Is Sunak losing his marbles?

[Daz Sparks 1,186]

27 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

It really is simple. We have something we don't want which is of no value to us. The Greeks want it so why not look benevolent and give them back?

This sums it up for me, regardless of the rights and wrongs of what happened over 200 years ago, the one thing that is clear, they were never British.

[Herman 9,837]

The Museum gives them back on proviso they get other stuff to put on special displays. The Museum gets these new displays for a limited time and charges people £10-20 a ticket. The Museum makes a bit more money than it would have having the sculptures on free display and it gets brownie points with the Greeks. Sorted.

[Herman 9,837]

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Another huge own goal by Sunak. This is an opportunity to create some much needed goodwill. Now Starmer will get the goodwill in a year's time. 

It really is simple. We have something we don't want which is of no value to us. The Greeks want it so why not look benevolent and give them back?  I doubt we'll need the Greeks in the future but you never know and it never hurts to have a friend. And let's face it, hardly anyone in Britain gives a damn about the marbles. Most don't even know what they are. 

The problem is that the return will create a precedent. We will be faced by countries asking for all sorts of returns and reparations. I'm not proud of our imperial past but on the other hand I'm not keen on paying for it either. I assume that's why Starmer is talking loaning the marbles to Greece. Perhaps it's wise to wait a year and leave it to him. 

PS as a young child I was taken to the British Museum expecting to see the world's oldest marbles. Imagine my disappointment when I found out they were nothing to do with a childs game.....

 

Is it though? It's a Greek grievance, just like Argentina has a grievance over the Falklands, Argentina has a grievance over the Belgrano, just like BLM have a grievance, just like Spain has a grievance over Gibraltar.

Every single group with grievances against the UK has its argument, and in every single case there's a valid counter-argument. What do you do when someone has a grievance against you? Do you just accept anything they say and roll over for it like a good boy for 'good will'? If so, I'm pretty sure you owe me a thousand quid over the compound interest on a beer I bought someone in Norwich 20 years ago and never got a round back. I'm sure it was you. 😉

Elgin made a transaction with the then government of that territory regarding some pieces of ancient history relevant to all of human history, not just Greece's history that are well looked over and avalable for public viewing where they are. The Parthenon is a ruin beyond restoration. Sending them back doesn't fix anything, and it'll signal to everyone else with a grievance, valid or otherwise, to keep pushing.

First thing they need to do is drop the rhetoric about theft, showing some respect that part of their history has been preserved better than all of the other Parthenon marbles because of what Elgin did, and then start a conversation about sharing where they have an understandable claim; their current confrontational attitude should be given the contempt it deserves.

Edited November 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Daz Sparks 1,186]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Is it though. It's a Greek grievance, just like the Falklands has a grievance, just like BLM have a grievance, just like Spain has a grievance.

Every single group with grievances in the UK has its argument, and in every single case there's a valid counter-argument. What do you do when someone has a grievance against you? Do you just accept anything they say and roll over for it like a good boy?

I'm not fervently behind either side in the case of these sculptures, but I do agree with you that in all liklihood, that they are in a better condition now, than they would have been if left in situ two centuries ago. 

The diplomatic spat this week has shone a light on the subject and evoked a debate in places where previously there was none. So in a way, the Greek PM has had a small win there. Going back to the first point though, it seems some kind of compromise in the vien that Herman mentions seems sensible. 

Finally, no-one can deny that Rishi has indeed scored an own goal on the subject. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

10 minutes ago, Daz Sparks said:

I'm not fervently behind either side in the case of these sculptures, but I do agree with you that in all liklihood, that they are in a better condition now, than they would have been if left in situ two centuries ago. 

The diplomatic spat this week has shone a light on the subject and evoked a debate in places where previously there was none. So in a way, the Greek PM has had a small win there. Going back to the first point though, it seems some kind of compromise in the vien that Herman mentions seems sensible. 

Finally, no-one can deny that Rishi has indeed scored an own goal on the subject. 

