Parma’s State of the Nation

[Barham Blitz 661]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I think interestingly the psychological malaise and lack of ‘boys brigade’ all-for-oneness - that managers always need to find a way to create and maintain and reinvigorate and protect - that has been palpably lacking, may get triggered by the backs-to-the-wall injuries to MacLean, Hanley and Gibson.

The fresh blood - with no premier scarring - the fact that both Gibbs and Sorenson are what I would term ‘structural’ players (with a clear sense of positioning, defensive-offensive balance and timing, spatial awareness, sense of responsibility and a strong element of ‘team’ to both), plus both with a justified sense of grievance that they haven’t had more minutes (I hope Sorenson isn’t too passive about this. Don’t be afraid to knock on the manager’s door), may just see a mindset seachange catalysed.

If you listen to Wagner’s post match analysis, you can almost hear him rubbing his hands and feeling-understanding this. 

A chance of a chance. That’s all you can ask. 

In my view The seachange and mentality will be exposed to stress once Norwich actually get into the play-off places. 

If we were right before about the collective endemic psychological hangover-subconscious fear, that is when it will resurface. 

Let’s hope I’m wrong. 

Parma 

Interestingly though, what's left of the playing squad after today (given that Pukki is both probably not going to start every game and isn't going to be here next season anyway so presumably won't be affected one way or the other) is probably - Aarons aside - the players least scarred by the realities of previous premiership experience.

They might see it as career making rather than breaking ...

 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

Exactly that @Barham Blitz

Parma

[chicken 2,642]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I think interestingly the psychological malaise and lack of ‘boys brigade’ all-for-oneness - that managers always need to find a way to create and maintain and reinvigorate and protect - that has been palpably lacking, may get triggered by the backs-to-the-wall injuries to MacLean, Hanley and Gibson.

The fresh blood - with no premier scarring - the fact that both Gibbs and Sorenson are what I would term ‘structural’ players (with a clear sense of positioning, defensive-offensive balance and timing, spatial awareness, sense of responsibility and a strong element of ‘team’ to both), plus both with a justified sense of grievance that they haven’t had more minutes (I hope Sorenson isn’t too passive about this. Don’t be afraid to knock on the manager’s door), may just see a mindset seachange catalysed.

If you listen to Wagner’s post match analysis, you can almost hear him rubbing his hands and feeling-understanding this. 

A chance of a chance. That’s all you can ask. 

In my view The seachange and mentality will be exposed to stress once Norwich actually get into the play-off places. 

If we were right before about the collective endemic psychological hangover-subconscious fear, that is when it will resurface. 

Let’s hope I’m wrong. 

Parma 

Will it though? I'm not disagreeing with the concept here, but take a look at things.

Hanley, and McLean are two of the ever-present players that have been involved in both relegations. Gibson is arguably the player who came out of last season with the biggest "hit" having been exposed to both pace and not being quite good enough in general for that level.

The others that have been around and played through both relegations are Pukki and Krul. The former now playing to form what will be his legacy at this club. If today is anything to go by, he is wanting to go off on a high - so you can probably discount him. Goalkeepers are also a little different, I they can only impact the game so much and have to be able to handle defeat, possibly better than any other position.

Then it's Aarons and Hernandez. The former has aspirations of playing at a higher level and is still only 23. Hernandez wasn't part of last season and at least appears to be one of those rare kinds of people who not only is a glass half full, but a my glass is never empty positivity types. Boundless enthusiasm - like others have noted at times, in a similar way to Tettey. Evergreen optimism.

The rest are best described as young and hungry players.

So with potentially three of those longer in the tooth players who's subconscious is probably telling them this is the best they'll ever be or whatever, could we actually be in a better position mentally? Could this be a sort of "happy little accident", as Bob Ross would tell us?

Having players who have been wanting just this sort of opportunity? Omobamidele, Sorensen? Sargent essentially knows that if he smashes the remaining games he gets to not only stake his chance to be our leading striker next season, he has a shot of making that claim in the premier league - the one hurdle ahead of him, Pukki, is leaving.

Strange things happen in team sports. Sometimes, like today, losing those experienced players is like an old tree in the middle of a forest, being felled by a strong storm. The space left enabling a younger tree to burst into the break in the canopy to take up the space the light is now hitting.

Proof is always in the pudding, but we could actually be in a prime position for Wagner working some psychological magic now we could well be in backs against the wall situation with more young and hungry players than old and jaded ones.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

2 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

Sorenson and Gibbs starting.  3 man central midfield. Single striker played through the middle rather than several shoehorned in out wide. Wagner has clearly turned to this thread as a whole for ideas ...

