Pukki

[Petriix 2,853]

Pukki is by far the best player at the club. He can create and score goals in a way that none of the other players is capable of. The significant downturn in results coincided with stopping playing with the creative midfielders who know how to play to Pukki's strengths.

Without him we're going to be a proper mid-table Championship side. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,588]

Just now, Petriix said:

Pukki is by far the best player at the club. He can create and score goals in a way that none of the other players is capable of. The significant downturn in results coincided with stopping playing with the creative midfielders who know how to play to Pukki's strengths.

Without him we're going to be a proper mid-table Championship side. 

Not to belittle what his importance to the club has been, but personally, I don't think he's as good as he used to be. He doesn't make the most of chances as reliably as he used to. The fact a new contract hasn't been agreed at this point really reinforces the statements he has already made indicating his desire to move on.

Personally, I don't think he's going to be the difference between promotion and another season in the Championship, there's an argument from some that perhaps another season in the Championship might not be such a bad thing (not personally fully on board with that, but it's a viewpoint some people have), and the fact is it's as certain as it can be that he will be gone at the end of the season.

The money saved on his wages for the rest of the season, along with getting any sort of transfer fee for him really makes me feel that if a potential move comes along for him that he wants in the next few weeks, then we shouldn't get in the way.

[TheGoogler 324]

Given the interviews given to Finnish press and from his agent, it sounds like he wants a new challenge before his career winds down - and who can blame him. He's been fantastic here.

If that's the case we should absolutely try to get him to sign a new deal, but if that's not going to happen we should let him leave through the front door as an absolute hero, the same way we let Wes go. 

Whether he's playing at the same level or not is irrelevant, he's still a very capable championship striker. 

[Petriix 2,853]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Personally, I don't think he's going to be the difference between promotion and another season in the Championship

While I think promotion this season is unlikely, if we were to somehow pull it off it could only happen by returning to a style which maximises our existing strengths. Pukki is our only real strength, albeit under-utilised at this point. 

[king canary 7,664]

3 hours ago, tiimuu said:

Teemu has been always the kind of striker who needs correct kind of balls to score goals. Since Emi left no such balls around regularly. But if you watch the ball from Gibson in the Luton match you always knew that Teemu is going to score with that backspin shot, before he took the first touch.

But if Norwich has a plan like yesterday where most of the balls are crosses, everyone knows that you don't do a **** with Pukki. So if that's the masterplan of mr. Wagner, maybe selling Pukki at this point would be decent for everyone. And still, even Pukki has not been in the full form, he is #2 in scored goals and #1 in assists what it comes to Norwich. In the end of the season he is most likely both the best goal scorer and giving most assists.

Yes, to get the most out of Pukki you have to play in a hyper specific way. Sargent isn't as good as Pukki but he is a more rounded player who can play in different ways.

When we had Sargent up top earlier this season you could see central defenders hated it. He is the classic 'striker defenders hate to play against' ala Grant Holt in that he's physical, hard working and puts himself about.

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Bit harsh, because most good strikers are pretty greedy, but if he was sold this transfer window then I think it would be a win win. Sargent is good enough to replace him and we'd have some money in to potentially improve the squad this window instead of him going for nothing at the end of the season.

Not really. Watch him throughly, he is trying to do too much himself, when others are in better positions. Sargent needs to be up top, with Pukki, or on his own. We are going to have to get used to life without him and he just appears sulky now.

[ron obvious 1,514]

I still think there must be a way to play Sarge & Teemu together, between them they have a brilliant skill set & need to be coached into playing off each other.

Over to you Mr. Wagner ...

[littleyellowbirdie 2,588]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

While I think promotion this season is unlikely, if we were to somehow pull it off it could only happen by returning to a style which maximises our existing strengths. Pukki is our only real strength, albeit under-utilised at this point. 

 

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Yes, to get the most out of Pukki you have to play in a hyper specific way. Sargent isn't as good as Pukki but he is a more rounded player who can play in different ways.

When we had Sargent up top earlier this season you could see central defenders hated it. He is the classic 'striker defenders hate to play against' ala Grant Holt in that he's physical, hard working and puts himself about.

I think that this point about the specific requirements in overall play to get the best out of Pukki underlines why we're better off simply pursuing a future with Sargent in that role. We don't have the resources as a club to reliably bring in the sorts of players to support him.

I think Sargent has done enough to show that he's a strong striker. Realistically, 2 strikers is not workable, so one has to be favoured. If we're forced to develop around one or the other, it should be the one who's going to be here next season, which is Sargent, because Pukki himself is not someone who is going to be easy to find a like-for-like replacement for.

Edited January 9, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Petriix 2,853]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think that this point about the specific requirements in overall play to get the best out of Pukki underlines why we're better off simply pursuing a future with Sargent in that role. We don't have the resources as a club to reliably bring in the sorts of players to support him.