It's a fair point about debate. I'd be happy to see compromise and cooperation on it. Maybe rotating the collection between the British museum and whatever location in Greece they fancy. There has been negotation going on about this for some time though that has been moving forwards The Greek PM made a decision to embarrass the UK government anyway and they're calling Elgin a thief. They should tone it down if they want things to move forward in my view.

Personally, I think Rishi was right. The Greek PM politicked on an issue that has been privately progressing. That's unacceptable. If embarrassing the UK was more important to him than talking about a range of other important subjects then it was right to tell him to go away.

Edited November 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

Anyway - Was watching a paper review last night and even the 'House' Tory was perplexed at Sunak's actions - either trying to stoke a petty miscalculated culture war targeted at the dim - or was just over reacting to a small Greek irritation (a trait apparently). The third possibility was that it was simply a dead cat diversionary tactic from other Tory bad news -  immigration, covid enquiry, take your pick! 

[TheGunnShow 6,021]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

 

Knowing this incompetent shower I wouldn't be surprised if they got sent to Rwanda by mistake.

Then there's this: April King on X: "Pretty much everything at the British Museum." / X (twitter.com)

Edited November 30, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[dylanisabaddog 5,014]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The Parthenon is a ruin beyond restoration. 

 

Have you actually been to the Parthenon? It's 2,500 years old for God's sake! 

Someone else says the Greeks wouldn't look after the marbles as well as us. How condescending! Go to the Parthenon museum. It's an extraordinary place and the exhibits there are extremely well looked after. The marbles in our possession are certainly no better but I suppose we should be pleased they haven't been stolen bearing in mind what's been going on at the British Museum! 

[TheGunnShow 6,021]

Although the Frauenkirche in Dresden was rebuilt with what were basically two bits of wall left standing. And the Houses of Parliament might look bombastic - but it'll cost several billion to restore them properly.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

53 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Have you actually been to the Parthenon? It's 2,500 years old for God's sake! 

Someone else says the Greeks wouldn't look after the marbles as well as us. How condescending! Go to the Parthenon museum. It's an extraordinary place and the exhibits there are extremely well looked after. The marbles in our possession are certainly no better but I suppose we should be pleased they haven't been stolen bearing in mind what's been going on at the British Museum! 

Nobody said they wouldn't look after them; Greece didn't look after the marbles, as evidenced by the fact that the best remaining examples of the parthenon marbles haven't been in Greece. Those that have been destroyed were destroyed in Greece.

I'm not saying there isn't a reasonable discussion to be had and there has been one ongoing, but if they want to pronounce Elgin to be a thief for the sake of their right wing prime minister wanting to win a few votes through sabre rattling then it should be given short shrift. The fact that people like you give succour to other countries behaving like that is a problem.

Sunak claimed it was agreed not to raise that publicly in a meeting that was supposed to be about more important issues. There's no reason to disbelieve that in what looks like opportunism by the Greek PM for a bit of his own populist domestic rabble-rousing, which is understandable seeing as Greece is even more of a ruin than the UK is.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,837]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Anyway - Was watching a paper review last night and even the 'House' Tory was perplexed at Sunak's actions - either trying to stoke a petty miscalculated culture war targeted at the dim - or was just over reacting to a small Greek irritation (a trait apparently). The third possibility was that it was simply a dead cat diversionary tactic from other Tory bad news -  immigration, covid enquiry, take your pick! 

As was pointed out on radio, he's just not very good at this populism malarkey. It only seems to work on a tiny group of eejits. Even his dead cats turn out to be alive and frisky. 

[sonyc 5,541]

59 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Have you actually been to the Parthenon? It's 2,500 years old for God's sake! 

Someone else says the Greeks wouldn't look after the marbles as well as us. How condescending! Go to the Parthenon museum. It's an extraordinary place and the exhibits there are extremely well looked after. The marbles in our possession are certainly no better but I suppose we should be pleased they haven't been stolen bearing in mind what's been going on at the British Museum! 

