Southend United On The Brink.

[TIL 1010 4,791]

Apart from their HMRC worries the National League have now deducted them ten points.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66591344

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I did the Football to Amsterdam Cycle ride and shared a room, and a few Heinekens with Michael Markscheffel, a director of Southend. From what he told me about the club, even though they were a league club at that stage, their future was precarious. A succession of coaches had failed and the constant shuffling of players in and out for clubs at that level gives little chance of the solidity needed. Not only on the playing side but financially as well.

They still get between 6K and 8K for home matches and their two games this season have had nearly 6K despite the mess they are in.

[chicken 2,642]

And yet again, rather than be the solution, the football powers that be are simply being part of the problem.

Do they honestly think points deductions have anything other than a negative impact upon clubs that are financially struggling? They might as well be nailing the coffin together.

I get it when a club is racking up debts in order to put on a promotion bid... but when they are in dire straits? 

Football in England at least, is not going in a great direction off the field. For me, it goes right down to grass roots level. Whole thing needs a proper shake up. 

[Fen Canary 866]

17 minutes ago, chicken said:

And yet again, rather than be the solution, the football powers that be are simply being part of the problem.

Do they honestly think points deductions have anything other than a negative impact upon clubs that are financially struggling? They might as well be nailing the coffin together.

I get it when a club is racking up debts in order to put on a promotion bid... but when they are in dire straits? 

Football in England at least, is not going in a great direction off the field. For me, it goes right down to grass roots level. Whole thing needs a proper shake up. 

How do you determine the difference between racking up good and bad debts? What’s the difference between racking up debt for a failed promotion bid and racking up debt in order to try and avoid relegation from a league that’s “above your level” as it were? 

[chicken 2,642]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

How do you determine the difference between racking up good and bad debts? What’s the difference between racking up debt for a failed promotion bid and racking up debt in order to try and avoid relegation from a league that’s “above your level” as it were? 

One is spending beyond your means to try and achieve a level that at that time, is financially beyond your means. FFP was meant to prevent that but has been proven to be circumventable at times.

The other needs much more stringent checks and balances in place. It seems incredibly dubious to me, that owners that may have passed the fit and proper test, then are anything but. The result? The powers that be deduct points, relegate a club and potentially smash it into dust. Where does that leave the fans who have been able to do nothing but watch it happen, totally powerless?

You honestly think this system works? It should be relatively obvious as to whether a club has been at the hands of utter incompetence - at which point, why help push a club to destruction when it is bigger than dodgy ownership? 

[Newtopia 519]

Football is in a bad way, supporters drive for continuous improvement and seek owners who pay (gamble) for that improvement.  Whilst it is actually smoking mirrors with only the top few sides having any realistic chance of winning anything tangible.

Plenty of sides have gambled and lost after a short period of success.  Bolton, Leeds, Reading, Portsmouth, Leicester, Sunderland, Coventry, Birmingham, QPR, Middlesbrough, Charlton, and Derby, to name a few.

[essex canary 505]

I wonder how much the likes of recent Southend managers Kevin Bond, Sol Campbell and Phil Brown have received as redundancy payments etc. after their Club hierarchy has appointed them then decided under fan pressure that they are not the man for the job after all. Ring any bells?

The second strand is that then the Club expects financial support from the Council (ie. Taxpayers) for their new stadium. 

What the football industry needs to do is pay their own less and provide more for infrastructure and stadium development. Ring any bells?

A levy on the Premier League would help.

[dylanisabaddog 4,983]

12 hours ago, chicken said:

And yet again, rather than be the solution, the football powers that be are simply being part of the problem.

Do they honestly think points deductions have anything other than a negative impact upon clubs that are financially struggling? They might as well be nailing the coffin together.

I get it when a club is racking up debts in order to put on a promotion bid... but when they are in dire straits? 

Football in England at least, is not going in a great direction off the field. For me, it goes right down to grass roots level. Whole thing needs a proper shake up. 

I'm afraid the football authorities have no choice with points deductions. It's in the rules and other clubs that could claim to have suffered would probably sue if the rules weren't applied. 

There probably isn't a solution to the problem but saying it's not their fault and letting them off doesn't work. 

