Kenny McLean Most Under appreciated player of recent Times

[king canary 7,681]

37 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

We fell apart last season without him and I suspect the wheels will fall off if we lose him for any length of time this. Thank God he has 90 mins in his legs every game as we don't seem to have any alternative in the squad who can do all the stuff Kenny can.

Has already been outstanding this season. First name on the teamsheet.

 

Gibbs feels like his backup but I agree I'm not confident he can fill the role. Saying that I didn't think Kenny could but in this system it seems to work so maybe he could. 

I think the main improvements we're seeing are system based rather than personal. So we'll see how it holds up if a key player has to miss matches. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by king canary

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,805]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Awh, your desperation not to be wrong knows no bounds.

The entire team was poor under Smith hence Smith losing his job, in the end.

Under Wagner Kenny was good and we were on course for playoffs till he got injured.

But you've said all along that a team can't finish top 6 with Kenny as a regular player.

You got it wrong exponentially with 2 classy title wins, then you can't even really claim last season because he wasn't there for the end of the season 😊

Wonder if this season will be a hattrick and you come up with another reason why you're actually right somehow?

You saw us move being neck and neck with Burnley and Sheff Utd in October to 20 and 15 pts behind them within 2/3 months either side of the world cup...our midfield was weak , slow and consistently overrun . He was part of and complicit in that and to say otherwise is blinkered

Peolple are looking at McLeans performances last season through some incredibly yellow tinted glasses

Edited August 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[shefcanary 2,494]

14 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

This is what I mean damning the guy with faint praise. We have won  the championship three times in my life time Kenny McLean has been an ever present when fit in two of them. He was never the main man in midfield it was always McLean plus the dross of 21/22 or in 19/20 with journeyman Tettey, out of there depth Trybull or Vrancic.

Hmmm, so now we slag Tettey to justify McLean?! If you read the multitude of threads on where our next CDM is coming from Tettey was well suited to the role he played, the consensus being Kenny is not better than Tettey as a CDM. He is perfectly fine in a championship double pivot though. Faint praise I accept, but it is the only praise he justifiably deserves. Great at getting our team promoted, but lost against the big boys of EPL. If we go up, my view is we have to replace him with better.

Granted I do have one reservation against that view - we have never seen him play alongside Sara in a double pivot in the EPL.  It may be that I will change my view of on his ability to hold his own in that league, much as I did with Tettey! But let's see if we get promoted first!

[hogesar 9,776]

5 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Hmmm, so now we slag Tettey to justify McLean?! If you read the multitude of threads on where our next CDM is coming from Tettey was well suited to the role he played, the consensus being Kenny is not better than Tettey as a CDM. He is perfectly fine in a championship double pivot though. Faint praise I accept, but it is the only praise he justifiably deserves. Great at getting our team promoted, but lost against the big boys of EPL. If we go up, my view is we have to replace him with better.

Granted I do have one reservation against that view - we have never seen him play alongside Sara in a double pivot in the EPL.  It may be that I will change my view of on his ability to hold his own in that league, much as I did with Tettey! But let's see if we get promoted first!

As far as I know, I don't know a fan that wouldn't want a McLean upgrade in the prem.

What I took issue with was him being the target in the Prem seasons for starting games. That's the managers decision. Or Webber for not recruiting better. They tried, but it turned out neither PLM or Normann could be trusted by the manager and for me their performances backed that up.

[Indy 3,323]

He’s done ok in a team who are playing well, I have to say he’s played his part and deserves the praise alongside others, under appreciated no not really.

To accept the real change has been Barnes who holds the ball up and allows attackers and midfielders time to link up, he’s taking pressure off the midfield.

It should be noted that to praise a CDM we have only played one really good side thus far and we conceded four goals in that game!

[shefcanary 2,494]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

As far as I know, I don't know a fan that wouldn't want a McLean upgrade in the prem.

What I took issue with was him being the target in the Prem seasons for starting games. That's the managers decision. Or Webber for not recruiting better. They tried, but it turned out neither PLM or Normann could be trusted by the manager and for me their performances backed that up.

And I didn't target him per se, in the EPL, I was very frustrated that our manager / SD / Board etc. could not see that Kenny starting / being first on the team sheet was effectively accepting relegation. Kenny will be good for getting us promoted, good as an option on the bench in the EPL, perhaps a good option in a double pivot in the EPL, but at 31 next season if we go up and don't have a better replacement we are in for Groundhog day once again.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,865]

14 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Kenny is fine for the Championship and will help get us promoted. BUT, and it is a very BIG BUT, we will never survive a season in the EPL if he is our main midfielder. That also has been proven, twice! 

