Tzolis returning to Norwich

[chicken 2,674]

1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Wonder if it is as simple as... Sinani has got interest, lets bin him off for a few hundred grand because he's clearly not getting an extension and I'll have a look at Tsoliz.

I think so.

I mean, Dowell and Hernandez are suddenly back to their best. You'd want to give Wagner a chance with Tzolis. Plus right now, he's never going to have a better chance to force himself into this team is he?

Sinani, I'm not sure anyone has been convinced he is the type of player we need. I don't think he's poor, he's a good, solid championship player but we need someone who is very creative or pacey really, and he's sort of neither. He needs to go to a mid-table team to get game time and perfect the creative aspect of his game more.

The other thing is, you could argue that Sinani and Dowell are very similar players in the way they want to play. Sinani is 6 months older, turns 26 in April and just isn't as good as Dowell. Tzolis coming back is a similar sort of player too, but is much younger with more potential.

I think it's just a case of having way too many AMs and cutting the numbers down a bit whilst also having good accademy/young options to flesh out the squad. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, chicken said:

The other thing is, you could argue that Sinani and Dowell are very similar players in the way they want to play. Sinani is 6 months older, turns 26 in April and just isn't as good as Dowell. 

That assumes Dowell wants to stay here though. Both out of contract in the summer.

[chicken 2,674]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Or he knows a quality player when he see's him.  If he can get Tzolis working hard and operating as part of that offensive press then we'll have a hell of a player on our hand.  I think it's a big ask though, from a player who's looked lost previously.

I just don't see what Sinani offers in this setup.  He's a great option if you're a mid-table team hoping to squeeze into the playoffs, but we need players with a higher ceiling than that.  Tzolis has that potential and as a head coach with ideas that probably excites him a lot more than a player he feels he's already see most of what they can offer.

I get the feeling that Farke and Wagner both like wildcards with latent potential.

I agree with this. Though what I would say is that they scouted Tzolis very heavily, his stats were the best for his age group - or so we were told. I wouldn't say he's a wildcard as such... Placheta and Sinani are much more in that bracket. Placheta was brought here for his pace and I believe they felt they could drill/coach the rest. Sinani has some natural attacking ability, and considering he was plucked from obscurity that is probably of a standard equal to or lower than Cody MacDonald when we picked him up, he's not done too bad. 

[chicken 2,674]

2 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

That assumes Dowell wants to stay here though. Both out of contract in the summer.

We'll see I guess, but I don't see why he would suddenly be playing better and working much harder if his heart wasn't in it. He could be talking to clubs outside of the English league system right now and could have manoeuvred a move away.

If he doesn't sign for anyone on a pre-contractual basis soon I would say there is as good a chance as any that he will stay. It looks a lot like we have moved on a fair few of the players we don't know what will happen to so far, with noises around Sinani as well.

Hernandez and Dowell look most likely to stay. Never say never, but I think both of them are being given the chance to earn new contracts. 

[Branston Pickle 3,725]

I wonder if we might have a couple of contract announcements before long.  Onel for certain would love to stay and Dowell may well consider it a better bet now Wagner’s at the helm.

[hogesar 9,786]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

Got to ignore the "b team" rubbish when we featured what was a B team for us then. Not only that, a certain Pearson was playing and looked utterly daft, yet a bunch of people on here would like him here because he is supposedly good...

I think wingers pride themselves on winning their individual battles. In that game, he was against a left back who  ithink is plying his trade in league two.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 hours ago, chicken said:

Got to ignore the "b team" rubbish when we featured what was a B team for us then. Not only that, a certain Pearson was playing and looked utterly daft, yet a bunch of people on here would like him here because he is supposedly good...

To be fair I might be to blame for your Pearson comment there.

But when I mentioned him it was more along the lines of "how the hell have we left ourselves short of a DM again, doesn't have to be anybody special, he'll I'd take that little sh*t Pearson". 

And it was more frustration at having a second consecutive season signing a crock on loan in that position. 

