Transgender rapist to be moved from women's prison

[cambridgeshire canary 6,833]

Common sense wins?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64413242

[Canary Wundaboy 1,360]

That is a really unfortunate budgie she's smuggling....

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Good. He is a nasty bit of work no matter what he identifies as. I would do the operation for him with a rusty bread knife.

[Herman 9,838]

Is that Peter Kay's character?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

I think JK Rowling is owed an apology by those who demonised her for raising concerns about exactly this sort of possibility.

[horsefly 4,318]

17 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Good. He is a nasty bit of work no matter what he identifies as. I would do the operation for him with a rusty bread knife.

Might I be so bold as to recommend a blunt chainsaw instead.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

54 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Might I be so bold as to recommend a blunt chainsaw instead.

Before or after the rusty bread knife?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,833]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Before or after the rusty bread knife?

Look I'm not for 'medieval punishments' but if someone is a repeat rapist and its clear they won't stop why not just cut their penis off? Problem solved.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Look I'm not for 'medieval punishments' but if someone is a repeat rapist and its clear they won't stop why not just cut their penis off? Problem solved.

That's probably what he wants, to be fair...

[king canary 7,681]

Quite stunning how quickly the rank arrogance and stupidity the SNP showed over this issue has been shown up.

A quick bit of a daylight shined onto this issue shows how much of the current 'elite' (hate using that term but it kind of applies here) consensus is built on a total house of cards. If you say 'trans women are women, no debate' then you're saying you believe this person should be housed in a woman's prison. The moment you start making exceptions is the moment the whole edifice begins to crumble. 

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

How is this different to men-on-men rape in prisons? Moreover, how much of that goes unreported by men?

There seems to be so little literature on this that comparisons may be very hard to make at this moment in time.

Rape in prison in the UK - CrimePsych

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

Was up in Scotland last week and heard a bit of the debate around this issue.

What was surprising is that the very strict segregation rules and the procedures to process prisoners are being followed in all cases, this seems to be missing from the reporting of this issue.

The numbers of transgender prisoners is so low it does make you wonder what the real story is.

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/just-16-transgender-prisoners-in-scotland

According to a report published by the Scottish Prison Service (SPS) last week, there were 11 trans women and five trans men in Scottish prisons at the end of June 2022.

Of the 11 trans women, six were held in men’s prisons and five were held in women’s prisons. Of the five trans men, one was held in a men’s prison and four were held in women’s prisons.

Almost all of the prisoners were held in single cells, while one trans woman was residing in a double cell in a men’s prison.

The report states: “SPS defines social gender as the gender in which a person lives their day to day life. It may differ from the gender assigned at birth, which is the gender a person was originally registered as on their birth certificate. Non-binary individuals identify themselves as having no gender or as being on a gender spectrum between man and woman.

[king canary 7,681]

10 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

How is this different to men-on-men rape in prisons? Moreover, how much of that goes unreported by men?

There seems to be so little literature on this that comparisons may be very hard to make at this moment in time.

Rape in prison in the UK - CrimePsych

This is an entirely unrelated topic, not sure why you're trying to crowbar it in?

Feels a bit like you've just seen the words 'rape' and 'prison' so decided it is the same thing?

Edited January 31, 2023 by king canary

[king canary 7,681]

2 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Was up in Scotland last week and heard a bit of the debate around this issue.

What was surprising is that the very strict segregation rules and the procedures to process prisoners are being followed in all cases, this seems to be missing from the reporting of this issue.

The numbers of transgender prisoners is so low it does make you wonder what the real story is.

 

The real story is two fold in my view...

• How brain meltingly stupid to you have to be to think it was ever ok to house someone convicted of violent sexual crimes against women in a women's prison just because they suddenly say that is how they 'identify.'
• This case shining a bit of daylight on the inherent issues in the changes to the GRA that the SNP are trying to push through despite it being deeply unpopular with the electorate. 

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

The real story is two fold in my view...

• How brain meltingly stupid to you have to be to think it was ever ok to house someone convicted of violent sexual crimes against women in a women's prison just because they suddenly say that is how they 'identify.'
• This case shining a bit of daylight on the inherent issues in the changes to the GRA that the SNP are trying to push through despite it being deeply unpopular with the electorate. 

You are ignoring the strict rules on segregation and that there is an SPS assesment process that has happen.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

13 minutes ago, king canary said:

The real story is two fold in my view...