I think this sums it up, and also probably explains why he has been unfairly made the scapegoat. 

McLean is an excellent Championship midfielder and has proven that consistently over many years. But he has also struggled in the Premier League, which is why he has been criticised so much, but it's ridiculous to blame him for the fact that we failed to upgrade on two separate occasions. 

Our results have been better with him in the team in four of his five years here, and I think his importance was really shown at the back end of last season when he got injured (although the general lack of experience in the team was arguably the main factor).

[Ulfotto 644]

I would throw Bradley Johnson into this debate. I maybe wrong but  considered a Norwich legend by some definitely held in higher esteem than Kenny. But why Johnson was distinctly average in two premier league seasons much like McLean before having one very good season in a playoff team in the championship. To my point Kenny is much under appreciated.

[Ian 1,136]

16 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

And I didn't target him per se, in the EPL, I was very frustrated that our manager / SD / Board etc. could not see that Kenny starting / being first on the team sheet was effectively accepting relegation. Kenny will be good for getting us promoted, good as an option on the bench in the EPL, perhaps a good option in a double pivot in the EPL, but at 31 next season if we go up and don't have a better replacement we are in for Groundhog day once again.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but I'd suggest it's probably true of 90% of our current squad. I'm not sure why McLean seems to be singled out for more criticism than others. I would also argue that it's about the sum of the parts rather than the individual players; we did survive under Lambert with (I think from memory) Johnson in midfield.

[ZLF 276]

He his playing well so far this season, but there is a little revisionist history for the injury absence,   he played the full games against huddersfield, stoke and sheff u last season where both he and the team were extremely poor.

The next game was blackburn away, which was the first game without kenny, where the midfield was it's most dynamic for weeks and we deservedly and unexpectedly won.  Sadly that was the match where we lost the remaining experience of both Hanley & Gibson. whether that run could hace continued if they both or one of them stayed is clearly unknown.

It was the collective injury of all three, not one individually, removing the experience as well as being left with specialist CB, taking lungi taken out if that dynamic midfield,  that saw us implode in those final 5 games.

The big question is how the squad will fare should we lose key players this season, it feels we're are better placed now.

Anyway, it's running far more smoothly atm, and kenny is playing solid role in the current success of the team.

[Conrad 179]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

As far as I know, I don't know a fan that wouldn't want a McLean upgrade in the prem.

What I took issue with was him being the target in the Prem seasons for starting games. That's the managers decision. Or Webber for not recruiting better. They tried, but it turned out neither PLM or Normann could be trusted by the manager and for me their performances backed that up.

Personally I would like an upgrade on all our players, should we ever get promoted again. Unlikely as any upgrade is. 

[hogesar 9,776]

47 minutes ago, ZLF said:

He his playing well so far this season, but there is a little revisionist history for the injury absence,   he played the full games against huddersfield, stoke and sheff u last season where both he and the team were extremely poor.

The next game was blackburn away, which was the first game without kenny, where the midfield was it's most dynamic for weeks and we deservedly and unexpectedly won.  Sadly that was the match where we lost the remaining experience of both Hanley & Gibson. whether that run could hace continued if they both or one of them stayed is clearly unknown.

It was the collective injury of all three, not one individually, removing the experience as well as being left with specialist CB, taking lungi taken out if that dynamic midfield,  that saw us implode in those final 5 games.

The big question is how the squad will fare should we lose key players this season, it feels we're are better placed now.

Anyway, it's running far more smoothly atm, and kenny is playing solid role in the current success of the team.

Actually I'd argue your Blackburn comments are far more revisionist.

We only had 39% of the ball and a lower xG than Blackburn. Those who'd slated Kenny all season were loving the result having not really acknowledged the fortune vs the performance.

I said back then I'd be surprised if we didn't miss Kenny in future performances as we couldn't maintain possession (worse than previously with Kenny). Of course,  that materialised.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,805]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Actually I'd argue your Blackburn comments are far more revisionist.

We only had 39% of the ball and a lower xG than Blackburn. Those who'd slated Kenny all season were loving the result having not really acknowledged the fortune vs the performance.

I said back then I'd be surprised if we didn't miss Kenny in future performances as we couldn't maintain possession (worse than previously with Kenny). Of course,  that materialised.

