Transgender rapist to be moved from women's prison

[king canary 7,681]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Don't have a clue what the outcome would have been, and anything else is idle speculation. Fact is, their system worked as @A Load of Squit explained it. White got through as the model at the time in England failed.

Looks to me like Scotland's prisons learned from previous English prison service mistakes.

Well I'd suggest the evidence of another case (Tiffany Scott) where the transfer had been approved and was waiting to happen until this case blew it all up, suggests the outcome may have been different.

Speculation as you say but hardly idle and it is no less speculation to say 'this is the system working as intended.' 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

43 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Not true. We already know what more conservative media types do with any type of person that does not fit the nuclear family model. Furthermore, paying far greater attention to getting rapes reported, whether in prison or not, and in getting rapists convicted is of benefit to all rape victims, both male and female.

Do you reckon, for example, that transsexuals have caused far more sexual assaults to women prisoners than male prison guards? (Granted, if you find it hard to find good statistics, I'll understand for the reasons I said in the rest of that post).

Most public services provide safeguards for women in the presence of men. When I did Hospital Radio in Norwich nearly 20 years ago it was a rule that no male could enter any room occupied by a female patient without at least one other person present and I suspect the prison service for women would have similar safeguards in place. But even then I don't think the risk presented by a male with no criminal record is comparable to that of a convicted rapist, whether they claim to be a woman or not. This man is abusing the system in exactly the way many women feared it would be abused.

[king canary 7,681]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Most public services provide safeguards for women in the presence of men. When I did Hospital Radio in Norwich nearly 20 years ago it was a rule that no male could enter any room occupied by a female patient without at least one other person present and I suspect the prison service for women would have similar safeguards in place. But even then I don't think the risk presented by a male with no criminal record is comparable to that of a convicted rapist, whether they claim to be a woman or not. This man is abusing the system in exactly the way many women feared it would be abused.

Exactly this.

Gender self ID is basically a giant flashing loophole for predatory men to jump right through. It is so obviously open to abuse that I'm staggered that genuinely sensible people often don't seem to see it.

This isn't to say that trans people are inherently predatory or a threat but that men who want to abuse vulnerable women are going to very happily claim to be trans if it helps them get what they want. 

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Most public services provide safeguards for women in the presence of men. When I did Hospital Radio in Norwich nearly 20 years ago it was a rule that no male could enter any room occupied by a female patient without at least one other person present and I suspect the prison service for women would have similar safeguards in place. But even then I don't think the risk presented by a male with no criminal record is comparable to that of a convicted rapist, whether they claim to be a woman or not. This man is abusing the system in exactly the way many women feared it would be abused.

Agree with the penultimate sentence, but a convicted rapist is a potentially big problem in any prison, hence my initial comment on men-on-men rape in prisons, compounded by the problem that such matters are always grossly underreported.

 

[hogesar 9,769]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

Exactly this.

Gender self ID is basically a giant flashing loophole for predatory men to jump right through. It is so obviously open to abuse that I'm staggered that genuinely sensible people often don't seem to see it.

This isn't to say that trans people are inherently predatory or a threat but that men who want to abuse vulnerable women are going to very happily claim to be trans if it helps them get what they want. 

Wow, this resonates with me. Probably the best line in this entire debate. I think @TheGunnShow is making valid points but I don't think they're relevant to the underlying point you're trying to make. Yes, the numbers we're dealing with for this particular issue is small compared to rape crimes in general, but as you say it's such an obvious loophole that doesn't need to be there, an "easy win" if you like.

[king canary 7,681]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Agree with the penultimate sentence, but a convicted rapist is a potentially big problem in any prison, hence my initial comment on men-on-men rape in prisons, compounded by the problem that such matters are always grossly underreported.

 

I think the key difference though is this person was arrested for raping women. Without meaning to be crass I'm not sure how many pansexual, equal opportunities rapists there are out there. It doesn't follow that a person with a history of committing these kind of offences against women would attempt the same against men given the chance. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Agree with the penultimate sentence, but a convicted rapist is a potentially big problem in any prison, hence my initial comment on men-on-men rape in prisons, compounded by the problem that such matters are always grossly underreported.