Not before time either ... 😉

It does rather raise the question of why we had the rather shape-shifting approach seen recently . It never looked balanced, there was shoe-horning everywhere. 

I like Wagner, though I suspect he was ‘managing’ his squad via personality and locker room influence.

It is not unusual for a Manager to ‘get a feel’ for the changing room architects (some good, some toxic, some competitive, some collegiate, some a little disingenuous, serpentine even…such is football)….so you avoid making enemies, arguably at the cost of finding the right playing balance. ‘Newness’ of manager often lifts all boats anyway….Wagner also has thrown a bit of Jackson Pollock at the canvas in the name of giving all a taste-chance.

As a further point, I would suggest a weakness of managers generally is that they often try to get their best 11 players onto the field, somewhat at the cost of cohesion, strategic plusvalenza and tactical balance. It is tempting. 

I think Pukki leaving meant that Sargent had to be up-front-and-Centre and Idah had to be blooded meaningfully. 

You can certainly argue that that is medium term over short term. Managing upwards indeed. 

Parma 

[Robert N. LiM 4,479]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I think interestingly the psychological malaise and lack of ‘boys brigade’ all-for-oneness - that managers always need to find a way to create and maintain and reinvigorate and protect - that has been palpably lacking, may get triggered by the backs-to-the-wall injuries to MacLean, Hanley and Gibson.

The fresh blood - with no premier scarring - the fact that both Gibbs and Sorenson are what I would term ‘structural’ players (with a clear sense of positioning, defensive-offensive balance and timing, spatial awareness, sense of responsibility and a strong element of ‘team’ to both), plus both with a justified sense of grievance that they haven’t had more minutes (I hope Sorenson isn’t too passive about this. Don’t be afraid to knock on the manager’s door), may just see a mindset seachange catalysed.

If you listen to Wagner’s post match analysis, you can almost hear him rubbing his hands and feeling-understanding this. 

A chance of a chance. That’s all you can ask. 

In my view The seachange and mentality will be exposed to stress once Norwich actually get into the play-off places. 

If we were right before about the collective endemic psychological hangover-subconscious fear, that is when it will resurface. 

Let’s hope I’m wrong. 

Parma 

Haha, was looking forward to reading this post as today's game developed...

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

I think we are in agreement on the potential benefits in the here-and-now @chicken

I stand by my psychological forecast for the later scenario. 

Like I said, I hope I’m wrong. 

Parma 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

7 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I think interestingly the psychological malaise and lack of ‘boys brigade’ all-for-oneness - that managers always need to find a way to create and maintain and reinvigorate and protect - that has been palpably lacking, may get triggered by the backs-to-the-wall injuries to MacLean, Hanley and Gibson.

The fresh blood - with no premier scarring - the fact that both Gibbs and Sorenson are what I would term ‘structural’ players (with a clear sense of positioning, defensive-offensive balance and timing, spatial awareness, sense of responsibility and a strong element of ‘team’ to both), plus both with a justified sense of grievance that they haven’t had more minutes (I hope Sorenson isn’t too passive about this. Don’t be afraid to knock on the manager’s door), may just see a mindset seachange catalysed.

If you listen to Wagner’s post match analysis, you can almost hear him rubbing his hands and feeling-understanding this. 

A chance of a chance. That’s all you can ask. 

In my view The seachange and mentality will be exposed to stress once Norwich actually get into the play-off places. 

If we were right before about the collective endemic psychological hangover-subconscious fear, that is when it will resurface. 

Let’s hope I’m wrong. 

Parma 

Another factor is that it is also relatively to other teams performance. This is perhaps one of the weakest leagues for many years and all the teams above us, with the exception of Burnley have not impressed this season. If there is one team who has been playing at less than the sum of its parts then that team is us. If one team has the potential to overcome the nerves of a run in for one of the playoff places then surely we can stake a claim as the team with the experience of been there and got the t-shirt. Our problem has been inconsistency. We just don't know what team will turn up.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

I know that it is not a popular view, though I actually like Sorenson at Centre back. 

I am minded of - and I appreciate that I am reaching - Mascherano playing at Barcelona having been moved from midfield. 

I love this kind of move as a coach as it allows for excellent fluidity and options elsewhere on the pitch*

You in effect combine your Centre back with your CDM, add a gentle sprinkling of libero and even some lateral coverage. 

Very much like Sorenson in a squad sense (utility covering many positions), you end up with the same conceptual idea actually in the team. 