So the evidence is there to say we didnt miss McLean in a win at Blackburn but in the subsequent games where we then had to play the rest of the season without Hanley and Gibson and and makeshift centre half pairing of Omadamidele and Sorenson , where our collapse was ...(which suggests this was the real reason?).

As I said ...blinkered

[hogesar 9,776]

4 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

So the evidence is there to say we didnt miss McLean in a win at Blackburn but in the subsequent games where we then had to play the rest of the season without Hanley and Gibson and and makeshift centre half pairing of Omadamidele and Sorenson , where our collapse was ...(which suggests this was the real reason?).

As I said ...blinkered

Yes, you're incredibly blinkered because you've said on numerous occasions that a team can't finish in the play offs with McLean as a main midfielder even though we've done it twice.

You are so consistently wrong on it I don't know where to start.

And if one win where we see less than half of the ball is evidence of us not missing McLean then perhaps our wins against Millwall x2, Birmingham x2, Hull, Coventry x2, Preston, Swansea, Stoke, Blackpool, Preston are all examples of how important he is to the side?

Maybe I should list every result with McLean in the side since he joined? 

Your bizarre desperation to be right about McLean requires you to constantly play this mental gymnastics to suit your over inflated ego, where you know better than Farke, Smith and now Wagner.

[Robert N. LiM 4,571]

Ironically if we had a DM with anything like the tenacity of @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary, McLean would be nowhere near the team.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,805]

...yet you wont admit to McLean being poor as part of a poor midfield for the most part of last season prior to his injury?

  ..as if him having remiained fit wouldve got us into the playoffs??

..it was injuries to our central defence that did for us...and our failure to address the central defensive mid situation all season. We no less needed one in January when it became clear Hayden wasnt going to be fitcall season than we did at the start of the season. We didnt address it.

...didnt think it would be long to reach for the XG...bore off

Edited August 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[norfolkngood 1,092]

11 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yes, you're incredibly blinkered because you've said on numerous occasions that a team can't finish in the play offs with McLean as a main midfielder even though we've done it twice.

You are so consistently wrong on it I don't know where to start.

And if one win where we see less than half of the ball is evidence of us not missing McLean then perhaps our wins against Millwall x2, Birmingham x2, Hull, Coventry x2, Preston, Swansea, Stoke, Blackpool, Preston are all examples of how important he is to the side?

Maybe I should list every result with McLean in the side since he joined? 

Your bizarre desperation to be right about McLean requires you to constantly play this mental gymnastics to suit your over inflated ego, where you know better than Farke, Smith and now Wagner.

i have told you before what Professionals think in the game about Mclean they love him !

My friend very well respected in the game still involved been in the game 40 years as player and backroom staff  etc  ( not at NCFC now )

His words when i said i do not get Mclean

" every team needs a Kenny , Very professional training / match day ,never late never moans ,

will do anything for the team , play any position , put body on the line , will try harder than anyone to improve ,

he did not have a bad word about kenny "

How can i as only a fan argue with that !!

 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by norfolkngood

[BigFish 1,988]

There are personalities who just like to moan, who want to slate our own players and who will rather double down when things are going well, almost hoping things turn for the worse, rather than admit they were wrong. They move in crowds rather than think for themselves, clutch at random facts they think support their argument because generally they know very little about football. This leads them to identify scapegoats and nothing will shake them from their received opinion. They will wait until the next inevitable down side.

The McLean haters are exactly this. It doesn't matter that he has been a constant across three managerial regimes. It doesn't matter that he plays a key role in Wagner set-up that most fans are starting to get excited about. It doesn't matter that he is the only one in the squad that brings to the team what he does.

[Robert N. LiM 4,571]

Back in the 90s, it was impossible for commentators to mention ManU LB Dennis Irwin without calling him underrated, so much so, that he almost became overrated. I think something similar has happened with Kenny.

He's been criminally underrated (and scapegoated) on this board for so long (as @BigFish has just eloquently said), that people have (rightly, in my view) jumped to his defence, and have perhaps now overplayed their hand a touch. He's nowhere near as bad as some of his detractors say, not quite as good as some of his biggest fans are now arguing. In short, he's a really reliable Championship player; we'd be hoping to upgrade on him were we to make it back to the PL at any point.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Robert N. LiM
This post is so obviously correct I nearly finished it with 'End of'.

[BigFish 1,988]

1 hour ago, ZLF said:

It was the collective injury of all three, not one individually, removing the experience as well as being left with specialist CB, taking lungi taken out if that dynamic midfield,  that saw us implode in those final 5 games.