 

Rape of men by other men in men's prisons is an acknowledged problem that prison services try to tackle. It is not remotely comparable to putting a male rapist of women in a wig in a woman's prison because he says he's a woman.

9 minutes ago, king canary said:

Gender self ID is basically a giant flashing loophole for predatory men to jump right through. It is so obviously open to abuse that I'm staggered that genuinely sensible people often don't seem to see it.

This isn't to say that trans people are inherently predatory or a threat but that men who want to abuse vulnerable women are going to very happily claim to be trans if it helps them get what they want. 

Definitely. In this instance we're talking about a convicted rapist, still with his tackle in place judging by the picture above, being put in a women's prison where the risk is obvious, but even then apparently it's up for debate whether it's right or wrong in some people's minds.

The presumption that it's safe for any man to be entitled to simply declare himself a woman and then have the right to access women only facilities is just plain wrong.

It occurs to me that trying to categorise non-binary people into male or female is the wrong approach. Possibly we should recategorise society as 'cis-women' and everybody else where cis-women are considered a protected social category. With all transgender people sharing with cis-men it should remove any concerns over threats from anybody else to cis-women.

I also think it would be a good idea to categorise competitive sport as 'cis-women' and 'everybody else'.

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I think the key difference though is this person was arrested for raping women. Without meaning to be crass I'm not sure how many pansexual, equal opportunities rapists there are out there. It doesn't follow that a person with a history of committing these kind of offences against women would attempt the same against men given the chance. 

I dunno, you'd be very surprised how much sexual assault goes on in male-only prisons (particularly against juveniles in adult facilities and also against those with psychological conditions) - and at the risk of repeating myself - what's reported is always far below the number of cases that really happen due to the stigma. Would also throw overcrowding into the mix to boot.

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

37 minutes ago, king canary said:

So you think this would have been the outcome of the risk assessment without any public outcry?

If so I have many bridges for sale...

We can only refer to the other cases (15 of them) in Scotland that involved transgender prisoners and there hasn't been any reports of other inmates being put in danger.

Until it fails you have to concede that the SPS process is working.

[king canary 7,681]

4 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I dunno, you'd be very surprised how much sexual assault goes on in male-only prisons (particularly against juveniles in adult facilities and also against those with psychological conditions) - and at the risk of repeating myself - what's reported is always far below the number of cases that really happen due to the stigma. Would also throw overcrowding into the mix to boot.

I don't know how you manage to miss my point on every single post.

I'm not claiming it doesn't happen, I'm very aware of it as an issue. I'm just saying (as LYB put above) it isn't the same as the issue being discussed.

I'm not saying men don't rape men in prison but your point seemed to be that housing a man convicted of rape in a men's prision is a threat to the other male prisoners. My point is that I don't think that follows and I'd hazard a guess based on what I've heard about 'codes' in prison and which crimes other prisoners often consider to be the most heinous, that rapists might be more on the receiving end of these crimes in prison. 

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The presumption that it's safe for any man to be entitled to simply declare himself a woman and then have the right to access women only facilities is just plain wrong.

It is utterly bizarre it is even a debate. I'd imagine a paedophile who declared that he identified as being 14 and thus needed to be housed with other young prisoners wouldn't be entertained in the slightest, yet for some reason in this case it is up for discussion?

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't know how you manage to miss my point on every single post.

I'm not claiming it doesn't happen, I'm very aware of it as an issue. I'm just saying (as LYB put above) it isn't the same as the issue being discussed.

I'm not saying men don't rape men in prison but your point seemed to be that housing a man convicted of rape in a men's prision is a threat to the other male prisoners. My point is that I don't think that follows and I'd hazard a guess based on what I've heard about 'codes' in prison and which crimes other prisoners often consider to be the most heinous, that rapists might be more on the receiving end of these crimes in prison.