• How brain meltingly stupid to you have to be to think it was ever ok to house someone convicted of violent sexual crimes against women in a women's prison just because they suddenly say that is how they 'identify.'
• This case shining a bit of daylight on the inherent issues in the changes to the GRA that the SNP are trying to push through despite it being deeply unpopular with the electorate. 

I think the SNP sometimes falls into a trap of looking too hard to create opportunities to diverge from Westminster. Doubtless they saw it as an opportunity to make Westminster look backwards, particularly as the UK government moved to prevent Holyrood going down this path, but in the end it just looks like Scottish politics is dominated by lunatics with no regard for women's safety.

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

This is an entirely unrelated topic, not sure why you're trying to crowbar it in?

Feels a bit like you've just seen the words 'rape' and 'prison' so decided it is the same thing?

How is it unrelated? That's the crux of my question.

[king canary 7,681]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

You are ignoring the strict rules on segregation and that there is an SPS assesment process that has happen.

 

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't have great faith in it. You just have to google the case or Karen White to see the how these processes can be woefully inadequate. 

My overall view is that the feelings and safety of the women in the women's prison far outrank the need for a repeat rapist to feel like their gender identity is being respected, especially when this transition conveniently began post conviction. The risk to the female inmates isn't worth it.

[king canary 7,681]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

How is it unrelated? That's the crux of my question.

How is it related?

It is unrelated in that the crux of the debate is how do we house people convicted of violent sexual crimes who claim to be transgender. It is a unique and difficult challenge based on the ongoing debates around trans rights and women's rights.

The link you provided is about rape and sexual assault in prisons. A worthy topic but very different to this one. 

[king canary 7,681]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think the SNP sometimes falls into a trap of looking too hard to create opportunities to diverge from Westminster. Doubtless they saw it as an opportunity to make Westminster look backwards, particularly as the UK government moved to prevent Holyrood going down this path, but in the end it just looks like Scottish politics is dominated by lunatics with no regard for women's safety.

I don't think it is about being different from Westminster per se. I read a good piece recently (that I annoyingly can't find to link to) that highlighted how the SNP's near total domination of Scottish politics has made them somewhat complacent and disconnected from the electorate they represent and thus end up pushing policies that are popular in their political class but actually very unpopular outside of it. 

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't have great faith in it. You just have to google the case or Karen White to see the how these processes can be woefully inadequate. 

My overall view is that the feelings and safety of the women in the women's prison far outrank the need for a repeat rapist to feel like their gender identity is being respected, especially when this transition conveniently began post conviction. The risk to the female inmates isn't worth it.

The Karen White case was a failure of the English Prison Service, this case shows the SPS have a system in place that works. Segregation and assesment to ensure inmates safety.

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

How is it related?

It is unrelated in that the crux of the debate is how do we house people convicted of violent sexual crimes who claim to be transgender. It is a unique and difficult challenge based on the ongoing debates around trans rights and women's rights.

The link you provided is about rape and sexual assault in prisons. A worthy topic but very different to this one. 

I have to disagree. Frankly, I think some of the media reporting (not the comments in here, let's make that distinction crystal clear) is an attempt at crapping on transsexuals, but I do agree that care has to be taken in establishing a sound precedent due to the uniqueness/difficulty of the matter, and that the transition in this case seems "convenient" from the outside looking in.

In as far as rape is notoriously underreported and especially in prisons, meaning statistics re. prevalence need to be taken with a pinch of salt and probably considered as being far, far lower than in reality, I would suspect there's been far more rape from male prison guards on women prisoners (and quite possibly also rapes of women prison officers by men and possibly even transsexual women). And the crux of the debate for me is preventing rape in prisons full stop, of which this is a small part of it and appears to be getting blown out of proportion somewhat.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

I have to disagree. Frankly, I think some of the media reporting (not the comments in here, let's make that distinction crystal clear) is an attempt at crapping on transsexuals, but I do agree that care has to be taken in establishing a sound precedent due to the uniqueness/difficulty of the matter, and that the transition in this case seems "convenient" from the outside looking in.

In as far as rape is notoriously underreported and especially in prisons, meaning statistics re. prevalence need to be taken with a pinch of salt and probably considered as being far, far lower than in reality, I would suspect there's been far more rape from male prison guards on women prisoners (and quite possibly also rapes of women prison officers by men and possibly even transsexual women). And the crux of the debate for me is preventing rape in prisons full stop, of which this is a small part of it and appears to be getting blown out of proportion somewhat.

