Have to say Tzolis is looking much fitter and sharper

[Google Bot 3,385]

Just now, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Maybe you’ll be proven right in years to come. But I’m confident you won’t, sadly. 

I'm not even making a point to that extent though, my point is that you can't write the guy off as being unable to play in England as he's not reached the point in his career of continual gametime to display his worth as he's so young, and his skillset is on the technical level where you have to work a position to get the best out of him.

I'm not saying that you create that position now, more of a demonstration of what he could be in the future.  And unfortunately he's found himself in the position where he's not so interchangeable with our wide players.  I think he's similar positionally to Fassnacht, but he couldn't match what he does physically.  So there's no way in for him in this squad.

I personally think he's got very good talent but I'm not pushing the belief that he's going to achieve it or be this amazing player, more that the lack of gametime is very frustrating.  And this is based on the fact that he was on a good trajectory previously and as a club we've bought him in and stalled it completely.

If people don't agree with my assessment of the situation then fine, I'm in the minority, and that doesn't bother me in the slightest.  I just want to be very clear in the point I'm making however.

[Fuzzar 1,705]

31 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Well, it's always the minority who lack comprehension based on that logic.  So the answer is me, clearly.

Never been a fan of following the heard, so I'll take that.

Is that why you spelt it with an a? 

[TheGunnShow 6,080]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

I mean, no ****, Wagner would play a Farke developed £30m valued Emi in this squad.  But that's not the comparison being made.  If we signed a 21 year old Tzolis who'd continued getting gametime in Europe for the past 2 years he'd be more of the developed player ready to come into this team as Emi was.

People need to remember that Tzolis is younger now than what Emi was when he joined us.   And all we've done as a club is stall his career as he's been passed through 4 different coaches, and soon to be a 5th, and yet people writing him off when he was 19/20 - it's crazy.

Sure, but I'm saying petulance aside, Buendia was always willing to work uncommonly hard off the ball - and ultimately Buendia hit the ground running somewhat. He needed that petulance channelling more effectively, but the potential for sheer workload was always there.

[Google Bot 3,385]

21 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

Is that why you spelt it with an a? 

Oh, however you spell it, the guy who served under Thatcher... Never been a fan of following him, far too punk for that.

[shefcanary 2,503]

1 hour ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Well Canos is now an EPL footballer in a successful side. 

Canos was loaned out to Olympiacos last season, we saw how ****e they were last week! And this close season, Canos hasn't made any appearances in Brentford's pre-season games and apparently is not even in their EPL training squad. He is with an EPL club, but not in their side.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,312]

9 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Canos was loaned out to Olympiacos last season, we saw how ****e they were last week! And this close season, Canos hasn't made any appearances in Brentford's pre-season games and apparently is not even in their EPL training squad. He is with an EPL club, but not in their side.

He got plenty of game time in their first season, but fair point. I wasn’t aware of his current situation. 

[Google Bot 3,385]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

He needed that petulance channelling more effectively, but the potential for sheer workload was always there.

Again, he was older, Tzolis could've played a further 2 years in European competition before we can even start to compare him vs Emi when they both walked into the club.  Which is the entire point I'm making when people are choosing to flat-line write him off.

This is Tzolis at 18:

This is Tzolis at 19:

0:10, 0:28, 0:56, 1:31, 1:35, 2:24, 3:02 all examples of him pressing the ball, maybe you don't see it?

People asking what I see in the lad, just look what he does at 1:31, it's Buendia-esque to dispossess a player, and then play the ball at that angle and weight, turn and move up the field.  He's 19 here and showing this kind of maturity and calmness.

This is the only example of the raw player we bought in across an entire match, and it was on us to develop him further from this point.

Instead we'll watch him being pushed into the hands of a 5th manager, and people writing him off as done nothing, lazy, fat... whatever.  As I see it, we carried the responsibility for his progression, and he's gone backwards under our watch.

Others may disagree and put the blame solely at the players feet, fair enough, perhaps I have too much empathy for the individual.  But I don't consider it a bad quality if I have, even if the majority tell me otherwise.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Google Bot

[TheGunnShow 6,080]

41 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Again, he was older, Tzolis could've played a further 2 years in European competition before we can even start to compare him vs Emi when they both walked into the club.  Which is the entire point I'm making when people are choosing to flat-line write him off.

This is Tzolis at 18:

This is Tzolis at 19:

0:10, 0:28, 0:56, 1:31, 1:35, 2:24, 3:02 all examples of him pressing the ball, maybe you don't see it?

People asking what I see in the lad, just look what he does at 1:31, it's Buendia-esque to dispossess a player, and then play the ball at that angle and weight, turn and move up the field.  He's 19 here and showing this kind of maturity and calmness.

This is the only example of the raw player we bought in across an entire match, and it was on us to develop him further from this point.

