Italian fans letting us all down

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

10 minutes ago, mrD66M said:

There is a lot to be said in this perennial discussion. 

 

1st things 1st - stop looking for simple solutions. THERE IS NO SIMPLE SOLUTION to immigration. write it down. There never was, and there never will be. You written it down yet?

2nd - There is a massive confluence of factors which got us to this point. Globalist economics (more growth, more consumption, ad infinitum). Ageing populations in Europe, booming demographics in Africa / Asia, climate change, wars, the anti-colonial/anti-western feeling in countries like India, Brazil etc, and a "longing for the great Empire days" in others (UK, US, Moskovia)

3rd - one thing that crops up time and time again, especially when talking with older people, is the pace of social change, it's next to humanly impossible to adapt or keep up (even for those of us that are more receptive to the idea of change, all depending on how it's implemented - gradual change IMO is much better than radical change)

4th - this needs repeating - the profound, sheer hypocrisy of nations who used to be great colonial powers, who pillaged, raped and enslaved half the world for centuries, and continuously instigate wars in those parts of the world with a view to scavenge and profit off the remains.. what gall, to then say "we don't want migrants here" when your nation brought them there as slaves in the 1st place.

 

Probably much more could be said but these are my main points.

Gotta question that bit in bold italics a bit - I see what you're trying to say and don't completely disagree, but it's worth pointing out that birth rates are now below replacement rates of 2.1 in half the world's countries now, including India and it's been well below that in China for years (one-child policy, for example before it was repealed). Sub-Saharan Africa is the problem child in this regard, literally.

The likes of South Korea and Thailand have had rapid drops and even though Iran has turned into a completely theocratic hellhole that subjugated women's rights severely, birth rates there are still a good chunk below replacement too. When women get reproductive freedom, they're pretty good at keeping hold of it, so this for me makes a compelling argument for increasing foreign aid into women's education in sub-Saharan Africa.

Even then, it is thankfully slowing down there (6.7 sprogs per woman in the mid 1970s across all of Africa, it is just over 4 now), just not at the same pace as elsewhere.

Edited January 21 by TheGunnShow

[TIL 1010 4,750]

Just side tracking this a bit i noticed yesterday that during the taking of the knee we had four players not take part.

[Fen Canary 829]

7 hours ago, Well b back said:

Funnily enough, lots of EU citizens went home and left the NHS and care sector in a total mess. Funnily again the British didn’t want the jobs of looking after the elderly and clearing up after them on a minimum wage. So funnily enough we had to turn to Asia, the Africa’s and the Americas to fill the vacancies. To subsidise this and pay for the British workers, funnily enough the £350 million a week promised was just made up.

What would you suggest ? Cancel all migration and completely destroy the NHS and care sector.

Those EU citizens were free to remain in the country if they wished, but they chose to leave. Are you suggesting the government should have kept them here against their will? Your post does imply that you want to keep these people as they’re a source of cheap labour however, you’d rather import workers than poorer countries than see wages rise in order to attract domestic staff.

Your claims about a mass exodus from the NHS also don’t stand up to scrutiny. In 2017 EU staff made up 5.6% of the NHS workforce, and in 2023 this sat around 5.2%, however this fall is largely due to the increase in Asian and African staff (Asian 4%-8.6%, African 1.8%-3.8%). In terms of sheer numbers the number of EU nationals employed in the NHS was 59k in 2016, whereas today it’s 74k  (while some of this increase is likely due to better records being kept on a persons nationality, the report also states it’s likely the numbers have increased over that time period)

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7783/

[Foxy2600 301]

Well Infantino can only agree, except ignoring Saudi, Qatari and AFCON instances which make it a load of B@llocks

[duke63 542]

11 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

And yet this fascism could be stopped tomorrow if various governments would only listen to the electorate and implement proper immigration policies. You can’t spend decades ignoring the opinions of voters then complain when they look elsewhere.

Anybody caught racially abusing players should be banned, although Italy has much bigger problems on that front 

Define 'implement proper immigration policies'. 

Most nations already have a robust immigration policy but when you have thousands fleeing their own country or just leaving it as they see no future there, then the world has a serious problem. Maybe we should not go bombing these countries and destroying their infrastructure.

