Centre back conundrum

[RobJames 883]

As elsewhere we have Jonathan Tomkinson, Emmanuel c and Jaden Warner and Brad Hills all out on loan, looking to grab a place should we still be in the Championship next season. Possibly one of Tompinkinson and Warner at this stage.

 Emmanuel Adegboyega could do a Chris Sutton and move up front, as he certainly seems to know where the goal is.The opposition goal that is.

Batth is out of contract and off. Gibson is out of contract but should stay. Hanley has a year left but has looked woeful since returning and is currently out of sorts. Duffy has another season in him. With Lungi I would suggest we have  three decent CB's so one of the above four will be given the chance to step up. As well as Lungi has done I would prefer to see him play further forward and only be used in the back line when others are not available.

Moving it a bit, I wonder if Reyes is up to replacing Gunn should he be offered a decent move. A brilliant season so far and as much as he clearly loves the club, I doubt anyone would begrudge him a hefty increase in his wages and a chance at the 'big time'.  Gunn has been the difference. With bench warmer Long we would probably be in the bottom half. Gunn gets my Player of the Season vote.

[Top corner 228]

Describing Hanley as being woeful is extremely harsh, he's just coming back from a longterm injury & he didn't have a pre-season.

[RobJames 883]

38 minutes ago, Top corner said:

Describing Hanley as being woeful is extremely harsh, he's just coming back from a longterm injury & he didn't have a pre-season.

eh ?

It is a comment on how he has been. Woeful is probably being kind. If he was not ready he should not have been played. As is now recognised.

[yellowrider120 767]

8 minutes ago, RobJames said:

eh ?

It is a comment on how he has been. Woeful is probably being kind. If he was not ready he should not have been played. As is now recognised.

Agreed - again!

[yellowrider120 767]

2 hours ago, RobJames said:

As elsewhere we have Jonathan Tomkinson, Emmanuel c and Jaden Warner and Brad Hills all out on loan, looking to grab a place should we still be in the Championship next season. Possibly one of Tompinkinson and Warner at this stage.

 Emmanuel Adegboyega could do a Chris Sutton and move up front, as he certainly seems to know where the goal is.The opposition goal that is.

Batth is out of contract and off. Gibson is out of contract but should stay. Hanley has a year left but has looked woeful since returning and is currently out of sorts. Duffy has another season in him. With Lungi I would suggest we have  three decent CB's so one of the above four will be given the chance to step up. As well as Lungi has done I would prefer to see him play further forward and only be used in the back line when others are not available.

Moving it a bit, I wonder if Reyes is up to replacing Gunn should he be offered a decent move. A brilliant season so far and as much as he clearly loves the club, I doubt anyone would begrudge him a hefty increase in his wages and a chance at the 'big time'.  Gunn has been the difference. With bench warmer Long we would probably be in the bottom half. Gunn gets my Player of the Season vote.

Not entirely sure about BG staying but in general I agree with everything else particularly that highlighted.

[Monty13 2,235]

I really don’t see Ben Gibson staying he’s apparently one of the top earners and, as much as I personally like him, he’s done little to deserve that if true.

[TheGunnShow 5,966]

Missed McLean out. I'd be happy letting Gibson go with McLean as his left-footed centre-half replacement. There really should be room for a young centre-half or two considering the ones out on loan.

[Ulfotto 640]

I mean if get promoted I’d (if is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence) hazard a guess they will all be back out on loan.

If we don’t I guess it depends on the size of the clear out. I would assume Gibson and Batth and Sorensen as well we’ll have Duffy and Hanley I reckon two will remain and the others will be back out on loan.

Anyone seen any of them actually play? I thought Warner had a lot of learn when he appeared for us this season although he did come into the team at a very difficult time. Seen nothing of Hills

[RobJames 883]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Missed McLean out. I'd be happy letting Gibson go with McLean as his left-footed centre-half replacement. There really should be room for a young centre-half or two considering the ones out on loan.

I wondered who would be the first to spot that 😊

You are right, McLean did a good job in the back four, however I see him as more a stop gap, as with Lungi

Gibson has improved and now looks solid, but would he stay for Championship wages (new contract).  I would be surprised if any other club would offer him any better.

Sorensen - we have another year option.