Instead we'll watch him being pushed into the hands of a 5th manager, and people writing him off as done nothing, lazy, fat... whatever.  As I see it, we carried the responsibility for his progression, and he's gone backwards under our watch.

Others may disagree and put the blame solely at the players feet, fair enough, perhaps I have too much empathy for the individual.  But I don't consider it a bad quality if I have, even if the majority tell me otherwise.

I'm not saying I can't see a player in there, indeed I already said earlier on that if Tzolis had PP's pace and workrate we wouldn't be having this discussion. And I never said Tzolis doesn't press, I simply said Buendia was excellent at it. Just because Buendia was a superb presser doesn't automatically mean a player who is less effective at it is "lazy", that's just Manichean thinking. Go and compare tackle statistics and you'll see what I mean re. Buendia's performance in a press.

I think this is a good loan. He really needs games, but we've also got Rowe and Springett in the wings ('arf), and they also need games. The good thing here is that Tzolis looks fitter than he has before, and you'd hope he's in a position where he can show what he can do in this loan on a far more consistent basis.

Edited August 4, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Google Bot 3,385]

10 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I'm not saying I can't see a player in there, indeed I already said earlier on that if Tzolis had PP's pace and workrate we wouldn't be having this discussion

But he hasn't got their pace, hence why we are having this discussion.  And what I'm opposed to is this notion of people writing him off even at 19 purely as we spent money for his 'future' development and everyone jumped on the 'now'.

I don't expect to educate people on that and what they should or shouldn't like as a player, but rather raising the subject of being empathetic to how he went from the trajectory and hype in Europe, and how that's panned out since coming here.

And yet here we are with people still calling him fat, lazy, and lack of ability to play in this country.  Hand on heart, I don't know if I'm the fool or see something others are unable to, hence my interest in this discussion and to mull the whole scenario out and hear others opinions.

But yet, I still maintain that we've mismanaged him, and that's backed up with the past two seasons on and off the pitch as a whole.

[BigFish 1,988]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

They were Norwich City players. So let's judge them in that context.

In that context, they were exceptional for us as @Creedence Clearwater Couto says.

We had in all of those players talents that were beyond the majority of the squad and they were proven to do so either at another club or with us. So of course, if you have an exceptional talent in the context of the norwich city squad then building around that makes sense. Emi and Pukki were a level above the entirety of our squad so Farke built everything around them in reality.

As for Buendia, you're not looking at anything close to the right stats to evaluate his counter-pressing.

You set the bar for exceptional at a very low level my friend, perhaps you should take off the canary coloured specs off for a moment and imagine what the opinion would be of those not invested in the club. Still that wasn't the point, which was a poster on here wrote that exceptional players can play in any system. No real disagreement with that. But this argument then went **** about face towards a totally different argument that we had changed the system to accommodate these players because they were exceptional. Well to start with, objectively, they weren't exceptional. They rocked up at Carrow Road because they weren't good enough for anything better. What we remember is that we built systems that made the absolute most of their skills and minimised their weaknesses. There were prices to pay elsewhere in the side for this, which is the price you pay for good rather than exceptional players. Happy days yes, and happy memories. They certainly rank amongst the better players of NCFC if judged by their time at the club.

[Google Bot 3,385]

2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Well to start with, objectively, they weren't exceptional. They rocked up at Carrow Road because they weren't good enough for anything better. What we remember is that we built systems that made the absolute most of their skills and minimised their weaknesses.

The craziest part is this notion of the club paying €11 million for a 19 year old and not thinking they were exceptional enough to build around.  And rather than questioning the management, it's the player at fault.

[hogesar 9,808]

19 minutes ago, BigFish said:

You set the bar for exceptional at a very low level my friend, perhaps you should take off the canary coloured specs off for a moment and imagine what the opinion would be of those not invested in the club.

Canary coloured specs are exactly what's required when we're talking about exceptional players FOR NORWICH CITY. 

No-one said they're exceptional in the broader term. We aren't talking Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta, Haaland....whoever.

We are talking in the context of Norwich City. The players mentioned quickly proved themselves to be our best players, by some margin compared to others.

Anyway, this is all a pointless exercise, the best move Tzolis could get was to the second tier in German Football so I don't think anyone else thinks he's a superstar in the waiting either.

[Terminally Yellow 2,492]

13 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

The craziest part is this notion of the club paying €11 million for a 19 year old and not thinking they were exceptional enough to build around.  And rather than questioning the management, it's the player at fault.

The player has to show the attitude and willingness to make it a success, just as much as the club have to provide the right environment and conditions for it to succeed. In my view, Tzolis has never shown me anything that made me feel like he wanted to be here.

That's not excusing the club's role in this, it's just been a failure all round. 