Western nation generally have falling birth rates and ageing populations. The only way to keep the economy turning is either to increase birth rates which obviously takes 20 years to have any effect, or allow staff who want to work to come from other countries. Right wing politicians with an anti immigration stance see it as a way to power, but just like Brexit it ultimately costs the Country big time and those who suffer most are the ordinary population.

The only way to prevent immigration is to assist the countries they leave to build an economy and way of life such they don't want to leave it. But I guarantee you if we did not allow immigration of those who wa t to work, then our economy would collapse very quickly.

[Fen Canary 829]

13 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Define 'implement proper immigration policies'. 

Most nations already have a robust immigration policy but when you have thousands fleeing their own country or just leaving it as they see no future there, then the world has a serious problem. Maybe we should not go bombing these countries and destroying their infrastructure.

Western nation generally have falling birth rates and ageing populations. The only way to keep the economy turning is either to increase birth rates which obviously takes 20 years to have any effect, or allow staff who want to work to come from other countries. Right wing politicians with an anti immigration stance see it as a way to power, but just like Brexit it ultimately costs the Country big time and those who suffer most are the ordinary population.

The only way to prevent immigration is to assist the countries they leave to build an economy and way of life such they don't want to leave it. But I guarantee you if we did not allow immigration of those who wa t to work, then our economy would collapse very quickly.

I define a proper immigration policy as one that only lets in migrants who are highly skilled or have skills the country is short of, and with a rough cap on the number allowed in annually so as not to cause pressure and excess demand on housing and public services. Indian bar staff, Polish courier drivers and Lithuanian baristas don’t really qualify in that regard in my opinion.

You're correct that falling birth rates means immigration is needed, however the UKs population has risen by 8 million in the last 20 years despite those birth rates being below replacement level, which to me is a rise that’s much too fast to allow the time for the infrastructure to be built to account all these newcomers. As I mentioned on another thread, those from countries that joined the EU after 2003 earned on 25% below the median wage on average in the UK. Who benefits from this except those who rely on cheap labour? When GDP per head is lower today than it was 15 years ago surely this massive influx hasn’t been the economic success story that many portray it as 

[duke63 542]

45 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I define a proper immigration policy as one that only lets in migrants who are highly skilled or have skills the country is short of, and with a rough cap on the number allowed in annually so as not to cause pressure and excess demand on housing and public services. Indian bar staff, Polish courier drivers and Lithuanian baristas don’t really qualify in that regard in my opinion.

You're correct that falling birth rates means immigration is needed, however the UKs population has risen by 8 million in the last 20 years despite those birth rates being below replacement level, which to me is a rise that’s much too fast to allow the time for the infrastructure to be built to account all these newcomers. As I mentioned on another thread, those from countries that joined the EU after 2003 earned on 25% below the median wage on average in the UK. Who benefits from this except those who rely on cheap labour? When GDP per head is lower today than it was 15 years ago surely this massive influx hasn’t been the economic success story that many portray it as 

So there will be very few courier drivers, bar or restaurant staff or coffee houses then. Our local pub/restaurant now closes at 9pm most week nights as they can’t get staff to do the job. 
Too many Brits have found the idle way of living by screwing the benefits system and so don’t want to work nor do they have the skills to work. 
I don’t get why people are so anti immigration, it’s usually to hide their dislike of ‘damn foreigners’. 
Britain is going backwards at an alarming rate with investment falling dramatically. It needs to be looking outwards and not inwards before the economy collapses. 

[Fen Canary 829]

23 minutes ago, duke63 said:

So there will be very few courier drivers, bar or restaurant staff or coffee houses then. Our local pub/restaurant now closes at 9pm most week nights as they can’t get staff to do the job. 
Too many Brits have found the idle way of living by screwing the benefits system and so don’t want to work nor do they have the skills to work. 
I don’t get why people are so anti immigration, it’s usually to hide their dislike of ‘damn foreigners’. 
Britain is going backwards at an alarming rate with investment falling dramatically. It needs to be looking outwards and not inwards before the economy collapses. 