I've been praying that Dimi doesn't visit this part of the message board and sticks purely to the football section and fans view of his performance - otherwise I might fear a transfer request in the January window.

Edit: I was looking at the various threads last night about the Marbles and this Alice Roberts thread was interesting in the various comments. 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by sonyc

[TheGunnShow 6,021]

3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I've been praying that Dimi doesn't visit this part of the message board and sticks purely to the football section and fans view of his performance - otherwise I might fear a transfer request in the January window.

You'd think he'd find little Tzolis? 😉

[ricardo 7,402]

3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I've been praying that Dimi doesn't visit this part of the message board and sticks purely to the football section and fans view of his performance - otherwise I might fear a transfer request in the January window.

Playing one of statues at left back would improve our defence.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

18 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I've been praying that Dimi doesn't visit this part of the message board and sticks purely to the football section and fans view of his performance - otherwise I might fear a transfer request in the January window.

Edit: I was looking at the various threads last night about the Marbles and this Alice Roberts thread was interesting in the various comments. 

 

Why? Do you not think he's capable of recognising there are two sides to this discussion?

It's bad enough you're all so uncompromising in your standpoints. The fact you're all so uncompromisingly and reliably against your own country is what irritates and makes your politics so unattractive.

Funnily enough, Starmer explicitly suggested telling the Greek PM no during PMQs, but he suggested doing it as part of the meeting rather than calling the meeting off. Wasnt a bad point to be fair, but then he's a far cry from the bulk of his party and its supporters.

Edited November 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,060]

12 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Why shouldn't accusations of theft coming from  the Greek government be considered populist nationalism on its government's part? The marbles may have been on land that is now Greece, but the current Greek state had no jurisdiction there at the time that Elgin purchased the marbles from the Turks who governed Greece at the time.

There is no evidence that Elgin paid anything to the Ottoman Empire for the removal of the marbles, you're making that part up. The British Museum claim that he was provided with a document from the Sultan that gave him permission to "remove pieces", but even that document, which suspiciously hasn't survived, was deemed ambiguous and largely interpreted as referring to pieces in the rubble and not anything that interfered with the walls of the structure. It did not permit the hacking away of the marbles with saws and mallets, as people present at the time confirmed happened.

Given the fact that many of the Parthenon Marbles are still in Athens, you are once again talking nonsense about them being safer in the UK. The majority of the destruction of the original marbles had already happened at the point of Elgin's removal.

The only know financial transaction is the one that Elgin received, but buying something from a thief does not make that property yours.

And the idea that this was some sort of preservation exercise is utterly laughable. They were dumped in a coal shed in Burlington House where Elgin himself confirmed they were suffering damage from damp. Almost as soon as Elgin got them home he was sniffing for a profit, trying to sell them to the British Government at a price they would not consider. It wasn't until Elgin's financial troubles escalated that he parted with them in 1816 for considerably less than what he had hoped to receive (he stated it was less than half the amount it cost to fund the project to remove/steal them).

I'm a History graduate and the British Museum is one of my favourite places in the UK. The Parthenon Marbles should not be there.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

There is no evidence that Elgin paid anything to the Ottoman Empire for the removal of the marbles, you're making that part up. The British Museum claim that he was provided with a document from the Sultan that gave him permission to "remove pieces", but even that document, which suspiciously hasn't survived, was deemed ambiguous and largely interpreted as referring to pieces in the rubble and not anything that interfered with the walls of the structure. It did not permit the hacking away of the marbles with saws and mallets, as people present at the time confirmed happened.

Given the fact that many of the Parthenon Marbles are still in Athens, you are once again talking nonsense about them being safer in the UK. The majority of the destruction of the original marbles had already happened at the point of Elgin's removal.

The only know financial transaction is the one that Elgin received, but buying something from a thief does not make that property yours.