What we really need is to find a young Alex Tettey!

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, Branston Pickle said:

I wonder if we might have a couple of contract announcements before long.  Onel for certain would love to stay and Dowell may well consider it a better bet now Wagner’s at the helm.

I would like both of those to stay and Pukki.

Sadly think it's time to say bye to Byram. Cracking player and chap, think he should go squeeze out a season or two at a Rotherham or Wigan or somewhere before calling it a day.

[Google Bot 3,351]

13 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think wingers pride themselves on winning their individual battles. In that game, he was against a left back who  ithink is plying his trade in league two

Both of Tzolis's goals came through the middle though, to be fair.  He was everywhere.

And I think what he demonstrated that day wasn't so much an ability to beat a full back but his positioning and ability on the ball, the one touch pass to set Rupp up for example, was sublime.

19 years old, Hadn't played a competitive match for us let alone in England, and pulled the strings throughout that match. 

We could say that Jack Vale was playing 5th tier against Kings Lynn last season and yet he scored to knock us out the cup this season,  We beat Preston 4-0 in the follow up, with an unchanged back line.... There's no conclusions to draw from that, and I certainly wouldn't start judging our defence on national league standards.

...Well, maybe sometimes.  But you get the general point i'm sure! 🙂

[hogesar 9,786]

9 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Both of Tzolis's goals came through the middle though, to be fair.  He was everywhere.

And I think what he demonstrated that day wasn't so much an ability to beat a full back but his positioning and ability on the ball, the one touch pass to set Rupp up for example, was sublime.

19 years old, Hadn't played a competitive match for us let alone in England, and pulled the strings throughout that match. 

We could say that Jack Vale was playing 5th tier against Kings Lynn last season and yet he scored to knock us out the cup this season,  We beat Preston 4-0 in the follow up, with an unchanged back line.... There's no conclusions to draw from that, and I certainly wouldn't start judging our defence on national league standards.

...Well, maybe sometimes.  But you get the general point i'm sure! 🙂

Hey, I really want Tzolis to succeed and I don't want to be painting a purely negative picture but watch the highlights below. The best I can say is his movement is good but most times he's just left completely open from our passages of passing play dragging Bournemouth defenders towards the ball.

I'd argue his "sublime" pass for Rupp was a pretty simple first time pass across the edge of the area. Good I guess, but sublime is probably stretching it as Dowell done similar 4 or 5 times in that match.

 

[Google Bot 3,351]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I'd argue his "sublime" pass for Rupp was a pretty simple first time pass across the edge of the area. Good I guess, but sublime is probably stretching it as Dowell done similar 4 or 5 times in that match.

It was sublime, first time hit, perfect weight shows his ability on the ball.  Think what many would've done in that situation vs the maturity that Tzolis showed.  Totally unselfish, head up at all times looking to make that play.

If you're saying in his first match as a 19 year old he's as good as Ex-Everton, Ex-Derby, Ex-Forest Dowell... Then i'd say that's pretty good achievement, I'm really not sure what you're trying to paint here really.

At least we'll be able to see for real... "If" he's capable of putting the shift demanded of him, said above, that's the big question for me.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Google Bot

[Robert N. LiM 4,645]

The game I think of when Tzolis is mentioned is that disastrous draw at Newcastle when they went down to ten men in the first minute.

Tzolis was subbed at half time, having had what everyone agreed was a shocker. But in that 45 mins he had a couple of shots on target and set up a couple of chances for others. While having a shocker. 

Perhaps it's over optimistic, but I think there's a player there, possibly even a weapon in time. I'm delighted he's back here, with our coaching staff. We paid a lot of money for him: let's give him the time and chance to prove himself worthy of it.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Robert N. LiM

[hogesar 9,786]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

It was sublime, first time hit, perfect weight shows his ability on the ball.  Think what many would've done in that situation vs the maturity that Tzolis showed.  Totally unselfish, head up at all times looking to make that play.