I'm minded to agree with the above.  All four need another year or so. They need to prove themselves in L1 or even lower Championship before making the squad with us. Better developing elsewhere than sat on the bench here. It is a testament to the recruiting and the academy that we have this 'wealth' of talent.

Meanwhile, Kamara. As it stands he would not be first choice, so maybe better another years loan. However we don't know who might be heading out from CR in the summer.  He needs to be here only if he is good enough, not simply to make up the numbers. All evidence suggests that he is.

Mind you Pompey might try to buy him, in that case we will have a chorus of  'pay up Pompey, Pompey pay up'

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,169]

3 minutes ago, RobJames said:

I wondered who would be the first to spot that 😊

You are right, McLean did a good job in the back four, however I see him as more a stop gap, as with Lungi

Gibson has improved and now looks solid, but would he stay for Championship wages (new contract).  I would be surprised if any other club would offer him any better.

Sorensen - we have another year option.

I'm minded to agree with the above.  All four need another year or so. They need to prove themselves in L1 or even lower Championship before making the squad with us. Better developing elsewhere than sat on the bench here. It is a testament to the recruiting and the academy that we have this 'wealth' of talent.

Meanwhile, Kamara. As it stands he would not be first choice, so maybe better another years loan. However we don't know who might be heading out from CR in the summer.  He needs to be here only if he is good enough, not simply to make up the numbers. All evidence suggests that he is.

Mind you Pompey might try to buy him, in that case we will have a chorus of  'pay up Pompey, Pompey pay up'

 

I know a Pompey fan - apparently they're all hoping we get promoted so that they've got a chance of having Kamara on loan for another season in the Championship. 

[Top corner 228]

2 hours ago, RobJames said:

eh ?

It is a comment on how he has been. Woeful is probably being kind. If he was not ready he should not have been played. As is now recognised.

The only way to build up Hanley to being match fit is to give him minutes on the pitch. He's has played for the U21s & the fitness team & Wagner think he's now ready for minutes with the first team. I agree that he isn't yet match fit & back to his best, but woeful....I don't think so personally. 

[Old Shuck 185]

Of all the young players looking to break through next season, I'd put Adegboyega at the front and the most likely to be a first team regular by this time next year.

Likewise, in time, Montoia. Think the two of them are stand outs at the moment in a very promising group.

[RobJames 883]

13 hours ago, Top corner said:

The only way to build up Hanley to being match fit is to give him minutes on the pitch. He's has played for the U21s & the fitness team & Wagner think he's now ready for minutes with the first team. I agree that he isn't yet match fit & back to his best, but woeful....I don't think so personally. 

"minutes on the pitch" ?

You do not use a first team place to improve players fitness, they should be fully fit BEFORE they are even considered.  Building up fitness is done at Colney then youth games. Wagner and the coaches must have considered Hanley was fully fit, he was not, as was evidenced at Boro.

How serious the injury/problem is we are not told, but it could be worse than feared. We shall see. But the idea that you put unfit players in the first team to give them 'minutes' is beyond ridiculous.

 

[TheGunnShow 5,966]

14 hours ago, RobJames said:

I wondered who would be the first to spot that 😊

You are right, McLean did a good job in the back four, however I see him as more a stop gap, as with Lungi

Gibson has improved and now looks solid, but would he stay for Championship wages (new contract).  I would be surprised if any other club would offer him any better.

Sorensen - we have another year option.

I'm minded to agree with the above.  All four need another year or so. They need to prove themselves in L1 or even lower Championship before making the squad with us. Better developing elsewhere than sat on the bench here. It is a testament to the recruiting and the academy that we have this 'wealth' of talent.

Meanwhile, Kamara. As it stands he would not be first choice, so maybe better another years loan. However we don't know who might be heading out from CR in the summer.  He needs to be here only if he is good enough, not simply to make up the numbers. All evidence suggests that he is.

Mind you Pompey might try to buy him, in that case we will have a chorus of  'pay up Pompey, Pompey pay up'

 

I wouldn't be surprised, as he slows down slightly, if McLean finishes his career at centre-half and have said this before. Didn't stop the likes of Javier Mascherano doing an excellent job at it for Barcelona and Anatoliy Tymoshchuk making a good fist of it at Bayern Munich. McLean's problem in midfield for me is that he's always had his positioning a bit askew as he thinks he can pick interceptions where he can't, and leaves gaps by being too hasty. When he's got no option but to be in a line, his positional game improves considerably.

