Racist fan MUST get Carrow Rd ban.

[Ramrod 258]

Sorry Paul, I am not going to use this issue as a stick to beat anyone with but I am afraid you don''t really understand the issue and are displaying the sort of fallibility I was initially referring to which needs to be dealt with proportionately and not by everyone trying to elevate themselves by joining in the party line.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="Ramrod"]Sorry Paul, I am not going to use this issue as a stick to beat anyone with but I am afraid you don''t really understand the issue and are displaying the sort of fallibility I was initially referring to which needs to be dealt with proportionately and not by everyone trying to elevate themselves by joining in the party line.[/quote]

Hey I am offering my opinion Ramrod, as for understanding the issue, well, from what I have read on WOTB today, maybe its because I am not a Norfolk boy and so used to hearing these words and views?  I find racism disgusting and am repulsed when I hear it.

The issue is as clear as any issue can be in my eyes.

This chap shouted racial abuse at Dickson Etuhu at Carrow Road, was asked to stop by a fellow supporter, then acted in a manner that caused the supporter to bring the matter to the attention of the police.

Therefore he should be banned from the ground by the club in my opinion.  As for what the judiciary have done, it shouldn''t matter, the club has a policy that hopefully it will follow.

[Saint Canary 0]

Come off it Paul, just because some could get round calling someone a black b* does not mean it ''s not racist.  Who uses the b word in that sense anymore anyway?

It like me shouting at a player for being gay and then being accused of being a homophobe only for me to say that he indeed looked very "happy" on the pitch.

[Canaries for Ever 0]

[quote user="TwoSheds"]

Te bloke has shown his remorse,nothing like that will probably happen at Carrow Road for a few years so just get over it!

[/quote]

Shame he didn''t show his remorse at the game - he was aggressive & thought it funny, looking round for someone to agree with him - he didn''t find anyone.

. and as for frequency, last season, a Leeds supporter in the row behind hit a women sitting next to him a Stewards were trying to remove him. This is just two instances in less than 2 seasons occurring in  2 rows of one block. Surely, we can''t be so unlucky as to be the only spectators of such behaviour!

[peewees dad 0]

I agree - ban the ''fan''. Personally I can''t believe how naive the magistrates were. Do they really believe that someone who shouts racist abuse, and then threatens the person who complains, won''t do it again?

   The magistrates should have made an example of him - instead he''s got off scott-free. What sort of a message does that send to others like him?

   I don''t want my children to hear racist abuse at a football match, solet''s home City kick him out for good.

 

 

 

[Dionysus 0]

For me, there''s a difference between abusing somebody simply because of their colour, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. and using discriminatory terms as part of a heated argument or when somebody has done something to anger or upset you. Although I am against the use of such language, I can understand how differences can be picked up upon and used to display anger or frustration. This can be particularly true in instances where a member of a group lives up to that group''s negative stereotypes.

I believe the fan in question did not abuse Etuhu simply because of his colour. Clearly some people were offended by the word he used. A warning by steward should have been the end of the matter. If he became threatening and aggressive then he deserved to be evicted and he should serve some form of ban.

IMO the do-gooders and polictically correct brigade can sometimes be as bad as the bigots and are part of the reason that our country is in such a mess.

[Ramrod 258]

Paul, the specific issue in question is clear and well made out, what I was referring to was your understanding of the issue as a whole, you keep making contradictory remarks and giving examples which you think are justifiable when in the literal sense they are not.

Let''s not go overboard about this but please consider the bigger picture, on the examples you have given and with the tolerance threshold you set you might find yourself banned from FCR for expressing them.

Don''t for get too that you are probably the chief denigrator of a midfielder who didn''t sign himself and who has been so derided I am amazed at his strength of character to carry on. He had a poor first season here but is guilty of nothing more.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

how long a ban should he get?  Vote in the poll:

http://new.pinkun.com/cs/forums/743210/ShowPost.aspx

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="Saint Canary"]

Come off it Paul, just because some could get round calling someone a black b* does not mean it ''s not racist.  Who uses the b word in that sense anymore anyway?