If they can’t get the staff then they need to offer better wages until they can. If that means a few fail then so be it, we obviously have too many and their market share will be taken by somebody else who can afford the higher salaries. Why should the rest of society have to endure low wages and extra demand for public services simply so a poorly run cafe reliant on paying their staff a pittance can keep its door open? 

[Sufyellow 222]

19 hours ago, Newtopia said:

How about deducting 20 points from those clubs involved, that will hurt the fans, and make it clear It is more serious than financial fair play.  In terms of it punishing fans who weren’t involved, allow the punishment to be suspended if a club’s fans report more of their own fans for racist behaviour than those quantifiably involved in racist incidents. 

Crikey,  that's harsh,  me and a friend are off to Ipswich in the home section to get them a twenty points deduction. How about they get arrested and banned. 

[Sufyellow 222]

13 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

First, it wouldn't stop. Most of the people who died in Germany were German-born. Some people love to hate and if it's not immigrants they target, it will be transexuals or gays or blacks or 'communists' - it's as simple as that. And governments should not be pandering to all that is gross in human nature.

Second, if people want to drastically reduce immigration, then at least they should stop the hypocrisy of wanting immigrants to provide cheap labour in order to prop up their economy and look after the old people that they can't be bothered to provide for.

What people want cheap labour? Apart from the rich to make even more money. 

[The Raptor 1,211]

This stuff. And the goings on in the world generally prove that a small (but significant) number of humans are ****. We're just gonna end up wiping ourselves out aren't we!

It was good while it lasted!

[Mr.Carrow 376]

18 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

And in which of those countries you mentioned has a sensible immigration policy been enacted? Britain voted to leave the EU with immigration being a major factor and what happened? Immigration hit record highs. If Italy had managed to stop the vast numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the Med do you think Meloni’s party would have got a look in? Do you think Le Pen would be anywhere near power if Frances major parties had any control over who was entering the country? Likewise with Trump and Americas border with Mexico?

Why is it fascist to want the government to control who enters a nation? I’ve never truly understood the link to those particular regimes and a nations border controls 100 years later personally.

Milei is pretty much the opposite of Wilders being an open borders Liberal absolutist, yet both are lazily branded "fascists". I've always voted Left and agreed with much of Meloni's viral speech about us all being turned into atomised units of consumption. Many of the current shibboleths of "Left" orthodoxy are in many ways closer to Fascism than the centre Right (obsession with hierarchies based on immutable characteristics, anti-semitism etc). Unfortunately people love grandstanding their moral righteousness based on very little thought or accurate information (just our evolved desire to play status games and make sure we reap the rewards of conforming to the latest social conventions). Authoritarian/Liberal is a better paradigm for thinking about modern politics than Left/Right imo.

[Newtopia 517]

5 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

Crikey,  that's harsh,  me and a friend are off to Ipswich in the home section to get them a twenty points deduction. How about they get arrested and banned. 

It is tough, but racism is worse than some rich person wasting money.  I was just provoking conversation but it will take some real punishment to stop the behaviour 

[mrD66M 99]

On 21/01/2024 at 08:51, canarybubbles said:

Some people love to hate

In a nutshell..

 

On 21/01/2024 at 08:52, Fen Canary said:

And in which of those countries you mentioned has a sensible immigration policy been enacted?

I'm sure you can see these far right parties like to point at <scapegoat> and stir up hatred on their rhetoric - see, these are the kinds of people that turn up when democratic standards / accountability in governments fail.

They are not interested in being competent, accountable, compromising or working effectively with others; if they actually went towards solving the issue they would become redundant. It is more useful for them to keep their supporter base angry so their strategy is akin to a person whose only tool is a hammer and sees everything as a nail - or arsonists who burn down woods to buy land on the cheap.

Edited January 22 by mrD66M

[Fen Canary 829]

1 hour ago, mrD66M said:

In a nutshell..

 

I'm sure you can see these far right parties like to point at <scapegoat> and stir up hatred on their rhetoric - see, these are the kinds of people that turn up when democratic standards / accountability in governments fail.

They are not interested in being competent, compromising or working effectively with others; if they actually went towards solving the issue they would become redundant. It is more useful for them to keep their supporter base angry so their only strategy is akin to a person whose only tool is a hammer and sees everything as a nail - or arsonists who burn down woods to buy land on the cheap.