Throw in his left foot to open up attacks down our left flank, comfort on the ball relative to anyone else we've had playing centre-half, no little ability to compete in the air, and the extra time he has to stride out with the ball and start picking line-breaking passes, and I'd be well-up for him continuing there, allowing Nunez to be a deep-lying playmaker and Sara to rumble forward regularly.

McLean and Duffy or Hanley strikes me as a tidy old pairing. Duffy wins practically every header if a ball's tossed in and whilst Hanley's also excellent in the air, a fully fit Hanley also provides us with plenty of pace in the middle.

[vlad666 203]

Regarding Hanley. Those serious Achilles injuries often result in the player never being the same player again. Especially effecting pace and mobility. 
Gibsons wages are massive and there’s no way he stays in my opinion. 
Adegboyaga potentially looks the best of the lot. I assume most will be loaned again next season with one retained to be around the first team. 

[RobJames 883]

I do wonder if that is what has happened to Hanley.

As to Gibson his contract is up in June. So any contract/wages, will be what is offered by us. He can accept, or move on.

The question with the four 'youths' is whether another year out on loan is better than a season mostly bench warming. Though having seen how quick Omo broke through the club may feel one of those could follow the same 'fast-track'.

Not a bad position for us to be in.

[Indy 3,307]

1 hour ago, RobJames said:

I do wonder if that is what has happened to Hanley.

As to Gibson his contract is up in June. So any contract/wages, will be what is offered by us. He can accept, or move on.

The question with the four 'youths' is whether another year out on loan is better than a season mostly bench warming. Though having seen how quick Omo broke through the club may feel one of those could follow the same 'fast-track'.

Not a bad position for us to be in.

Without promotion we will be looking to trim the wages, so I can see Batth & Gibson going, Duffy & Hanley (though I don’t rate either) will be here next year to push these youngsters on. No doubt if we stay in the championship we will look to our academy as said by Knapper and we do need to invest in developing what we can afford, be it two stay and two back out on loan. I’m sure whoever and whichever the situation will have the summer to oversee the prospects and make those choices, but I’d be very surprised to see any of those senior players bar Sorensen & McCallum given a contract to sign, their choice if they want to stay. Can’t see the rest here come next August IMO.

[Capt. Pants 4,263]

More on the Hanley fitness situation below. Not sure if this is a thinly veiled criticism from Wagner or not, but clearly he has work to do to get back in contention.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/24194849.norwich-citys-grant-hanley-scotland-withdrawal-confirmed/

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

Firstly we have to go all out for promotion and as difficult as this might seem this fully fit team has shown enough in the recent run to achieve just that, imo. We have the individuals to pull rabbits out of the hat in tight games. The defence and current midfield organisation is the best it has been this season. Wagner has become half decent in his job. 

If we go up, I feel that it should be seen as a free-hit with moderate expense involving a few decent signings and considered loans and trying to avoid the Webber efforts which fell between the two extremes of either not spending enough (he maxed on this because of our limitations) or being frugal enough. The result being rock bottom yet broke. The worst of two worlds.

Getting relegated is no shame and even if it is with a low points tally and some humiliation at the hands of the big boys we won't be the first.

Use the money made from television, merits etc and parachutes and full=houses to re-build. See if Knapper can make a better job of it than Webber with anybody but a Smith.

Re-building in the Chumps is virtually impossible nowadays and will likely take years of loss making. We could of course re-build based upon our youth set-up and production line, but this will also take years as we will have to sell the cream to cover losses.

Take the money and run. Smash and grab. Yo-yo. TINA.

[pete 320]

Get promoted sign everyone on new contracts that is what we did in 2019/20.  Instead of offering players significant bonuses on staying up might be a different way to handle promotion.  After all a successful season in a relegation would entice moves post relegation that would be attractive.

[Top corner 228]

3 hours ago, RobJames said:

"minutes on the pitch" ?