That's not true. There's a massive distinction between letting people do what they want to do without being harassed and turning society upside down for the benefit of a tiny minority while dismissing the legitimate fears of most women as to how these changes can be abused and potentially put them at risk.

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie
Inappropriate use of the word 'literally'.

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

19 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's not true. There's a massive distinction between letting people do what they want to do without being harassed and turning society upside down for the benefit of a tiny minority while dismissing the legitimate fears of most women as to how these changes can be abused and potentially put them at risk.

Not true. We already know what more conservative media types do with any type of person that does not fit the nuclear family model. Furthermore, paying far greater attention to getting rapes reported, whether in prison or not, and in getting rapists convicted is of benefit to all rape victims, both male and female.

Do you reckon, for example, that transsexuals have caused far more sexual assaults to women prisoners than male prison guards? (Granted, if you find it hard to find good statistics, I'll understand for the reasons I said in the rest of that post).

[king canary 7,681]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I have to disagree. Frankly, I think some of the media reporting (not the comments in here, let's make that distinction crystal clear) is an attempt at crapping on transsexuals, but I do agree that care has to be taken in establishing a sound precedent due to the uniqueness/difficulty of the matter, and that the transition in this case seems "convenient" from the outside looking in.

In as far as rape is notoriously underreported and especially in prisons, meaning statistics re. prevalence need to be taken with a pinch of salt and probably considered as being far, far lower than in reality, I would suspect there's been far more rape from male prison guards on women prisoners (and quite possibly also rapes of women prison officers by men and possibly even transsexual women). And the crux of the debate for me is preventing rape in prisons full stop, of which this is a small part of it and appears to be getting blown out of proportion somewhat.

In the kindest possible way, this whole post suggests a fair amount of ignorance to the issue at hand.

Firstly we're not talking about transexuals- there is is a large difference between someone who has undergone full sex change surgery and the person in question here who is, by any biological standards, male but claims they identify as a woman. Interestingly this distinction is extremely important when the public are polled on these issues and I think the misconception that 'trans = transexuals' is a common one to people who don't look into this sort of thing in much depth.

On the second point I'd suggest you're having an entirely seperate debate to the one most others are. This isn't a question simply of rape and how it can be prevented, it is about how this case rather highlights (in a quite extreme manner) the issues within the SNP's proposed changes to the GRA, what this means for similar legislation going forward in the rest of the UK, and the thorny issue of what to do when legislation designed to support one group rubs up against the rights of another.

It isn't just about prisons, it is about sport, healthcare, crisis support etc etc. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by king canary
typo

[king canary 7,681]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

The Karen White case was a failure of the English Prison Service, this case shows the SPS have a system in place that works. Segregation and assesment to ensure inmates safety.

I really struggle to see how you can draw that conclusion. Both this prisoner and another were either in women's prisons or rubber stamped to be moved to one before public outcry forced a u-turn that has now halted that. Doesn't sound like a system that was working to me. 

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I really struggle to see how you can draw that conclusion. Both this prisoner and another were either in women's prisons or rubber stamped to be moved to one before public outcry forced a u-turn that has now halted that. Doesn't sound like a system that was working to me. 

The system was working, the prisoner was kept in isolation pending an assessment and no other prisoners were put in danger.

 

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

3 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

The system was working, the prisoner was kept in isolation pending an assessment and no other prisoners were put in danger.

 

Exactly, the Scottish system worked. In Karen White's case, she hadn't undergone any surgery, was allowed through the system at the time, and then proceeded to rape. 

Can smell the attempted culture war stoking from three miles away.

[king canary 7,681]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly, the Scottish system worked. In Karen White's case, she hadn't undergone any surgery, was allowed through the system at the time, and then proceeded to rape. 

Can smell the attempted culture war stoking from three miles away.

So you think this would have been the outcome of the risk assessment without any public outcry?

If so I have many bridges for sale...

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

So you think this would have been the outcome of the risk assessment without any public outcry?

If so I have many bridges for sale...

Don't have a clue what the outcome would have been, and anything else is idle speculation. Fact is, their system worked as @A Load of Squit explained it. White got through as the model at the time in England failed.

Looks to me like Scotland's prisons learned from previous English prison service mistakes.