Wagner isn't any better than Smith.

[Keith Scott 256]

3 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

To hit on Wagner is ridiculous. What can he do right now? It does highlight that Smith wasn't necessarily the issue too. although he didn't do himself favours with his outbursts.

Coach and set up the team better would be a start. The idea that he should get a free pass is laughable. Tactically he has been clueless, regardless of the players available to him. Worse than Smith.

Still it goes without saying he is well down the food chain in terms of problems with this shambles of a club.

All the best.

Big Keith Scott.

[Indy 3,349]

Indeed much better, the squad isn't as bad as people make out either, having watched the recorded game after getting home, we again should have been 2 up before they scored with their first chance of the game.

I must admit the squad is not fit enough, something aimed at the Smith regime and it does show but also too many variables in this squad, too many players here are used to and comfortable with losing, not enough real leaders to change the game on the pitch, players knowing they are leaving in five games so no really fully focused, too many injuries again and last our loans for two seasons have been abysmal, they just haven't even tried in a city shirt.

It's going to take time for this squad to be bought out of this losing is OK mentality it isn't if you just capitulate, regardless of which players are on the pitch, the lack of response is awful to going behind, we don't come from behind to win very often anymore, go behind and then it gets comfortable for the opposition.

Wagner is a decent manager but the club has a serious attitude stemming from the boardroom level of "that's football" and it has filtered down to the fans, the amount of people including Wagner critical for the atmosphere inside the ground just shows it's far from the fortress it once was.

I don't know the answer but Webber sacking won't help in my opinion, it has to change before this summer at the very top, there has to be a focus from new ownership and a structure under it to remove this comfortable two friendly couples running a business without culpability.

[The Real Buh 3,493]

19 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Same group of players that have won 2 Championships at a canter?

> Not remotely the same team

> People get older, everyone else develops and gets better. If you stay still you’ll get worse.

[The Real Buh 3,493]

19 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I love how you've successfully identified the group of players as the problem and then prescribed changing everything other than the group of players as the solution.

It’s called finding root cause 

[mrdi 382]

17 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Obvious reasons tbh.

Elevated self-opinion on your part? Fair enough pal. 

Having an opinion doesn’t make someone ‘deluded’; being convinced that things are ‘facts’ does. 

For what (little) it’s worth, I like Wagner. I like his ethos of hard work, he has a good character. I just don’t fully believe he’s got the tactical nous or adaptability required to make us consistent, which is what we need so desperately. I’m also not convinced his rolling contract makes his time here anything other than a stopgap for us, and us for him. He may go of his own volition, or a the decision may be made for him - especially if Webber cuts/is cut loose. 

Of course, my preference is he stays, turns things around (which will unquestionably take a hefty overhaul of this squad) and is a success. As I said, I like the guy and his limitations don’t make him a bad manager by any stretch. But I have a niggling feeling there’ll be a parting of ways - largely as it looks as though his primary objective this season will have been missed. 

Pretty sure that’s far from me being ‘deluded’. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by mrdi

[CDMullins 456]

2 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

> Not remotely the same team

> People get older, everyone else develops and gets better. If you stay still you’ll get worse.

At the start of this season we had;

Krul

Aarons

Hanley

Gibson

Giannoulis

Mclean

Sorensen

Hernandez

Dowell

Cantwell

Pukki

 

Alongside this - Andy O, Byram, Placheta, Idah and Angus

All of which have won 1 if not 2 Championships.

Yes we miss Buendia but one player doesn't make a team.

[CDMullins 456]

11 minutes ago, mrdi said:

Elevated self-opinion on your part? Fair enough pal. 

Having an opinion doesn’t make someone ‘deluded’; being convinced that things are ‘facts’ does. 

For what (little) it’s worth, I like Wagner. I like his ethos of hard work, he has a good character. I just don’t fully believe he’s got the tactical nous or adaptability required to make us consistent, which is what we need so desperately. I’m also not convinced his rolling contract makes his time here anything other than a stopgap for us, and us for him. He may go of his own volition, or a the decision may be made for him - especially if Webber cuts/is cut loose. 

Of course, my preference is he stays, turns things around (which will unquestionably take a hefty overhaul of this squad) and is a success. As I said, I like the guy and his limitations don’t make him a bad manager by any stretch. But I have a niggling feeling there’ll be a parting of ways - largely as it looks as though his primary objective this season will have been missed. 

Pretty sure that’s far from me being ‘deluded’. 

Kind of my point,

It's not your decision.