The problem as I see it is that the fit and proper person test just doesn't work and unfortunately there are some chancers involved in football who are there for their own benefit and not the benefit of the club. 

[A Load of Squit 5,221]

9 hours ago, essex canary said:

I wonder how much the likes of recent Southend managers Kevin Bond, Sol Campbell and Phil Brown have received as redundancy payments etc. after their Club hierarchy has appointed them then decided under fan pressure that they are not the man for the job after all. Ring any bells?

The second strand is that then the Club expects financial support from the Council (ie. Taxpayers) for their new stadium. 

What the football industry needs to do is pay their own less and provide more for infrastructure and stadium development. Ring any bells?

A levy on the Premier League would help.

Tinnitus, finding a cure would stop the bell ringing sound you seem to be suffering from.

[Bert 236]

Like our owners Ron Martin is a basket case of an owner, his ownership of the club has seen terminal decline 

[Badger 2,412]

The issue highlights the Januslike quality of some football fans who want their clubs to borrow to be "ambitious" and the "get to the next level" without recognising that it is highly risky and fails more often than it succeeds, sometimes with disastrous consequences.

Very few fans complain when the excess spending takes place even though they are sensible enough in most cases to recognise that it is unsustainable for most clubs. All clubs have this section, we have the "bedsheet boys" and some fans on this message board that have expressed similar views.

[essex canary 505]

9 minutes ago, Badger said:

The issue highlights the Januslike quality of some football fans who want their clubs to borrow to be "ambitious" and the "get to the next level" without recognising that it is highly risky and fails more often than it succeeds, sometimes with disastrous consequences.

Very few fans complain when the excess spending takes place even though they are sensible enough in most cases to recognise that it is unsustainable for most clubs. All clubs have this section, we have the "bedsheet boys" and some fans on this message board that have expressed similar views.

Reflect to on their regular goalkeeper in the first half of the last decade who made his career there, played a key part in Brentford's upward curve and at one point was touted as a future England goalkeeper. Now just turned 30, sits on the bench at a Premier League Club doubtless earning far more than he did when playing. I wonder if he can help out?

 

[Badger 2,412]

2 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Reflect to on their regular goalkeeper in the first half of the last decade who made his career there, played a key part in Brentford's upward curve and at one point was touted as a future England goalkeeper. Now just turned 30, sits on the bench at a Premier League Club doubtless earning far more than he did when playing. I wonder if he can help out?

 

I can't imagine why he would. As a student I once worked for Debenhams but didn't lift a finger to help them when they were going bust! 😁

[dylanisabaddog 4,983]

31 minutes ago, Bert said:

Like our owners Ron Martin is a basket case of an owner, his ownership of the club has seen terminal decline 

Regardless of anyone's view of our current owners,  they can't be described as basket cases and our club is most certainly not in terminal decline. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[essex canary 505]

7 minutes ago, Badger said:

I can't imagine why he would. As a student I once worked for Debenhams but didn't lift a finger to help them when they were going bust! 😁

I once worked for a Local Authority, I still pay my Council Tax.

There seem to be some examples of ex top level footballers financially supporting smaller clubs eg. Salford.

[Bert 236]

4 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Regardless of anyone's view of our current owners,  they can't be described as basket cases and our club is most certainly not in terminal decline. 

Binner 

[dylanisabaddog 4,983]

10 minutes ago, Bert said:

Binner 

Brilliant. Probably the post of the year so far. 

[essex canary 505]

10 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Regardless of anyone's view of our current owners,  they can't be described as basket cases and our club is most certainly not in terminal decline. 

Indeed. We are not in the same position as Southend as our stadium, unlike theirs, was redeveloped between 1978 and 2004. In addition our financial base is broader than many other clubs. 

On the other hand what is the difference between Southend and say Brentford or Brighton in terms of their trajectory this century?

[MrBunce 245]

15 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I did the Football to Amsterdam Cycle ride and shared a room, and a few Heinekens with Michael Markscheffel, a director of Southend. From what he told me about the club, even though they were a league club at that stage, their future was precarious. A succession of coaches had failed and the constant shuffling of players in and out for clubs at that level gives little chance of the solidity needed. Not only on the playing side but financially as well.

