Could Farke have turned it around?

[ged in the onion bag 856]

On 15/12/2023 at 09:29, The Great Mass Debater said:

Wagner has been shown some faith. If Farke had been shown a similar amount of faith, could he too have seen some improvement in results?

PS - I dont really care if merely the existence of this question triggers the right people. If you dont like the question you can always ignore the post...

What do you think!    No point in asking a question and not giving your own opinion.   The simple and obvious answer is not a chance in hell.   

Love the guy but not even Pep could polish the turd of a squad he was left with.  No Emi, No Skipp and generally a school playground full of kids at Colney.

 

EDIT, 62% said yes!    Wow, fans really have short memories and rose tinted glasses.

Edited January 11 by ged in the onion bag

[lake district canary 4,539]

I've probably already answered on this thread, but the main problem Farke had was that we had that awful end to the first PL season and an awful start to the next PL season.  That problem kept in the limelight by the media and those that like to focus on any negatives they can find, took ther form of "twenty games without a win" or whatever it was.................which was nonsense given we had a record breaking season in between. That focus on the PL is what did for him and we will never know if he could have improved results - I'm pretty sure it would have improved - or done at least as well as Smith, who was just poor.

A fighting Farke team - like the one that showed up at Brentford - might have done better and we might have seen a better season overall, even if we still went down

Imo Farke was unlucky.  Unlucky that his first chance in the PL was ruined by the lockdown, unlucky the second time because of the truncated pre-season because of covid and the late arrival of new players.....and a fixture list that couldn't have been much worse at the start of the season.

Yet all we got was "Farke can't do it" and to me it seemed like a kind of madness - this pusuit of some fanciful idea that staying in the PL might be easier if we got someone else in.....made even more mad by the fact there didn't seem to be a plan after the sacking. 

There was a failure to recognise we were never going to be much better than we were, that Farke was still probably getting the best out of what players we had - and that he deserved a chance at a whole PL season, given the first one was so freakishly interupted and spoiled......and please don't start with the puerile "it was the same for all clubs"......it plainly was not.

It remains a taint on our history - a totally decent man, committed to the club for 8 years and who gave us some of the best football we've seen since that first PL season in 92/93.  It is simply a travesty that he was sacked....and for what?  What looks to me like two years of wilderness, faffing around trying to get a tune out of players with no sense of purpose, direction or consisten structure. At least with Farke we knew what we were getting - and often it was very good.

[Gordon Bennett 787]

Not a chance IMO.

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

He wouldn't have turned it around in the Premier by any means, but we probably did ditch our best promoter of youth in a long time when we got rid of him. Agree with the sentiment that in hindsight, Webber should have gone instead.

[First Wazzock 902]

I can't say one way or the other.

But, I'd have been more that happy to see him try. You just know the football would have been better.

Thanks Webber, you've totally screwed us...

[JonnyJonnyRowe 449]

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

He wouldn't have turned it around in the Premier by any means, but we probably did ditch our best promoter of youth in a long time when we got rid of him. Agree with the sentiment that in hindsight, Webber should have gone instead.

I've got a feeling that had he not been sacked he'd have resigned at the end of that season anyway, ready for a new challenge and out of frustration that transfer business didn't go his way. 

But I suspect most fans would rather him have left that way, perhaps with an announcement in April that he was going to leave for pastures new for a decent send off, rather than him being booted unceremoniously to be replaced with that mouth breather and his bouncer. In hindsight.

Edited January 11 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

55 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

EDIT, 62% said yes!    Wow, fans really have short memories and rose tinted glasses.

This is exactly the problem and so apparent on this forum too.

Fans generally have zero patience and are of course always infallible and always proved correct (not).

They always want scapegoats too - players, managers, owners or even sporting directors.

Loved Farke on the good days - same as Pukki -  but frankly it was time to move on for everybody.  

Enjoy the ride.

[Danke bitte 967]

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

He wouldn't have turned it around in the Premier by any means, but we probably did ditch our best promoter of youth in a long time when we got rid of him. Agree with the sentiment that in hindsight, Webber should have gone instead.

I said “no” to the poll. We simply didn’t have the right or robust players to play 4-2-3-1 under Farkeball and we certainly didn’t have the right players to play 4-3-3 the Webber formation (if believed he had a hand in it). The whole thing was a **** show. 