If you're saying in his first match as a 19 year old he's as good as Ex-Everton, Ex-Derby, Ex-Forest Dowell... Then i'd say that's pretty good achievement, I'm really not sure what you're trying to paint here really.

At least we'll be able to see for real... "If" he's capable of putting the shift demanded of him, said above, that's the big question for me.

I think there's every realistic possibility that I'm being unduly harsh because after getting really excited about signing RvW because it was a "big" signing for Norwich and all the highlight videos looked good (albeit in hindsight only showed primarily tap-in goals against poor defences, let's move on...) to then get really excited about Tzolis only for him to essentially take a steaming dump on my hope and aspiration....

He deserves a chance. I think every fan will give him that. Will be interesting to see if he's anywhere near the squad for Saturday...

[PurpleCanary 5,599]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I think there's every realistic possibility that I'm being unduly harsh because after getting really excited about signing RvW because it was a "big" signing for Norwich and all the highlight videos looked good (albeit in hindsight only showed primarily tap-in goals against poor defences, let's move on...) to then get really excited about Tzolis only for him to essentially take a steaming dump on my hope and aspiration....

He deserves a chance. I think every fan will give him that. Will be interesting to see if he's anywhere near the squad for Saturday...

😍

[hogesar 9,786]

28 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

😍

Hindsight for me , I should say. Not for you, mr purple 😉 

[king canary 7,695]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

He deserves a chance. I think every fan will give him that. Will be interesting to see if he's anywhere near the squad for Saturday...

Feels like a classic 'hope for the best, expect the worst' type situation.

In the positives column he's a young player with enough talent that we spent a good chunk of our limited funds on him and he's joining a squad with positive vibes and a manager who likes to attack.

In the negatives, he struggled here before and couldn't make much of an impact in the not very good Dutch league. 

This may be the fresh start he needs, it may be that actually first impressions are correct and he just isn't very good. Fingers crossed it's the former but I'm not going to let me expectations get too high.

[Google Bot 3,351]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I think there's every realistic possibility that I'm being unduly harsh because after getting really excited about signing RvW because it was a "big" signing for Norwich and all the highlight videos looked good

Do you ever wonder what RvW would've been like in a Farke side, though?  When assessing these players, I think the coaching and management around them is a major factor in how they grow and perform within the squad and league as a whole.

Pukki could've signed under a Hughton, or a Smith and we'd have a whole different outlook on him.  Ultimately, when it comes to Tzolis I'm putting my trust in the coach to unlock his potential. 

Smith wasn't able to get anywhere near the best out of Pukki, who's blueprint for success had already been established.. So had zero faith in his decisions to leave Tzolis out the team when we were getting trod on each week.  Wipe it clean, and move on - fresh eyes and all that!

[hogesar 9,786]

17 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Do you ever wonder what RvW would've been like in a Farke side, though?  When assessing these players, I think the coaching and management around them is a major factor in how they grow and perform within the squad and league as a whole.

Pukki could've signed under a Hughton, or a Smith and we'd have a whole different outlook on him.  Ultimately, when it comes to Tzolis I'm putting my trust in the coach to unlock his potential. 

Smith wasn't able to get anywhere near the best out of Pukki, who's blueprint for success had already been established.. So had zero faith in his decisions to leave Tzolis out the team when we were getting trod on each week.  Wipe it clean, and move on - fresh eyes and all that!

I did. But then I saw him fail when on loan to Saint-Etienne, and then again when he went to Real Betis. As per the rest of his career he couldn't consistently find goals until he left the top European Leagues and went to Vitesse. 

As for Pukki, he got the same goals and assists in the prem under Smith as he did under Farke. As for the Championship, well Smith had us performing all over the pitch worse than Farke.

Edited January 31, 2023 by hogesar

[Google Bot 3,351]

Just now, hogesar said:

I did. But then I saw him fail when on loan to Saint-Etienne, and then again when he went to Real Betis. As per the rest of his career he couldn't consistently find goals until he left the top European Leagues and went to Vitesse. 

