Parma’s State of the Nation

[repman 635]

49 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

One of the differences between Pep and Klopp is that the latter uses the fullbacks to provide width and overload whereas the former has them tuck inside in front of the centre-backs to cover any counters.  Wagner very much veers toward the Klopp end of that spectrum !  But if following concession the initial press doesn't result in another turnover there is a very large hole in front of that back three with essentially only Sara in it (and occasionally not even him ...)  Not helped by the naturally attack minded Onel, Sargent and Dowell as the other midfield or 3/4 players.

I think Pep and Klopp are both equally interested in stopping counter attacks, the whole point of gegenpressing allows you to commit players forward and then have them in positions to win the ball back to sustain the attack. The difference between Pep and Klopp isn't really in their positional structures but the personnel they have to enforce them. Klopp has rather functional midfielders and full backs who are very good at going up and down the pitch, Pep has the opposite you would say. Wagner too will be interested in this, I think I can remember hear the words 'rest defence' being shouted in one of the training vids. Where Wagner's weakness seems to lie is in the earlier build up phase, which was the main reason we lost to Burnley. Our pressing against them wasn't great, but I think Wagner's focus since joining has been to create some structure when we have the ball, which he has done resonably well imo. The full blooded pressing will come later, probably next season at this point.

[Barham Blitz 652]

6 minutes ago, repman said:

I think Pep and Klopp are both equally interested in stopping counter attacks, the whole point of gegenpressing allows you to commit players forward and then have them in positions to win the ball back to sustain the attack. The difference between Pep and Klopp isn't really in their positional structures but the personnel they have to enforce them. Klopp has rather functional midfielders and full backs who are very good at going up and down the pitch, Pep has the opposite you would say. Wagner too will be interested in this, I think I can remember hear the words 'rest defence' being shouted in one of the training vids. Where Wagner's weakness seems to lie is in the earlier build up phase, which was the main reason we lost to Burnley. Our pressing against them wasn't great, but I think Wagner's focus since joining has been to create some structure when we have the ball, which he has done resonably well imo. The full blooded pressing will come later, probably next season at this point.

I sort of agree with your general point if not the specifics with Pep - he absolutely tucks the fullbacks inside in front of the two CBs to stop counter-attacks.  Although if by that you meant that Klopp has that position (ie. the area of CDM in possession) occupied by functional midfielders rather than fullbacks then i suppose it is a different way of saying the same thing.

Your point about genpressing I do agree with - but I'm not sure that our version of those functional midfielders are that functional in the current tactical set up given that Kenny is by default the most defensive minded of them - that was essentially my point.  

But an interesting view in terms of working out how Wagner would be likely to go with this moving forward.  Going to be fascinating to watch.

 

[repman 635]

56 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

I sort of agree with your general point if not the specifics with Pep - he absolutely tucks the fullbacks inside in front of the two CBs to stop counter-attacks.  Although if by that you meant that Klopp has that position (ie. the area of CDM in possession) occupied by functional midfielders rather than fullbacks then i suppose it is a different way of saying the same thing.

Your point about genpressing I do agree with - but I'm not sure that our version of those functional midfielders are that functional in the current tactical set up given that Kenny is by default the most defensive minded of them - that was essentially my point.  

But an interesting view in terms of working out how Wagner would be likely to go with this moving forward.  Going to be fascinating to watch.

 

Yeah it was more a point about finding different solutions to the same problem. 

I'd agree that Kenny and Sara possibly aren't the best options if you're looking at the defensive/pressing side of the game but I think there's a balance to be struck, certainly at championship level. As a side who will be the more dominant one in most of our games, using pressing as the only means of chance creation will probably not work. Maybe a very well organised pressing side would, but that would be near on impossible to instil halfway through a season, with games coming thick and fast. Generally, for counter-pressing to work you need to get the ball into the dangerous positions to then steal it back. In an ideal situation you either succeed in winning it back immediately or the defender clears it, upon which you start again. However if you aren't consistent in getting the ball into those dangerous areas then it can be hard to build the pressure (in both senses). That's where our current midfield two come in. In possession, Kenny is one of the better passers in the division, particularly at progressing the ball up the pitch, and Sara has got better and better as he's settled in. I'll be interested to see if Wagner makes any changes at the weekend, Nunez is in my view an even bigger plus on the ball but may fall short defensively.

[Barham Blitz 652]

15 minutes ago, repman said:

Yeah it was more a point about finding different solutions to the same problem. 

I'd agree that Kenny and Sara possibly aren't the best options if you're looking at the defensive/pressing side of the game but I think there's a balance to be struck, certainly at championship level. As a side who will be the more dominant one in most of our games, using pressing as the only means of chance creation will probably not work. Maybe a very well organised pressing side would, but that would be near on impossible to instil halfway through a season, with games coming thick and fast. Generally, for counter-pressing to work you need to get the ball into the dangerous positions to then steal it back. In an ideal situation you either succeed in winning it back immediately or the defender clears it, upon which you start again. However if you aren't consistent in getting the ball into those dangerous areas then it can be hard to build the pressure (in both senses). That's where our current midfield two come in. In possession, Kenny is one of the better passers in the division, particularly at progressing the ball up the pitch, and Sara has got better and better as he's settled in. I'll be interested to see if Wagner makes any changes at the weekend, Nunez is in my view an even bigger plus on the ball but may fall short defensively.