You do not use a first team place to improve players fitness, they should be fully fit BEFORE they are even considered.  Building up fitness is done at Colney then youth games. Wagner and the coaches must have considered Hanley was fully fit, he was not, as was evidenced at Boro.

How serious the injury/problem is we are not told, but it could be worse than feared. We shall see. But the idea that you put unfit players in the first team to give them 'minutes' is beyond ridiculous.

 

No player recovering from a long-term injury is ever match fit until they've first played U21 football, they are then reintroduced back into first team football to gain more fitness. We are told that U21s football is a level below first team standards, hence why they are initially introduced to U21 football first, then when our fitness team at colney believes that Hanley is ready, he is then slowly reintroduced to first team football. Unfortunately we've had Duffy & Gibson out injured in recent weeks, so I would guess that Hanley had to start playing first team football before he was 100% ready because of having 1 or more central defender's out injured. But back to my original point, you describing Hanley as woeful is harsh, he certainly isn't 100% match fit he, but that will come from playing more first team games. 

[RobJames 883]

" as we will have to sell the cream to cover losses. "

What losses  ?

Players will leave either way. Other clubs can offer more - that is the reality whatever league we are in. We have NOT put ourselves into a position where we cannot cover outgoings.

As to us 'going all out for it', I would expect that approach for any competitive game

[RobJames 883]

20 minutes ago, Top corner said:

No player recovering from a long-term injury is ever match fit until they've first played U21 football, they are then reintroduced back into first team football to gain more fitness. We are told that U21s football is a level below first team standards, hence why they are initially introduced to U21 football first, then when our fitness team at colney believes that Hanley is ready, he is then slowly reintroduced to first team football. Unfortunately we've had Duffy & Gibson out injured in recent weeks, so I would guess that Hanley had to start playing first team football before he was 100% ready because of having 1 or more central defender's out injured. But back to my original point, you describing Hanley as woeful is harsh, he certainly isn't 100% match fit he, but that will come from playing more first team games. 

Whatever way you spin it, players are not put in the first team to help their fitness. They are either ready or not. You even recognise that yourself. " then when our fitness team at colney believes that Hanley is ready"

He was judged to be fit, however it would appear the injury 're-occured'. Hanleys play was woeful. Did you watch us v Boro ?

As to playing someone who is not 100% fi, over someobe who is, so as to supposedly get him fit is utterly absurd

[Robert N. LiM 4,429]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

Firstly we have to go all out for promotion and as difficult as this might seem this fully fit team has shown enough in the recent run to achieve just that, imo. We have the individuals to pull rabbits out of the hat in tight games. The defence and current midfield organisation is the best it has been this season. Wagner has become half decent in his job. 

If we go up, I feel that it should be seen as a free-hit with moderate expense involving a few decent signings and considered loans and trying to avoid the Webber efforts which fell between the two extremes of either not spending enough (he maxed on this because of our limitations) or being frugal enough. The result being rock bottom yet broke. The worst of two worlds.

Getting relegated is no shame and even if it is with a low points tally and some humiliation at the hands of the big boys we won't be the first.

Use the money made from television, merits etc and parachutes and full=houses to re-build. See if Knapper can make a better job of it than Webber with anybody but a Smith.

Re-building in the Chumps is virtually impossible nowadays and will likely take years of loss making. We could of course re-build based upon our youth set-up and production line, but this will also take years as we will have to sell the cream to cover losses.

Take the money and run. Smash and grab. Yo-yo. TINA.

Have really come round to this view. Especially with, hopefully, a bit more wiggle room on transfer fees and wages thanks to Attanasio and his connections.

 

[TheGunnShow 5,966]

1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

More on the Hanley fitness situation below. Not sure if this is a thinly veiled criticism from Wagner or not, but clearly he has work to do to get back in contention.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/24194849.norwich-citys-grant-hanley-scotland-withdrawal-confirmed/

I don't think that's criticism at all, it's realistic that a player known for his pace, as Hanley is, will need quite a lot of work to give himself a chance to get back to that sort of explosiveness - assuming recovery from such an injury to that extent is indeed possible. A prolonged period of different training is needed for that.

He's clearly match fit or thereabouts or he wouldn't have got through the games he did after injury - but such a long time out has inevitably gnawed at his physical peak and he's not the same player, so this is about giving him a chance with much more tailored training to get back to it where possible.