I don't think I've missed your point, but I, and presumably @A Load of Squit going off his earlier post showing how few of these prisoners there are in Scotland, am wondering how likely it is to happen relative to other cases of rape in prison, that's all. In short, I can see the concern, I just think there are issues in prison that are harmful to prisoner safety which crop up infinitely more regularly than this, and our disdain may be better focussed there.

I think it's possible that male rapists are likely to get raped in prison themselves, although looking for stats on this has proven pretty awkward. There's not even much research in the US, let alone the UK.

Edited January 31, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[king canary 7,681]

8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I don't think I've missed your point, but I, and presumably @A Load of Squit going off his earlier post showing how few of these prisoners there are in Scotland, am wondering how likely it is to happen relative to other cases of rape in prison, that's all. In short, I can see the concern, I just think there are issues in prison that are harmful to prisoner safety which crop up infinitely more regularly than this, and our disdain may be better focussed there.

I think it's possible that male rapists are likely to get raped in prison themselves, although looking for stats on this has proven pretty awkward. There's not even much research in the US, let alone the UK.

But as LYB says they are different issues that would be dealt with in different ways- so I'm not sure why talking about one is seen to detract from the other?

Also I don't think good policy making is going 'well none of these 15 prisoners have raped anyone yet so we're all good!' I can't see any good argument for why a biological man who is convicted of violent crimes against women should be housed in a woman's prison, risk assessment or not. 

[ricardo 7,414]

A superb piece of writing.

https://4w.pub/a-message-to-those-recently-opining/

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

20 minutes ago, king canary said:

But as LYB says they are different issues that would be dealt with in different ways- so I'm not sure why talking about one is seen to detract from the other?

Also I don't think good policy making is going 'well none of these 15 prisoners have raped anyone yet so we're all good!' I can't see any good argument for why a biological man who is convicted of violent crimes against women should be housed in a woman's prison, risk assessment or not. 

I'd say statistics would be the strongest argument either for or against, but this is a very recent development so by definition anything here is naturally incredibly inconclusive. All we can hope is that the powers that be come up with sensible measures as we go along. We know the EPS's approach failed with Karen White as not all measures were carried out.

In other words, OK so far, but it's like winning the first game of the season. Long way to go.

Long-term, I wouldn't be surprised to see transgender prisons being built. And that's a measure I could readily get behind.

Edited January 31, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Herman 9,838]

14 minutes ago, ricardo said:

A superb piece of writing.

https://4w.pub/a-message-to-those-recently-opining/

Should I leave a message saying "calm down love"?

[ricardo 7,414]

22 minutes ago, Herman said:

Should I leave a message saying "calm down love"?

She doesn't seem to be the kind of person you'd want to get on the wrong side of Herman😉

[Foxy2600 305]

This case reminds me of the ridiculous position a very large corporation that I worked for in the 2000’s was put in. An official letter was sent to all management staff about inclusion and diversity and the fact that if you did not receive training or there was no record of you having had the training and an incident occurred, you could be sacked. 
Fast forward a few months later and another letter was circulated that an individual had decided to ‘become’ female and would now be known as (insert female name). This particular letter greatly upset one of my female colleagues who went to the General Manager and asked me to come along as a witness. She asked but one question…”Are you seriously expecting me to share a toilet with that thing?” 17 years later I believe she’s never had an answer….

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I believe that the law is there to protect and not favour. And I also believe that if you step outside of the law, then it cannot always protect you. And you should not expect it to.

A rapist of the kind we are deliberating on is now claiming his human rights. I would argue if you deny someone else, namely the woman you threatened before violently raping her, her human rights, then yours are also denied and forfeited.

Once you are convicted then, while your life is spared, there is no way you should be considered for any other rights and welfare than those of the prison you are in for the length of your sentence.

I do accept that there are certain rape cases which are difficult to prove due to the assumed consensual side at the time. But personally, I would like to see whole of life sentences for the violent degrading ones. I still find it hard to think of capital punishment as an answer without flaws but do believe there cannot be a sliding tariff for certain crimes.