It like me shouting at a player for being gay and then being accused of being a homophobe only for me to say that he indeed looked very "happy" on the pitch.

[/quote]

You are right saint, but to call someone a scottish bastard does not mean you are having a go at their scottishness, it is just a desriptor, calling a black person some of the above words does have that inherent racism tied in directly to those words in today''s society.  Nobody uses those words apart from in a racist sense - well apart from black people themselves.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

The official line from Norwich City Football Club:

[quote user="NCFC"]

Under the supporters'' charter, we are duty bound to discuss any potential supporters'' bans with the SCG before they are implemented. Rest assured, the decision will be made with the best interests of everyone at Carrow Road and adhering to our policy of not tolerating racism.

James, NCFC

[/quote]

[......and Smith must score. 1,554]

Good to see some calm amongst the storm from contributors Ramrod, Canary 02, Safri 15 and UEA Canary. It does all get a bit hysterical on the message board somtimes but I do wonder what would have happened had the villain of the piece, David Rennie, had been Asian himself ? Would it have come to a court hearing ? Interesting.

As to a Carrow Road ban for the perpetrator at the Luton match the present case does seem to have a precedent. Contributors may recall an evening match v. Bolton at Carrow Road a few seasons back. City were being outplayed ( that narrows it down,then ) and a black Bolton player--- ? Michael Ricketts ? from just in front of the Snakepit curled a superb shot into Green''s right hand top corner to put Bolton 2-0 up. There was immediately a kerfuffle in the Snakepit and a middle-aged Norwich supporter was ejected from his seat and arrested for what we later discovered to be was racist abuse directed towards the goalscorer.

The resulting court case ended with the defendant being fined and banned from Carrow Road for three seasons. As far as I can recall the defendant did not verbally threaten anyone in the crowd, and, it would appear shouted the abuse primarily out of sheer frustration at City''s inadequacies. Whilst I do not condone his actions for one moment I do believe the match was played at some point in the post-Chase era and possibly before the present majority shareholders took control. To put things in context the club was in dire straits at the time. Morale was near to being rock bottom throughout the club and it would have required the patience of a saint for feelings not to have boiled over in some way on that particular night.

To my mind it follows that the current wrongdoer must receive a ban of at least similar length to the Bolton incident, not only to show some consistency,but, at the same time reinforce NCFC''s stance on racist behaviour. However taking into account the feeling of despair at Carrow Road in recent months I suggest that a lifetime ban would be wholly excessive in this instance.

 

 

 

[sheded 0]

All predictable stuff !    have the  callers for this  " beast "  to be banned for life , heard of any complaint from Etuhu  ?   after all , he`s the one  this " racist "  called a n***er !  ...... was  he  present in court  ?  did he make a formal complaint ?  .... because  , in reality , thats how the law works !    in truth ... he NEVER  heard the guy mouthing off !!    so how can he be insulted by something he never heard ?   this man shouts a naughty word   at a football match   , and the inquisition  immediately   begins , I`m surprised  they haven`t  called for  him to be dragged into a dungeon  and tortured !  

I  just don`t like people who  think they have the right  to  dominate what  we should all think and say  !   because , believe me , its THEY  who are  the most corrosive  influence  in society today !   they take on the mantle of the nations concience  , only they  know what is right and wrong ....... stuff `em ! 

I was born  and raised  in a tough area , where blacks  were some 30%  of the  population  ,  if all you sensitive souls  are  appalled  at this  guys " racist " language  , you would curl up into tight little knots  of  agony at the everyday language   prevalent  in the  school I attended ! 

Get things into perspective !     the mans  been dragged into a court   on the accusation ,from a member of the public,  that he uttered some " racist "  words  .........   the judge  didn`t   immediately  sentence him   to life [ about 2 years these days ]   , so   we have calls ,from some posters on this board , for him to be banned for life !   jaysus !!   this man has  not been found to have any " previous "   .....  a one match ban   , leave it at that !  WTF ?  

[Pete Raven 276]

Just to support Graham''s message, someone was ejected from the Lower Barclay a few years ago against Bradford for a racist remark and was subsequently banned from Carrow Road for three seasons so maybe this length is the norm?