The only conceivable way Wagner would be relieved of his duties were if,

The takeover goes through,

They replace Webber,

New owners decide that Wagner isn't the man.

The chance of all 3 happening is minimal.

And Webber isn't going to sack his pal.

[Robert N. LiM 4,664]

5 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Yes we miss Buendia but one player doesn't make a team.

He turned us from a top-six team into a top-one team. We rarely looked like an outstanding team without him in the Championship during Farke's time.

Add Pukki's relative decline to that and our squad is not a Championship-winning one this season. It should be a top-six one, though, especially given this season's competition, and there's no doubt that we will have underachieved if we don't get in the play-offs (as looks almost certain now).

[Monty13 2,287]

I think judging Wagner on his tenure so far without context is harsh.

He‘s been asked to turn around a broken squad with one new addition (who doesn’t look that good) and we’ve now got a huge amount of injuries to key players.

I’ve still seen more good performances under Wagner in his short tenure than Smith. Wagner didn’t have the time and planning Smith had over Summer and Winter breaks to embed anything. He’s been firefighting.

Wagner may not be the best coach for us, jury’s still out for me, but he’s certainly not the reason we are where we are.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,664]

Just now, Monty13 said:

I think judging Wagner on his tenure so far without context is harsh.

He‘s been asked to turn around a broken squad with one new addition (who doesn’t look that good) and we’ve now got a huge amount of injuries to key players.

I’ve still seen more good performances under Wagner in his short tenure than Smith. Wagner didn’t have the time and planning Smith had over Summer and Winter breaks to embed anything. He’s been firefighting.

Wagner may not be the best coach for us, jury’s still out for me, but he’s certainly not the reason we are where we are.

 

Agree with that entirely. Last night aside (which I didn't watch), his lows have been no worse than Smith and his highs have been higher. Your last sentence is spot on.

[CDMullins 456]

2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

He turned us from a top-six team into a top-one team. We rarely looked like an outstanding team without him in the Championship during Farke's time.

Add Pukki's relative decline to that and our squad is not a Championship-winning one this season. It should be a top-six one, though, especially given this season's competition, and there's no doubt that we will have underachieved if we don't get in the play-offs (as looks almost certain now).

Your forgetting that at the early point in this season we were top of the table, unbeaten in 9.

You don't do that if you're a poor team.

[hogesar 9,818]

Smith wasn't as bad as some made out, that's why he's landed a Prem job next and not a League One job (as many on here predicted!).

Wagner doesn't have a single experienced CB available, hasn't had a single central attacking midfielder fit for weeks, and has had to play Tzolis at times. That's not fair on anyone.

[Monty13 2,287]

10 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

At the start of this season we had;

Krul

Aarons

Hanley

Gibson

Giannoulis

Mclean

Sorensen

Hernandez

Dowell

Cantwell

Pukki

 

Alongside this - Andy O, Byram, Placheta, Idah and Angus

All of which have won 1 if not 2 Championships.

Yes we miss Buendia but one player doesn't make a team.

32 direct goal contributions. Thats ignoring all the other work he did.

He didn’t make a team but it’s hard to argue he didn’t make the difference between an ordinary team and an outstanding one.

[Robert N. LiM 4,664]

Just now, CDMullins said:

Your forgetting that at the early point in this season we were top of the table, unbeaten in 9.

You don't do that if you're a poor team.

I'm not arguing we're a poor team. I think we should be in the top six and not doing so will be a failure.

But there were plenty of people arguing our position right at the top of the table flattered us a bit. I can't say I ever expected us to win the league at that point - but at that stage I thought we would make the play-offs comfortably.

[Robert N. LiM 4,664]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

He didn’t make a team but it’s hard to argue he didn’t make the difference between an ordinary team and an outstanding one.

I'd say 'very good' rather than 'ordinary' but otherwise yes: he (and Skipp) made a huge difference for us and it is just bizarre to argue otherwise.

[mrdi 382]

4 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Kind of my point,

It's not your decision.

The only conceivable way Wagner would be relieved of his duties were if,

The takeover goes through,

They replace Webber,

New owners decide that Wagner isn't the man.

The chance of all 3 happening is minimal.

And Webber isn't going to sack his pal.

Well actually, you didn’t make a point - you just threw a misappropriation into the mix and swaggered off. 

I think it’s highly likely that we’ll end up finishing around 9th/10th and subsequently/regardless, at least one of the above scenarios will happen. 

But like you say, it’s not my decision. It’s not yours, either. Or indeed, the decision of anyone using this board. Obviously time to close this board down! 