So for these bustards in the news, I would say that cutting of the family jewels under surgery and having breasts does not entitle you to choosing. At the time of the crime, you used your male parts to rape someone.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I believe that the law is there to protect and not favour. And I also believe that if you step outside of the law, then it cannot always protect you. And you should not expect it to.

A rapist of the kind we are deliberating on is now claiming his human rights. I would argue if you deny someone else, namely the woman you threatened before violently raping her, her human rights, then yours are also denied and forfeited.

Once you are convicted then, while your life is spared, there is no way you should be considered for any other rights and welfare than those of the prison you are in for the length of your sentence.

I do accept that there are certain rape cases which are difficult to prove due to the assumed consensual side at the time. But personally, I would like to see whole of life sentences for the violent degrading ones. I still find it hard to think of capital punishment as an answer without flaws but do believe there cannot be a sliding tariff for certain crimes.

So for these bustards in the news, I would say that cutting of the family jewels under surgery and having breasts does not entitle you to choosing. At the time of the crime, you used your male parts to rape someone.

That's reasonable, but rights are supposed to be universal. If they're not univeral, then they're privileges, not rights.

Like my rights as an EU citizen turned out to be privileges of being a citizen of an EU country rather than an actual right once the UK left the EU (a reference to Brexit on this thread is well overdue on current form).

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's reasonable, but rights are supposed to be universal. If they're not univeral, then they're privileges, not rights.

Like my rights as an EU citizen turned out to be privileges of being a citizen of an EU country rather than an actual right once the UK left the EU.

Obeying the law is universal as well.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

Just now, keelansgrandad said:

Obeying the law is universal as well.

Yes, but individual rights are supposed to be inalienable regardless of whether you break the law or not.

[Foxy2600 305]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

Obeying the law is universal as well.

Only for us Mugs who think it’s important 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yes, but individual rights are supposed to be inalienable regardless of whether you break the law or not.

Rights are gained through the law though. Bit chicken or egg I know but you get the gist of whwt I am meaning. The raped have rights. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

Rights are gained through the law though. Bit chicken or egg I know but you get the gist of whwt I am meaning. The raped have rights. 

They are, but most of the things we consider rights are underwritten by national accession to international treaties on the subject, which gives an extra level of assurance. In principle, you still have your right to withdraw from those treaties if you no longer wish to award those rights, but that comes at a reputational price in the international community, which is why as a country we do a lot of grumbling about human rights tying our hands, but tend to actually stop short of pulling out of human rights treaties; if a country as high profile as us does it, then it's a green light for the Saudi Arabia's of the world to stop pretending and the whole artifice of international law soon falls to bits.

[Nuff Said 5,180]

4 hours ago, ricardo said:

A superb piece of writing.

https://4w.pub/a-message-to-those-recently-opining/

I have to disagree Ricardo. To be clear, I don’t disagree with a lot of the content but the big problem is the way this debate is generally conducted. I understand that the author is angry, and I understand why. But telling everyone they disagree with to go f*ck themselves just perpetuates the them and us, you’re either with us or against us nature of the debate.

I personally have felt uncomfortable with the place my views have put me. To be frank, I have often wondered whether I have become the modern equivalent of the racist grandad who used to sit in the corner muttering about w*** and p****. In other words, have my opinions become out of date and I’m incapable of recognising that society has moved on? I frequently find myself in opposition to those whose political views I generally agree with and allied with those those who I have stood against all my life. So I try to examine and test my beliefs but they persist. I would like to have a reasoned, rational debate but the inflamed nature of much of the dialogue, as with the article you linked to, makes that difficult.

The only way we’re going to move this debate onwards is by listening to each other and trying to understand differing points of view.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

4 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I have to disagree Ricardo. To be clear, I don’t disagree with a lot of the content but the big problem is the way this debate is generally conducted. I understand that the author is angry, and I understand why. But telling everyone they disagree with to go f*ck themselves just perpetuates the them and us, you’re either with us or against us nature of the debate.