Although if you believe some on here those were the three worst players in the team, should have improved without them.

[Nuff Said 5,187]

16 hours ago, king canary said:

Take it up with those folks I guess.

On the flip side I notice the 'the end of last season has shown how underrated Hanley is' takes have stopped since we've replaced him with relative ease, so swings and roundabouts.

 

Would we have conceded 4 to Southampton if Hanley was playing? I suspect not, but it’s unprovable. 

[norfolkngood 1,092]

5 minutes ago, BigFish said:

There are personalities who just like to moan, who want to slate our own players and who will rather double down when things are going well, almost hoping things turn for the worse, rather than admit they were wrong. They move in crowds rather than think for themselves, clutch at random facts they think support their argument because generally they know very little about football. This leads them to identify scapegoats and nothing will shake them from their received opinion. They will wait until the next inevitable down side.

The McLean haters are exactly this. It doesn't matter that he has been a constant across three managerial regimes. It doesn't matter that he plays a key role in Wagner set-up that most fans are starting to get excited about. It doesn't matter that he is the only one in the squad that brings to the team what he does.

i think also the things kenny does as a model professional brings to the club that people do not see ,

i imagine showing youngster how to be professional ,how to act maybe a quiet word in the ear of some ,

how to train , how to prepare the whole package is a lot more than a match day ,

they see Kenny for a couple of hours in his working week the whole package is a lot more by what i am told 

[shefcanary 2,494]

Just now, norfolkngood said:

i think also the things kenny does as a model professional brings to the club that people do not see ,

i imagine showing youngster how to be professional ,how to act maybe a quiet word in the ear of some ,

how to train , how to prepare the whole package is a lot more than a match day ,

they see Kenny for a couple of hours in his working week the whole package is a lot more by what i am told 

"how to point"

Which, seriously, is one of the reasons why he draws so much flack - he points a lot but seemingly without purpose. "Keep it to yourself man!" 🙂 

[Nuff Said 5,187]

17 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

...yet you wont admit to McLean being poor as part of a poor midfield for the most part of last season prior to his injury?

  ..as if him having remiained fit wouldve got us into the playoffs??

..it was injuries to our central defence that did for us...and our failure to address the central defensive mid situation all season. We no less needed one in January when it became clear Hayden wasnt going to be fitcall season than we did at the start of the season. We didnt address it.

...didnt think it would be long to reach for the XG...bore off

This poor midfield - was Sara part of that? So he’s sh1t too then?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,805]

1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

This poor midfield - was Sara part of that? So he’s sh1t too then?

For the most part our midfield deptartment as a unit wasnt good enough last season..particularly the defensive aspect of that...of which McLean was very much part of.

Sara obviously showed flashes of brilliance from an attacking point of view , i.e Millwall, Blackburn away , hence his POTS award.

...but I suspect you knew all of this already

Try again

[Barham Blitz 664]

Kenny is fine - good Championship midfielder, acceptable Premiership midfielder.  He is probably a 7 out of 10 in pretty much every facet of the game - decent passer, decent tackler, decent engine, decent in the air, scores the odd goal - which is why he has been played as a single pivot, half of a double pivot, as a box to box and as a #10 - but that consistent 7/10 means that he is consequently not a regular gamechanger so it essentially offers grist to the mill of whichever side of the Kenny argument you want to come down on.  

I will say that in the current tactical set up he is pretty much invaluable given the dearth of other options in his position mind - much as I rate both Sorenson and Gibbs for slightly differing reasons I do think Kenny has made that specific position very much his own for the moment.

I certainly rate him in the Championship and would keep him in the Premiership but for the reasons above he does need good players around him to make a functional midfield at a higher level.  He hasn't had that in either of his forays into the Premiership so I think it is a bit harsh to judge him on that: IMO he wouldn't stand out either positively or negatively at a lower mid-table Premiership side but would be a perfectly functional team member.

[Crafty Canary 508]

If Kenny was a dog would he be a pointer?

[Robert N. LiM 4,571]

1 minute ago, Crafty Canary said:

If Kenny was a dog would he be a pointer?

And a terrier, and a retriever. He's just so versatile 

[Robert N. LiM 4,571]

Just now, Robert N. LiM said:

And a terrier, and a retriever. He's just so versatile 

But he wouldn't be a great Dane. That's Lungi. 

[Barham Blitz 664]

Just now, Crafty Canary said:

If Kenny was a dog would he be a pointer?

Oh, this deserves it's own thread.  Assign each of the current squad their canine familiar ...