Josh Sargent injured and a "late call" if he makes the match

[Fuzzar 1,702]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Anyone interested, I just noticed that the full 90 is up on club site for the match, second half gets going around 54:15.  Gonna watch back that opening 10 mins, and have another look at Sainz's lob.

https://www.canaries.co.uk/content/full-90-norwich-city-vs-watford

You'll see that slapstick is still alive and kicking - comedy gold. 

[Google Bot 3,278]

4 minutes ago, Conrad said:

Perhaps we would have also won if SvH had replaced Sargent?

And perhaps we would've beaten Liverpool if Tzolis didn't take that pen?  Throwing new players into big matches can go either way.

Personally I felt the changes allowed us to gain more control and released Sara into attacking roles, scored 4 goals AND allowed SvH game-time.  That's great isn't it?

[Conrad 170]

6 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

And perhaps we would've beaten Liverpool if Tzolis didn't take that pen?  Throwing new players into big matches can go either way.

Personally I felt the changes allowed us to gain more control and released Sara into attacking roles, scored 4 goals AND allowed SvH game-time.  That's great isn't it?

As I said, we may have had a similar result if SvH had replaced Sargent, but nobody knows. It would also have had the additional advantage of providing SvH with more game time. If Barnes is played as the lone forward from the start on Saturday, God help us. 

[Norfolk Dan 308]

5 hours ago, Scrivvy said:

Not if SVH makes his first start and becomes an instant cult hero with a hat-trick

The last time that happened it hardly turned into that...... Idah. 

[The Bunny 309]

5 hours ago, Petriix said:

It's clear that no one in the stands knew that Sargent was injured and there was nothing to suggest he was until he went straight down the tunnel. People got the wrong end of the stick. On mass. It's understandable that they were frustrated at that point.

It's more worrying that Wagner couldn't understand the frustration. The loss away at Watford sticks in the memory and it appeared to be repeating in front of our eyes. "Do something to get a grip on this game... No, FFS, don't take our best attacker off."

He should get it. So should you. 

Wagner's whole point was that the fans had no idea what the situation was but booed anyway. Your post doesn't contest that, and yet somehow you manage to go from that to blaming Wagner for not understanding the fans' frustration. That is some seriously twisted logic. 

And the implication seems to be that because the fans booed "on mass", it was somehow justified, even though, as you admit, they "got the wrong end of the stick". There are lots of examples in history of people doing stupid things en mass (including in this country's recent history), but it doesn't make it any less stupid. 

[Bali Canary 11]

11 hours ago, shefcanary said:

They were booing because Sarge had said at half time he was injured but Wagner insisted on keeping him on! 

Possibly. 

Or not.

Who knows.

We only have Wagner's words ...

 

What a strange thing to say. Which of the cretins was allowed into the dressing room at half time?

[Nik Vawn 129]

10 hours ago, Conrad said:

All the more reason to have replaced him with SvH then, to provide an opportunity to improve his match sharpness. 

Not necessarily 

[Conrad 170]

2 hours ago, Nik Vawn said:

Not necessarily 

We will never know.

[Google Bot 3,278]

26 minutes ago, Conrad said:

We will never know.

I don't get the reasoning to use it to undermine what we do know, though?

I appreciate that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but surely it's better applied where the outcome had been less than desirable? 

We all want SvH to walk into the team and bag a load but there's got to be some trust in the coaching team to decide on what's best for players fitness and readiness.

I know some want to isolate Wagner and paint him as some kind of clueless fool (Not aiming that at you btw), but it's a collective who come together to agree on these decisions. I can guarantee that SvH's introduction is a plan in motion, as is Sarge's return to full gametime.

I appreciate that not everyone likes that rigid systematic approach, but that's just how it is with this current setup.

[horsefly 4,301]

17 hours ago, Petriix said:

I can't be the only one who thought Onel was having an absolute mare in the second half because Lewis had pushed forwards leaving Stacey with 2 on 1 and Hernandez was just hanging out on the halfway line marking no one. His substitution was tactical and correct.

Taking Sargent off seemed strange to me because there was no indication of injury; if he'd gone down and required treatment or even limped on his way off the pitch then it would have avoided the whole debacle. 