I’ve seen very little rhetoric aimed at immigrants themselves, even from those you’d deem to be far right. I’ve seen much anger directed at the national governments of those countries for failing to get a grip on immigration (both legal and illegal) but that in itself isn’t racist.

You don’t have to bigoted to believe that importing millions of people quickly into a country can put undue stress on society, and that millions of people who already live there will see their standard of living drop as a result. Being angry at the government is a perfectly legitimate opinion to hold if you’ve been adversely affected by their policies. 

[canarybubbles 1,923]

18 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I’ve seen very little rhetoric aimed at immigrants themselves, even from those you’d deem to be far right. I’ve seen much anger directed at the national governments of those countries for failing to get a grip on immigration (both legal and illegal) but that in itself isn’t racist.

You don’t have to bigoted to believe that importing millions of people quickly into a country can put undue stress on society, and that millions of people who already live there will see their standard of living drop as a result. Being angry at the government is a perfectly legitimate opinion to hold if you’ve been adversely affected by their policies. 

Of course having an opinion that there is too much immigration is not in itself necessarily racist. The new far-right, however, is very keen not to appear bigoted or motivated by hatred since they know many (most?) people are horrified by a politics that aims to repeat what happened in Europe about a century ago.

The Nazis were voted into power and then took away the right to vote them out. If you don't think the same thing can happen again - 'it can't happen here' - I think you're deluded. 

[canarybubbles 1,923]

3 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Milei is pretty much the opposite of Wilders being an open borders Liberal absolutist, yet both are lazily branded "fascists". I've always voted Left and agreed with much of Meloni's viral speech about us all being turned into atomised units of consumption. Many of the current shibboleths of "Left" orthodoxy are in many ways closer to Fascism than the centre Right (obsession with hierarchies based on immutable characteristics, anti-semitism etc). Unfortunately people love grandstanding their moral righteousness based on very little thought or accurate information (just our evolved desire to play status games and make sure we reap the rewards of conforming to the latest social conventions). Authoritarian/Liberal is a better paradigm for thinking about modern politics than Left/Right imo.

I agree that the old Left/Right distinction is probably outdated. But if the new paradigm is going to become Authoritarian/Liberal, I think we need to add a second element, economic and social, so we have four categories: EA/SL, EL/SA, EL/SL and EA/SA. The Thatcher government, for example, was largely economically liberal and socially authoritarian.

I also agree that the label of 'Fascist' is often lazily given to individuals or groups (and I am probably guilty of this at times), but the same is just as true of 'Marxist', for example.

None of this removes my fear, though, of what is happening currently to the world, with the rise of groups which would replace democracy, for all its problems, with brutal, centralised authoritarianism, and even eventually the knock on the door in the middle of the night and people 'disappearing'.

[Fen Canary 829]

33 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Of course having an opinion that there is too much immigration is not in itself necessarily racist. The new far-right, however, is very keen not to appear bigoted or motivated by hatred since they know many (most?) people are horrified by a politics that aims to repeat what happened in Europe about a century ago.

The Nazis were voted into power and then took away the right to vote them out. If you don't think the same thing can happen again - 'it can't happen here' - I think you're deluded. 

So you’re designating these parties as racist, despite them not having said anything or proposed any policies that are actually racist?

The Nazis were only ever voted in by around a third of the electorate, they were given much more power than their vote share deserves by establishment figures who thought the communists posed a bigger threat and the Nazis would be a safer bet

Edited January 22 by Fen Canary

[Herman 9,779]

23 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

So you’re designating these parties as racist, despite them not having said anything or proposed any policies that are actually racist?

The Nazis were only ever voted in by around a third of the electorate, they were given much more power than their vote share deserves by establishment figures who thought the communists posed a bigger threat and the Nazis would be a safer bet

Echoes of our recent past. Corbyn and his socialists very nearly come to power. The establishment ****s itself and rallies round to make sure this doesn't happen again. Johnson and his band of merry men get in with a massive majority clearing away any thoughts of a hard left government for a very long time. 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

42 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

I agree that the old Left/Right distinction is probably outdated. But if the new paradigm is going to become Authoritarian/Liberal, I think we need to add a second element, economic and social, so we have four categories: EA/SL, EL/SA, EL/SL and EA/SA. The Thatcher government, for example, was largely economically liberal and socially authoritarian.