I couldn't disagree more. We already had/have the players to support him in a tried and tested system. Cantwell and Dowell were integral to our previous success. Any one of Nunez, Sara, Tzolis, Mumba and even Josh Martin could have been coached to fill the third attacking midfield role by now.

While you have a player of Pukki's ability it's madness to be doing anything other than maximising that asset. Fine if you've given up on promotion this season, then you plan for the future without Pukki. Until we're out of the running we should be playing to his strengths.

Let's be honest, we've been trying to come up with something different for a season and a half and it's been an abject failure. It's time to do the obvious and go back to what worked before. 

[tiimuu 6]

Pukki sees Sarge better than Sarge sees Pukki. But the real issue is that midfield don't see Pukki or Sarge. If Todd is gone and Norwich has Onel, Sinani and Placheta as wingers I believe it's all the same who is playing as the striker. Midfield and wings won't be enough. Except if few new good players arrive, but with the latest record, I'm not expecting to see good players. New players possibly.

[Indy 3,314]

I’m with LYB, Pukki isn’t hitting the heights of previous championship seasons, he’s getting some decent chances but not putting them away. I’m sure in time he’ll start hitting the back of the net again. His movement is still brilliant and he pulls defenders all over the place. Trouble is for me I want to see the team picked on form, so if you want to play Pukki, put him in as that number 10, play Sargent as the striker.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,588]

7 hours ago, Petriix said:

I couldn't disagree more. We already had/have the players to support him in a tried and tested system. Cantwell and Dowell were integral to our previous success. Any one of Nunez, Sara, Tzolis, Mumba and even Josh Martin could have been coached to fill the third attacking midfield role by now.

While you have a player of Pukki's ability it's madness to be doing anything other than maximising that asset. Fine if you've given up on promotion this season, then you plan for the future without Pukki. Until we're out of the running we should be playing to his strengths.

Let's be honest, we've been trying to come up with something different for a season and a half and it's been an abject failure. It's time to do the obvious and go back to what worked before. 

Wagner's adamant that Sargent's the man for central striker.

https://www.pinkun.com/news/23239203.norwich-city-david-wagner-josh-sargent-canaries-mantra/

[Newtopia 519]

45 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Wagner's adamant that Sargent's the man for central striker.

https://www.pinkun.com/news/23239203.norwich-city-david-wagner-josh-sargent-canaries-mantra/

It shouldn’t be a debate, he played up front in the World Cup for one of the top 20 countries in the World Cup, ie. He is one of the best strikers for a country of 330M people.

[chicken 2,642]

On 08/01/2023 at 16:14, rock bus said:

I agree, I just think he is tired and fed up. Been a fantastic signing for our club but we should let him go now and look to the future (Sargent + a.n. Other - definitely NOT Hugill or Idah!!)

As much as folks will desperately want this to be the case, I believe it's not true.

Pukki's stock wasn't particularly high when he came to us. He was on a free and hadn't done particularly well anywhere but Brondby where he had a just below 1 in 2 scoring ratio. He'd previously played for Celtic and Schalk where he'd scored 1 in 3 ish and not really convinced at all.

Fast forward to last summer. Pukki had scored buckets of goals in two championship title seasons spearheading our attack and also notching 11 goals (almost 1 in 3) in one of the toughest leagues in the world for a rather underwhelming side across two seasons. He had also just turned 32.

Clubs were interested and willing to pay millions but not that matched out valuation for him. He wanted to leave, but this would primarily be because if he was to cash in on his ability, to get a big pay-out, then would have been the time. When he could still give someone three seasons, and look to get at least a two year deal perhaps.

His stock had never been higher. We represent the best spell of his career and last summer, even more than this, represented his biggest chance to convert that record into wages. I do feel for him in that sense, he's been a model pro, no toys out of the pram, but you suspect if he had, he would have been sold. He more than earnt his opportunity really. 

[Canario 207]

9 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

It shouldn’t be a debate, he played up front in the World Cup for one of the top 20 countries in the World Cup, ie. He is one of the best strikers for a country of 330M people.

Whose national side would get beaten by any top/middling PL side. I wouldn't mind seeing how pukki fits in at 10 behind him though. 

[Petriix 2,853]

58 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Wagner's adamant that Sargent's the man for central striker.

https://www.pinkun.com/news/23239203.norwich-city-david-wagner-josh-sargent-canaries-mantra/

That's nothing to do with Pukki, just that Sargent won't be playing on the wing. They could (and probably should) be competing for one place. In any case they could play together in a 3-5-2.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,588]

10 minutes ago, Petriix said:

That's nothing to do with Pukki, just that Sargent won't be playing on the wing. They could (and probably should) be competing for one place. In any case they could play together in a 3-5-2.