Of course 2D football can present it with a challenge, though I also really like Omobamidele and think that this is his chance to step forward considerably. Not in a playing sense, but in an authoritative, leadership sense. It is what his game needs anyway. 

Necessity is the mother of invention and all that….

Parma 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy
* you are ‘buying’ positive plusvalenza to ‘spend’ elsewhere. Say in extra covering in transition for Onel’s callow tactical and structural positioning 👌…

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

…just to add - and particularly if the opposition is only playing one up - any kind of full press typically leaves certain players favorites to ‘have’ the ball.

These would typically be a Centre back - considered ‘unthreatening’ structurally to the opposition coach-team, even with time on the ball - it would be brave,  but seeing Sorenson ‘step beyond’ with the ball into the area between our defensive line and our midfield, with time to pick diagonal passes, progressive vertical passes et al would be a nice repeatable tactical plus for us. 

It would take a week or two for opposition teams to see that they can’t allow this. 

Weaponish.

Parma 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Barham Blitz 661]

1 minute ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I know that it is not a popular view, though I actually like Sorenson at Centre back. 

I am minded of - and I appreciate that I am reaching - Mascherano playing at Barcelona having been moved from midfield. 

Inloce this kind of move as a coach as it allows for excellent fluidity and options elsewhere on the pitch.

You in effect combine your Centre back with your CDM, add a gentle sprinkling of libero and even some lateral coverage.

I completely agree - have been saying this for a while.  Plus Sorenson is seemingly comfortable playing left side centre back which Omo seems less happy about. People seem concerned that he isn't a traditional 6'3" stopper but it didn't do Baresi or Moore any harm and I see his composed, almost detached air a potential plus in that position, particularly alongside Omo's more traditional physicality.

My only concern would be that it would leave a relatively young and relatively quiet paring so Gibson is still a miss for me in the short term.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

On 07/04/2023 at 18:08, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I think interestingly the psychological malaise and lack of ‘boys brigade’ all-for-oneness - that managers always need to find a way to create and maintain and reinvigorate and protect - that has been palpably lacking, may get triggered by the backs-to-the-wall injuries to MacLean, Hanley and Gibson.

The fresh blood - with no premier scarring - the fact that both Gibbs and Sorenson are what I would term ‘structural’ players (with a clear sense of positioning, defensive-offensive balance and timing, spatial awareness, sense of responsibility and a strong element of ‘team’ to both), plus both with a justified sense of grievance that they haven’t had more minutes (I hope Sorenson isn’t too passive about this. Don’t be afraid to knock on the manager’s door), may just see a mindset seachange catalysed.

If you listen to Wagner’s post match analysis, you can almost hear him rubbing his hands and feeling-understanding this. 

A chance of a chance. That’s all you can ask. 

In my view The seachange and mentality will be exposed to stress once Norwich actually get into the play-off places. 

If we were right before about the collective endemic psychological hangover-subconscious fear, that is when it will resurface. 

Let’s hope I’m wrong. 

Parma 

Close enough.

Though of course we are in any case sportingly inferior to Middlesbrough by some distance - certainly to the neutral. 

To be quite as weak as we are now - sportingly, mentally, tactically - is quite an ‘achievement’ from the peak of promotion in ‘21 with Buendia-Skipp, plus £60m laid out. 

Forget about Boro, Brentford, Brighton or Blackburn comparisons, positive or negative outlooks, play-off chances or no play off chances, style of play to no style of play, winning mentality to a weaker fragile one, to have as ineffectual a set of players as we have now - from such a high point and so much money gained, with many of our contextually major investments far distant from use or capital return- is  horrible mis-management. 

The right question is not ‘why aren’t we someone else?’ ..

…The right questions to ask, that every employee of Norwich City should - and must - be asking themselves, is ‘why aren’t we what we were in ‘21?…how have we been so active, received so much, spent so much, traded so much, to get so much worse in every sense than what we ourselves had already built?

Comparing ourselves to ourselves is not only valid, it is necessary, essential and demands an empirical self-reflective answer in order for the club to progress from here. 

Parma 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy
Change from ‘poor’ to ‘ineffectual’

[Robert N. LiM 4,479]

2 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

The right questions to ask, that every employee of Norwich City should - and must - be asking themselves, is ‘why aren’t we what we were in ‘21?…how have we been so active, received so much, spent so much, traded so much, to get so much worse in every sense than what we ourselves had already built?

This 

[rock bus 854]

38 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Close enough.