[Top corner 228]

31 minutes ago, RobJames said:

Whatever way you spin it, players are not put in the first team to help their fitness. They are either ready or not. You even recognise that yourself. " then when our fitness team at colney believes that Hanley is ready"

He was judged to be fit, however it would appear the injury 're-occured'. Hanleys play was woeful. Did you watch us v Boro ?

As to playing someone who is not 100% fi, over someobe who is, so as to supposedly get him fit is utterly absurd

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. 

[Top corner 228]

34 minutes ago, RobJames said:

Whatever way you spin it, players are not put in the first team to help their fitness. They are either ready or not. You even recognise that yourself. " then when our fitness team at colney believes that Hanley is ready"

He was judged to be fit, however it would appear the injury 're-occured'. Hanleys play was woeful. Did you watch us v Boro ?

As to playing someone who is not 100% fi, over someobe who is, so as to supposedly get him fit is utterly absurd

When I mentioned "then when our fitness team at colney believes he's ready" what I was trying to say is, the fitness team at colney will tell Wagner that he's ready to step up to first team games, so he can gain more fitness after such a long time out. Players who return from a long term injury don't just immediately start first team games & expect to be fully match fit, it takes many games. Like I said in my earlier message, we will have to agree to disagree. 

[NewNestCarrow 202]

Hills - born March 2004, contract 2025 +1.  40+ games of senior football under his belt. Worn the Captain's armband on two occasions, clearly a sign of leadership qualities & his growth this season.

Warner - born Oct 2002, contract 2025. Fewer than 10 games of senior football under his belt.

Tomkinson - born Apr 2002, contract 2025 +1.  25+ games of senior football under his belt, but playing for USA u23s at Olympics this summer. Did struggle to break into the Bradford side but seeming a first-choice now that Sparky has gone.

Adegboyega - born Sep 2003, contract ??. Fewer than 10 games of senior football under his belt.

In my view I think Hills & Tomkinson are the two closest to the NCFC senior squad, with Warner & Adegboyea going out on loan again. However the Academy system is there to produce financial benefits and, if a decent offer comes in for any of these four then the Depth Chart changes.

[RobJames 883]

1 minute ago, Top corner said:

When I mentioned "then when our fitness team at colney believes he's ready" what I was trying to say is, the fitness team at colney will tell Wagner that he's ready to step up to first team games, so he can gain more fitness after such a long time out. Players who return from a long term injury don't just immediately start first team games & expect to be fully match fit, it takes many games. Like I said in my earlier message, we will have to agree to disagree. 

You have gone from contradiction to making up stuff. ..."Players who return from a long term injury don't just immediately start first team games ". No one stated they do. Though all evidence is that when players ARE fit they return to full first team play.

They do not return when less than 100%, so as to improve their fitness, that is an absurd thought. The reality is Hanley was judged to be fully fit and ready for first team games. However there is something amiss, as " he is not as explosive and as sharp as he was when he was on his best. "

You will note that Wagner is talking about individual training, away from the first team, not about giving him 'minutes' in the first team over a player who is fit. And it is that comment from Wagner that backs my thought about Hanley being woeful.

[RobJames 883]

29 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

Hills - born March 2004, contract 2025 +1.  40+ games of senior football under his belt. Worn the Captain's armband on two occasions, clearly a sign of leadership qualities & his growth this season.

Warner - born Oct 2002, contract 2025. Fewer than 10 games of senior football under his belt.

Tomkinson - born Apr 2002, contract 2025 +1.  25+ games of senior football under his belt, but playing for USA u23s at Olympics this summer. Did struggle to break into the Bradford side but seeming a first-choice now that Sparky has gone.

Adegboyega - born Sep 2003, contract ??. Fewer than 10 games of senior football under his belt.

In my view I think Hills & Tomkinson are the two closest to the NCFC senior squad, with Warner & Adegboyea going out on loan again. However the Academy system is there to produce financial benefits and, if a decent offer comes in for any of these four then the Depth Chart changes.

I cannot recall any youth player being allowed to leave before he has been established in the first team - other than those thought 'not up to it'.

There is also the no small matter the contribution former youth players make to the team when they step up. Not to be sneezed at, some might suggest.