Personally, I think we bare some responsibility for bringing in a high value player and not playing to his strengths.  If he came into a Farke team at championship level, It could be a whole different outcome due to his movement being such a critical part of our team - as Pukki showed.

And that's where Tzolis finds himself... Walking into a Wagner team at Championship level, clean slate.  Let's ****ing go man!!

 

[canarybubbles 1,952]

Broadly I agree with Google Bot. Very few players are a success or failure at a club, simply because very few players are exceptionally good or bad. For most players, the set-up and formation they enter, and how they are used in that formation, will dictate how they do, and this is probably especially true of young players.

I think you are being a bit harsh, Hogesar, when you say that Tzolis took a steaming dump on your hopes, although I accept that the penalty incident comes close to that (although I personally put more blame on the captain on the day, who should have taken control of the situation, slapped Tzolis down, and told him firmly that Idah was the designated penalty taker). So that screwed up his time with Farke, and then Smith gave him virtually no chances whatsoever (one start, two maybe?, a handful of ten minute cameos at the end of games). Compare that with the chances Sargent got that season when he was little more than a comedy act at the time.

Sorry to repeat myself, but give the guy a chance. I am also much less optimistic than I was when he arrived, but I am sure that Wagner will be far more inspirational for him than Smith ever was. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by canarybubbles

[king canary 7,695]

9 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Personally, I think we bare some responsibility for bringing in a high value player and not playing to his strengths.  If he came into a Farke team at championship level, It could be a whole different outcome due to his movement being such a critical part of our team - as Pukki showed.

And that's where Tzolis finds himself... Walking into a Wagner team at Championship level, clean slate.  Let's ****ing go man!!

 

While I do somewhat agree it is worth noting that the manager who first decided to not pick Tzolis was Farke- so it isn't purely a case of 'bad Dean Smith not knowing how to use talent.'

[Google Bot 3,351]

25 minutes ago, king canary said:

While I do somewhat agree it is worth noting that the manager who first decided to not pick Tzolis was Farke- so it isn't purely a case of 'bad Dean Smith not knowing how to use talent.'

Farke DID pick him though, hence the Bournemouth performance and the tight 0-1 at Arsenal.  It was the penalty incident where things turned.

Obviously a talented guy, but questions on his mindset - hence why i'm making the point of this being a clean slate, new manager who wants him, Twente technical director said it was Tzolis that wanted to come to us.  It's all good, right? 

[BroadstairsR 2,224]

32 minutes ago, king canary said:

While I do somewhat agree it is worth noting that the manager who first decided to not pick Tzolis was Farke- so it isn't purely a case of 'bad Dean Smith not knowing how to use talent.'

True, but Farke must have had a say in his signing. He clearly saw something in the boy.

Perhaps there was something more than the penalty incident that upset him.

[king canary 7,695]

12 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Farke DID pick him though, hence the Bournemouth performance and the tight 0-1 at Arsenal.  It was the penalty incident where things turned.

Obviously a talented guy, but questions on his mindset - hence why i'm making the point of this being a clean slate, new manager who wants him, Twente technical director said it was Tzolis that wanted to come to us.  It's all good, right? 

Yeah, to be clear I'm happy he's back if he wants to be here and we're giving him a clean slate. I'm just not getting my hopes too high that he'll suddenly be a key player for us.

[Google Bot 3,351]

3 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

True, but Farke must have had a say in his signing. He clearly saw something in the boy.

Farke's words at the start of the season:

“He was worth the money that we spent on him because he's one of the hottest prospects on the winger position in Europe for his age,” said the City chief."

“He has the potential one day to be one of the best wingers in the world, because he's quick, he delivers end product, he can score, he can assist, he can run in behind, he is a great character. This is why many, many clubs in Europe were chasing him."

"If there would be a guarantee that he makes the next steps and reaches that level then he would be worth £100m, because that is the going price for the best wingers in the world."