I also agree that the label of 'Fascist' is often lazily given to individuals or groups (and I am probably guilty of this at times), but the same is just as true of 'Marxist', for example.

None of this removes my fear, though, of what is happening currently to the world, with the rise of groups which would replace democracy, for all its problems, with brutal, centralised authoritarianism, and even eventually the knock on the door in the middle of the night and people 'disappearing'.

I would suggest that your tendency to infer bad motivations without requisite evidence (as per your reply to Fen Canary) is highly culturally dependent. I'm living in a country sadistically decimated within living memory by a guy who was trained in Paris by the French Communist party. Here, as in much of Eastern Europe, the cultural ogre hiding behind every metaphorical rock is the return of that vicious, anti human ideology just as in Europe everything culturally suspect is quickly linked to 1930's Germany. 

Yet in the West even Liberal values such as free speech and the open marketplace of ideas are increasingly branded "right wing" , whilst rebranded Communist concepts such as equality of outcome ("equity") are normalised. Frustrated Communists such as the Frankfurt school group  are still being taught with reverence in my nephews Sociology University course. Any thinking person from a recently Communist country can identify what is going on here- I've met plenty. 

In a culture which can only see Totalitarian threat coming from one extreme and goes out of it's way to make excuses for the other extreme, it should be obvious which one is more likely to blindside you.  In short the Left needs to look in the mirror and have a reckoning with itself and stop insisting that "Left" and "Liberal" are interchangeable when they are clearly anything but. Even Orwell pointed out that the British Left had essentially cosied up to Stalin in the fight against Fascism. 

[duke63 542]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

Of course having an opinion that there is too much immigration is not in itself necessarily racist. The new far-right, however, is very keen not to appear bigoted or motivated by hatred since they know many (most?) people are horrified by a politics that aims to repeat what happened in Europe about a century ago.

The Nazis were voted into power and then took away the right to vote them out. If you don't think the same thing can happen again - 'it can't happen here' - I think you're deluded. 

You only have to look at Trump and the USA. Tried everything to change democratic rule when he knew the majority wanted someone else in charge.

[canarybubbles 1,923]

32 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

So you’re designating these parties as racist, despite them not having said anything or proposed any policies that are actually racist?

The Nazis were only ever voted in by around a third of the electorate, they were given much more power than their vote share deserves by establishment figures who thought the communists posed a bigger threat and the Nazis would be a safer bet

The protests began after it emerged AfD party members had attended meetings with neo-Nazis and other extremists to discuss the mass deportation of migrants, asylum seekers and German citizens of foreign origin deemed to have failed to integrate. (Guardian).

Not racist at all, are they? Not at all reminiscent of the 1930s?

Your second paragraph is factually correct, but fails to address my point that far-right groups use democracy to get into power and then remove democracy once they are in power. Let me repeat that the idea that the new far-right will not do this is either naive or disingenuous.

History suggests that the establishment, and especially big business, will usually cosy up to the far right in extremis. 

People died, and are still dying in many places, in order to gain rights and live in a system that is fair, humane and cares for everyone. We know from multiple historical examples what happens when the far-right gets into power (Germany, Spain, Chile, etc). There is no excuse for apologism for political groups like the AfD.

[Fen Canary 829]

31 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

The protests began after it emerged AfD party members had attended meetings with neo-Nazis and other extremists to discuss the mass deportation of migrants, asylum seekers and German citizens of foreign origin deemed to have failed to integrate. (Guardian).

Not racist at all, are they? Not at all reminiscent of the 1930s?

Your second paragraph is factually correct, but fails to address my point that far-right groups use democracy to get into power and then remove democracy once they are in power. Let me repeat that the idea that the new far-right will not do this is either naive or disingenuous.

History suggests that the establishment, and especially big business, will usually cosy up to the far right in extremis. 

People died, and are still dying in many places, in order to gain rights and live in a system that is fair, humane and cares for everyone. We know from multiple historical examples what happens when the far-right gets into power (Germany, Spain, Chile, etc). There is no excuse for apologism for political groups like the AfD.

