World-class Academy

[Davidlingfield 65]

12 minutes ago, hogesar said:

We turned down £20 million + in January for Omobamidele,

At least, according to Webber we did.....

[hogesar 9,836]

Just now, keelansgrandad said:

Its been two seasons since we sacked Farke. So one season is not part of this algorhythm.

We keep hearing about £20M for AO. We heard it about Max, and we heard it about Todd.

And I do not use other clubs as a yardstick. I am only concerned about mine. And the simple fact is we have gone backwards since we sacked DF. Who sacked him? And why isn't he taking responsibility? Saying I have made mistakes is not enough. What mistakes and how costly were they?

What does he need to say to take responsibility? So far he has said:

"It's on me"

"I take full responsibility. Not anyone else, not the fans. It's me".

"We've not been good enough."

"I don't have a problem with the fans singing Webber Out. After that last run of 11 games I'd have probably done the same"

"We've looked and analysed at all the things that have gone wrong, and hopefully fans see us rectifying that in the coming weeks and our signings should create a bit of excitement, as well as other bits that will come out from the club"

"100% I've got signings wrong. Probably wrong more than right to be completely honest but that's the same for most people in my position. Recruitment is the hardest part of the job to get right, there is no exact science".

 

There's more, but you probably should use other clubs as a yardstick otherwise you're holding everyone at the club to some impossible level where you seem to think if we're not producing a constant flow of Aarons, Godfrey and Lewis's every year, we're failing. It's completely unrealistic and the biggest clubs in world football aren't capable of it.

[hogesar 9,836]

Just now, Davidlingfield said:

At least, according to Webber we did.....

Well, people have spent all weekend criticising him for being too honest and open so it'd be a new turn to now retract all that and call him a liar instead.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

What does he need to say to take responsibility? So far he has said:

"It's on me"

"I take full responsibility. Not anyone else, not the fans. It's me".

"We've not been good enough."

"I don't have a problem with the fans singing Webber Out. After that last run of 11 games I'd have probably done the same"

"We've looked and analysed at all the things that have gone wrong, and hopefully fans see us rectifying that in the coming weeks and our signings should create a bit of excitement, as well as other bits that will come out from the club"

"100% I've got signings wrong. Probably wrong more than right to be completely honest but that's the same for most people in my position. Recruitment is the hardest part of the job to get right, there is no exact science".

 

There's more, but you probably should use other clubs as a yardstick otherwise you're holding everyone at the club to some impossible level where you seem to think if we're not producing a constant flow of Aarons, Godfrey and Lewis's every year, we're failing. It's completely unrealistic and the biggest clubs in world football aren't capable of it.

So he can get signings wrong but DF gets the sack? Slightly off piste but relevant to me. I resigned from the Labour Party because Starmer says a lot but nothing concrete. Webber is the same.

Edited May 22, 2023 by keelansgrandad

[hogesar 9,836]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not denying the academy and facilities can help convince a player they want to join us but for me they aren't players that we've 'developed' so to speak. Sunderland did most of the work with Mumba in my view. We're putting the polish on but I'd guess he's spent more time with our first team than in our academy since he joined. Maddison is particularly egregious as I'd wager he played more times for Coventry's first team than he did for any Norwich academy side.

I agree we've not developed from "traditional youth" but we can't say we've not developed them. 

For example, Maddison played plenty of times for Coventry. But did we not develop him from a £3 million Norwich punt to a £25 million Leicester top 10 Prem player? Even in the first team, I thought Farke in particular was very good at developing and improving young players. 

[hogesar 9,836]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

So he can get signings wrong but DF gets the sack?

So when you said take responsibility, you simply mean someone sack him. If people just said that it would save me having to go through the motions.

 

[king canary 7,714]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I agree we've not developed from "traditional youth" but we can't say we've not developed them. 

For example, Maddison played plenty of times for Coventry. But did we not develop him from a £3 million Norwich punt to a £25 million Leicester top 10 Prem player? Even in the first team, I thought Farke in particular was very good at developing and improving young players. 