Though of course we are in any case sportingly inferior to Middlesbrough by some distance - certainly to the neutral. 

To be quite as weak as we are now - sportingly, mentally, tactically - is quite an ‘achievement’ from the peak of promotion in ‘21 with Buendia-Skipp, plus £60m laid out. 

Forget about Boro, Brentford, Brighton or Blackburn comparisons, positive or negative outlooks, play-off chances or no play off chances, style of play to no style of play, winning mentality to a weaker fragile one, to have as poor a set of players as we have now - from such a high point and so much money gained, with many of our contextually major investments far distant from use or capital return- is  horrible mid-management. 

The right question is not ‘why aren’t we someone else?’ ..

…The right questions to ask, that every employee of Norwich City should - and must - be asking themselves, is ‘why aren’t we what we were in ‘21?…how have we been so active, received so much, spent so much, traded so much, to get so much worse in every sense than what we ourselves had already built?

Comparing ourselves to ourselves is not only valid, it is necessary, essential and demands an empirical self-reflective answer in order for the club to progress from here. 

Parma 

Boy that’s a very accurate but very depressing point!

 Webber has a lot to answer for and really should have the humility to hold his hands up and say he has got it badly wrong. He won’t of course because of his arrogance.

(he should also give McNally a call and say sorry for his stupid comment about wasting money now he knows how easy it is to do!)

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

See Mark Attanasio companion thread for next structural moves. 

Parma 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

Parma Ham's gone mouldy     1,535

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Posted 12 hours ago

There are of course benefits to buying distressed assets.

We are distressed in a sporting sense and have some financial distress in that we have forward contracted some of our monies due. 

Attanasio is now moving into the kind of territory that is comfortable to him. 

You have an attractive asset owner who is about to run into difficulties paying for its basic upkeep.

The asset has inherent equity gain value that is as yet unrealised.

This puts you in the elegant position - as you have some cash that you can inject - of looking good buying equity, whilst saying all the right things of course.

You inevitably present positively as offering a brighter tomorrow by virtue of simply being someone else to the current owner. 

You then rubber-stamp this impression by throwing some sexy early money at signings, perhaps even leveraging the club a little for some eye-catching, popular - and possibly overdue - infrastructure improvements. 

This fun early dice roll gives you a reasonable shout at a promotion within a year or two. Perfect. All was ‘true’.

Or. 

The investments you inject amount to somewhere south of the current c£43m equity gain - that the thoroughly decent, though perhaps over-credulous -  current owner has, willingly or blindly,  bequeathed you .

At some point within or around the c£43million ‘invested’ mark, you take on new American cousins to ‘help get you to the next level’ or you receive an offer ‘you can’t refuse’.

How generous were you? 

Parma 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy
Ever more relevant to State of the Nation. ‘Mark Attanasio’ thread.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

On 06/04/2023 at 16:29, BigFish said:

That's not cynical at all @Parma Ham's gone mouldy, sounds like a glass half full of vintage champagne. If I understand you right it assumes much greater involvement (financially) from MA, planned run down of the old and a funded reboot of the team.

Are you sure you haven't spent too long in the sun? 😀

 

This all assumes Delia and MWJ are willing to step aside though. I have absolutely zero faith that is the case and fear fans are getting their hopes up on the front. 

[Jim Smith 2,339]

On 15/04/2023 at 08:45, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Close enough.

Though of course we are in any case sportingly inferior to Middlesbrough by some distance - certainly to the neutral. 

To be quite as weak as we are now - sportingly, mentally, tactically - is quite an ‘achievement’ from the peak of promotion in ‘21 with Buendia-Skipp, plus £60m laid out. 

Forget about Boro, Brentford, Brighton or Blackburn comparisons, positive or negative outlooks, play-off chances or no play off chances, style of play to no style of play, winning mentality to a weaker fragile one, to have as poor a set of players as we have now - from such a high point and so much money gained, with many of our contextually major investments far distant from use or capital return- is  horrible mis-management. 

The right question is not ‘why aren’t we someone else?’ ..

…The right questions to ask, that every employee of Norwich City should - and must - be asking themselves, is ‘why aren’t we what we were in ‘21?…how have we been so active, received so much, spent so much, traded so much, to get so much worse in every sense than what we ourselves had already built?

Comparing ourselves to ourselves is not only valid, it is necessary, essential and demands an empirical self-reflective answer in order for the club to progress from here. 

Parma 

Because other people who were obviously contributing  have left and the club is being entirely run by two chancers, both promoted way above their station by our gullible owners. And they are raking in millions in the process. 