I think you probably are the only one. Onel was substituted in the 55th minute; how does 10 minutes play constitute "having a mare" in the second half? And it has been reported that he was indeed injured. And the idea that a player has to go down injured just to avoid the crowd booing his substitution is frankly silly. I'd rather the club continue to treat the crowd like grown ups than engage in playacting to appease the childishness of certain elements at CR.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

16 hours ago, Addick/Canary said:

Instruction to all fans attending Saturday's match against Cardiff City:

Please Boo when the players enter the field, as this will galvanise them to perform better. Petriix

I'm sorry, but this is an example of small scale and unambitious thinking. Since it has now been scientifically proven that booing helps the team it is incumbent on our loyal fans to BOO CONSTANTLY throughout the whole game. The louder and more vitriolic the boos the better!! Also we need a special squad of highly trained boo boys to meet the team coach outside the ground and rain boos and insults down on the players as they enter the ground.

Promotion will be guaranteed!!

[daly 504]

17 hours ago, daz said:

Because wags loves playing him so far 😂 

Thought that read Wives and Girlfriends love playing with him so far

[Nik Vawn 129]

1 hour ago, Conrad said:

We will never know.

We know we won 4-2 end of story really

[Conrad 170]

57 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I don't get the reasoning to use it to undermine what we do know, though?

I appreciate that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but surely it's better applied where the outcome had been less than desirable? 

We all want SvH to walk into the team and bag a load but there's got to be some trust in the coaching team to decide on what's best for players fitness and readiness.

I know some want to isolate Wagner and paint him as some kind of clueless fool (Not aiming that at you btw), but it's a collective who come together to agree on these decisions. I can guarantee that SvH's introduction is a plan in motion, as is Sarge's return to full gametime.

I appreciate that not everyone likes that rigid systematic approach, but that's just how it is with this current setup.

Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing and that is one of the reasons that it makes it harder to justify bringing SvH on to replace Sargent.

My logic is simple. We know that Sargent is coming back from injury. We know that his return needs managing. What I think, and evidenced by performances earlier this season, is that without Sargent we struggle.

Ideally it would have been beneficial, but probably not realistic, to have signed a ready made replacement in January. We didn't. Instead we signed SvH who, according to Wagner is not ready.

My question is he will be ever be ready? A few minutes here and there towards the end of a game will never be enough. Against Watford there was the opportunity to give him more game time. Now that it has been announced that Sargent is injured again that leaves us, potentially, with only Barnes. Limited goalscoring threat there, unfortunately.

I would have liked to see a Barnes/SvH given some time against Watford to see it could work.

Of course SvH may prove to be another Idah ( we don't know currently due to lack of game time). In which case I may prove to be stupid in my hopes.

[Conrad 170]

1 minute ago, Nik Vawn said:

We know we won 4-2 end of story really

No we dont. We may also have won if SvH had replaced Sargent. Your response only comes with the benefit of hindsight. I'm glad we won though.

[shefcanary 2,409]

17 hours ago, Addick/Canary said:

Instructions to all players being substituted:

Please avoid any adverse reaction from our fans by LIMPING OFF THE PITCH, even if you are not injured. DW

Or at least instruct the player to collapse with injury to the floor as the sub is about to be made. All the big clubs instruct their players to do it - it wastes a bit of time, even under the new time directive, why don't we? 

[shefcanary 2,409]

15 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

FFS. Disconnect because of lack of communication but you suggest they're lying anyway. Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't. What the hell is the point of anyone in the club saying anything with this sort of neurotic attitude?

Lighten up - it's a joke - I just ran out of emoji's. Stop trying to criticise everyone with a diametrically opposite view, and think a little before touching your keyboard. 

[Google Bot 3,278]

15 minutes ago, Conrad said:

My question is he will be ever be ready?

Well that is the biggest concern isn't it.  There seems to be a very long run-in process for players to come into the team, you only have to look at Sainz as an example of that.   But equally he's now a player who is up and down the pitch fighting.

I don't know how much of that is just his natural tenacity, or the coaching at the club.  Wagner came out and said he didn't like to track back and win balls, and so it's great to see his response in moments such as celebrating the throw in a few weeks back.

I think the general point i'm making is that we need to put some trust in the process, and the team in place (Not just Wagner) and not seek to undermine it because we are more impatient as fans.  I'm no different to you, and would've replaced like for like as i'm desperate to see minutes into SvH.

But we're somewhat lucky in that all that matters to us is the remaining minutes in the game, we haven't go to be concerned with training sessions, recoveries, travel, who's carrying what injury, sticking to agreed plans and schedules to maximise tactical sessions etc. and all these such things.