[Monty13 2,268]

2 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

The player has to show the attitude and willingness to make it a success, just as much as the club have to provide the right environment and conditions for it to succeed. In my view, Tzolis has never shown me anything that made me feel like he wanted to be here.

That's not excusing the club's role in this, it's just been a failure all round. 

He’s not a 19 year old in a normal job, he’s an asset the club paid enormous sums (by our standards) for.

You simply can’t leave finding the attitude and willingness up to the individual in those circumstances.

A good manger wouldn’t leave it up to them in a normal job IMO but that’s a separate point.

[Google Bot 3,385]

7 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

In my view, Tzolis has never shown me anything that made me feel like he wanted to be here.

Oh really?  That's interesting, so did you feel this from day 1, such as watching him play vs Bournemouth?

Or do you think it all stems from the Liverpool penalty incident perhaps?

I've never really got that vibe from him, I do see a very introverted character who's not going to get carried away with excitement, and like many players of his build I feel one of his strengths is the ability to look disinterested, but shift gears to his advantage when required.

Those elements combined I think can cast a negative appearance to his game.  But for me, this all comes down to management to understand the player they've paid a lot of money for, and to keep them topped up with live minutes and create an interest and investment into the squad.

If I was an English lad walking into a Greek team and being overlooked for less experienced Greek players who can banter with the coaches better, I think I'd need some additional support from their management.  But again, maybe I'm being over emphatic to an individual.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Google Bot

[BigFish 1,988]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Canary coloured specs are exactly what's required when we're talking about exceptional players FOR NORWICH CITY. 

No-one said they're exceptional in the broader term. We aren't talking Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta, Haaland....whoever.

We are talking in the context of Norwich City. The players mentioned quickly proved themselves to be our best players, by some margin compared to others.

Anyway, this is all a pointless exercise, the best move Tzolis could get was to the second tier in German Football so I don't think anyone else thinks he's a superstar in the waiting either.

.........that's not exceptional is it?

[The Real Buh 3,492]

An all time Norwich City footnote, this guy.

Will be discussed in pubs for years to come, right after Ricky Van Wolfswinkle.

"Gather round everyone and let me tell you of a footballer that was so fat and useless and so slow that it became genuinely funny to not only us as fans, but to himself"

[shefcanary 2,503]

14 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

management to understand the player they've paid a lot of money for,

Er, again, didn't we once hear from Webber along the lines of when scouting for players they do a lot of tests, not only physical but also sociological including asking around friends, family and previous coaches, to find players that can fit within the team without a lot of hard work at Colney - oven ready so to speak. Tzolis is not the only one by any means who appears to have been signed who doesn't fit the "mould" of a "Norwich player".

More **** from Webber ...?

[Terminally Yellow 2,492]

16 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Oh really?  That's interesting, so did you feel this from day 1, such as watching him play vs Bournemouth?

Or do you think it all stems from the Liverpool penalty incident perhaps?

I've never really got that vibe from him, I do see a very introverted character who's not going to get carried away with excitement, and like many players of his build I feel one of his strengths is the ability to look disinterested, but shift gears to his advantage when required.

Those elements combined I think can cast a negative appearance to his game.  But for me, this all comes down to management to understand the player they've paid a lot of money for, and to keep them topped up with live minutes and create an interest and investment into the squad.

If I was an English lad walking into a Greek team and being overlooked for less experienced Greek players who can banter with the coaches better, I think I'd need some additional support from their management.  But again, maybe I'm being over emphatic to an individual.

I take that from the times I've seen him play. I wasn't at Bournemouth. Or Liverpool. Of his 13 games last season, I saw 10 of them, either in person or on TV. I see a player who doesn't put in the same graft as, for example, Onel. While I'm far from Onel's biggest fan, I do think if Tzolis had Onel's work rate things could be different. 

I take it as well from the Youtube interview that went around in which he implied his poor performance was because he was played out of position. This despite statistical data showing him not to have played there. 

Finally I take it from three managers, each of whom have now decided he's not to be involved in their squads. I doubt that's because of a lack of talent. 

[hogesar 9,808]

27 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Er, again, didn't we once hear from Webber along the lines of when scouting for players they do a lot of tests, not only physical but also sociological including asking around friends, family and previous coaches, to find players that can fit within the team without a lot of hard work at Colney - oven ready so to speak. Tzolis is not the only one by any means who appears to have been signed who doesn't fit the "mould" of a "Norwich player".

More **** from Webber ...?

Nah, just that you can't get every signing right no matter who you are or what you do. You can do all those test and have a billion pound transfer budget and still get more wrong than right, which plenty of clubs over the past 10 years evidence.

 

[Google Bot 3,385]

49 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I saw 10 of them, either in person or on TV. I see a player who doesn't put in the same graft as, for example, Onel. While I'm far from Onel's biggest fan, I do think if Tzolis had Onel's work rate things could be different. 