What I’m fascinated by is where was Webber’s Sliding Doors moment? It wasn’t sacking Farke. I think it was way before that. My gut is the selling of Buendia and the loss of Kieran Scott without an adequate replacement. Those two instances started Webber’s downfall. A shame, had he seen beyond his own nose things might have been different. I don’t think we’d of stayed in the Prem but the next two seasons might not have been as dire.

Equally we now have Knapper and (hopefully) impending investment from money we’d never had before. 

[shefcanary 2,426]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

I've probably already answered on this thread, but the main problem Farke had was that we had that awful end to the first PL season and an awful start to the next PL season.  That problem kept in the limelight by the media and those that like to focus on any negatives they can find, took ther form of "twenty games without a win" or whatever it was.................which was nonsense given we had a record breaking season in between. That focus on the PL is what did for him and we will never know if he could have improved results - I'm pretty sure it would have improved - or done at least as well as Smith, who was just poor.

A fighting Farke team - like the one that showed up at Brentford - might have done better and we might have seen a better season overall, even if we still went down

Imo Farke was unlucky.  Unlucky that his first chance in the PL was ruined by the lockdown, unlucky the second time because of the truncated pre-season because of covid and the late arrival of new players.....and a fixture list that couldn't have been much worse at the start of the season.

Yet all we got was "Farke can't do it" and to me it seemed like a kind of madness - this pusuit of some fanciful idea that staying in the PL might be easier if we got someone else in.....made even more mad by the fact there didn't seem to be a plan after the sacking. 

There was a failure to recognise we were never going to be much better than we were, that Farke was still probably getting the best out of what players we had - and that he deserved a chance at a whole PL season, given the first one was so freakishly interupted and spoiled......and please don't start with the puerile "it was the same for all clubs"......it plainly was not.

It remains a taint on our history - a totally decent man, committed to the club for 8 years and who gave us some of the best football we've seen since that first PL season in 92/93.  It is simply a travesty that he was sacked....and for what?  What looks to me like two years of wilderness, faffing around trying to get a tune out of players with no sense of purpose, direction or consisten structure. At least with Farke we knew what we were getting - and often it was very good.

Can't you do a tl:dr when you go on one of your Farke posts. They are always so long but never say anything different. 

You love him, you didn't want him to go, you want him back.

🥱

[lake district canary 4,539]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Can't you do a tl:dr when you go on one of your Farke posts. They are always so long but never say anything different. 

You love him, you didn't want him to go, you want him back.

🥱

Apologies, it just really gets my goat whenever the subject crops up. 

[shefcanary 2,426]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

Apologies, it just really gets my goat whenever the subject crops up. 

We know 🙂 

My main concern at the moment is when will Attanasio gain assent from the EFL so we can all move on, so to speak. Tell me if you find that equally as boring! 😉 

Bloody EFL and their interference in the club's running. You'd think they had responsibility for the game! 🤬

[Sufyellow 222]

11 hours ago, non-scoring strikers said:

Urgh. Give it a rest.

He wasn’t good enough. Get over it.

Good enough for what ? To manage a mid championship run club, I think he proved that wrong a couple of times   

[Sufyellow 222]

4 hours ago, duke63 said:

Can't believe so many are still harping on about this.

The facts are Farke was brilliant in the Championship (for us) and abysmal in the EPL. The worst EPL performing manager in our history.

He's gone. Get over it and support the Club and team now. You can't live in the past!

We are a mid championship club. That's what the board and fans forgot . 

[Sufyellow 222]

3 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

He wouldn't have turned it around in the Premier by any means, but we probably did ditch our best promoter of youth in a long time when we got rid of him. Agree with the sentiment that in hindsight, Webber should have gone instead.

It wasn't just the promoter of youth , down to him and his coaching team he made youngsters hit their peak,  Lewis , Cantwell and Aaron's,  their skill levels improved vastly over a few months, they could bring a ball down and be on the front foot with one touch. Not a single player has improved since him and his staff left. On the pitch players passed where a player should be , they didn't spend 30 seconds looking for someone. When he left we totally lost our identity and we are still nowhere near finding it. 