And the idea that this was some sort of preservation exercise is utterly laughable. They were dumped in a coal shed in Burlington House where Elgin himself confirmed they were suffering damage from damp. Almost as soon as Elgin got them home he was sniffing for a profit, trying to sell them to the British Government at a price they would not consider. It wasn't until Elgin's financial troubles escalated that he parted with them in 1816 for considerably less than what he had hoped to receive (he stated it was less than half the amount it cost to fund the project to remove/steal them).

I'm a History graduate and the British Museum is one of my favourite places in the UK. The Parthenon Marbles should not be there.

Am I supposed to take your word for it that you're a history graduate now that you have an interesting argument to make?

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Am I supposed to take your word for it that you're a history graduate now that you have an interesting argument to make?

Not at all. After all, if you told me you had a degree in History I'd laugh so much that I'd **** my pants.

Edited November 30, 2023 by canarydan23

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Not at all. After all, if you told me you had a degree in History I'd laugh so much that I'd **** my pants.

I wouldn't say it, as I don't have a degree in history.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I wouldn't say it, as I don't have a degree in history.

Honestly chap, that really doesn't need saying.

[sonyc 5,541]

21 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Why? Do you not think he's capable of recognising there are two sides to this discussion?

It's bad enough you're all so uncompromising in your standpoints. The fact you're all so uncompromisingly and reliably against your own country is what irritates and makes your politics so unattractive.

Funnily enough, Starmer explicitly suggested telling the Greek PM no during PMQs, but he suggested doing it as part of the meeting rather than calling the meeting off. Wasnt a bad point to be fair, but then he's a far cry from the bulk of his party and its supporters.

It was a joke LYB. 

I don't have strong feelings about it. But whenever I have in the past I've agreed with the position taken by Alice Roberts.

As for Dimi he is a left back and not a rightie😀

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Honestly chap, that really doesn't need saying.

It kind of does when you wrongly suggest I might say it.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It kind of does when you wrongly suggest I might say it.

I didn't suggest you might say it. I said "if" you said it. I could say "If I went for a pint with LYB I suspect he'd be a lot more amiable and reasonable than he is on here"; it doesn't mean for one second I'm suggesting we go for a pint. You read a lot of things that aren't there; do you think that might be one of the reasons why you're consistently wrong about almost everything?

However, I'm open-minded to having my mind changed on this. Like I said, the British Museum is one of my favourite places and the Parthenon Marbles are a hugely impressive exhibit; I could enjoy it without my conscience being pricked on my next visit.

So I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of the evidence that Elgin legally purchased the right to remove the marbles, or that had he not hacked pieces off the walls and bought them to the UK, then they would not be here to be observed today. If that evidence exists, I would be delighted to hear/see it as then there would be a very strong case for their removal. I assume there is some, given your strong public assertion earlier in this thread.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

7 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I didn't suggest you might say it. I said "if" you said it. I could say "If I went for a pint with LYB I suspect he'd be a lot more amiable and reasonable than he is on here"; it doesn't mean for one second I'm suggesting we go for a pint. You read a lot of things that aren't there; do you think that might be one of the reasons why you're consistently wrong about almost everything?

However, I'm open-minded to having my mind changed on this. Like I said, the British Museum is one of my favourite places and the Parthenon Marbles are a hugely impressive exhibit; I could enjoy it without my conscience being pricked on my next visit.

So I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of the evidence that Elgin legally purchased the right to remove the marbles, or that had he not hacked pieces off the walls and bought them to the UK, then they would not be here to be observed today. If that evidence exists, I would be delighted to hear/see it as then there would be a very strong case for their removal. I assume there is some, given your strong public assertion earlier in this thread.

My mistake. I wrongly assumed there was a point to the comment about laughing at it, based on the previous interesting comment instead of it just being you reverting to your usual p1ssy sh1thead self.

[canarydan23 4,060]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

My mistake. I wrongly assumed there was a point to the comment about laughing at it, based on the previous interesting comment instead of it just being you reverting to your usual p1ssy sh1thead self.