I personally have felt uncomfortable with the place my views have put me. To be frank, I have often wondered whether I have become the modern equivalent of the racist grandad who used to sit in the corner muttering about w*** and p****. In other words, have my opinions become out of date and I’m incapable of recognising that society has moved on? I frequently find myself in opposition to those whose political views I generally agree with and allied with those those who I have stood against all my life. So I try to examine and test my beliefs but they persist. I would like to have a reasoned, rational debate but the inflamed nature of much of the dialogue, as with the article you linked to, makes that difficult.

The only way we’re going to move this debate onwards is by listening to each other and trying to understand differing points of view.

 

 

Telling these women to go f**k themselves is more or less what all of the transgender ideological extremists have done in branding women like this transphobic feminists.

[Herman 9,838]

8 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

Telling these women to go f**k themselves is more or less what all of the transgender ideological extremists have done in branding women like this transphobic feminists.

Trans issues are a tiny minority issue (0.02 of the population?) that has been weaponised and desperately tried to be turned into a wedge issue, largely by a lot of people that are not that heavily invested in it. Sadly, also. the people actually invested in it have become agressively intransigent making it very hard for people like me to find out more, without coming away with a dislike for both sides.

It's a mess of an issue sadly, with too many people of bad faith involved and too much anger, that it is one issue that I am happy to keep a good distance away from.

[BroadstairsR 2,215]

Suddenly, half the world is transgender, or you would think so given the prominence of this issue in the news.

I do not recall ever meeting a transgender person.

If ever I do, it will be the person rather than their choice of gender that will formulate my opinion of them.

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Trans issues are a tiny minority issue (0.02 of the population?) that has been weaponised and desperately tried to be turned into a wedge issue, largely by a lot of people that are not that heavily invested in it. Sadly, also. the people actually invested in it have become agressively intransigent making it very hard for people like me to find out more, without coming away with a dislike for both sides.

It's a mess of an issue sadly, with too many people of bad faith involved and too much anger, that it is one issue that I am happy to keep a good distance away from.

Which is exactly why I smell an attempted culture-war baiting that also smears the Scottish government, a unit that seems far more clued up than the morons at Westminster, at the same time.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

21 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Which is exactly why I smell an attempted culture-war baiting that also smears the Scottish government, a unit that seems far more clued up than the morons at Westminster, at the same time.

 

We're supposed to believe there's widespread support for this in society? I have friends heavily involved in LGBTQ topics that draw back from the way JK Rowling and others have been roundly abused for championing the arguments against taking things to these extremes.

There are massive contradictions in the whole ideology over changing norms on gender. On the one hand, gender is pushed as distinct from physical sex and should be accepted as such (no problem with that), but on the other hand if a prepubescent child gets the idea that maybe they should be the other sex (how do we know whether the idea originates with them or with someone planting the idea in them?) then they're put on a conveyor belt of puberty blockers, potentially followed by hormone treatment and major surgery to replace their functional sexual organs with the best fake, unfunctional clits, tackle, and boobs that money can buy.

There are children who have had this done and regret it, but have no way of undoing the damage done to them by medical professionals for the sake of the ideas of a radical group pushing an idea that I've not seen much evidence that all of even transgender people support, let alone wider society.

Transgender people should enjoy the same protections from harm and harrassment as anyone else and be treated with respect as individuals. That should go without saying. I question the idea whether these ideas are significantly reducing any 'suffering' of trans people while also creating a lot of wider upset.

I wonder where this idea actually originated, because its actually really easy to plant any ridiculous idea and have someone latch onto it and push it hard with massive negative social consequences. Indeed, trans people, a tiny minority of society, were of little interest to anyone before this whole controversy was whipped up; who's to say that the whipping up of crazy ideas like this in the first place isn't the culture war baiting stoking up social division and actually promoting the persecution of LGBT people in the West? I can think of one malevolent influence just East of Ukraine with a record of persecuting LGBTQ people that might encourage that sort of thing.