Unless Farke had been on the good stuff, I think it's safe to say there's a player in there who can cause issues for teams like Wigan, Hull and Bristol. 

[Google Bot 3,351]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm just not getting my hopes too high that he'll suddenly be a key player for us.

Screw that, this is entertainment - I'll save all my sensibilities for work.  It's good for the soul to get carried away and excited for new/returning players.   

People take this **** far too seriously, honestly.. All I read on here is pissy politics chat and discussions about boardrooms, shares, cynical stabs at supporter groups.   Zzzzzzz.

He's back, we're undoing the poor decisions made under Smith, And I can't wait to be back at Carrow Road on Saturday.   LETS ****ING GO BAAABBBY!!! 🙂

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

Maybe by cheering every touch by Chistos, rapturously clapping every jog and sprint , we , as supporters  can not only lift his performance but with enough positivity, we could actually improve him as a player. We can , as a self funded club , literally make money , just by cheering.

I claim no glory for this idea....all credit must go to Birdyo.  

[king canary 7,695]

10 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Screw that, this is entertainment - I'll save all my sensibilities for work.  It's good for the soul to get carried away and excited for new/returning players.   

People take this **** far too seriously, honestly.. All I read on here is pissy politics chat and discussions about boardrooms, shares, cynical stabs at supporter groups.   Zzzzzzz.

He's back, we're undoing the poor decisions made under Smith, And I can't wait to be back at Carrow Road on Saturday.   LETS ****ING GO BAAABBBY!!! 🙂

 

[chicken 2,674]

17 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think wingers pride themselves on winning their individual battles. In that game, he was against a left back who I think is plying his trade in league two.

Our line up for that game was:
GK: Gunn (2nd choice)
RB: Mumba (arguably 3rd choice after Aarons and Byram)
CBs: Zimmermann and Omobamidele (neither first choice at that time).
LB: Williams (arguably first choice).
CMs: Rupp, Sorensen, McLean (again, at that time of those three only McLean was really a 1st team regular, Sorensen was probably last pic for CM).
AM/Str: Dowell, Sargent, Tzolis (two players making their first start and Dowell who was not first choice).

So as I say, we were very much playing what was our B-side back then - the only exceptions being McLean and possibly Williams.

Leif Davis was playing left back and would have been up against Dowell who was playing right of the attacking three for us. He currently plays for that lot down the road in League One and is 23. Brennan Camp is currently playing national league for Eastleigh. He's the chap you are more likely to be talking about, age 22.

As for the rest: Nyland, S Cook and Rossi - all 2nd choice as such, though worth noting that Stever Cook had been regular premier league starter for Bournemouth before and transferred to Nottingham Forrest in January where he was a regular. Kilkenny is 22 and has gone on loan for experience but made 18 appearances last season including this one. Pearson was a regular last season with 26 appearances. Taylor is now at Exeter in League 1, age 23 and made one appearance, this one, before moving to Exeter on 31st Aug 2021. Everyone knows about Brooks, made 9 appearances that season but mainly because in October he was diagnosed with Stage 2 Hodgkin Lymphoma. I think it's suffice to say that he was a regular starter for Bournemouth in the championship the season before, and in the premier league before that. Marcondes made 21 appearances that season, and most reports have him as a regular at that time. Rogers is 20, he was on loan to Bournemouth from Man City, who is still his parent club, he made 17 appearances. (used the bit iffy Wikipedia for appearance numbers).

Of that then, Pearson and Brooks were certainly first choice. Marcondes was considered first choice at that time. And whilst Cook may not have been, he had the experience, and arguably quality to suggest he would have played ahead of Zimmermann and Omobamidele had he have been in our squad.

For me, two B teams up against each other in an early league cup fixture, hardly surprising. 

 

[The Bristol Nest 520]

Wagner saw him In rehab training and asked the hierarchy to engineer an early return. Tzolis has put the pressure on his end. 

This is where my optimism started to grow.