Edited February 16 by Google Bot

[shefcanary 2,409]

18 hours ago, Petriix said:

That kind of hyperbole isn't constructive. People have entirely reasonable concerns with some of Wagner's team selections and substitutions because they're able to clearly observe some systemic flaws repeatedly appear on the pitch as a result.

On Tuesday we went from a coherent structure to a total shambles for a significant portion of the game. I actually think the booing and conceding the second goal galvanised the team into performing better.

I said all this in a speculative manner on another of the highly charged threads a couple of days ago, no-one seemed to agree, but I think there is a strong argument to this. After the subs not a lot changed to start with but as the players let the booing sink in you can see a situation where some of the players had a word with their teammates about it (especially after Asprilla's thunderbolt) and used that to suddenly (and it was a sharp change in attitude) start playing on the front foot again.

[shefcanary 2,409]

7 hours ago, Bali Canary said:

What a strange thing to say. Which of the cretins was allowed into the dressing room at half time?

IT WAS A JOKE! Surely you can see how the post was structured it was just a light hearted comment.

However the fact that people responded in the manner they have I'd now say there was probably some truth in it! A pile on is a pile on to hide the truth isn't it? 😉 

[daniel_grieff 16]

7 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I don't know how much of that is just his natural tenacity, or the coaching at the club.  Wagner came out and said he didn't like to track back and win balls, and so it's great to see his response in moments such as celebrating the throw in a few weeks back.

 

Sainz arrived with something of a reputation for being that kind of player. I think it was on the pinkun that they got an expert on Turkish football to talk about him.

I do agree with you, there does need to be more trust in decisions and processes, but it's hard to buy into it when we've seen just how bad things have been this season. It wasn't that long ago that we had relegation form and one of the worst results in the club's history, it might take a bit longer to get everybody on board.

[Google Bot 3,278]

1 minute ago, daniel_grieff said:

I do agree with you, there does need to be more trust in decisions and processes, but it's hard to buy into it when we've seen just how bad things have been this season

We were very injury hit though, and it's clearly those scars which worry the coaching team today.  The fact that we've struck this balance of precaution and gaining results, on paper, should be celebrated and not scorned at in my opinion.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Lighten up - it's a joke - I just ran out of emoji's. Stop trying to criticise everyone with a diametrically opposite view, and think a little before touching your keyboard. 

'A joke'. Right. Sorry, my sense of humour just doesn't quite stretch to seeing the funny side of implying people are liars.

Edited February 16 by littleyellowbirdie

[shefcanary 2,409]

46 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

'A joke'. Right. Sorry, my sense of humour just doesn't quite stretch to seeing the funny side of implying people are liars.

I wasn't saying he was a liar, just that we only ever hear one side of any story emerging and that is their "truth". There are many things that Wagner has said that do seem to stretch the truth a little. e.g.

"The pre-season training will ensure we are the fittest team in the championship" 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

4 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

I wasn't saying he was a liar, just that we only ever hear one side of any story emerging and that is their "truth". There are many things that Wagner has said that do seem to stretch the truth a little. e.g.

"The pre-season training will ensure we are the fittest team in the championship" 

Trouble is I think the emphasis on fitness has become a norm in football; I'm dubious it's possible to get much of an edge that way any more.

[Petriix 2,838]

15 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Wagner's whole point was that the fans had no idea what the situation was but booed anyway. Your post doesn't contest that, and yet somehow you manage to go from that to blaming Wagner for not understanding the fans' frustration. That is some seriously twisted logic. 

Not at all. The substitutions were fairly typical of the sort of tactical decisions that Wagner regularly makes. Previously it was Rowe being subbed like clockwork on 60 minutes despite being our best attacking threat. It's entirely reasonable for people to have assumed it was more of the same, especially after the previous game. 

And, yes, Wagner absolutely is to blame for making such a faux pas because he's employed by the club in a professional capacity while the fans are the customers who ultimately pay his wages. Imagine how it would look if you came out and publicly slated your customers for giving your product a bad review.

I'd have thought the primary purpose of your job is to deliver the best possible customer experience so as to maximise revenue; if people criticised your work because the end product was poor then it probably wouldn't go down too well if you published a video telling them that they should simply not buy your product. That's effectively what Wagner has done.

Ultimately the fans don't have any responsibility, aren't accountable and don't have any real input to the way the club is managed. All they can do is provide immediate feedback on what they see on the pitch. People genuinely were trying to create an atmosphere but the game went totally flat because of the poor performance for a prolonged period. 