I'm not saying we've not developed them, I'm saying our academy had **** all to do with it.

To me Maddison is no more an academy graduate that Buendia was. Both improved and developed in the first team but if you're charting the success of our academy in churning out players for the first team I find it disingenuous to include players who were poached off other teams aged 18/19, especially when those players already had first team experience elsewhere.

[Google Bot 3,395]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I'm not saying we've not developed them, I'm saying our academy had **** all to do with it.

Our academy has everything to do with bringing young hopefuls in, wasn't it something like 24% of first team minutes come from academy players?

As a young player, you're presented with those figures and you're shown the facilities - Whether we grow a player from 12 years old or have the facilities and options to persuade them in their final months or years, does it matter?  Youth is multi-faceted and not a single path.

[kenfoggo 250]

21 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

Oh, here comes another ‘stick’ to beat Webber with…..

No stick needed to beatWebber. Just watching the last two seasons of the dross served up as entertainment under his watch. 

[king canary 7,714]

1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

Our academy has everything to do with bringing young hopefuls in, wasn't it something like 24% of first team minutes come from academy players?

As a young player, you're presented with those figures and you're shown the facilities - Whether we grow a player from 12 years old or have the facilities and options to persuade them in their final months or years, does it matter?  Youth is multi-faceted and not a single path.

My point is those stats are a bit massaged in my view.

I don't think Liam Gibbs is an academy graduate frankly. He was 18 when he joined, had first team football under his belt at Ipswich and was training with the first team last season too. To me having spent 6 months in our academy when you've spent 4 or 5 years in someone else's means he isn't a Norwich academy graduate.

I'm aware not everyone will agree but there we go.

[Davidlingfield 65]

19 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Well, people have spent all weekend criticising him for being too honest and open so it'd be a new turn to now retract all that and call him a liar instead.

I didn't actually call him a liar, but I am certainly questioning the truth of it as it doesn't pass the logic test to me, based on

(i) Webber's history of selling players when the financial position deems it necessary (as it does now) - e.g. Pritchard

and

(ii) whether the player would actually have justified such a valuation, although I guess it could have included add ons etc.

So, yes maybe it could be 100% accurate but it does create doubts in my mind.

[Google Bot 3,395]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think Liam Gibbs is an academy graduate frankly.

Not being rude, but what you think doesn't matter.  We're looking at the most encouraging figures to present to future academy players.  If you're a young player and you have 2-3 clubs you're looking around, the one that is saying that a quarter of their first team is made up with people like yourself it's very significant.

Combing that with the facilities and focus on academy is really a massive attraction for players, you may say that the academy does nothing for such players who are near ready for first team action - But think of the bigger picture on why they come here, that's all part of the setup.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Google Bot

[king canary 7,714]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Not being rude, but what you think doesn't matter.  We're looking at the most encouraging figures to present to future academy players.  If you're a young player and you have 2-3 clubs you're looking around, the one that is saying that a quarter of their first team is made up with people like yourself it's very significant.

Combing that with the facilities and focus on academy is really a massive attraction for players, you may say that the academy does nothing for such players who are near ready for first team action - But think of the bigger picture on why they come here, that's all part of the setup.

HOW DARE YOU WHAT I THINK IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTEEEEERS!

Ahem. Yeah I agree to be honest, it doesn't matter, it is just a personal bugbear of mine.

[KeiranShikari 1,492]

3 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Our academy has everything to do with bringing young hopefuls in, wasn't it something like 24% of first team minutes come from academy players?

As a young player, you're presented with those figures and you're shown the facilities - Whether we grow a player from 12 years old or have the facilities and options to persuade them in their final months or years, does it matter?  Youth is multi-faceted and not a single path.

His point is that players like Maddison are probably being included in that 24% figure when they were at most polished by our academy. 

I don't think it matters too much though. Signing players at 17 or 18, giving them a bit of time in the u23s before they make the first team is clearly a strategy we've gotten right over the last decade. Having a quality facility and cvoaching will obviously make it easier to poach players going forward. 

