are with everyone who lost a loved one, we share your pain.

You''ll never walk alone.

[img]http://elrockdelagrada.net23.net/wordpress/wp-content/imagenes/Hillsborough_Memorial.jpg[/img]

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[quote user="shyster"]GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary - [quote]20 years on this set of fans are still doing the same things -and still trying to find other people to blame.[/quote]

And it''s those same set of ''fans'' who burgle their own teams players houses to fund their:a) Drugs & ale.b) Season tickets.c) Reasons to shag their sisters.[/quote]Today is not a day for making anti scoucer jokes, show some respect.

[Shyster 0]

I''m not joking.

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[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

My point surrounding Hillsborough wasn''t about hooliganism ,it is about the culture of Liverpool fans throughout their history and leading up even to the present day and of recent European cup finals of "It doesn''t matter if we don''t have tickets - we''ll get in somehow !"-even to the extent of forging tickets!. Well actually is does matter, at best you are denying fellow fans entry into the stadium who have tickets -at worst you are putting people lives in danger -as was displayed in the stampedes in Athens a couple of years ago.

  As I said before it infuriates me that of all clubs - 20 years on this set of fans are still doing the same things -and still trying to find other people to blame.

I will never forgive or forget Liverpool for denying us the chance to play regular European football during th most succesful period f our history, but worst of all, it appears as if it counted for nothing as they haven''t learnt any of those lessons.

[/quote]Be thankful the worst you had to endure was not seeing us play in Europe many people''s sons, daughters, and husbands didn''t come home from a football match 20 years ago today. I think you''ll cope. There are dozens of clubs in this country who''ve had a troubled past with hooliganism and many still retain elements. Liverpool are not on their own. We ourselves have just seen city fans sent to jail for throwing bricks at people. We must all work to rid football of the last elements of hooliganism.

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[quote user="shyster"]I''m not joking.[/quote]Then you are a moron.Also i think your a bit confused it''s us Norfolk folk that are inbred, or so the jokes go.....