The point was you exhibit little to no evidence of having a history GCSE, never mind a degree. Hence why I'd laugh uncontrollably IF* you said you have one.

Still waiting on the evidence you're basing your opinion that Elgin purchased the marbles, by the way.

*not to be somehow construed as a suggestion of any plausibility or likelihood of

[dylanisabaddog 5,014]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

I've been praying that Dimi doesn't visit this part of the message board and sticks purely to the football section and fans view of his performance - otherwise I might fear a transfer request in the January window.

Edit: I was looking at the various threads last night about the Marbles and this Alice Roberts thread was interesting in the various comments. 

 

Could we please have more about Alice if you see anything? Asking for a friend... 

[PurpleCanary 5,586]

13 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

 I know you are broadly supportive of returning the marbles.  You look at the issue through the lens of righting some form of colonial wrong, but you are smart enough to realise why that argument doesn't quite work.

Although your thoughts in the actual issue are conflicted you do see the story as an opportunity at having  a pop at government and that makes you smile.

You'll be polite about how you say it and the post will be quite businesslike. You are not adverse to the idea that people will think you are educated and serious but wouldn't go as far as telling  the world about something like a PhD or a Cambridge education.

About right?

Very decent effort, BB, and I may use you in the future. I notice that though you think I would approach the subject from a broadly political viewpoint I would not go all swivel-eyed crazy. I appreciate that. But, no, my approach would be on cultural/heritage grounds.

Unlike some more portable examples on this thread, the Marbles were part of the fabric of a building. And a building created in the centre of Athens at arguably the height of Greek civilisation. The Marbles were literally as well as metaphorically integral to that particular building, which was and still is a great symbol for the world.

The Marbles belong there (and yes, I know it might have to be in a museum nearby) and only there. Just as one of the marvels of medieval art, the Veit Stoss altarpiece in Krakow Cathedral (from memory with faces drawn from local people), belongs there, even though the Nazis  had other ideas. Just as the stained glass and the reconciliation artwork in Coventry Cathedral belong there.

PS. Cambridge?

[dylanisabaddog 5,014]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

There is no evidence that Elgin paid anything to the Ottoman Empire for the removal of the marbles, you're making that part up. The British Museum claim that he was provided with a document from the Sultan that gave him permission to "remove pieces", but even that document, which suspiciously hasn't survived, was deemed ambiguous and largely interpreted as referring to pieces in the rubble and not anything that interfered with the walls of the structure. It did not permit the hacking away of the marbles with saws and mallets, as people present at the time confirmed happened.

Given the fact that many of the Parthenon Marbles are still in Athens, you are once again talking nonsense about them being safer in the UK. The majority of the destruction of the original marbles had already happened at the point of Elgin's removal.

The only know financial transaction is the one that Elgin received, but buying something from a thief does not make that property yours.

And the idea that this was some sort of preservation exercise is utterly laughable. They were dumped in a coal shed in Burlington House where Elgin himself confirmed they were suffering damage from damp. Almost as soon as Elgin got them home he was sniffing for a profit, trying to sell them to the British Government at a price they would not consider. It wasn't until Elgin's financial troubles escalated that he parted with them in 1816 for considerably less than what he had hoped to receive (he stated it was less than half the amount it cost to fund the project to remove/steal them).

I'm a History graduate and the British Museum is one of my favourite places in the UK. The Parthenon Marbles should not be there.

Thank you. Here is an article with a little more information. LYB won't like it because it's not from the Daily Mail

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/may/23/greece-rebuts-british-museum-claim-parthenon-marbles-were-removed-from-rubble

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Thank you. Here is an article with a little more information. LYB won't like it because it's not from the Daily Mail

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/may/23/greece-rebuts-british-museum-claim-parthenon-marbles-were-removed-from-rubble

It's disappointing that the British Museum would trot out something like this. Undoubtedly some bits were retrieved damaged from debris, but the Italian artist who headed up the removal team, Lusieri, stated himself that "I have been obliged to be a little barbarous".