They still get between 6K and 8K for home matches and their two games this season have had nearly 6K despite the mess they are in.

With respect to Mr Markscheffel, that misses the elephant in the room - that Southend has been owned by one of the worst owners in football league history, Ron Martin. This has been going on for nearly 15 years with, at various times, players, HMRC and creditors not being paid. There have been numerous points deductions, court cases, late accounts and last minute scrambling. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by MrBunce
Probably went a little too far

[dylanisabaddog 4,983]

5 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Indeed. We are not in the same position as Southend as our stadium, unlike theirs, was redeveloped between 1978 and 2004. In addition our financial base is broader than many other clubs. 

On the other hand what is the difference between Southend and say Brentford or Brighton in terms of their trajectory this century?

How much debt do those clubs carry between them?  Think it was around £600m last time I looked. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[GenerationA47 758]

12 hours ago, chicken said:

One is spending beyond your means to try and achieve a level that at that time, is financially beyond your means. FFP was meant to prevent that but has been proven to be circumventable at times.

The other needs much more stringent checks and balances in place. It seems incredibly dubious to me, that owners that may have passed the fit and proper test, then are anything but. The result? The powers that be deduct points, relegate a club and potentially smash it into dust. Where does that leave the fans who have been able to do nothing but watch it happen, totally powerless?

You honestly think this system works? It should be relatively obvious as to whether a club has been at the hands of utter incompetence - at which point, why help push a club to destruction when it is bigger than dodgy ownership? 

Nobody likes the system. However for me Fen Canary was rightly pointing out that the first description can apply to staying in the same division or league you’re already in.

Relegation doesn’t normally lead to  destruction (it may mean director pay cuts & owner’s asset value shrinking…), but spending above your means to avoid it might in the long run.

[Badger 2,412]

2 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

How much debt do those clubs carry between them? 

The most recent accounts are 21-22.

In these, Brentford's net debts are £46.1 million - with parachute payments this is entirely mangeabe.

Brighton's net debts are £391million. Their owner, Tony Bloom is a committed fan +  a generous benefactor to several charitable causes but I'm not sure how sustainable this level of debt is, particularly on a continuing basis. From what I know of him, I think he is the sort of owner I would dream of at City. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,983]

10 minutes ago, Badger said:

The most recent accounts are 21-22.

In these, Brentford's net debts are £46.1 million - with parachute payments this is entirely mangeabe.

Brighton's net debts are £391million. Their owner, Tony Bloom is a committed fan +  a generous benefactor to several charitable causes but I'm not sure how sustainable this level of debt is, particularly on a continuing basis. From what I know of him, I think he is the sort of owner I would dream of at City. 

Latest accounts show the Brentford debt is £62m.

The problem with clubs the size of Brentford, Brighton and Norwich is what happens when they are relegated. That will almost certainly happen eventually. The other problem is what happens when the benefactor dies, as with Leicester City. 

The Brighton debt is absolutely ridiculous for a club of its size. It won't end well. 

[shefcanary 2,448]

20 minutes ago, GenerationA47 said:

Relegation doesn’t normally lead to  destruction (it may mean director pay cuts & owner’s asset value shrinking…), but spending above your means to avoid it might in the long run.

Reflecting on what has happened to several clubs in recent times, relegation after points deductions and / or liquidation of clubs is not the end of the story and can result in really positive "kicks up the ****" for the local community and their fans. It also adds a degree of realism to the hopes and aspirations of those fans. I wouldn't want clubs to go through the heartache however, especially a club like ours, but hopefully it is getting a clearer message through to both clubs and the relevant football authorities that change is long overdue.

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The problem as I see it is that the fit and proper person test just doesn't work and unfortunately there are some chancers involved in football who are there for their own benefit and not the benefit of the club. 

Whilst I agree the test didn't work in the past, there is real evidence that this test is beginning to bite now. Locally here in Sheffield, the Blades hierarchy have had two prospective owners veto'd by the relevant authorities. The recent Leeds takeover went through a very long period of review and interrogation before it was allowed, even the Hollywood stars at Wrexham had to reassure the authorities in more than just words to finalise their takeover. Who knows, maybe even the current protracted shenanigans at our own club are being delayed in part by EFL due diligence? 