Given the context of the match, our previous defeat against Watford having been 2-0 up and the QPR draw it doesn't take much emotional intelligence to understand that the fans might have been frustrated. As a professional, Wagner should take it on the chin. Not because the fans were right, but because he's digging himself into a hole from which he's unlikely to be able to escape. 

Managers simply don't come back from this kind of outburst. That's on him. I can't see him surviving beyond the summer regardless of how the season ends. And that's a shame because he has actually done a half decent job of improving things since Webber left. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

 

I'd have thought the primary purpose of your job is to deliver the best possible customer experience so as to maximise revenue; if people criticised your work because the end product was poor then it probably wouldn't go down too well if you published a video telling them that they should simply not buy your product. That's effectively what Wagner has done.

Ultimately the fans don't have any responsibility, aren't accountable and don't have any real input to the way the club is managed. All they can do is provide immediate feedback on what they see on the pitch. People genuinely were trying to create an atmosphere but the game went totally flat because of the poor performance for a prolonged period. 

Given the context of the match, our previous defeat against Watford having been 2-0 up and the QPR draw it doesn't take much emotional intelligence to understand that the fans might have been frustrated. As a professional, Wagner should take it on the chin. Not because the fans were right, but because he's digging himself into a hole from which he's unlikely to be able to escape. 

 

Good grief!

The "end product" wasn't poor - we won 4-2!!

And did the Carrow Road boo boys (and girls) really have such short memories that they'd forgotten Wagner's substitutions having a positive and match winning effect in the very previous home game???

[Petriix 2,838]

2 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

The "end product" wasn't poor - we won 4-2!!

At the point of the game where the booing occurred the team were struggling to string two passes together and were in the process of letting a two goal lead slip. It's clear that Wagner doesn't have much 'credit in the bank' with many fans because of his overall record at the club and particularly the two long runs of bad form that left many thinking more about relegation than promotion.

Yes, it came good. The tactical switch was correct. An excellent 60 minutes out of 90. More 'patterns of play' than 'moments of brilliance'. Everything people have been asking for. But that period in the middle was everything people have been (rightly) complaining about: huge holes in the midfield, isolated attackers, poor positioning, losing individual battles. 

Here's the crunch: the booing runs much deeper than a brief misunderstanding about an injured player. There's a deep frustration amongst fans because the club has effectively self-immolated from a period of playing the best brand of football seen in my time as a supporter to paying some staggeringly high wages to a very average, ageing squad playing questionable tactics. It isn't going to take much for things to boil over. The manager escalating things only serves to make matters worse. Boo indeed! 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

At the point of the game where the booing occurred the team were struggling to string two passes together and were in the process of letting a two goal lead slip. It's clear that Wagner doesn't have much 'credit in the bank' with many fans because of his overall record at the club and particularly the two long runs of bad form that left many thinking more about relegation than promotion.

Yes, it came good. The tactical switch was correct. An excellent 60 minutes out of 90. More 'patterns of play' than 'moments of brilliance'. Everything people have been asking for. But that period in the middle was everything people have been (rightly) complaining about: huge holes in the midfield, isolated attackers, poor positioning, losing individual battles. 

Here's the crunch: the booing runs much deeper than a brief misunderstanding about an injured player. There's a deep frustration amongst fans because the club has effectively self-immolated from a period of playing the best brand of football seen in my time as a supporter to paying some staggeringly high wages to a very average, ageing squad playing questionable tactics. It isn't going to take much for things to boil over. The manager escalating things only serves to make matters worse. Boo indeed! 

You're basically making my point for me - so thank you!

Since time immemorial almost every team in the history of football has had a period during a game where they have been on the back foot. It's rare indeed for one team to dominate a game for the entire 90 minutes. Booing substitutions which you've admitted yourself actually worked - 55 minutes into a game which we were leading 2-1 is just brain dead - it is in no way going to alleviate any of the issues which you've mentioned in your last paragraph.

And you haven't even bothered to engage with me pointing out that Wagner's substitutions in the very previous home game turned the match around in our favour. 

But perhaps you're right - it was very inflammatory of Wagner to 'make matters worse' by making game changing, game winning substitutions. 

 

 

 

[Google Bot 3,278]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

At the point of the game where the booing occurred the team were struggling to string two passes together and were in the process of letting a two goal lead slip.

That supports making a change to solid things up, which he did.  If he didn't do anything and we went behind people would be at his throats post game saying that he doesn't react. 

So either way, how does he win with the doubters?

This is entirely about trust and he feels he's done enough to earn ours, was the general point made after the game.

Edited February 16 by Google Bot