[Ramrod 258]

Congratulations Foghorn, you are testing my patience.

I see you have now created a kangaroo court.

This whole debate does throw up the necessity to clarify the whole issueof racism in general and racism in football in particular.

I really think the Club need to ''inform'' on this whole area so not only can the law be understood but also so the issue itself can be understood.

Paul, read and try to understand my original post and then question your own attitudes and understanding. You have been brainwashed by the politically correct and the media, sorry, but you and others are way off beam on this issue; and no, I am not talking about this specific case I am talking about racism and other forms of abuse which basically utilise the same methods and traits.

[Marty 0]

[quote user="sheded"]

All predictable stuff !    have the  callers for this  " beast "  to be banned for life , heard of any complaint from Etuhu  ?   after all , he`s the one  this " racist "  called a n***er !  ...... was  he  present in court  ?  did he make a formal complaint ?  .... because  , in reality , thats how the law works !    in truth ... he NEVER  heard the guy mouthing off !!    so how can he be insulted by something he never heard ?   this man shouts a naughty word   at a football match   , and the inquisition  immediately   begins , I`m surprised  they haven`t  called for  him to be dragged into a dungeon  and tortured !  

I  just don`t like people who  think they have the right  to  dominate what  we should all think and say  !   because , believe me , its THEY  who are  the most corrosive  influence  in society today !   they take on the mantle of the nations concience  , only they  know what is right and wrong ....... stuff `em ! 

I was born  and raised  in a tough area , where blacks  were some 30%  of the  population  ,  if all you sensitive souls  are  appalled  at this  guys " racist " language  , you would curl up into tight little knots  of  agony at the everyday language   prevalent  in the  school I attended ! 

Get things into perspective !     the mans  been dragged into a court   on the accusation ,from a member of the public,  that he uttered some " racist "  words  .........   the judge  didn`t   immediately  sentence him   to life [ about 2 years these days ]   , so   we have calls ,from some posters on this board , for him to be banned for life !   jaysus !!   this man has  not been found to have any " previous "   .....  a one match ban   , leave it at that !  WTF ?  

[/quote]

 

I am no shy and retiring sort but I have no time for this sort of behaviour, I don''t care if you are from the most delightful parts of rural surrey or St Annes in Nottingham this behaviour has no place a football. Background has nothing to do with what we should tolerate, I cannot stand such blase and tolerant attitudes, like say oh well it is out there so let''s live with it. I am not calling for a life ban but I don''t accept your tolerant attitude towards this kind of behaviour, it needs to be punished. So whatever you think sheded if I shout you f-ing n***er at a footy match I do not expect a load of docile and tolerant morons around me to accept it, if they did it would be a sad state of affairs. I am not jumping on the anti racism bandwagon here, just stating that standards of common decency should be defended.

[FilletTheFishWife . 0]

Thank God for a voice of reason of Dionysus and Sheded. .

Perhaps when they put the 2nd tier on the main stand they can call it the "Moral High Ground" and provide seats for the Paul and his fellow paragons of virtue.

Shall we all live in fear of shouting on impluse anything with a racist, sexist or homophobic connotation for fear of a lifetime ban?  People in glass houses - watch out!

 

 

[sheded 0]

[quote user="Web Team - Pete"]Just to support Graham''s message, someone was ejected from the Lower Barclay a few years ago against Bradford for a racist remark and was subsequently banned from Carrow Road for three seasons so maybe this length is the norm?[/quote]

Can`t get the link to work  Pete , so can`t comment on that particular case  ,  even so , I think a three season ban   is just way over the top !   

The man involved in the case in question , Rennie ,  was hustled out of the ground by the police , which has to be a humiliating experience  , questioned in a police station ,  and , subsequently  is brought before a magistrates court  , which fined him  near £500  !   ....... all this  for  a " racist "   remark , made in the heat of the moment , by someone that  has , probably , had a few jars !   