 

 

[Indy 3,349]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Smith wasn't as bad as some made out, that's why he's landed a Prem job next and not a League One job (as many on here predicted!).

Wagner doesn't have a single experienced CB available, hasn't had a single central attacking midfielder fit for weeks, and has had to play Tzolis at times. That's not fair on anyone.

Smith was awful, his record shows that.......the squad fitness and attitude, I don't get the love by some for such a poor manager.....

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,452]

18 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

At the start of this season we had;

Krul

Aarons

Hanley

Gibson

Giannoulis

Mclean

Sorensen

Hernandez

Dowell

Cantwell

Pukki

 

Alongside this - Andy O, Byram, Placheta, Idah and Angus

All of which have won 1 if not 2 Championships.

Yes we miss Buendia but one player doesn't make a team.

Evidently it does 

[CDMullins 456]

5 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I'm not arguing we're a poor team. I think we should be in the top six and not doing so will be a failure.

But there were plenty of people arguing our position right at the top of the table flattered us a bit. I can't say I ever expected us to win the league at that point - but at that stage I thought we would make the play-offs comfortably.

It absolutely did flatter us.

Our performances were horrid.

My point is, the same players that had won 2 Championships we're back on top of the table, even without playing well.

So the players weren't the issue...

[CDMullins 456]

6 minutes ago, mrdi said:

Well actually, you didn’t make a point - you just threw a misappropriation into the mix and swaggered off. 

I think it’s highly likely that we’ll end up finishing around 9th/10th and subsequently/regardless, at least one of the above scenarios will happen. 

But like you say, it’s not my decision. It’s not yours, either. Or indeed, the decision of anyone using this board. Obviously time to close this board down! 

 

 

Let's flip it then,

Why do you think he won't be here in August?

By the way, I hope you're right.

[norfolkngood 1,097]

Zoe's Quote on Hiring Wagner 

“The recruitment of a new head coach is always an important process and it is important to give our supporters some insight into the processes that are in place,” she wrote. “It is never our wish to find new head coaches, but the reality of life at this level means that we constantly track and monitor the performance of coaches across the world as part of our approach. 

“In addition, the candidates went through a thorough and rigorous two-stage interview process that was approved at the highest level of the club. 

"We have been focused on bringing someone to Norwich who has experienced success at this level and knows the demands of coaching winning teams in Championship football. 

“Our playing style, which is long-established, is also important to our supporters and that has been one of the determining factors in the recruitment of the new head coach. 

i have never heard so much Rubbish 

Our playing style long - established why hire smith to replace Farke ?

Track and monitor the performance of coaches across the world ? why would you Hire Wagner after the performances at last two clubs  is he really the best in the world we could get or was it Hubbies mate ? 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

17 minutes ago, Indy said:

Smith was awful, his record shows that.......the squad fitness and attitude, I don't get the love by some for such a poor manager.....

It's not 'love' for Smith, it's simply recognition that he wasn't the source of the issue and he was working to try and make things work. The level of dissatisfaction with him and the squad even when he had us in the top two for a fair stretch underlines how idiotic the fan hostility to him was.

The players backed Smith, the off-pitch team backed Smith, the only problem we had was a persistent drip drip of negativity with the 'false position' and the 'eye test' ? I MEAN HOW DIM MUST SOMEONE BE TO COMPLAIN AT GETTING BETTER RESULTS THAN YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE, ESPECIALLY NOW WE'RE NOT GETTING RESULTS EITHER?!!

He had us in the top two for a fair part of the season, which is more than his replacement has done. For all we never had results as good as those 4 goal epics when Wagner first arrived, we never had results as bad as yesterday either under Smith.

Ramsey was one of our stronger performers this season, and we lost him when Smith was made the scapegoat earlier in the season. Ramsey made it abundantly clear what he thought of Norwich fans deriding Smith when  when he went to celebrate in front of the travelling Norwich support.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[mrdi 382]

16 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Let's flip it then,

Why do you think he won't be here in August?

By the way, I hope you're right.

1. His objective was to rescue a season which was slipping away and to achieve at least a play-off spot. Finish in a lower position than when he took over and that will speak for itself in terms of how he’s met that objective. 

2. He may seek assurances about what rebuilding plans/budgets are in place for the summer. They may not be to his liking, or involve him sufficiently. 

3. The circumstances of him joining were very different to those we’ll be in very soon. It almost becomes a new project and there’s no guarantee the project will be one he wants to be part of; nor is there any guarantee he’d be deemed the right man for it. 