I'd also add that if we've only recently gotten to a such a high standard it's not something we're going to see the fruits of for years, in regards to truly club grown players. 

[Mason 47 1,435]

For me it's fairly simple. Was the player brought in for an immediate role in the first team, or does he have significant playing time in any given first team setup up already? If so, shouldn't be considered a product of our academy.

Maddison, no. Lots of first team football at Coventry. Liam Gibbs, yes- he moved to be part of our u23 squad and had only a single smelly appearance to his name.

Ultimately I think it's more a semantic issue than anything else, 'academy product' being fairly liberally used to denote 'young player that has started to come through at first team level that isn't called Tzolis'. And on that note we're doing pretty good.

[Google Bot 3,395]

11 minutes ago, KeiranShikari said:

His point is that players like Maddison are probably being included in that 24% figure when they were at most polished by our academy. 

Oh 100% it is, no doubt, but that's what we should be doing, is it not?

Dressing up our figures in such a way is an advantage that pays dividends down the road.  Even if our academy never produced a player from school age, but did enable us to pinch bargains in their final year of development it's still doing a job.  Even if it's façade of sorts.

Which it's not, of course.

We have a mix of players, and that's what's so great about the system.

Equipped to fit and grow any player, any age, regardless of their current stage of development.  We shouldn't be judging the academy on how 'pure' each graduate is as the scope has been established to be as wide reaching as possible.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Google Bot

[tsj1999 19]

"world class academy" but our u21s are below average and our u18s are the worst in the country?

[Google Bot 3,395]

1 minute ago, tsj1999 said:

"world class academy" but our u21s are below average and our u18s are the worst in the country?

Omobamidele, Rowe, Gibbs and Kamara all below average U21 players?

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

14 minutes ago, tsj1999 said:

"world class academy" but our u21s are below average and our u18s are the worst in the country?

The worst of the top tier league yes. But the top tier league includes a North and South division and about 24-25 teams total by my recollection. So more accurately, we are in the top 25 of u18 academy teams in the country. That is about right based on our first team and size no? It’s effectively the premier league of u18 academies. Agree it’d be nice to do better but let’s not bash the lads who are rubbing shoulders with some giant clubs and cities with huge numbers to draw from, let alone having to attract these lads with dreams of guardiola and klopp and riches and success etc to sleepy Norfolk taking what the big boys don’t hoover up first of course.

[canarydan23 4,155]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Well, people have spent all weekend criticising him for being too honest and open so it'd be a new turn to now retract all that and call him a liar instead.

I think Kings Lynn players will think he's a liar. Well, apart from the ones that get paid £1k a week.

He also came out with that bullsh*t about Gibbs looking confused when fans were heckling and moaning at the full time whistle after a win. Total ****. Every win at Carrow Road was greeted with a loud cheer this season. Often a cheer of relief at how we'd managed to get a win after an abject performance, but at no point were there grumbles, boos, heckles or moans as the players left the pitch after a victory. He just made it up.

[Mason 47 1,435]

Also RE the results side of things. I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure I've read a piece on the academy that explains that level of football is much more about education as opposed to results.

[tsj1999 19]

15 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

The worst of the top tier league yes. But the top tier league includes a North and South division and about 24-25 teams total by my recollection. So more accurately, we are in the top 25 of u18 academy teams in the country. That is about right based on our first team and size no? It’s effectively the premier league of u18 academies. Agree it’d be nice to do better but let’s not bash the lads who are rubbing shoulders with some giant clubs and cities with huge numbers to draw from, let alone having to attract these lads with dreams of guardiola and klopp and riches and success etc to sleepy Norfolk taking what the big boys don’t hoover up first of course.

u21 are probably the 18th best in the country which isnt world class. u18s finished bottom by a huge amount two years in a row and were knocked of the youth cup by burnley who arent even in the same tier! the u18s won 4 games all season 

[tsj1999 19]

1 minute ago, Mason 47 said:

Also RE the results side of things. I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure I've read a piece on the academy that explains that level of football is much more about education as opposed to results.

i get that but when the academy is being beaten by everyone in the higher league and then the likes of west brom and nottingham forest who dont have world class academy? then at u18 level tall the other teams in the same tier got more points. sack the u18 manager

[Capt. Pants 4,336]

I get the positives but in terms of succession planning we didn't appear to have a young central defender deemed good enough to step up when we had the injury crisis at the end of the season.