The remark wasn`t heard by Etuhu   ,  but even if it was , I suspect he would just have laughed it off ,     the po- faced  accuser   needs to get a life ,  he`s at a football match  for crisake !   the thought that  this  nerk is monitoring  every single  boozy shout  for racist  content  , makes my flesh creep !   

Rennie is out  some £500 , he`s  had enough  [ thanks to the smug McKechnie ]   , he`s been found to have good character  ,   the reasonable thing for the club to do  is just ignore  this single incident  .....  NO ban  applied ! 

[Marty 0]

[quote user="FilletTheFishWife ."]

Thank God for a voice of reason of Dionysus and Sheded. .

Perhaps when they put the 2nd tier on the main stand they can call it the "Moral High Ground" and provide seats for the Paul and his fellow paragons of virtue.

Shall we all live in fear of shouting on impluse anything with a racist, sexist or homophobic connotation for fear of a lifetime ban?  People in glass houses - watch out!

 

 

[/quote]

 

No, of course I''d have no problem with some total stranger coming to my place of work and shouting "you f-ing h*nkey" at me (for example), they don''t need to be punished, we should accept that shouldn''t we? I hardly Mary Whitehouse but I think that sort of behaviour is a little out of order. As I said before, the odd racist joke between friends isn''t a problem but shouting out something like that in a very public place shouldnt be accepted, fact. It is the abusive nature of what was said that I object to as well as thr racist element.

Nothing to do with the moral high ground, just acceptible standards of common decency.

[Evil Monkey 52]

[quote user="GrahamLast"]

Good to see some calm amongst the storm from contributors Ramrod, Canary 02, Safri 15 and UEA Canary.

[/quote]

Oi, what about me? [;)]

[......and Smith must score. 1,554]

Whilst not wishing to make light of what is indeed a serious subject it has occurred to me, that, should David Rennie escape a Carrow Road banning order, can he insist on one being implemented under his human rights bearing in mind the dross masquerading as entertainment that was served up there last season ?

Just a thought.....

 

[Saint Canary 0]

[quote user="Marty"][quote user="FilletTheFishWife ."]

Thank God for a voice of reason of Dionysus and Sheded. .

Perhaps when they put the 2nd tier on the main stand they can call it the "Moral High Ground" and provide seats for the Paul and his fellow paragons of virtue.

Shall we all live in fear of shouting on impluse anything with a racist, sexist or homophobic connotation for fear of a lifetime ban?  People in glass houses - watch out!

 

 

[/quote]

 

No, of course I''d have no problem with some total stranger coming to my place of work and shouting "you f-ing h*nkey" at me (for example), they don''t need to be punished, we should accept that shouldn''t we? I hardly Mary Whitehouse but I think that sort of behaviour is a little out of order. As I said before, the odd racist joke between friends isn''t a problem but shouting out something like that in a very public place shouldnt be accepted, fact. It is the abusive nature of what was said that I object to as well as thr racist element.

Nothing to do with the moral high ground, just acceptible standards of common decency.

[/quote]

I''m not saying you''re wrong Marty but I think the problem with a lot of cases like this is that people tend to go over the top. No it''s not nice, yes it should be punished and he has been.  The problem as I see is that people (not you) tend to over react to things like this and not keep it in context, a life time ban is far too long and I think half of the shouting for it is caused by people''s desire to "prove" that they themselves are not racist. 

[Pete Raven 276]

Here you go sheded:

http://new.pinkun.com/search/story.aspx?brand=PINKUNOnline&category=Norwich&itemid=NOED22%20Jan%202004%2012:53:28:800&tBrand=PINKUNOnline&tCategory=search

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,210]

I accept that I may have over reacted without knowing the full story, the report on the incident does not say what word was used, but the inference is that it was more than refering to Etuhu as "black", that said even that descriptor is unnaceptable in my mind, after all I did not hear the descriptor "white" being used when fans were abusing Andy Hughes. It is not a question of taking the moral high ground, as Marty has said it is about common decency.

[canary cherub 1]

[quote user="sheded"]

[quote user="Web Team - Pete"]Just to support Graham''s message, someone was ejected from the Lower Barclay a few years ago against Bradford for a racist remark and was subsequently banned from Carrow Road for three seasons so maybe this length is the norm?[/quote]

Can`t get the link to work  Pete , so can`t comment on that particular case  ,  even so , I think a three season ban   is just way over the top !   

