Josh Sargent injured and a "late call" if he makes the match

[Petriix 2,838]

25 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

So either way, how does he win with the doubters?

Er, by not telling them to stay at home?

Nobody is still claiming that his substitutions were wrong. He should just have accepted that people were unhappy in that moment and maybe said something at the end about hoping he'd proved a few people wrong.

[Google Bot 3,278]

11 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Er, by not telling them to stay at home?

But his speech after the game was as result of the doubters booing and the proven inability to win with them despite previous good results and justified decisions.   It wasn't the cause.

11 minutes ago, Petriix said:

He should just have accepted that people were unhappy in that moment and maybe said something at the end about hoping he'd proved a few people wrong.

Think you'll find that his outburst was less about him and more about protecting the team and players.  As previous to what he goes on to say, he references speaking with players and staff about the situation prior to him coming out (later than usual) to give the post match interviews.

He has a new player at the club who's excited to play in England and the club have probably sold why they're such a good destination for him, i'd imagine he was confused as hell.  Just to highlight one probable example.

Not to mention Sarge's reaction who you can see apologise to Wagner as he embraces leaving the pitch, and how it must've felt for Nunez and Fassnacht coming on to that.

Edited February 17 by Google Bot

[hogesar 9,676]

53 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Er, by not telling them to stay at home?

Nobody is still claiming that his substitutions were wrong. He should just have accepted that people were unhappy in that moment and maybe said something at the end about hoping he'd proved a few people wrong.

His issue is with protecting the players who I can promise you, are still hugely confused and lacking understanding of our fans attitude right now.

[The Bunny 309]

8 hours ago, Petriix said:

Not at all. The substitutions were fairly typical of the sort of tactical decisions that Wagner regularly makes. Previously it was Rowe being subbed like clockwork on 60 minutes despite being our best attacking threat. It's entirely reasonable for people to have assumed it was more of the same, especially after the previous game. 

And, yes, Wagner absolutely is to blame for making such a faux pas because he's employed by the club in a professional capacity while the fans are the customers who ultimately pay his wages. Imagine how it would look if you came out and publicly slated your customers for giving your product a bad review.

I'd have thought the primary purpose of your job is to deliver the best possible customer experience so as to maximise revenue; if people criticised your work because the end product was poor then it probably wouldn't go down too well if you published a video telling them that they should simply not buy your product. That's effectively what Wagner has done.

Ultimately the fans don't have any responsibility, aren't accountable and don't have any real input to the way the club is managed. All they can do is provide immediate feedback on what they see on the pitch. People genuinely were trying to create an atmosphere but the game went totally flat because of the poor performance for a prolonged period. 

Given the context of the match, our previous defeat against Watford having been 2-0 up and the QPR draw it doesn't take much emotional intelligence to understand that the fans might have been frustrated. As a professional, Wagner should take it on the chin. Not because the fans were right, but because he's digging himself into a hole from which he's unlikely to be able to escape. 

Managers simply don't come back from this kind of outburst. That's on him. I can't see him surviving beyond the summer regardless of how the season ends. And that's a shame because he has actually done a half decent job of improving things since Webber left. 

You have a strange idea of a football manager's job if you think clubs employ them to "deliver the best possible customer experience". Wagner isn't manager of McDonalds; his job is solely to get results. Typically one follows the other of course, but apparently not always. As evidenced by the fact that we've won 5 out of the last 7, and yet a vocal minority (including yourself) are apparently livid (dare I suggest, even more so than if we were losing). 

The suggestion "ultimately the fans don't have any responsibility, aren't accountable" says a lot about where you're coming from. You don't have to be paid by an organisation in order to be accountable for your actions. Ultimately its up to individuals to decide if they want to support their team and help them, or create a nasty atmosphere that saps morale because they have an agenda against the manager. Those fans are responsible for their actions, and they should be held accountable. And frankly, I hope other fans start holding them to account. 

Edited February 17 by The Bunny

[nu_matik 167]

5 hours ago, The Bunny said:

You have a strange idea of a football manager's job if you think clubs employ them to "deliver the best possible customer experience". Wagner isn't manager of McDonalds; his job is solely to get results. Typically one follows the other of course, but apparently not always. As evidenced by the fact that we've won 5 out of the last 7, and yet a vocal minority (including yourself) are apparently livid (dare I suggest, even more so than if we were losing). 