[Sufyellow 222]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

This is exactly the problem and so apparent on this forum too.

Fans generally have zero patience and are of course always infallible and always proved correct (not).

They always want scapegoats too - players, managers, owners or even sporting directors.

Loved Farke on the good days - same as Pukki -  but frankly it was time to move on for everybody.  

Enjoy the ride.

I think the problem was at the time our fans who wanted him out , were greedy spoilt little brats , who couldn't see we were a mid championship run football club. The problem is some how the board who never backed him or signed one decent premier league ready player agreed. Nothing in the way our club is run is Premier league.  

[ged in the onion bag 856]

5 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

What I’m fascinated by is where was Webber’s Sliding Doors moment? It wasn’t sacking Farke. I think it was way before that. My gut is the selling of Buendia and the loss of Kieran Scott without an adequate replacement. Those two instances started Webber’s downfall. A shame, had he seen beyond his own nose things might have been different. I don’t think we’d of stayed in the Prem but the next two seasons might not have been as dire.

Equally we now have Knapper and (hopefully) impending investment from money we’d never had before. 

For me it was the failure to recognise how important CDM's are in football nowadays..... followed by those two instances.  

[chicken 2,636]

8 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Michael Bailey did a piece on this. I can't remember if it was for Pink'Un or Athletic (I suspect the latter but haven't found the piece to re-post here yet as I only recently took up a subscription, will keep on looking unless anyone else has it to hand).

Bailey quoted sources at the club that Farke identified 3 key positions he wanted to fill with a good quality player,. That same person said Webber was more concerned with the level of injuries they had incurred the previous season, so decided to have a greater number of players brought in to cover all potential outcomes. That meant the money available was spread more thinly, so Farke did not get the  quality of player he wanted. 

Didn't Bailey also do a piece on players we missed out on and why which suggested that rather than not go for quality, Webber wasn't prepared to go all out for it?

[chicken 2,636]

2 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

It wasn't just the promoter of youth , down to him and his coaching team he made youngsters hit their peak,  Lewis , Cantwell and Aaron's,  their skill levels improved vastly over a few months, they could bring a ball down and be on the front foot with one touch. Not a single player has improved since him and his staff left. On the pitch players passed where a player should be , they didn't spend 30 seconds looking for someone. When he left we totally lost our identity and we are still nowhere near finding it. 

Sort of...

Neil Adams has to get some credit here as Cantwell, Godfrey and others really came into their own after a good developmental loan.

Lewis and Aarons were different to that.

[shefcanary 2,426]

10 minutes ago, chicken said:

Didn't Bailey also do a piece on players we missed out on and why which suggested that rather than not go for quality, Webber wasn't prepared to go all out for it?

Yes, that was in it, but his ultimately aim was headcount, so the budget was oxed and inflexible. Sure, if he could have got the quality players plus the other headcount in the budget he would have done it. Farke though would have been content with just the 3, but more expensive, players was the gist of Bailey's article. 

Money again ...

[duke63 543]

2 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

We are a mid championship club. That's what the board and fans forgot . 

And too many on here forget that football supporting is cyclical. There will be good times and bad times. It's the way of life.

I doubt Chelsea or Man U fans expected to see their teams being so bang average......but they are at the moment.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

9 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

What do you think!    No point in asking a question and not giving your own opinion.   The simple and obvious answer is not a chance in hell.   

Love the guy but not even Pep could polish the turd of a squad he was left with.  No Emi, No Skipp and generally a school playground full of kids at Colney.

 

EDIT, 62% said yes!    Wow, fans really have short memories and rose tinted glasses.

I dont think he could have avoided relegation, and I agree with you, I dont think anybody could have kept that squad up. I think Farke could have gotten enough out of the squad to have given it a go though, relegation, but a respectable attempt at staying up, and then a proven winner to attack the Championship next season.

So it depends what you mean by turning it around. For me to have been in with a chance of staying up by April means he's done a respectable job. We have to be realistic, we cant compete in the transfer market so we are only going to get players our rivals dont want. So any expectation of staying up is totally deluded

[ged in the onion bag 856]

13 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

I dont think he could have avoided relegation, and I agree with you, I dont think anybody could have kept that squad up. I think Farke could have gotten enough out of the squad to have given it a go though, relegation, but a respectable attempt at staying up, and then a proven winner to attack the Championship next season.