The AfD certainly have a number of racist supporters, however what policies of theirs would you class as racist? Would left leaning parties be labelled as Communist if some of their supporters thought fondly of that ideology?

You claim there are multiple examples of right leaning parties being elected then suspending democracy, yet two of the examples you give came to power in military coups so I’m not sure your opinion is correct. Trying to link every right wing party as a reincarnation of the Nazis is just lazy fear mongering, designed to avoid actually discussing the issues they put forward and it’s a tactic the electorate are now starting to see through. If you label everything you don’t like as fascist eventually the word loses its power 

[Fen Canary 829]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Echoes of our recent past. Corbyn and his socialists very nearly come to power. The establishment ****s itself and rallies round to make sure this doesn't happen again. Johnson and his band of merry men get in with a massive majority clearing away any thoughts of a hard left government for a very long time. 

 

If Corbyn had stuck to his instincts and his life long scepticism of the EU and promised to uphold the referendum vote, as well as kicking the deeply unpopular Momentum to the kerb he’d have stood a much better chance at election. 2/3 of constituencies voted to leave so going against that was suicidal 

[canarybubbles 1,923]

10 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I would suggest that your tendency to infer bad motivations without requisite evidence (as per your reply to Fen Canary) is highly culturally dependent. I'm living in a country sadistically decimated within living memory by a guy who was trained in Paris by the French Communist party. Here, as in much of Eastern Europe, the cultural ogre hiding behind every metaphorical rock is the return of that vicious, anti human ideology just as in Europe everything culturally suspect is quickly linked to 1930's Germany. 

Yet in the West even Liberal values such as free speech and the open marketplace of ideas are increasingly branded "right wing" , whilst rebranded Communist concepts such as equality of outcome ("equity") are normalised. Frustrated Communists such as the Frankfurt school group  are still being taught with reverence in my nephews Sociology University course. Any thinking person from a recently Communist country can identify what is going on here- I've met plenty. 

In a culture which can only see Totalitarian threat coming from one extreme and goes out of it's way to make excuses for the other extreme, it should be obvious which one is more likely to blindside you.  In short the Left needs to look in the mirror and have a reckoning with itself and stop insisting that "Left" and "Liberal" are interchangeable when they are clearly anything but. Even Orwell pointed out that the British Left had essentially cosied up to Stalin in the fight against Fascism. 

I have also lived in an East-European country which suffered under Communism - the Czech Republic - so I'm aware from speaking to people there that authoritarianism is not limited to the far-right, and I accept that many of the European Left were incredibly naive about what was happening in the Soviet Union, although one reason for this was a (in my opinion, totally understandable) horror and disgust of what had happened in Germany.

I think the quote which I included in my latest reply to Fen Canary (admittedly from the Guardian, but I hope this doesn't mean that you instantly dismiss me as woke) is 'requisite evidence' that the AfD has no interest in democracy other than a way of gaining power and they are covertly pro-neo-Nazi.  

As for the Frankfurt School, I am glad your nephew is reading them, although I hope they are not being 'taught with reverence' because nothing should be taught with reverence at a university. Yes, they self-identified as Marxist, although ironically they were often criticised (with the possible exception of Althusser) for being bourgeois and not Marxist enough because of their interest in superstructural cultural issues rather than the vulgar Marxist insistence on the economic base. If your nephew disagrees with the key ideas of the Frankfurt School, it's his task as a student to construct good arguments against them. I hope he does.

Finally, I accept there is an element of 'woke' that is dismissive of opposing opinions and even sometimes seeks to silence them (e.g. no platforming), but this is massively exaggerated in my opinion and to equate it with the hate-filled rhetoric of groups like the AfD is simply wrong. I feel fairly sure you disagree with me on this, and we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

[canarybubbles 1,923]

10 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

The AfD certainly have a number of racist supporters, however what policies of theirs would you class as racist? Would left leaning parties be labelled as Communist if some of their supporters thought fondly of that ideology?