The suggestion "ultimately the fans don't have any responsibility, aren't accountable" says a lot about where you're coming from. You don't have to be paid by an organisation in order to be accountable for your actions. Ultimately its up to individuals to decide if they want to support their team and help them, or create a nasty atmosphere that saps morale because they have an agenda against the manager. Those fans are responsible for their actions, and they should be held accountable. And frankly, I hope other fans start holding them to account. 

Others fans have started to hold them accountable. Our fans en masse are generally fed up of the incessant moaning and negativity which often  crops up when are doing well mote broadly.

Now other teams fans are picking up on it too. Several sports pages where games are reported across the league show that other fans feedback on us is that we boo our manager at times that feels totally counterintuitive.

 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,276]

7 hours ago, hogesar said:

His issue is with protecting the players who I can promise you, are still hugely confused and lacking understanding of our fans attitude right now.

Come on, no you can’t!

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,276]

There’s some massive over reaction and analysis in here.

The subs were boo’d because fans were raw from seeing more or less the same subs being responsible a couple of days earlier for throwing 2 points away. A fact the majority, including journalists and pundits, agreed on. 

Against Watford, in the end, Wagners subs worked. You have to accept that, since we scored and won the game. 

The issue is Wagner has so little credit in the bank.. he’s only got one, maybe 2 poor performances before it turns again.

There’s unrepairable damage between the fans and Wagner, which only a small percentage is the fault of Wagner. The rest is on the club through the miss management of relegation, Dean Smith and Stuart Webber. That’s  truth of it, rightly or wrongly. Wagner is on a hiding to nothing…. But still, he’s had a history of poor in game decisions and a streaky form record. 

[BroadstairsR 2,173]

It was caused by a growing frustration within the fan-base.

The club seems to have fallen in both standards and ambition so very rapidly before their very eyes.

From masters of the Championship and PL hopefuls to mid-table Chumps mediocrity in record time takes some swallowing.

The fans, PinkUn posters, twitterers etc. find it difficult to accept and are kicking out in all directions it seems. Smithy and fag ash seem to be at a low point in fan support, whilst Wagner has failed to convince from almost day one.  

US dosh and a clear-out by Knapper seem necessary and on the cards, hopefully.

Edited February 17 by BroadstairsR

[......and Smith must score. 1,343]

7 hours ago, hogesar said:

His issue is with protecting the players who I can promise you, are still hugely confused and lacking understanding of our fans attitude right now.

The players aren’t fans in the way spectators are, they’re paid employees.

After the dross of the last few seasons on and off the pitch they must realise it’s not all just about winning ?

[Sufyellow 222]

6 hours ago, The Bunny said:

You have a strange idea of a football manager's job if you think clubs employ them to "deliver the best possible customer experience". Wagner isn't manager of McDonalds; his job is solely to get results. Typically one follows the other of course, but apparently not always. As evidenced by the fact that we've won 5 out of the last 7, and yet a vocal minority (including yourself) are apparently livid (dare I suggest, even more so than if we were losing). 

The suggestion "ultimately the fans don't have any responsibility, aren't accountable" says a lot about where you're coming from. You don't have to be paid by an organisation in order to be accountable for your actions. Ultimately its up to individuals to decide if they want to support their team and help them, or create a nasty atmosphere that saps morale because they have an agenda against the manager. Those fans are responsible for their actions, and they should be held accountable. And frankly, I hope other fans start holding them to account. 

Nearly all the fans who booed wouldn't have had an agenda against the manager,  why do you think that? Why be so over the top? We have a problem that the way we play and set up , would get us destroyed every week in the Premiership,  with the last memory still fresh, I look at games and think , well we concede there if in the prem. The problem is I can except staying in the championship for a couple of years to build a style and team to give the prem ago. The style and team are miles away from it. I guess we need a few more average years, and to forget how bad we were in the prem. One thing you don't do is tell fans to stay away . 

[hogesar 9,676]

1 hour ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Come on, no you can’t!

OK I can for at least 3 of the first team squad.

[yellowrider120 763]

45 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

Nearly all the fans who booed wouldn't have had an agenda against the manager,  why do you think that? Why be so over the top? We have a problem that the way we play and set up , would get us destroyed every week in the Premiership,  with the last memory still fresh, I look at games and think , well we concede there if in the prem. The problem is I can except staying in the championship for a couple of years to build a style and team to give the prem ago. The style and team are miles away from it. I guess we need a few more average years, and to forget how bad we were in the prem. One thing you don't do is tell fans to stay away . 

Correct! Wagner has raised the stakes and pretty much followed the stance set by the current owner at the AGM.