4. Webber goes, Wagner goes by association. 

5. Takeover, everything changes. 

6. His rolling contract makes him easier to remove and makes it easier for him to leave. It’s a lower level of mutual obligation, less expensive to terminate. It’s not inconceivable he could simply quit at the end of the season for a fresh challenge. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by mrdi

[norfolkngood 1,097]

2 hours ago, Walcombe canary said:

David Wagner has to be given the Summer Transfer Window, and up until Christmas. Too early to call him out. He is playing with cards already dealt. The pressure is on The Dealer, Stuart Webber. He must get it absolutely Spot On this summer. This is his Mountain to climb. No other - OTBC

i would normally Agree 

But Warnock has walked into a Terrible Huddersfield team and instantly made them get results through Knowledge know how and experience he set them up hard to beat and get results 

none of them are his players 

none signed by him maybe never played his style all down and low on confidence and bang in walks colin and gets them playing 

Wagner has got injuries but a Very good Manager can alter his tactics to combat that crowd the midfield play 5 at the back do something not just play the same way 

 

[Indy 3,349]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's not 'love' for Smith, it's simply recognition that he wasn't the source of the issue and he was working to try and make things work. The level of dissatisfaction with him and the squad even when he had us in the top two for a fair stretch underlines how idiotic the fan hostility to him was.

The players backed Smith, the off-pitch team backed Smith, the only problem we had was a persistent drip drip of negativity with the 'false position' and the 'eye test' ? I MEAN HOW DIM MUST SOMEONE BE TO COMPLAIN AT GETTING BETTER RESULTS THAN YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE, ESPECIALLY NOW WE'RE NOT GETTING RESULTS EITHER?!!

He had us in the top two for a fair part of the season, which is more than his replacement has done. For all we never had results as good as those 4 goal epics when Wagner first arrived, we never had results as bad as yesterday either under Smith.

Ramsey was one of our stronger performers this season, and we lost him when Smith was made the scapegoat earlier in the season. Ramsey made it abundantly clear what he thought of Norwich fans when  when he went to celebrate in front of the travelling Norwich support.

 

He was utterly useless here and never fitted this club.....his record shows what he was the worst manger since 1996.....and we had some very poor appointments in that time.

He instilled a That Will Do mentality which is still lingering at squad level.

[BigFish 1,990]

10 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

So the players weren't the issue...

Maybe not the only issue, but definitly an issue. Cantwell was demotivated; Krul & Pukki were not the players they once were; Hayden was constantly injured; Sara and Nunez took time to acclimatise to the Chumps; Ramsay, McLean, Hanley, Gibson, Placheta, Rowe & Dowell all got injured.

[hogesar 9,818]

21 minutes ago, Indy said:

Smith was awful, his record shows that.......the squad fitness and attitude, I don't get the love by some for such a poor manager.....

I dont think anyone shows love. Some just acknowledgement he wasn't as bad as some made out. If the squad was as good as some suggested where us being 3rd under Smith was a failure, then we would have seen a bit more under Wagner.

And Leciesters owners have been heralded on here as the perfect owners, and they've gone with him...

[Myra Hawtree 127]

Smith and Shakey getting bigged up in article in “i” newspaper today.

Not liked here because he wasn’t Farke, but people were calling for Farke to be sacked!!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

15 minutes ago, Indy said:

He was utterly useless here and never fitted this club.....his record shows what he was the worst manger since 1996.....and we had some very poor appointments in that time.

He instilled a That Will Do mentality which is still lingering at squad level.

Meaningless statement. He inherited a failing Premier League squad and did better than the person he replaced at that level with the same players, just not well enough.

As to this season, we really don't know how it would have ended up because many were too impatient to let it run its course. What we do know is that we lost a quality loan player who could make a difference because of the stupid hatred of Smith and Smith got us to a better overall position than his replacement has since.

We also know that a team that has had outstanding success as a Premier League and FA Cup winner of recent years doesn't buy into your obstinate insistence that Smith is useless.

Wagner in turn had the difficult job of trying to get a deflated team working with despondent and disinterested fans as a backdrop. He should now be allowed to take stock and given a proper chance next season. For the full season without stupid speculation, prejudgement and arguments about whether he should be sacked every week win draw or lose.

Edited April 15, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

One advantage Wagner 'should/could/did' have over Smith is his knowledge of European/Germam football and the possibility of tapping in to that market as Farke did.

However if brexit prevents us from buying from that market then there is no advantage that Wagner has over any British manager.

Webber has to be accountable with his job at the end of this season should we finish outside of the top 6.

If Wagner is only here because of Webber and he leaves as a result, then so be it