The man involved in the case in question , Rennie ,  was hustled out of the ground by the police , which has to be a humiliating experience  , questioned in a police station ,  and , subsequently  is brought before a magistrates court  , which fined him  near £500  !   ....... all this  for  a " racist "   remark , made in the heat of the moment , by someone that  has , probably , had a few jars !   

The remark wasn`t heard by Etuhu   ,  but even if it was , I suspect he would just have laughed it off ,     the po- faced  accuser   needs to get a life ,  he`s at a football match  for crisake !   the thought that  this  nerk is monitoring  every single  boozy shout  for racist  content  , makes my flesh creep !   

Rennie is out  some £500 , he`s  had enough  [ thanks to the smug McKechnie ]   , he`s been found to have good character  ,   the reasonable thing for the club to do  is just ignore  this single incident  .....  NO ban  applied ! 

[/quote]

Sheded you''re remarkably naive for someone from a so-called "tough" estate in Nottingham.  Your inner city chauvinism doesn''t impress me at all. 

Apart from anything else, you''re way out of date.  Judging by the changes in attitude and behaviour that took place in the east end of London while I was living there (1986-2000), I think you''d find that things are radically different now.  The days when people used words like n***er as everyday currency are long gone.  No one uses that sort of language now now unless they have racist sympathies.  They know exactly what they''re doing.

Whilst I think that a life ban is too extreme, there is such a thing as zero tolerance.  Nip it in the bud now or it will grow.  Do we really want to go back to the 1970s?  We''re way ahead of most other countries in tackling racism, and that''s the way it should stay imo.

 

[sheded 0]

Afraid its you who are naive and out of date Megson !    I wasn`t trying to impress you , or anyone else ,  with my " Inner city  chauvinism "    .....  sadly  , Nottingham  is now the crime capital  of Britain   ,  and its getting worse !   the district I used to live in   now has at least one shooting a week .....   check it out !

Zero tolerance ?  this has been tried , where it all goes tits up is that  the race relations  industry start squawking  about racial prejudice   and intimidation   because the police  began  a stop and search  of all cars driven by blacks !   sorry to make you cringe ,  but it IS the blacks who are carrying guns , which they use  against  drug dealers  trying to muscle into  " their patch "   ,  so the  authorities  knuckled under to the  liberals  ,  and there`s near anarchy on the streets !      so much for your  theory  that we are way ahead of  other countries in tackling racism !   or have the events of the last few weeks  just passed you by ? 

Back to football ,  if you start to  practice zero tolerance   against  a crowd of , say, 26 thousand ,  just how is this going to be enforced ?   employ   about 2000 stewards  ?   yeah , the club  could afford  their wages ?      once a person is accused of racism   , and is banned by the club  , its then open to the accused to take legal action   for libel , and false arrest !   if even ONE case  is proved against the club   , it could involve a payout in damages    ranging in the thousands  ....  you DO see where this is going ?  

I`ve no idea  what the east end of London  was like in the period you mention  .... bad was it ?  [:P]

[Herb 0]

[quote user="mystic megson"]

Whilst I think that a life ban is too extreme, there is such a thing as zero tolerance.  Nip it in the bud now or it will grow.  Do we really want to go back to the 1970s?  We''re way ahead of most other countries in tackling racism, and that''s the way it should stay imo.

[/quote]I tend to agree mm.A lifetime ban would be over the top for 99% of these sort of offences, but a years ban for a first offence would probably focus the mind of all but the most mindless.After that its up to them. Anyone saying "its only words, you hear bad language at football, whats the difference?" have obviously never been on the receiving end of such abuse.As someone who''s taken a kicking for standing up to this sort of brain-dead mentality, I can tell you I''d do the same again. I remember being incensed to the point of getting violent with my telly when England played someone in a friendly a couple of years back (was it Spain?) and our black players came in for hideous abuse from the crowd.Now I''m a generally placid bloke, it takes a lot to get me in a state, but that brought back bad memories from the early 80s and had I actually been at the match I don''t know if I''d have been fully responsible for my actions.