[Corbs1 89]

I agreed with Delia’s comments and Wagners recently, some fans think they can say whatever they like and they are beyond criticism themselves. Whether in a PR sense both comments were well judged is a different call. For me it is unarguably true that we ‘don’t have a clue’. Unless you have run or coached a professional football club you just wouldn’t understand. 

[Petriix 2,838]

8 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Wagner isn't manager of McDonalds; his job is solely to get results.

No, he also has a degree of responsibility to represent the public face of the club. If he had any aspirations of long-term success here then he needed to build bridges, not burn them. I've seen managers turn on fans before and it never works out well. 

You have to accept the context: Dean Smith was sacked when we were 5th because it was thought that the club should be performing better - didn’t we have the highest wage bill in the Championship? Our prior campaign at this level was (statistically) the clubs best ever season. 

Wagner has ultimately taken the club into a sharp decline followed by an equivalent recovery to end up basically where he started; which was (and is) below where everyone thought the club should be. Cherry-picking the recent results then acting confused as to why there's still discontent is just silly. It's all about the context. Overall Wagner has underperformed. 

Pretending that fans' frustrations are just 'a vocal minority' of morons, mindlessly creating a negative atmosphere is ridiculous. Yes, some of them are idiots who boo successful passages of passing because they don't understand what they are watching. But many have genuine concerns about repeating patterns of poor play due to apparent tactical deficiencies. 

Proving people wrong on the pitch is brilliant. The most frustrating thing is that Wagner's system actually works well for increasing periods of games but is regularly undermined by some strange decisions. I want him to succeed. So do most people. But you can't ignore the overall context of just how far the quality of football has declined. 

[Sufyellow 222]

37 minutes ago, Corbs1 said:

I agreed with Delia’s comments and Wagners recently, some fans think they can say whatever they like and they are beyond criticism themselves. Whether in a PR sense both comments were well judged is a different call. For me it is unarguably true that we ‘don’t have a clue’. Unless you have run or coached a professional football club you just wouldn’t understand. 

Nothing wrong with having a go back, that's life. Old sporting director,  if you don't like what we are doing support someone else. Owners 20% come to moan, would be better to stay away. Manger , if you are going to boo stay away , that was probably 30 % at least of the crowd.  Just think if we all took them up on it, say 15,000 left. Do you think the players want to play in front of 26 thousand even if some aren't happy with how the club has been run, or come out to 15 thousand? There's having a go back,  and saying stupid things that make it worse , all needed to remember who pays them at the end. 

[The Bunny 309]

2 minutes ago, Petriix said:

No, he also has a degree of responsibility to represent the public face of the club. If he had any aspirations of long-term success here then he needed to build bridges, not burn them. I've seen managers turn on fans before and it never works out well. 

You have to accept the context: Dean Smith was sacked when we were 5th because it was thought that the club should be performing better - didn’t we have the highest wage bill in the Championship? Our prior campaign at this level was (statistically) the clubs best ever season. 

Wagner has ultimately taken the club into a sharp decline followed by an equivalent recovery to end up basically where he started; which was (and is) below where everyone thought the club should be. Cherry-picking the recent results then acting confused as to why there's still discontent is just silly. It's all about the context. Overall Wagner has underperformed. 

Pretending that fans' frustrations are just 'a vocal minority' of morons, mindlessly creating a negative atmosphere is ridiculous. Yes, some of them are idiots who boo successful passages of passing because they don't understand what they are watching. But many have genuine concerns about repeating patterns of poor play due to apparent tactical deficiencies. 

Proving people wrong on the pitch is brilliant. The most frustrating thing is that Wagner's system actually works well for increasing periods of games but is regularly undermined by some strange decisions. I want him to succeed. So do most people. But you can't ignore the overall context of just how far the quality of football has declined. 

Obviously we're not where we were a few seasons ago, but any fan who watched us in L1 knows that football has peaks and troughs, and expecting the team to walk the Championship every season is unrealistic. I said back in the summer of 21 (when we lost our two best players) that I'd be surprised if we got promoted the following season. As predicted, we ended up mid table. These events happened long before Wagner joined the club. 

But as you suggest, the current trajectory is in the right direction. So why not let it play out and see where we end up, instead of moaning at every decision the manager makes based on insufficient information. Because this constant negative atmosphere is very likely part of the reason the team are playing badly at times, and a bit of positivity could actually help them. 

[The Bunny 309]

3 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Come on, no you can’t!