[shefcanary 2,446]

Things happen in negotiations Parma, but the heads of terms that opened negotiations are quite difficult to move. When negotiations started we were an EPL club, those heads would have been based on the position then which were "slightly distressed" but with strong evidence of a bounce back being very quick. Some 12 plus months later, I think if Attanasio tried to renege on the heads of terms, that would prove to Smith & Jones he was not the sort of person to trust with the club. Of course, the fact there now looks likely to not be an immediate return to the EPL does in some way make the likelihood of a large outlay immediately much reduced and thus should mitigate Attanasio's view on matters.

In my view, the deal is still the deal it was 12 months ago, but initial investment required has been downgraded, with checks and balances from Smith & jones exit still to be signed off.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,449]

On 16/04/2023 at 08:57, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Parma Ham's gone mouldy     1,535

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Posted 12 hours ago

There are of course benefits to buying distressed assets.

We are distressed in a sporting sense and have some financial distress in that we have forward contracted some of our monies due. 

Attanasio is now moving into the kind of territory that is comfortable to him. 

You have an attractive asset owner who is about to run into difficulties paying for its basic upkeep.

The asset has inherent equity gain value that is as yet unrealised.

This puts you in the elegant position - as you have some cash that you can inject - of looking good buying equity, whilst saying all the right things of course.

You inevitably present positively as offering a brighter tomorrow by virtue of simply being someone else to the current owner. 

You then rubber-stamp this impression by throwing some sexy early money at signings, perhaps even leveraging the club a little for some eye-catching, popular - and possibly overdue - infrastructure improvements. 

This fun early dice roll gives you a reasonable shout at a promotion within a year or two. Perfect. All was ‘true’.

Or. 

The investments you inject amount to somewhere south of the current c£43m equity gain - that the thoroughly decent, though perhaps over-credulous -  current owner has, willingly or blindly,  bequeathed you .

At some point within or around the c£43million ‘invested’ mark, you take on new American cousins to ‘help get you to the next level’ or you receive an offer ‘you can’t refuse’.

How generous were you? 

Parma 

NCFC is not distressed Parma. It isn’t going back up , but it owns assets, has confirmed season ticket income , a decent commercial position . 
 

Distressed is being £100m in debt to an owner that doesn’t want to be an owner anymore. Of a team in the third division. With very little assets , and a dreadful commercial position where the owner ends up having to put his name on the front of shirt . 
 

If we became THAT distressed then MA could expect to buy cheap and the owners would be grateful to be out . We are a long way from that at the moment . 
 

Sadly when you become that distressed there really is only one way to go , as ITFC are at last demonstrating. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Graham Paddons Beard

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

Understood and agreed @Graham Paddons Beard…forgive my lack of clarity.

The purchase of shares is an essentially private transaction between Delia-Michael and Attanasio.  

The ‘distressed asset’ I refer to is Delia’s ability to suitably fund and bankroll a top level football club. 

Delia and Michael oversee the ‘self-sustaining’ model that de-facto decrees that no directorial or shareholder funds are required to be invested. This is unusual in top level football. I don’t think it is unreasonable to categorise it as a necessity rather than (or as much as) a choice. 

There is now sporting distress in that - under current financial parameters - the business is demonstrably uncompetitive at the top level. 

In terms of negotiations between the parties over the purchase of shares, there will be little doubt that sporting competitiveness (ergo Finance) will be a major draw. Attanasio was not a Norwich fan after all. 

I do not believe that Delia and Michael would be handing over effective control of Norwich City Football Club - via eventual sale and-or dilution of their majority shareholding - to Mark Attanasio, were it not for this ‘financial (and sporting) distress’. 

Parma 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

I’ve just thought of the right question @Graham Paddons Beard….…

.if Delia and Michael wouldn’t ideally sell to Attanasio without some element of financial-sporting-competitive distress…

…would Attanasio buy were it not so?

Parma

Edited April 17, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,449]

3 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Understood and agreed @Graham Paddons Beard…forgive my lack of clarity.

 

The ‘distressed asset’ I refer to is Delia’s ability to suitably fund and bankroll a top level football club. 

Delia and Michael oversee the ‘self-sustaining’ model that de-facto decrees that no directorial or shareholder funds are required to be invested. This is unusual in top level football. I don’t think it is unreasonable to categorise it as a necessity rather than (or as much as) a choice. 

There is now sporting distress in that - under current financial parameters - the business is demonstrably uncompetitive at the top level. 

. 