Makes sense.  Particularly with reference to the Burnley game.  As you say, for the most part in the championship there is a balance to be struck, but might be worth bearing in mind when we play the top teams.

As an aside , I don't know if it was my imagination but Nunez looked to have bulked up slightly when he came on at the weekend - maybe that is in recognition of that falling short defensively observation.  He did seem to struggle with the physicality aspect of the championship.

Still don't understand Wagner's omission of Gibbs mind you !

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

9 hours ago, shefcanary said:

@Parma Ham's gone mouldy thanks for your first update on Wagner's approach.

You have addressed the attacking weapons option that Wagner seems to be pursuing, but I think you would accept also that until we have solved the issue of defensive midfield control we are not progressing fast at all. And then there is the issue of on field leadership.

I know that it is probably too early to draw any definitive clues at this stage as to where Wagner is heading, but given how we lost against Burnley I think these two areas are more important to resolve at this stage than the attack. The attack has shown against lesser sides it can provide solutions, but elsewhere we continue to struggle, badly!

At this stage I am only really noting the clear statements that Wagner is making (by word or deed) to get indications of principles, intentions and patterns of play. 

My Italian spider sense would feel that any overt -elevated focus-discussion-comment on Sargent-Idah particularly, indicates a need to offset Pukki. This can be in terms of reliance, back-up or departure of course. I strongly fear it is the latter. Possibly unless we win the play offs. 

So it’s not that I haven’t addressed the rest, Wagner hasn’t especially commented on it. He lifted Onel and Dowellinho. Both of whom have some strengths and clear weaknesses. @PurpleCanaryrightly pointed out a while back that Onel - in strict definition - is a sort of sort of weapon. Wagner recognises that too. He uses Dowell’s intelligence and better spacial awareness to some degree to offset Onel’s callow tactical limitations. Though they both have such obvious weaknesses, that confidence can only camouflage them for so long. Better teams will be all over this. 

I would argue that Webber is more the driver of midfield development, in that the horse has already bolted, the money has been spent via Sara and Nunez, both of whom polish the new South American links. They are becoming somewhat more prominent, though whether this is synonymous with effective I am not at all sure. Again some good things to like, some clear weaknesses. Good weaponish set piece deliveries from both, though after seeing them early on I expressed a reservation that both of their positional discipline was weak. I have seen nothing to indicate since that that initial fear was misplaced .

I certainly agree with @Barham Blitz that the lack of both the Gibbs role and Gibbs himself is a negative and to be lamented. 

The new MacLean version of the role, with added lateral swapping and interchange is nice, though not quite the pivotal pivot and tactical keystone that a good defensive midfield screen can be.

MacLean is certainly considered a dressing room architect in a somewhat quiet team with a lack of fixed points. 

I would strongly suggest that this is the explanation for Krul’s inclusion too.

On the same basis anyone thinking that a few rickets from Grizzly will see him axed anytime soon are also well wide of the mark.

I think Wagner interprets character as-like a fixed point. I think that this is a valid coaching approach. I think it also indicates how badly we lack footballing fixed points in the 1st xi. 

Parma 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[shefcanary 2,392]

Thanks Parma, I feel a bit guilty applying some pressure to get your views, but as always you responded well. It's to be hoped Norwich can rise to the challenge in the future. Gibbs is a conundrum no doubt, but I had sensed he was a little off the pace following his recent injury. I can't see him playing anywhere other than the role taken by McLean recently, so when fully fit that really does pose a big selection headache for Wagner.

[Robert N. LiM 4,314]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

after seeing them early on I expressed a reservation that both of their positional discipline was weak. I have seen nothing to indicate since that that initial fear was misplaced .

How far do you think this is a coachable skill, and how far an innate quality. Seems to my untrained eye that, for instance, being a good DM is probably about 90% positional discipline. And yet there are hardly any good DMs and they are, or should be, worth their weight in gold. Which suggests to me that it's an innate quality. Be interested in your thoughts.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

4 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

How far do you think this is a coachable skill, and how far an innate quality. Seems to my untrained eye that, for instance, being a good DM is probably about 90% positional discipline. And yet there are hardly any good DMs and they are, or should be, worth their weight in gold. Which suggests to me that it's an innate quality. Be interested in your thoughts.

A nice point and a good question well expressed Robert.. 

Any good coach would-should think that they can improve players, though I think some particular roles and positions lend themselves to certain personality, character and mental tendencies and traits more than others. 

I personally feel that answering your question has a more psychological, than tactical-technical answer.

When I coach younger players I am always looking for mindsets and natural tendencies. In very simple terms I might entirely overlook a single-minded, selfish, self-obsessed attitude in a striker, whilst I would simultaneously search out a selfless, diligent, fearful worker with a strong sense of camaraderie for a deep midfield pivot role that he or she had never thought of before. 