Southwell wrote that the booing at the last game led to "bemusement" amongst the players. I'm guessing there was a source involved there. And it's hardly surprising they'd be bemused after winning 4-2 and getting that kind of reaction.  

[Sufyellow 222]

5 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Obviously we're not where we were a few seasons ago, but any fan who watched us in L1 knows that football has peaks and troughs, and expecting the team to walk the Championship every season is unrealistic. I said back in the summer of 21 (when we lost our two best players) that I'd be surprised if we got promoted the following season. As predicted, we ended up mid table. These events happened long before Wagner joined the club. 

But as you suggest, the current trajectory is in the right direction. So why not let it play out and see where we end up, instead of moaning at every decision the manager makes based on insufficient information. Because this constant negative atmosphere is very likely part of the reason the team are playing badly at times, and a bit of positivity could actually help them. 

The last five years have brought us to this, while the last five years still feel like yesterday we will struggle to move on. We had a SD who told us we were basically bottom half prem and he would get the weapons, unfortunately some fans believed it. All the time we were still run like a mid championship club. 

[Sufyellow 222]

3 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Southwell wrote that the booing at the last game led to "bemusement" amongst the players. I'm guessing there was a source involved there. And it's hardly surprising they'd be bemused after winning 4-2 and getting that kind of reaction.  

Didn't Wagner say that? 

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Have we had the dramatic reveal of “Sargent is ok” yet where we all pretend he was injured the other night and not part of Wagners tombola substitution strategy? 

[Sufyellow 222]

4 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Southwell wrote that the booing at the last game led to "bemusement" amongst the players. I'm guessing there was a source involved there. And it's hardly surprising they'd be bemused after winning 4-2 and getting that kind of reaction.  

They weren't winning 4, 2 at the time. They celebrated with the barclay at the end , I am sure half of those probably booed the substitution 

[The Bunny 309]

1 minute ago, Sufyellow said:

They weren't winning 4, 2 at the time. 

True, but we were still winning when they booed.

Quote

Didn't Wagner say that? 

He also said it. It's not clear who Connor's source was, but I'm sure there was some substance behind that comment

[Sufyellow 222]

4 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

True, but we were still winning when they booed.

He also said it. It's not clear who Connor's source was, but I'm sure there was some substance behind that comment

They also went on to equalise , it then meant we had to come out and be more positive again and they smelt blood, luckily they left themselves wide open for the third, well taken though. I can think of loads of reasons for the boos in general for lots of reasons. 

[shefcanary 2,409]

15 hours ago, Petriix said:

An excellent 60 minutes out of 90

I actually think the frustration was it was only "good" for the first 30, and last 15. So half the match. Your 60 is far too generous. And not "excellent" as Watford were truly awful.

[The Bunny 309]

53 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

I actually think the frustration was it was only "good" for the first 30, and last 15. So half the match. Your 60 is far too generous. And not "excellent" as Watford were truly awful.

Yeah, you’re right. Actually if you think about it, our 4 goals only took about 12 seconds in total. The other 94 minutes and 48 seconds had an atrocious goal return. Wagner out!

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Looks like Sargent has made the cut

WHAT ARE THE ODDS! WOW! WHAT A SURPRISE!

[Petriix 2,838]

2 hours ago, The Bunny said:

But as you suggest, the current trajectory is in the right direction. So why not let it play out and see where we end up, instead of moaning at every decision the manager makes based on insufficient information. Because this constant negative atmosphere is very likely part of the reason the team are playing badly at times, and a bit of positivity could actually help them. 

Have you been to any home games this season? Believe it or not people do try to create an atmosphere but there's a real malaise over the place. It's very difficult to 'get behind the team' as an individual. All one can do is either join in with the crowd or not. Unfortunately on Tuesday that was a collective grumble. Today we'll wait and see, but the fans need something to be positive about before they can be positive. 

Wish me luck trying to start the "you do know what you're doing" chant in the river end. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,726]

 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,276]

2 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Southwell wrote that the booing at the last game led to "bemusement" amongst the players. I'm guessing there was a source involved there. And it's hardly surprising they'd be bemused after winning 4-2 and getting that kind of reaction.  

I’m sure they can work out the reason why, rather than remaining bemused.

And there wasn’t any booing at 4-2. That’s disinformation to suit an agenda.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

2 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

I’m sure they can work out the reason why, rather than remaining bemused.

And there wasn’t any booing at 4-2. That’s disinformation to suit an agenda.

No, but there WAS booing when we were winning 2-1. Go figure.