A conveyor belt is fine in terms of generating funds but it would be good to see that on the pitch on a regular and consistent basis.

[Google Bot 3,395]

Just now, Capt. Pants said:

I get the positives but in terms of succession planning we didn't appear to have a young central defender deemed good enough to step up when we had the injury crisis at the end of the season.

It was more the fact that we didn't have two young CBs to come in when Hanley and Gibbo got crooked in such a short time. 

AO is certainly capable, but being paired with a central midfielder was the downfall, not helped by lack of experience around the defensive midfield position, McLean was picking up so much slack in the team before being injured.

We have Tomkinson who looked pretty good in the cup match, so we do have succession there.  But there's still a 10 year age gap between our main and the replacements even if Tomkinson was recalled, it's quite a jump.  But also unfortunate.

[nutty nigel 7,686]

It seems to me Mr Fruit is the only one who knows about our academy teams and Hoggy is the only one who listened to the interviews. 

It's that old perspective again...

As for Starmer - he's aiming for a middle ground. That half-way house that folk yearn for but doesn't exist. Looking like if I vote at all I'll vote green.

Edited May 22, 2023 by nutty nigel

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,923]

Norfolk isn't, and never has been, a hotbed of footballing talent. Larger cities where there are more kids crammed into a smaller area, often in less developed areas, generally have a far better production line in terms of both quality and quantity. The best kids need to be constantly challenged, and a large area such as Norfolk with a low population density cannot match the bigger cities in terms of providing that. 

Bethnal Yellow and Green, who unfortunately doesn't post on here any more, once wrote in depth about this. Also, there was an excellent article on The Athletic recently about how Middlesbrough have been using London as their main scouting area for Under 18s for the past few years. They bring the best kids from London up to Middlesbrough at 16-18 years of age and that's their main source of youngsters who may one day reach the first team, and it has been successful with several of them having played for the first team in the last year or two. Local youngsters are kept on predominantly to make up the numbers.

I think that's also what we're going for. Obviously we still have youth sides from a young age in the hope that a Cantwell comes through every now and again, but the pick of our Under 18s recently grew up in London, like Rowe, Kamara, Springett and Omotoye, or Ireland, such as Idah and Omobamidele. 

Our Academy is as much about providing a finishing school for these lads rather than developing them from eight years old.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[Capt. Pants 4,336]

8 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

It was more the fact that we didn't have two young CBs to come in when Hanley and Gibbo got crooked in such a short time. 

AO is certainly capable, but being paired with a central midfielder was the downfall, not helped by lack of experience around the defensive midfield position, McLean was picking up so much slack in the team before being injured.

We have Tomkinson who looked pretty good in the cup match, so we do have succession there.  But there's still a 10 year age gap between our main and the replacements even if Tomkinson was recalled, it's quite a jump.  But also unfortunate.

Tomkinson is 21, 2 months older than Omo and was sitting on the bench in League 2.

Omo seems on the verge of a £20m transfer, whereas I suspect Jonathan will be loaned out again.

It's a shame we don't have an in-house replacement at least for the bench.

 

[nutty nigel 7,686]

Being able to get the best players is the whole point of being Cat 1.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

So when you said take responsibility, you simply mean someone sack him. If people just said that it would save me having to go through the motions.

 

Not at all. Yes, I would have kept DF and sacked him. Whatever goes on the rest of the club, the team is the most important. And the club and especially we, were let down by Webber and the Board in that first season in the EPL. We can't get rid of the board and I wouldn't advocate that. But we can replace the man in the middle.