I just see them as different types of players, Onel has to graft as it's his main asset and how he makes the team.  For me, an efficient player lets the ball do the work.

So personally, I wouldn't use that to define if a player wants to be at this club or not.  I do appreciate why others would though.

If it turns out that in several years time we hear that Tzolis never wanted to be at the club then great shout.  Anything is possible, and would be a more valid reason for him being put to the back vs the likes of Idah, Springett & Rowe.

[Terminally Yellow 2,492]

1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

I just see them as different types of players, Onel has to graft as it's his main asset and how he makes the team.  For me, an efficient player lets the ball do the work.

So personally, I wouldn't use that to define if a player wants to be at this club or not.  I do appreciate why others would though.

If it turns out that in several years time we hear that Tzolis never wanted to be at the club then great shout.  Anything is possible, and would be a more valid reason for him being put to the back vs the likes of Idah, Springett & Rowe.

Fair enough, your opinions are well reasoned, and I respect that 👍

[Dr Greenthumb 753]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Nah, just that you can't get every signing right no matter who you are or what you do. You can do all those test and have a billion pound transfer budget and still get more wrong than right, which plenty of clubs over the past 10 years evidence.

 

I see comments like this and always picture Manchester United. Their transfers are always really good or really terrible

[hogesar 9,808]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

.........that's not exceptional is it?

In the context of Norwich City Football Club, yes it is.

[BigFish 1,988]

18 minutes ago, hogesar said:

In the context of Norwich City Football Club, yes it is.

Even in that context it doesn't really apply, all the players mentioned had limitations and we can argue all day over the relative merits of other favorite players. The argument was plain silly. First it was you don't need to change the system for exceptional player. Then it was we changed the system because these players were exceptional. Even you must be able to see the contradiction here.

[hogesar 9,808]

29 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Even in that context it doesn't really apply, all the players mentioned had limitations and we can argue all day over the relative merits of other favorite players. The argument was plain silly. First it was you don't need to change the system for exceptional player. Then it was we changed the system because these players were exceptional. Even you must be able to see the contradiction here.

I don't know, it wasn't me making the original point.

[BigFish 1,988]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

I don't know, it wasn't me making the original point.

Np, @hogesar I was just triggered by the inconsistency of the argument and some hyperbolic player assessments (negative on Tzolis, positive on others) by some posters. FWIW Wagner wasn't going to pick him because he doesn't fit the template, which I think is a shame. So he might as well go. I think it is an approach that might well work but I don't think it is going to be pretty.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,312]

18 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Np, @hogesar I was just triggered by the inconsistency of the argument and some hyperbolic player assessments (negative on Tzolis, positive on others) by some posters. FWIW Wagner wasn't going to pick him because he doesn't fit the template, which I think is a shame. So he might as well go. I think it is an approach that might well work but I don't think it is going to be pretty.

You’re turning something so simple into something it isn’t. 

100%, Hoolahan, Huckerby, Pukki and Buendia would all start in a Wagner side. 

[norfolkngood 1,095]

12 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

You’re turning something so simple into something it isn’t. 

100%, Hoolahan, Huckerby, Pukki and Buendia would all start in a Wagner side. 

They would all get into Wagner side 100 %,

after some of the comments regarding players by Wagner 

Hucks would be made into a RB Hoolahan would be the missing CDM ,Pukki GK , Buendia CB 

[canarybubbles 1,953]

5 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Again, he was older, Tzolis could've played a further 2 years in European competition before we can even start to compare him vs Emi when they both walked into the club.  Which is the entire point I'm making when people are choosing to flat-line write him off.

This is Tzolis at 18:

This is Tzolis at 19:

0:10, 0:28, 0:56, 1:31, 1:35, 2:24, 3:02 all examples of him pressing the ball, maybe you don't see it?

People asking what I see in the lad, just look what he does at 1:31, it's Buendia-esque to dispossess a player, and then play the ball at that angle and weight, turn and move up the field.  He's 19 here and showing this kind of maturity and calmness.

This is the only example of the raw player we bought in across an entire match, and it was on us to develop him further from this point.

Instead we'll watch him being pushed into the hands of a 5th manager, and people writing him off as done nothing, lazy, fat... whatever.  As I see it, we carried the responsibility for his progression, and he's gone backwards under our watch.

Others may disagree and put the blame solely at the players feet, fair enough, perhaps I have too much empathy for the individual.  But I don't consider it a bad quality if I have, even if the majority tell me otherwise.

OK, I know it was only Bournemouth reserves and so on, but look at those highlights and imagine that players who are now rated ahead of him, such as Idah and Placheta and Springett, could in a million years take a game by the scruff of the neck in the way that Tzolis did in that game.

How the hell did we manage to drag down that player in the Bournemouth game to the sad, anxious shell that he has become?