[TwoSheds 0]

Read this & then think long & hard!

Goodbye to my England,
So long my old friend,
Your days they are numbered, been brought to an end.
To be Scottish or Irish, or Welsh is just fine,
But don’t say you’re English, that’s way out of line.

The French and the Germans,
May call themselves such,
As may the Norwegians, the Swedes and the Dutch.
You can say you are Russian, or maybe a Dane,
But don’t say you’re English, not ever again.

At Broadcasting House,
This word is taboo,
In Brussels they have scrapped it, in Parliament too.
Even schools are affected, staff do as they’re told,
“You must not teach the English, about the England of old”.

Writers like Shakespeare,
Milton and Shaw,
Don’t pupils learn about these anymore?
Hastings and Agincourt, Arnhen or mons,
Where England lost many of her very brave sons

We are not Europeans,
How on earth can we be?
Europe is miles away over the sea
We are English, from England, so let’s all be proud
And stand up and be counted and shout it out loud.


Let’s tell our government, tell the suits in Brussels too
We are proud of our heritage, the red white and blue.
Fly the flag of St George, or the Union Jack
Tell all of the world, we want our own country back.

[sheded 0]

[quote user="Web Team - Pete"]

Here you go sheded:

http://new.pinkun.com/search/story.aspx?brand=PINKUNOnline&category=Norwich&itemid=NOED22%20Jan%202004%2012:53:28:800&tBrand=PINKUNOnline&tCategory=search

[/quote]

Read it through a number of times Pete ,   and no-one , repeat no-one  , will convince me that  Barker deserved   all that punishment  ,  one  boozy remark   and he`s treated like a criminal  !  this stuff is getting really silly !!   it might give the politically correct  superintendant   some smug satisfaction  , but  , in the end , its all counter productive  .....   it creates  animosity   in the majority of fans   that would regard  Barkers remark  as  hardly worth bothering with !  did any fan from Bradford make a complaint ?  I think not  !  

Just a point here , and that is  the power of the police  to prevent  Barker  from travelling abroad   ?   taking his passport away  ....    strange that the  mouthy   civil rights  gang remain silent  about this  !  but maybe not eh ?   most of us know where THEY are coming from .......[;)]

[still holding out for new heroes 0]

the balanced approach for me would be a short term ban (Christmas / end of season), get the stewards to monitor and make it clear to him that a repeat would lead to a longer ban....whilst not taking away from the fact that racism is abhorrent and unacceptable in modern society, people are entitled to a second chance and to learn from their mistakes, in these circumstances

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

I have to intervene, this thread is starting to go off beam and be ruled by people''s personal experiences.

Going back to the theme of the post; if the fan in question had accepted the advice nothing more would have happened: but he couldn''t leave it, could he. He got nasty and brought it all on himself.

Yes, he should get a ban for his behaviour in general until the end of the season and he can go on the famous waiting list.

The ''Kick Racism Out Of Football'' issue needs re-visiting and it needs explaining to supporters; not in the sense of: if you say x they y will happen but properly explain why it is necessary to try to eradicate bigotry and the effect of such on peoples lives.

I remember meeting up with a nice Indian family on holiday in Devon one year. Apart from the woman''s sari they were no different from all the other families gathered in the large club-room. They had two little boys and wanted the same from their holiday as the rest of us. On came the comedian, and as part of his act out came some racist jokes. I remember seeing him glance our way as he did so, clearly not expecting to see the target of his humour in an otherwise all white audience. The asian family acquiesced with the humour, as victims often do, and laughed with it, but I realy felt for them, it was very uncomfortable.

We can all point at the extremists or criminal classes from all backgrounds but it is sometimes harder to see the positives.

Black players have often appeared to find it difficult to settle in Norfolk where there is no black community. We at least owe it to those who want to try, like Dickson Etuhu, to make them feel welcome.

I bet the wrongdoer in this instance has been forced to reflect on the banality of his words and behaviour, I hope he has come up with the correct answers.