So it depends what you mean by turning it around. For me to have been in with a chance of staying up by April means he's done a respectable job. We have to be realistic, we cant compete in the transfer market so we are only going to get players our rivals dont want. So any expectation of staying up is totally deluded

Firstly, I wish we still had Farke, love the guy, but….  
 

What Smith did was make us more difficult to beat whereas Farke had no attacking threat and we were exposed defensively.    Farke tried to pass out from the back at the Etihad for example.   
 

He had a squad incapable of playing his style in the EPL.    One win against Brentford didn’t change anything.  Smith probably got us more points than Farke would have.    Remember, before Brentford, most were asking for his head.    Yes Webber was at fault but this forum was in uproar and most blamed Farke’s tactics and general approach!   ‘We expected to lose that game etc…’
 

We did him a favour letting him go as it would have got intolerable and that would not have been fair on him.   At some point that season he would have gone and it wouldn’t have been pleasant, he’d have lost all the appreciation we had for him.   

Edited January 11 by ged in the onion bag

[chicken 2,636]

2 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Yes, that was in it, but his ultimately aim was headcount, so the budget was oxed and inflexible. Sure, if he could have got the quality players plus the other headcount in the budget he would have done it. Farke though would have been content with just the 3, but more expensive, players was the gist of Bailey's article. 

Money again ...

Yeah... and if I'm honest, I think we needed a blend of both. If we went with 3 quality players, it'd have meant keeping players we let go as depth.

I think I've said before that of the players loaned out etc, only really Vrancic and Onel really offered anything we'd seen impact games at the top end of the champs or prem before.

I think Cantwell's fall from grace, in hindsight, lost us one of our top five players.

Lastly, the only issue I have with this is the suggestion that Farke wasn't on board with this approach, Lees-Melou was a player he wanted.

Equally, we put down decent offers for Armstrong(bullet dodged), Ajer, Billing and others.

Lambert et al had the best approach IMHO. How many £2-3m players did we sign that gave us those 3 seasons in the prem, some the return with Alex Neil? Howson, Bennett, Bennett, Pilkington, etc.

Edit: Equally, as much as the dislike of Webber goes, three quality players is a risk in any squad when it comes to injuries, let alone one where we sold our best creative player.

Edited January 11 by chicken

[Sufyellow 222]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Firstly, I wish we still had Farke, love the guy, but….  
 

What Smith did was make us more difficult to beat whereas Farke had no attacking threat and we were exposed defensively.    Farke tried to pass out from the back at the Etihad for example.   
 

He had a squad incapable of playing his style in the EPL.    One win against Brentford didn’t change anything.  Smith probably got us more points than Farke would have.    Remember, before Brentford, most were asking for his head.    Yes Webber was at fault but this forum was in uproar and most blamed Farke’s tactics and general approach!   ‘We expected to lose that game etc…’
 

We did him a favour letting him go as it would have got intolerable and that would not have been fair on him.   At some point that season he would have gone and it wouldn’t have been pleasant, he’d have lost all the appreciation we had for him.   

How on earth do you think smith made us more difficult to beat ? Arsenal home, Southampton away , West ham , Newcastle,  spurs , just a few I remember where we had lost before we even started.  We were rubbish.  In Farke's 11 games he lost to Arsenal,  dodgy goal,  lost to Leicester,  goal cancelled out, lost to Leeds,  bad mistake by defender and krul. Lost heavily to Liverpool,  man City and Chelsea,  the bad result was Watford.

[Fen Canary 848]

31 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

How on earth do you think smith made us more difficult to beat ? Arsenal home, Southampton away , West ham , Newcastle,  spurs , just a few I remember where we had lost before we even started.  We were rubbish.  In Farke's 11 games he lost to Arsenal,  dodgy goal,  lost to Leicester,  goal cancelled out, lost to Leeds,  bad mistake by defender and krul. Lost heavily to Liverpool,  man City and Chelsea,  the bad result was Watford.

Farke lost 8 out of 11 (73% of matches) that season and picked up 0.45 points per game which over a season would leave us on 17 points.