I do not believe that Delia and Michael would be handing over effective control of Norwich City Football Club - via eventual sale and-or dilution of their majority shareholding - to Mark Attanasio, were it not for this ‘financial (and sporting) distress’. 

Parma 

Completely agree Parma . Very well put. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

Compare this squad to 2020-21 how many are good enough?

By Petriix,  1 hour ago in Main Discussion - Norwich City 

Petriix     2,044

 

Posted 1 hour ago

Let's be honest, Gunn, Aarons, Omobamidele and maybe Sara would have got into Farke's first 11. In every other position on the pitch we're worse.

We can pontificate about formations and managers but the ultimate truth is that the players simply aren't good enough. The alarming thing is that we're now doubling down on these players by giving new contracts to the likes of Idah and Hernandez. 

This is the worst I've seen the team since our relegation to League One. There's no mitigation for the mismanagement of the squad. We've spent more money than at any point in our history yet have very little to show for it.

We need a major rebuild but I can't envisage signing anything like the quality of player we found before and we don't have anything like the level of academy output that Farke had to call on.

The decline undeniably started in summer 2021. We've been clinging onto the faint hope of the playoffs and that has somehow masked the depth of the issues. The truth is that, on current form, we're not even a top half Championship club and probably wouldn't get out of League One. 

—————————-

I hope @Petriix won’t be offended if I repost this here, as it leads so nicely into what I was going to add as the State of the Nation completely reveals itself to any left doubting. 

I think Onel is a super guy, I love his ink and his undoubted passion and gratefulness to Norwich City for his current life and career.

However.

It is instructive to take ourselves back to the Championship winning side of ‘21 and start from that point. 

If you had told yourself that come spring ‘23 you would be pleased that Onel had signed a 2 year contract, was arguably our only weapon-like player, was important to the first XI and that you were also quite hoping that Dowell would sign a new contract and stay - as he was pivotal to our creativity moving forwards - then I simply do not believe that you would have believed yourself.

As for any current players getting in the ‘21 team, I do not think Gunn would dislodge the Krul of then - he does not yet have the influence on others around him in my view. Much as I like what Omobamidele can become, he isn’t there yet and would not get in that side. The current Aarons is far from the dangerous, effective, scampering, recovering player of then and would be replaced. Sara is far too inconsistent and still notably lacks  positional discipline. 

That Onel and Dowell will be relatively well paid for this level also means that we are investing quite a lot in them - contextually within our self-sustaining means - indicating that they will be quite central going forwards.

We would all quite happily have Onel and Dowell at 18 and 19 in the squad, though at 10 and 11 it indicates the huge drop in qualitative standards from ‘21.

We have sold our best talent, we have failed to replace our most important structural player (loan), we have spent c£60m, we have forward contracted our parachute payments, we have run down the clock on our only real goal scorer, we have leant out for free our biggest name investment, we have yet to see any return at all on our likely-to-be record signing, we have a vastly reduced playing group total valuation. Indeed we have few players who would command or attract meaningful fees. 

As we have said, we are not comparing ourselves to anyone other than who we were. 

Parma  

Edited April 22, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Big O 225]

Pretty depressing overall @Parma Ham's gone mouldy!

As I think most of this forum would happily appoint you to replace Stuart Webber, what would your immediate priorities be?

I’ll give it a crack from my simplistic mind and then hopefully you can add some valuable insight.

1. We clearly have a budget deficit, hopefully this has reduced with some big earners (pukki, Byram, Hudgill, Cantrell) already off the wage bill but we will need to move anyone off the wage bill who has a disproportionate cost to the team and quickly. For me that means move on krul, ideally Gibson and Rashica

2. convince Newcastle to buy James Maddison for a sell on fee!

3. work out what sellable assets your happy to dispose off, for me Sargent is a no brainier, get what you can, similar with Aarons- he has to go whilst he has a reasonable value (ideally £10m), and despite him showing real promise I would also sell Sara if someone comes in with silly money (I.e £20-25m)

4. Make a manager choice. Given the core of your team is going to be Gunn, Hanley (when fit), Ombamadelie, McClean, Dowell, Hernandez, Gibbs, Nunez then work out what type of football suits them and how you can augment them. Personally I would change at the end of the season but I do also get the fact that having Wagner who has had a chance to do a proper assessment of the team is perhaps a bonus as long as we can bring In the right players 

5. Beggars can’t be choosers, we have to maximise what ever money we can and spend it on key positions. For us that is a defensive midfielder and a striker. We then have to identify options in the free transfer and loan markets to fill in a new right back,  a centre half, a winger. We might have to go back to taking a punt on damaged goods like a trybull and Leitner (not actually trybull and Leitner!)  if we are to get a chance of value

6. Rebuild relationships with the local press and have some open honest sessions with the fan base

7. convince Elon Musk, twitter is a waste of money and that he should give himself a new pet project. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Big O

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

5 minutes ago, Big O said:

Pretty depressing overall @Parma Ham's gone mouldy!

As I think most of this forum would happily appoint you to replace Stuart Webber, what would your immediate priorities be?

I’ll give it a crack from my simplistic mind and then hopefully you can add some valuable insight.

1. We clearly have a budget deficit, hopefully this has reduced with some big earners (pukki, Byram, Hudgill, Cantrell) already off the wage bill but we will need to move anyone off the wage bill who has a disproportionate cost to the team and quickly. For me that means move on krul, ideally Gibson and Rashica

2. convince Newcastle to buy James Maddison for a sell on fee!

3. work out what sellable assets your happy to dispose off, for me Sargent is a no brainier, get what you can, similar with Aarons- he has to go whilst he has a reasonable value (ideally £10m), and despite him showing real promise I would also sell Sara if someone comes in with silly money (I.e £20-25m)

4. Make a manager choice. Given the core of your team is going to be Gunn, Hanley (when fit), Ombamadelie, McClean, Dowell, Hernandez, Gibbs, Nunez then work out what type of football suits them and how you can augment them. Personally I would change at the end of the season but I do also get the fact that having Wagner who has had a chance to do a proper assessment of the team is perhaps a bonus as long as we can bring In the right players 

5. Beggars can’t be choosers, we have to maximise what ever money we can and spend it on key positions. For us that is a defensive midfielder and a striker. We then have to identify options in the free transfer and loan markets to fill in a new right back,  a centre half, a winger. We might have to go back to taking a punt on damaged goods like a trybull and Leitner if we are to get a chance of value

6. Rebuild relationships with the local press and have some open honest sessions with the fan base

7. convince Elon Musk, twitter is a waste of money and that he should give himself a new pet project. 

I’ll think about this @Big O….

Parma 

[KeiranShikari 1,433]

13 minutes ago, Big O said:

 

3. work out what sellable assets your happy to dispose off, for me Sargent is a no brainier, get what you can, similar with Aarons- he has to go whilst he has a reasonable value (ideally £10m), and despite him showing real promise I would also sell Sara if someone comes in with silly money (I.e £20-25m)

 

It's fascinating, isn't it.

I honestly think that keeping both Sara and Sargent will be pretty important for Webber this summer. Whilst we're almost certainly in sell to buy territory I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that both will be more consistent and therefore more valuable next season. Sara because he'll be fully acclimatised to English football and Sargent because he'll presumably get to play in his natural position.

For sales I'd predict that we're looking to move a majority of this batch. Aarons, Rashica, Giannoulis, Tsolis, Placheta. I wouldn't even be shocked to see a Krul or a Gibson moved on if we could find a buyer (maybe we can call uncle Gibson at Boro).

There really aren't many in this squad I'd be bothered about losing that's for sure. 

 

[Barham Blitz 661]

As usual I agree with all of what  @Parma Ham's gone mouldy has outlined above.

But it's the lack of any clear idea as to what we are trying to do which is the most disappointing element for me.  I have no issue with keeping Dowell who I actually rate at this level within his own narrow skillset - albeit he is very much a downgrade on Emi even in an attacking sense before we get on to Emi's underrated defensive pressing contribution - as long as we are playing a formation which works to his strengths.  I'm not sure that we are or indeed will be.  There is a case for pace on one side and guile on the other to disrupt where the opposition hold a line but it is slightly depressing that the best option there remains Onel for all his charms.  We've sent him out on loan twice.  Oh for the days when we were tactically coherent and confident enough to back ourselves to play our way through anyway - and had the players in Emi and an on song Cantwell to do it.

Sara seems to be to be a natural 10 rather than an 8 for the reasons you have outlined.  Whilst Gibbs has done well slightly further forward I still believe that the two of them should be switched as there does seem to be a footballing brain in there which belies his 20 years and he would be more valuable further back.  But I doubt that Sara will be here next season - the purported interest in him does seem to be being rather trumpeted at the moment by the club if indirectly.

The rest of it has been pretty dire but is not unfixable with a few structural additions.  A mobile and physical CDM who can actually still receive the ball under pressure and find a teammate.  Similarly for a new CB.  A left back who can reliably contribute in both directions.  A striker who can actually finish (although what sort of striker that should be is still very much open to debate in the absence of any evident coherent style of play.  It could still be Sargent with a run of games.  Even with the new contract Idah needs a loan and a run of games somewhere still IMO.  Those games should not be with us at his current level so we'll need at least one and possibly two players there.  Perhaps Pukki moving on and leaving his previously guaranteed starting position vacant will open up some more opportunities there.

The issue for me is that we (and by that I mean Webber and Wagner) don't seem to have an idea of what that structure is going to be - whatever people's views on Farke were (and I'm on record as being a Farke-ite) at least it was clear what he was trying to do which made recruitment a more straightforward affair.  I'm not even sure we know what we are going to be looking for in the close season.

At the moment we seem to still be half preparing for a Premiership campaign the likelihood of which is looking further away every performance.  And by that I don't mean promotion this season either.

The summer is going to be either very interesting or fundamentally depressing.  We seem - in poker parlance - to be holding some unmatched picture cards and shovelling chips in whilst very much hoping that something turns up to make them valuable without really knowing what that is going to be.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

17 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

As usual I agree with all of what  @Parma Ham's gone mouldy has outlined above.

But it's the lack of any clear idea as to what we are trying to do which is the most disappointing element for me.  I have no issue with keeping Dowell who I actually rate at this level within his own narrow skillset - albeit he is very much a downgrade on Emi even in an attacking sense before we get on to Emi's underrated defensive pressing contribution - as long as we are playing a formation which works to his strengths.  I'm not sure that we are or indeed will be.  There is a case for pace on one side and guile on the other to disrupt where the opposition hold a line but it is slightly depressing that the best option there remains Onel for all his charms.  We've sent him out on loan twice.  Oh for the days when we were tactically coherent and confident enough to back ourselves to play our way through anyway - and had the players in Emi and an on song Cantwell to do it.

Sara seems to be to be a natural 10 rather than an 8 for the reasons you have outlined.  Whilst Gibbs has done well slightly further forward I still believe that the two of them should be switched as there does seem to be a footballing brain in there which belies his 20 years and he would be more valuable further back.  But I doubt that Sara will be here next season - the purported interest in him does seem to be being rather trumpeted at the moment by the club if indirectly.

The rest of it has been pretty dire but is not unfixable with a few structural additions.  A mobile and physical CDM who can actually still receive the ball under pressure and find a teammate.  Similarly for a new CB.  A left back who can reliably contribute in both directions.  A striker who can actually finish (although what sort of striker that should be is still very much open to debate in the absence of any evident coherent style of play.  It could still be Sargent with a run of games.  Even with the new contract Idah needs a loan and a run of games somewhere still IMO.  Those games should not be with us at his current level so we'll need at least one and possibly two players there.  Perhaps Pukki moving on and leaving his previously guaranteed starting position vacant will open up some more opportunities there.

The issue for me is that we (and by that I mean Webber and Wagner) don't seem to have an idea of what that structure is going to be - whatever people's views on Farke were (and I'm on record as being a Farke-ite) at least it was clear what he was trying to do which made recruitment a more straightforward affair.  I'm not even sure we know what we are going to be looking for in the close season.

At the moment we seem to still be half preparing for a Premiership campaign the likelihood of which is looking further away every performance.  And by that I don't mean promotion this season either.

The summer is going to be either very interesting or fundamentally depressing.  We seem - in poker parlance - to be holding some unmatched picture cards and shovelling chips in whilst very much hoping that something turns up to make them valuable without really knowing what that is going to be.

Very good as usual @Barham Blitz

Parma 

[Tetteys Jig 830]

Meh for all this that and the other about Webber etc. fundamentally, the club cannot afford to sustain at the current level so this depressing cycle will long continue until some sugar daddy can bankroll things. The whole “self funded” ideology is a load of ****

[Monty13 2,248]

4 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

We have sold our best talent, we have failed to replace our most important structural player (loan), we have spent c£60m, we have forward contracted our parachute payments, we have run down the clock on our only real goal scorer, we have leant out for free our biggest name investment, we have yet to see any return at all on our likely-to-be record signing, we have a vastly reduced playing group total valuation. Indeed we have few players who would command or attract meaningful fees. 

The absolute crux of why we are where we are summed up pretty concisely in that paragraph. It’s been an abysmal failure of building on the footballing promise we held only 2 years ago.

To have gone backwards quite so far so quickly and have so little to show for all that initial success in terms of the current squad is so depressing.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Monty13