Whatever there is a sense that HM Govt have applied significant pressure to league authorities now (probably under pressure from the Treasury / HMRC than from other external factors) to police club ownership more closely. It is a little too late for some clubs, but welcome all the same.

[essex canary 505]

17 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Who knows, maybe even the current protracted shenanigans at our own club are being delayed in part by EFL due diligence? 

 

Brilliant sentence!

Geoffrey Watling was right that Clubs should have a broader base than dominant individuals and families. Exeter lead the way. Then again I had better ask @chicken for his view.

 

[essex canary 505]

1 hour ago, MrBunce said:

With respect to Mr Markscheffel, that misses the elephant in the room - that Southend has been owned by one of the worst owners in football league history, Ron Martin. This has been going on for nearly 15 years with, at various times, players, HMRC and creditors not being paid. There have been numerous points deductions, court cases, late accounts and last minute scrambling. 

A case can certainly be made that Ron Martin isn't very good but this surely goes a little too far. Like some others he may well have taken on a Club because nobody else would. He seems to have run a £1million deficit each year in an attempt to keep up with the Joneses in the belief that success was just around the corner. There overall deficit seems to be around £18 million compared to our £118 million wage bill in the PL. There are a few other Clubs around who have flown on the seats of their pants at times.

[duke63 545]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Latest accounts show the Brentford debt is £62m.

The problem with clubs the size of Brentford, Brighton and Norwich is what happens when they are relegated. That will almost certainly happen eventually. The other problem is what happens when the benefactor dies, as with Leicester City. 

The Brighton debt is absolutely ridiculous for a club of its size. It won't end well. 

Brentford does not have any net debt. 
 

I trawled through most of the EPL clubs on Companies House the other day. The only two EPL clubs that are solvent that I could find were Arsenal and Brentford. 
All the others are effectively insolvent and only propped up by their wealthy owners. 
Chelsea net debt will surpass £1 billion when their next accounts are filed. 
 

It’s a disaster waiting to happen. 

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

58 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Reflecting on what has happened to several clubs in recent times, relegation after points deductions and / or liquidation of clubs is not the end of the story and can result in really positive "kicks up the ****" for the local community and their fans. It also adds a degree of realism to the hopes and aspirations of those fans. I wouldn't want clubs to go through the heartache however, especially a club like ours, but hopefully it is getting a clearer message through to both clubs and the relevant football authorities that change is long overdue.

Whilst I agree the test didn't work in the past, there is real evidence that this test is beginning to bite now. Locally here in Sheffield, the Blades hierarchy have had two prospective owners veto'd by the relevant authorities. The recent Leeds takeover went through a very long period of review and interrogation before it was allowed, even the Hollywood stars at Wrexham had to reassure the authorities in more than just words to finalise their takeover. Who knows, maybe even the current protracted shenanigans at our own club are being delayed in part by EFL due diligence? 

Whatever there is a sense that HM Govt have applied significant pressure to league authorities now (probably under pressure from the Treasury / HMRC than from other external factors) to police club ownership more closely. It is a little too late for some clubs, but welcome all the same.

🤣😅😂😅🤣😆

[dylanisabaddog 4,983]

18 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Brentford does not have any net debt. 
 

I trawled through most of the EPL clubs on Companies House the other day. The only two EPL clubs that are solvent that I could find were Arsenal and Brentford. 
All the others are effectively insolvent and only propped up by their wealthy owners. 
Chelsea net debt will surpass £1 billion when their next accounts are filed. 
 

It’s a disaster waiting to happen. 

Brentford owe Matthew Benham £60m

https://swissramble.substack.com/p/brentford-finances-202122

[shefcanary 2,448]

8 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Brentford owe Matthew Benham £60m

https://swissramble.substack.com/p/brentford-finances-202122

Indeed there is good debt and there is " bad debt". I also can't believe that Arsenal have managed to pay back all the cash they borrowed for the construction of the Emirates Stadium already without becoming beholden to some other "benefactor"!