Favouring an over-30 striker who you'll lose in 6 months over a 22 year-old fresh from World Cup duties doesn't strike me as a sensible decision. As for two-strikers, you can't rule it out, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Branston Pickle 3,682]

55 minutes ago, Canario said:

Whose national side would get beaten by any top/middling PL side. I wouldn't mind seeing how pukki fits in at 10 behind him though. 

Most National sides would be beaten by a top/middling PL side, so that means very little. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

On 08/01/2023 at 16:31, Helsinki canary said:

He will see out his career in Germany or Spain. 

His next club will be Sheffield United.

[BroadstairsR 2,200]

Pukki has many strengths which could well adapt to a deeper role behind Sargent. He would still be given the chance for his through runs. His age needs to be considered. I can't recall is  he the main striker for Finland?

SArgent is an out and out centre forwad  ... Pukki never was. It ws not  the role intended for him when he came. He suddenly struck gold (Buendia) but should not be played before Sarge as  lone striker.

McDougall ,, Boyer anybody?

54 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

His next club will be Sheffield United.

Seems likely.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

18 hours ago, Petriix said:

Pukki is by far the best player at the club. He can create and score goals in a way that none of the other players is capable of. The significant downturn in results coincided with stopping playing with the creative midfielders who know how to play to Pukki's strengths.

Without him we're going to be a proper mid-table Championship side. 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but we are already a proper mid table side. Sad truth is that without the goals of Pukki and Sargent this season we’d be a relegation contender. 
 

The squad has obvious quality in it with there being 15 players who have previously won the championship either once or twice with us. Let’s hope it was just poor management from the previous gaffer that caused the slump. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

4 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

Pukki has many strengths which could well adapt to a deeper role behind Sargent. He would still be given the chance for his through runs. His age needs to be considered. I can't recall is  he the main striker for Finland?

SArgent is an out and out centre forwad  ... Pukki never was. It ws not  the role intended for him when he came. He suddenly struck gold (Buendia) but should not be played before Sarge as  lone striker.

McDougall ,, Boyer anybody?

Seems likely.

He is absolutely the main striker for Finland he’s their all time leading goal scorer now 5 clear of Jari Litmanen 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,588]

10 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

He is absolutely the main striker for Finland he’s their all time leading goal scorer now 5 clear of Jari Litmanen 

At 32, Pukki's one of the best centre forwards for Finland, whch has a population of 5.5 million. At 22, Sargent's one of the best centre forwards for the USA drawing from a population of 331.9 million. In terms of their relative career achievements, it's difficult to compare given that Sargent is in the earlier stages of his career, while Pukki is in the latter stages of his, but what you can say is that Sargent has potential to learn more and improve, while Pukki is at a stage where only decline can reasonably be expected.

 

[Newtopia 519]

When Alex Neil transformed our season he played our best team in the formation he wanted.  Not our best players, and we have been crying out for a plan.

I genuinely wish / hope Todd and Teemu stay, but if they do not we should let them go.  Their decision should not affect Wagner decision on formation or playing style.

[Newtopia 519]

7 hours ago, Canario said:

Whose national side would get beaten by any top/middling PL side. I wouldn't mind seeing how pukki fits in at 10 behind him though. 

As a middling championship team not sure the comparison to premiership help, I always thought. Teemu would do well in pair up top with Sargent or Idah.  I just do not think that is how the rest of the squad has been shaped.  We are in a really odd position, I genuinely think the adjustment of strategy to 4 3 3 has left us with talented players playing in an inconsistent way.  The biggest issue at the moment is when we fall behind we do not look like coming back, the confidence and belief is shot.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

On 08/01/2023 at 15:58, The Great Mass Debater said:

According to the Todd article, Pukki is out of contract at the end of the season. How the hell has that been allowed to happen?!

How have you only just found this out, common knowledge!

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

At 32, Pukki's one of the best centre forwards for Finland, whch has a population of 5.5 million. At 22, Sargent's one of the best centre forwards for the USA drawing from a population of 331.9 million. 

You really have no clue about football do you.

The best forward in India should be the best striker in the world then!

[BroadstairsR 2,200]

2 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

He is absolutely the main striker for Finland he’s their all time leading goal scorer now 5 clear of Jari Litmanen 

No, I meant in actual games. Is he a lone striker or does he play behind one? I seem to  recall some other guy up there too. Marcus Force?

I realise his status in Finland.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

No, I meant in actual games. Is he a lone striker or does he play behind one? I seem to  recall some other guy up there too. Marcus Force?

I realise his status in Finland.

They play a similar system to what we had been i believe. He did an interview recently saying he’s been trying to get a player from the finish national side who provides him a lot of assists to join us but he went to the mls instead 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,588]

2 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

You really have no clue about football do you.

The best forward in India should be the best striker in the world then!

USA men's FIFA rank: 13

Finland men's rank: 56

India rank: 106

The fact that there's very little interest in playing football in India compared to the USA and Finland should be a pretty obvious factor to anyone who isn't completely clueless.

Edited January 10, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie