Gunn

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,321]

Speaking of keepers, has Timmy made an appearance for Luton yet anyone know? 

[hogesar 9,676]

1 minute ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

God forbid anyone has a different opinion about a player. 

Opinions are fine but when they contradict cold hard facts it's not difficult to see that some are perhaps desperate to look at the complete wrong thing 😅

[Worthy Nigelton 1,049]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He was the best shot stopper in the championship last season, statistically. So those thinking he's not good enough would have hated any other goalkeeper in the league last season.

Just to show how nonsense this thread is.

It's not nonsense. He's 27 and has never managed to hold down a number one spot. There's a reason for that. He's one of only five goalkeepers to conceded 9 goals in a PL game out of God knows how many (tens of thousands?). He's never been in a team that's had a top half finish. His GA tally this year is again woeful so far. You're looking at one stat and ignoring a plethora of others.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,321]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Opinions are fine but when they contradict cold hard facts it's not difficult to see that some are perhaps desperate to look at the complete wrong thing 😅

Some maybe are clinging to anything to make sense of yesterday, and I for one will never blame a keeper for a result unless it's clearly them that's let the team down.

However, I don't rate him, never have rated him and possibly never will, although I'm happy for him to prove me wrong obviously... I just think he's an average at best keeper and will never be what a team at the very top of the division will be after, there's a reason no PL team or newly promoted team come looking for him. 

My opinion of his isn't about 1 game, it's as a whole. 

I'm sure he'll have decent career here in the champs but if somehow we managed to get up again (which I think is going to be a while before we trouble the PL again) we desperately need an upgrade. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by GodlyOtsemobor

[sgncfc 1,228]

Some very short memories on here. Andy Marshall became a decent enough keeper but in his first year was the sole reason we got relegated from the PL. Krul had some good games and was clearly a big dressing room presence but again cost us dearly with his various errors. Even the mighty Keelan made the occasional howler.

Gunn really is the least of our problems. 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,321]

1 minute ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

It's not nonsense. He's 27 and has never managed to hold down a number one spot. There's a reason for that. He's one of only five goalkeepers to conceded 9 goals in a PL game out of God knows how many (tens of thousands?). He's never been in a team that's had a top half finish. His GA tally this year is again woeful so far. You're looking at one stat and ignoring a plethora of others.

And even that stat is skewed because shot stopping stats are just that, how many of those shots were tame, straight at him, 25/30 yards out etc. 

How many of those saves were game saving saves, pulled out of no where, the type of saves you look at and go "how the hell did he just save that!"... I'd wager not many, if any. 

[hogesar 9,676]

Just now, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Some maybe are clinging to anything to make sense of yesterday, and I for one will never blame a keeper for a result unless it's clearly them that's let the team down. 

However, I don't rate him, never have rated him and possibly never will, although I'm happy for him to prove me wrong obviously... I just think he's an average at best keeper and will never be what a team at the very top of the division will be after, there's a reason no PL team or newly promoted team come looking for him. 

I'm sure he'll have decent career here but if somehow we managed to get up again (which I think is going to be a while before we trouble the PL again) we desperately need an upgrade. 

I dont think he's anything special, don't get me wrong. But I think he's plenty good enough for the Championship and he's kind of already proven that.

But this board has been interesting in general since the defeat - blaming those less culpable to save face on blaming favourites. We've seen so many bemoan Gibson yet it was Duffy who was individually culpable for up to 4 goals as much as anybody else, and would have been 5 had Gibson not saved his blushes in the second half again.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,321]

Just now, hogesar said:

I dont think he's anything special, don't get me wrong. But I think he's plenty good enough for the Championship and he's kind of already proven that.

But this board has been interesting in general since the defeat - blaming those less culpable to save face on blaming favourites. We've seen so many bemoan Gibson yet it was Duffy who was individually culpable for up to 4 goals as much as anybody else, and would have been 5 had Gibson not saved his blushes in the second half again.

Me too, so at least we agree there 🤣 I've said all along this thread that he's a decent run of the mill champs keeper and I'll stand by that. He's just not what i would expect from a Norwich number 1. 

I think the Duffy/Gibson argument is Gibson hasn't got any credit with supports after his god awful performances for us previously, where as Duffy has had a fairly decent start and looked like sorting the back line for us... I wonder how a Hanley/Duffy partnership would work, I prefer Duffy myself however I would happily admit he had a mare yesterday, as did the rest of the squad. 

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

30 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Jesus wept. Okay, he shipped 9 playing for Saints and was never seen again but we thought he's good enough for us. That good enough for you? 

Oh, or how about that he's in a back line that's conceded 17 in eight games?

Or last season in a team that finished 13th with parachute payments whilst shipping 57 in 46.

Or the Farke year in a team that finished 14th and shipped 60 in 46. 

There's the evidence.

However, that is still not my point. Why don't you give me some evidence how he's a top championship goalkeeper?

Not one of those are evidence of individual errors leading to goals, by Angus Gunn.

We conceded 57 goals when we won the Championship in 18/19, with Krul in goal.

We lost 7-0 to Chelsea with Krul in goal.

By your metrics Krul shouldn't have been anywhere near the first team.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He was the best shot stopper in the championship last season, statistically. So those thinking he's not good enough would have hated any other goalkeeper in the league last season.

Just to show how nonsense this thread is.

Shot-stopping's not the only part of the game and sure, Gunn had quite the positive balance on his expected goals last season. Agree that it's a very important part, but goalkeeping at that level is often about the intangibles. A commanding presence, capability in the air, some ability with the ball at feet - all key aspects of the modern game. And I'll always argue that a good goalie should be a natural leader. Not necessarily the captain, but he can see everything in front of him so should be a loud player who commands - or at least delegates it well.

So if something's askew in the team structure, the keeper should DEFINITELY be heavily involved in remedying it. Unfortunately, Angus seems a heck of a lot quieter than his dad and it's possible that the team suffers a bit in response.

[hogesar 9,676]

1 minute ago, Pyro Pete said:

Not one of those are evidence of individual errors leading to goals, by Angus Gunn.

We conceded 57 goals when we won the Championship in 18/19, with Krul in goal.

We lost 7-0 to Chelsea with Krul in goal.

By your metrics Krul shouldn't have been anywhere near the first team.

Exactly.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,049]

4 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

Not one of those are evidence of individual errors leading to goals, by Angus Gunn.

We conceded 57 goals when we won the Championship in 18/19, with Krul in goal.

We lost 7-0 to Chelsea with Krul in goal.

By your metrics Krul shouldn't have been anywhere near the first team.

Read the thread again. I've said he doesn't drop many clangers, but his stats are poor and there is a mountain of evidence that he's not good enough for a team looking to challenge at the top end of this league. He's just a bit meh and there are dozens of GKs like that.

And on Krul, he saved many penalties (some in a World Cup semi no less), was a regular Dutch international, a PL number one for many seasons, won two Championship titles and was part of our joint meanest ever back line. He had the pedigree when he joined us and proved it with the succes we had. Gunn is not in the same boat.

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

3 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

but his stats are poor and there is a mountain of evidence that he's not good enough

It's just that you can't find it.

Good luck with the law degree.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,049]

9 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

It's just that you can't find it.

Good luck with the law degree.

I've literally quoted it all to you further up. Good luck with the English Literature degree.

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

7 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

I've literally quoted it all to you further up. Good luck with the English Literature degree.

Your evidence that Gunn's record of goals conceded is no worse than Krul's?

That evidence?

[Worthy Nigelton 1,049]

17 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

Your evidence that Gunn's record of goals conceded is no worse than Krul's?

That evidence?

This evidence:-

One of only five PL keepers in tens of thousands to concede nine in one game

Had only one full season as a club's number one at the age of 27

GA in every season he's played is poor

Conceded 17 in eight games this year.

Never been in a team that's finished top half

Southampton paid 13 odd million to disregard him after only 20 odd games.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Worthy Nigelton

[Year of the tiger 54]

This is not a reaction to yesterday. I said last season although Gunn was playing quite well, our results were better with Krul. I don’t think Gunn marshalls his defence well. He is a decent shot stopper but some of his positional play is questionable.

[Conrad 170]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

He was the best shot stopper in the championship last season, statistically. So those thinking he's not good enough would have hated any other goalkeeper in the league last season.

Just to show how nonsense this thread is.

Not quite. Who is to say that any other goalkeeper would not have faced the same amount of shots and made the same amount of saves for us last season? 

[alex_ncfc 662]

2 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

There's a reason he's 27 and only ever been number one for an entire season once in his whole career (Farke's first year).

This season might be the second time he achieves that but that's not a given and it wouldn't surprise me if the lad from Millwall usurps him at some point this season.

Exactly, nearly 28 and barely 100 appearances to his name. Shocking for a keeper of that age which would suggest no one has ever seen him as a number 1. We've got a bang average keeper between the sticks who is here because his surname is Gunn, but as usual, so many are happy to accept mediocrity. 

[Jersey Canary 143]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

He was the best shot stopper in the championship last season, statistically. So those thinking he's not good enough would have hated any other goalkeeper in the league last season.

Just to show how nonsense this thread is.

There’s more to keeping than shot stopping. What about commanding the penalty area,, communicating with the back 4, distribution. 
 

For me he doesn’t command the area and give the back 4 confidence to be a top keeper. 

[hogesar 9,676]

Just now, Jersey Canary said:

There’s more to keeping than shot stopping. What about commanding the penalty area,, communicating with the back 4, distribution. 
 

For me he doesn’t command the area and give the back 4 confidence to be a top keeper. 

I dont disagree. But we are a championship club. We arent going to have a "top" goalkeeper.

[JamieNorfolk 62]

3 hours ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Speaking of keepers, has Timmy made an appearance for Luton yet anyone know? 

Not in the prem he hasn’t, I checked the other day - I think he played a full 90 in the Carabao, 3-2 win vs Gillingham.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,049]

32 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I dont disagree. But we are a championship club. We arent going to have a "top" goalkeeper.

He is not a top championship goalkeeper. That's my point.

And we should be aiming for that.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Ask yourselves this question. If Angus had Peter Schmeichel's gob, would he be a bigger help to the team?

In terms of basic shot stopping, I think he's a fair bit above average and is reliable in that he makes few mistakes. But he's a little bit short on some of the other aspects.

Edited September 24, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Robert N. LiM 4,373]

5 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Ask yourselves this question. If Angus had Peter Schmeichel's gob, would he be a bigger help to the team?

Or even his dad's. Gunny senior's sheer presence was his biggest attribute. Hope Angus can develop that side of his game. 

[Jersey Canary 143]

6 hours ago, hogesar said:

I dont disagree. But we are a championship club. We arent going to have a "top" goalkeeper.

I’ve just seen the highlights of the match and Gunn was to blame directly for the fourth goal. The shot was virtually at the centre of the goal. Very poor. 

[Jim Smith 2,321]

I generally rate and like Angus. I think keeper is the least of our worries.

However he had a bad day on Saturday. The majority of their goals were not particularly powerful shots or right in the corner and I feel he should be saving a few of those. Not sure why but he just didn’t seem in the zone at all. 

 

 

[Desert_Fox_2 6]

I was at the game and even without the benefit of replays it seemed that Gunn should have at least got a hand to the Aziz goal. However, the root cause of the first 5 goals we conceded was that our full backs were out of position and this meant that Plymouth could exploit or overload the space with our two slow centre backs. The other part of our game that drives me nuts is the amount of times that we concede after given the ball away needlessly. The first two goals arose from us trying to play the ball out of defence in tight positions. I have noticed that this generally happens close to the left back position. I wonder if anyone has done any statistical analysis which compares the goals that we gain from playing out from the back compared to the goals that we lose from these errors?

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

I hate all the nay-sayers coming out following a couple of difficult results and blaming everybody and anybody with their perfect understanding of what went wrong.

All the players and indeed the manager had a bad day. I don't blame Gunn (not the best nor the worst keeper) but personally I think the issues are currently 'all in the mind'. We played reasonably well overall against Leicester and lost. A draws on balance would of been fair. We thought Plymouth would be much easier, didn't take them seriously and then lost badly. Confidence shattered.

I suspect the loss of Sargent and then Barnes, hard working and leadership attitudes (I note Hanley is missing too) has a lot to do with the down-turn. We need people to change the mind set. A team doesn't go from brilliant to poor overnight because of the players change of ability but it has more to do with self belief, confidence and getting the job done. 

 

[horsefly 4,301]

16 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

This evidence:-

One of only five PL keepers in tens of thousands to concede nine in one game

Had only one full season as a club's number one at the age of 27

GA in every season he's played is poor

Conceded 17 in eight games this year.

Never been in a team that's finished top half

Southampton paid 13 odd million to disregard him after only 20 odd games.

It has been widely accepted that in the 9-goal Southampton defeat Gunn was not personally culpable for any of those goals, and indeed made several good saves. In the Championship season when he came to us on loan, he was pretty much faultless. Many very good keepers find it hard to get in the first team when they play for top sides, it's part and parcel of a goalkeeper's lot, competing for one spot in the team.