Is Sunak losing his marbles?

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

The Elgin Marbles.

It absurd Sunak is playing petty politics with this. Even the British Museum is happy to come to some arrangement with the Greeks from where they were 'pinched' in the late 19th century. They surely belong today with the Acropolis!

[horsefly 4,318]

Imagine Na*zi Germany had succeeded in invading the UK. Imagine they sold off all the Trafalgar Square monuments (Nelson, the Lions) to Greece. Imagine we then overthrew the Na*zis. Would we now be asking for our monuments back, or would we say "fair do's, you bought them from the ruling government"?

Edited November 29, 2023 by horsefly

[NFN FC 1,123]

19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Imagine Na*zi Germany had succeeded in invading the UK. Imagine they sold off all the Trafalgar Square monuments (Nelson, the Lions) to Greece. Imagine we then overthrew the Na*zis. Would we now be asking for our monuments back, or would we say "fair do's, you bought them from the ruling government"?

We'd have probably just gone in and got them.

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

More "culture wars" nonsense from a party that have lost their marbles.

[Herman 9,836]

Don't be too hard on Sunak. The poor thing just got a battering in PMQs. 😂

[sonyc 5,541]

Sunak roasted today by Starmer in PMQs.

Nice link to Cleverly today as well and sharp humour by Starmer.😃

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by sonyc

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

5 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Sunak roasted today by Starmer in PMQs.

Nice link to Cleverly today as well and sharp humour by Starmer.

 

I liked the opening comment....

He says the PM spent this week arguing about an ancient relic which a tiny amount of the British public have interest in, referring to the row over the Parthenon Sculptures, or Elgin Marbles.

"That’s enough about the Tory Party," Starmer jokes.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

Ah, the Sadim touch strikes.

[ricardo 7,402]

Every time they ask for the marbles we should chip a bit off and send it to them.

Fairs, fair.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,599]

The Elgin marbles were saved from destruction by Elgin buying them. They were purchased legally and are in far better condition than any of the marbles remaining in Greece, half of which were destroyed in Greece by Greeks.

Maybe one day, if we really need a favour from Greece, we should talk about it, but there's no moral or legal case to give them away.

Edited November 29, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,836]

Well, there's a shock.🤨

[littleyellowbirdie 2,599]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

Well, there's a shock.🤨

What moral case is there given that Greece itself has been responsible for the destruction of a huge proportion of the Parthenon marbles?

They squandered them. The ones Elgin purchased have been looked after. Greece does't deserve them.

[Daz Sparks 1,186]

13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

They were purchased legally

From Elgin, maybe.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,599]

1 minute ago, Daz Sparks said:

From Elgin, maybe.

By Elgin, without doubt. If there was a legal case they would have pursued it by now.

[Daz Sparks 1,186]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

By Elgin, without doubt. If there was a legal case they would have pursued it by now.

Doubt exists.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,599]

4 minutes ago, Daz Sparks said:

Doubt exists.

Only among people who don't know anything. Like I said, where's the court case if it was unlawful?

Which of the Parthenon marbles in the world are the best preserved and why?

Edited November 29, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Daz Sparks 1,186]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Only among people who don't know anything.

Wooly.

[Herman 9,836]

It's probably a bit too tough to take the Ottoman Empire to court.

[Barbe bleu 832]

Weirdly, I knew exactly what everyone of you would be saying before I read the comments you made.

Do you all consult rule books before commenting?

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[littleyellowbirdie 2,599]

58 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Weirdly, I knew exactly what everyone of you would be saying before I read the comments you made.

Do you all consult rule books before commenting?

 

The rule is, if you're left of centre and there's a dispute involving Britain, you automatically support the other party's complaint, regardless of the facts.

Edited November 29, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[NFN FC 1,123]

1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

Weirdly, I knew exactly what everyone of you would be saying before I read the comments you made.

Do you all consult rule books before commenting?

 

Lobotomy. Poorag. Chimpanzee. 

[Barbe bleu 832]

42 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The rule is, if you're left of centre and there's a dispute involving Britain, you automatically support the other party's complaint, regardless of the facts.

That's true.  But I knew what you would say too!

[Barbe bleu 832]

8 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

Lobotomy. Poorag. Chimpanzee. 

Yup, you got me.  The three words are both very apt for this side of the pink un, but also utterly unpredictable

Edited November 29, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[Herman 9,836]

40 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

That's true.  But I knew what you would say too!

We all knew what side of the fence you would sit on too, so you're not as unique as you think.

[PurpleCanary 5,586]

2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Weirdly, I knew exactly what everyone of you would be saying before I read the comments you made.

Do you all consult rule books before commenting?