You claim there are multiple examples of right leaning parties being elected then suspending democracy, yet two of the examples you give came to power in military coups so I’m not sure your opinion is correct. Trying to link every right wing party as a reincarnation of the Nazis is just lazy fear mongering, designed to avoid actually discussing the issues they put forward and it’s a tactic the electorate are now starting to see through. If you label everything you don’t like as fascist eventually the word loses its power 

I agree very much with your final sentence, but when the AfD is meeting with neo-Nazi groups, what other word can you use?

While 'the mass deportation of migrants, asylum seekers and German citizens of foreign origin' may not technically classify as racism, since this is based on nationality rather than race, it is very reminiscent of early plans to deport Jews, which later transformed into placing them in concentration camps and exterminating them.

To quote Churchill's paraphrase of Santayana's original: 'Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'

When I read that around half the American population will vote for Trump even after knowing about his role in the Capitol insurrection, I feel pretty certain we will.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

12 hours ago, duke63 said:

So there will be very few courier drivers, bar or restaurant staff or coffee houses then. Our local pub/restaurant now closes at 9pm most week nights as they can’t get staff to do the job. 
Too many Brits have found the idle way of living by screwing the benefits system and so don’t want to work nor do they have the skills to work. 
I don’t get why people are so anti immigration, it’s usually to hide their dislike of ‘damn foreigners’. 
Britain is going backwards at an alarming rate with investment falling dramatically. It needs to be looking outwards and not inwards before the economy collapses. 

Politics / immigration is not something i know to much about but a simple example is ,

 i always say is the about Car wash people British people could have set up all these car washes but they didn't so you they are not taking their jobs   ,

you rarely see british people standing there in the cold washing cars , 

i do blame a lot of it on the Money youngsters see on TV , youngsters want to be a Blogger /reality  tv star  driving around in Range rover in their 20's with 40k watches on without lifting a finger yes it happens but only to a very small number ,

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

59 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

The AfD certainly have a number of racist supporters, however what policies of theirs would you class as racist? Would left leaning parties be labelled as Communist if some of their supporters thought fondly of that ideology?

You claim there are multiple examples of right leaning parties being elected then suspending democracy, yet two of the examples you give came to power in military coups so I’m not sure your opinion is correct. Trying to link every right wing party as a reincarnation of the Nazis is just lazy fear mongering, designed to avoid actually discussing the issues they put forward and it’s a tactic the electorate are now starting to see through. If you label everything you don’t like as fascist eventually the word loses its power 

Hungary's a prime example. Orban's pretty much got control of all the major media in Hungary and their last elections were no longer seen as fair.

How Viktor Orbán Wins | Journal of Democracy

European Parliament brands Hungary as ‘no longer a democracy’ – POLITICO

Hungary: Freedom in the World 2023 Country Report | Freedom House

Until Tusk formed his cabinet in Poland, then the PiS were following a similar copybook but to a lesser extent. Meanwhile, Recep Erdogan in Turkey is another who's systematically gutted laws, unjustifiably jailed journalists who espouse accurate criticism of his regime, and sent democracy backsliding.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

13 hours ago, duke63 said:

So there will be very few courier drivers, bar or restaurant staff or coffee houses then. Our local pub/restaurant now closes at 9pm most week nights as they can’t get staff to do the job. 
Too many Brits have found the idle way of living by screwing the benefits system and so don’t want to work nor do they have the skills to work. 
I don’t get why people are so anti immigration, it’s usually to hide their dislike of ‘damn foreigners’. 
Britain is going backwards at an alarming rate with investment falling dramatically. It needs to be looking outwards and not inwards before the economy collapses. 

That bit in bold looks incorrect as a far greater proportion of benefits are paid to the working poor, not the unemployed. These figures are from 2016 but it should make clear that unemployment is always a very small fraction of the welfare budget.

How is the welfare budget spent? - Office for National Statistics (ons.gov.uk)

I don't think anyone doubts that there are some people who do this here and there, but considering that Bernie Ecclestone has recently paid over £600m in previously unpaid tax recently, and this was just from one single tax evader, it's fair to say that tax evasion is a far more serious problem, and one that costs us far more money, than some people on unemployment benefit.

[shefcanary 2,410]

9 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

it's fair to say that tax evasion is a far more serious problem, and one that costs us far more money, than some people on unemployment benefit.

 ..... but you'll never see this championed by any politician under the current electoral set-up.