Smith lost 18 out of 27 (66% of matches) and picked up 0.63 points per game which over a season would leave us on 24 points.

Both pretty awful records, but Smiths was marginally better, and technically we were slightly harder to beat 

[ged in the onion bag 856]

1 hour ago, Sufyellow said:

How on earth do you think smith made us more difficult to beat ? Arsenal home, Southampton away , West ham , Newcastle,  spurs , just a few I remember where we had lost before we even started.  We were rubbish.  In Farke's 11 games he lost to Arsenal,  dodgy goal,  lost to Leicester,  goal cancelled out, lost to Leeds,  bad mistake by defender and krul. Lost heavily to Liverpool,  man City and Chelsea,  the bad result was Watford.

Not saying Smith was any good there but he did make us more defensive as the few clean sheets showed, think Burnley, Brighton etc…. Gradually the team lost more and more confidence but that was inevitable whoever was in charge.   You have to take account of all the factors and what generally happens in such circumstances.   Hope and expectation during those early games gradually fades and gets replaced by frustration, lack of desire / care and senses of inevitability.   You can’t compare results in isolation.     Smith also had a period of many injuries if I recall.   
 

But you’re just picking up on one point rather than considering the context of the whole post.   What’s the point of that.  
 

Like I said, I prefer Farke, he was brilliant, it wasn’t his fault the squad he had but if he wasn’t sacked after Brentford, it would have happened soon after that anyway.   Webber sent him back to war without a gun!   

[Sufyellow 222]

7 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Farke lost 8 out of 11 (73% of matches) that season and picked up 0.45 points per game which over a season would leave us on 17 points.

Smith lost 18 out of 27 (66% of matches) and picked up 0.63 points per game which over a season would leave us on 24 points.

Both pretty awful records, but Smiths was marginally better, and technically we were slightly harder to beat 

Then take out his first game against Southampton,  he played the fans team in the first halve and we should of been 3 or 4 down at half time , he changed to Farke's team 2nd half and we somehow won. Smith had 75% of the season to turn us into some sort of team with a playing style, he totally failed , as I said last 3 home games 3,4 and 5,0 defeats , not in the games at any stage same against Southampton and Newcastle. 

Farke also lost 3 of his last six , one being Chelsea away, so maybe he was beginning to find some sort of answer.  He would of never kept us up though , no one would the players were  nowhere near good enough. 

[Fen Canary 848]

25 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

Then take out his first game against Southampton,  he played the fans team in the first halve and we should of been 3 or 4 down at half time , he changed to Farke's team 2nd half and we somehow won. Smith had 75% of the season to turn us into some sort of team with a playing style, he totally failed , as I said last 3 home games 3,4 and 5,0 defeats , not in the games at any stage same against Southampton and Newcastle. 

Farke also lost 3 of his last six , one being Chelsea away, so maybe he was beginning to find some sort of answer.  He would have never kept us up though , no one would the players were  nowhere near good enough. 

You can’t just discount results just because it doesn’t fit the narrative. Smiths result against Southampton counts just as much as Farkes (rather flukey from memory) victory over Brentford.

Also that game away at Chelsea is possibly the most abject performance I’ve ever seen from a Norwich team. We lost 7-0 and frankly that result flattered us. We were very lucky not to beat the binners 9-0 score line, and Chelsea didn’t even need to get out of first gear 

[ged in the onion bag 856]

32 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

Then take out his first game against Southampton,  he played the fans team in the first halve and we should of been 3 or 4 down at half time , he changed to Farke's team 2nd half and we somehow won. Smith had 75% of the season to turn us into some sort of team with a playing style, he totally failed , as I said last 3 home games 3,4 and 5,0 defeats , not in the games at any stage same against Southampton and Newcastle. 

Farke also lost 3 of his last six , one being Chelsea away, so maybe he was beginning to find some sort of answer.  He would have never kept us up though , no one would the players were  nowhere near good enough. 

You’re just refusing to read the responses rationally.    With your simplistic logic, if Leeds beat Norwich and West Brom beat Leeds, there’s no chance on earth that Norwich beat West Brom.   It doesn’t work like that.   

[For the future 65]

Yes