 

BB, if you know what I would have said if I had thought about posting perhaps you could post it anyway. It would save me the trouble…😛

[littleyellowbirdie 2,599]

Why shouldn't accusations of theft coming from  the Greek government be considered populist nationalism on its government's part? The marbles may have been on land that is now Greece, but the current Greek state had no jurisdiction there at the time that Elgin purchased the marbles from the Turks who governed Greece at the time. The marbles themselves are an artifact of ancient Greece, not modern Greece. Ancient Greek civilisation is part of the heritage of all human civilisation and an Empire in its own right that stretched beyond the borders of modern Greece.

Each marble is a work of art in its own right. The parthenon itself is a ruin beyond restoration, with many of the original parthenon marbles completely destroyed. Their return to Greece just puts all of the ruins back together, potentially to all be destroyed together as the parthenon was. They are well-cared for in London and accessible for no charge to anyone who wants to visit. 

Greece's self-righteous rhetoric about them is uncalled for, unreasonable, and unjustied. 

Indeed, the matter was under quiet negotiation, so why did Mitsoakis decide to try to publicly embarrass the British government while constructive negotiations were underway? If the roles were reversed, the UK government would be massively criticised for clumsy handling of a delicate discussion. If anyone was trying to create a crisis it was Mitsoakis; if it has set back Greece's chances of achieving a settlement, it's his fault. 

Hilariously, all the lefties here are egging on the leader of new democracy, a right wing party. Maybe it's a magnetism thing? Lefties in one country become friends of all the foreign right wing causes? 

Edited November 29, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Barbe bleu 832]

33 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

BB, if you know what I would have said if I had thought about posting perhaps you could post it anyway. It would save me the trouble…😛

 I know you are broadly supportive of returning the marbles.  You look at the issue through the lens of righting some form of colonial wrong, but you are smart enough to realise why that argument doesn't quite work.

Although your thoughts in the actual issue are conflicted you do see the story as an opportunity at having  a pop at government and that makes you smile.

You'll be polite about how you say it and the post will be quite businesslike. You are not adverse to the idea that people will think you are educated and serious but wouldn't go as far as telling  the world about something like a PhD or a Cambridge education.

About right?

Edited November 29, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

Back to the issue. Only Sunak has politicised this. Osborne (Tory) seems quite happy with the principal so not a left or right issue but more petty nationalism or even spoils of empire for some.

BB seems to be making an argument for the British Museum being a world repository of global civilizations easy to visit for everybody. We'll I think topically people from Nigeria or indeed Greece having to visit the UK (and a visa?) to see their own heritage is absurd. Its just an argument that is hollow but happens to suit us.

Today, we as many other countries cherish and protect our heritage. There are laws to stop (or to be purchased for the nation) export of items of heritage. Nothing to do with monetary value or even ownership.

As to arguments of antiquity, how would we feel if Stonehenge (or Tower Bridge) was bought by a US billionaire amd moved to Florida or Shanghai.  Stonehenge by the way was robbed for stones over millenia and only somewhat restored in relativley modern times. The Acropolis survived better!

Simply the Greeks wish for the return of an iconic part of their heritage removed in ignorance. Same as we would too.

LYB argument is simply misplaced. These items have not become in any way part of our British heritage.

[sonyc 5,541]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The rule is, if you're left of centre and there's a dispute involving Britain, you automatically support the other party's complaint, regardless of the facts.

The thing is LYB that life here is going to the dogs. This meaningful graph happens to be about Brexit but it applies to any issue relating to us....just cross out Brexit and substitute waterways pollution or cost of living crisis, RAAC concrete in schools or hospitals or HS2 or transport strikes or mortgage rates or hospital waiting lists or small boats.....😅

Tonight another local authority has gone bankrupt....

Edited November 29, 2023 by sonyc
Loved this ridiculous oversimplified graph btw...a kind of understated satire

[dylanisabaddog 5,010]

Another huge own goal by Sunak. This is an opportunity to create some much needed goodwill. Now Starmer will get the goodwill in a year's time. 

It really is simple. We have something we don't want which is of no value to us. The Greeks want it so why not look benevolent and give them back?  I doubt we'll need the Greeks in the future but you never know and it never hurts to have a friend. And let's face it, hardly anyone in Britain gives a damn about the marbles. Most don't even know what they are. 

The problem is that the return will create a precedent. We will be faced by countries asking for all sorts of returns and reparations. I'm not proud of our imperial past but on the other hand I'm not keen on paying for it either. I assume that's why Starmer is talking loaning the marbles to Greece. Perhaps it's wise to wait a year and leave it to him. 

PS as a young child I was taken to the British Museum expecting to see the world's oldest marbles. Imagine my disappointment when I found out they were nothing to do with a childs game.....