The ability to sense danger must also be allied to a willing desire to cover for others, to have hard work somewhat unnoticed, to have others get the attention and limelight. To have a sense of duty, to relish the opportunity to put fires out before they start, to solve problems before they arise in return for no one ever being grateful or even noticing. 

As a coach I always, always find such a player. I build around them. Work intently with them. Teach them to see what others don’t. Show them (quietly, privately) that I see what they do. That I value it. (Quietly, privately) more than any other role. They are my unseen teacher’s pet. I coach them harder and with more detail and attention than any other. 

That is how important they are. 

I cannot conceive of the modern game without such a player. Even if you must compromise a player who has some weapons, who can do other things that you then restrict them from doing. You must have this player. If you don’t have them, you must buy them or make them. At any cost. 

Honestly Robert? I think the reason we don’t make many is because the above takes intelligent teaching. It takes time. It takes  willing pupil, with intelligence and dedication. It is - frankly - quite a classroom-based process of education. It won’t ‘shine’ that the work has been done. It’s therefore not glamorous for teacher or pupil. If you work with younger players you are planting trees under whose shade you shall never sit. 

Technically - literally in terms of the technique required - it is not that difficult. In terms of the tactical, it is 3D chess. I think it is Souness who has referred repeatedly to one of his colleagues, saying something like ‘he had the gift of knowing when to stand still’. I think that this was a skill also highly prized by Paisley and Fagan. I understand exactly what they mean. In the maelstrom of high energy modern football, it is conversely a very, very difficult thing to do. You have to have great self-contained control. Almost a sense of seeing your role as above the game around you. 

Parma 

 

[Nuff Said 5,117]

54 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

It’s therefore not glamorous for teacher or pupil. If you work with younger players you are planting trees under whose shade you shall never sit. 

Isn’t that why we have an academy? To invest time and teaching in young players which will bear fruit serval years later?

[Big O 225]

As always a great thread and debate. I just see Wagner at the moment trying to get us on the front foot and play to the strengths of the players he does have in his squad and see how far it can take us.

I previously said in a different thread about the new manager that we almost potentially needed 2 different ones; firstly a motivator this season to see if they can somehow get some momentum and belief into a group of individuals and have a free hit at getting into the playoffs and then secondly someone to rebuild us in the summer to get a team and a pattern of play etc.

I for one won’t read too much into Wagners style over what is remaining this season but I do think there are some good components for him to build off this summer but there are going to have to be some big decisions. Part of me is slightly worried that the Idah contract is based around the fact that Pukki will clearly leave and Sargent maybe our only sellable asset of size. 

[chicken 2,624]

3 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

How far do you think this is a coachable skill, and how far an innate quality. Seems to my untrained eye that, for instance, being a good DM is probably about 90% positional discipline. And yet there are hardly any good DMs and they are, or should be, worth their weight in gold. Which suggests to me that it's an innate quality. Be interested in your thoughts.

I know you didn't ask me... but positional discipline is about game time in that set up. At least that has been my experience under different coaches through my own amateur playing career.

For my uni team I played left back and the manager wanted me to call the line. Sounds easy, but it's not hugely if you're not used to it. By the end of the season I was used to it. I'm also not naturally left footed, and when you are playing in a position where you need to predominantly use your left foot, it can take a while.

This season as a veteran, I was asked to play CB. I have covered there once or twice in 24yrs, but to start and play entire games was something I was not confident about. However, I played alongside someone who had played nothing but CB and pretty quickly I was picking up off him.

I would say good, intelligent footballers - which many are these days - will know the roles expected of them and can adapt pretty quickly. The biggest difficulty is stability. If you have one player alongside you, who knows what they are doing, you can learn pretty quickly.

This season, I would think we have played quite a number of midfield combinations, without anyone really holding down a place consistently. I suspect the idea was that Hayden would have been that DM lynchpin but is also pretty switched on and possibly dropping below his level to find new career momentum. We know he is into his tactical and positional study.

It hasn't worked out and for the majority of this season we have had Nunez and Sara who are both experiencing new cultures to live in as well as new footballing cultures. Alongside them we have also seen Gibbs, who also hadn't played any games in our senior side. Three players all looking to experience things at this level for the first time. Worth noting that Nunez and Sara are not particularly old either.

Most definitely something that can be developed. I would say it's to do with space awareness, and generally, if players haven't an aptitude for that before they get their first professional contract, it is unlikely they will earn one. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,314]

23 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Honestly Robert? I think the reason we don’t make many is because the above takes intelligent teaching. It takes time. It takes  willing pupil, with intelligence and dedication. It is - frankly - quite a classroom-based process of education. It won’t ‘shine’ that the work has been done. It’s therefore not glamorous for teacher or pupil. If you work with younger players you are planting trees under whose shade you shall never sit. 

thanks for the reply, thoughtful and interesting as always. The coaching qualities you list above seem to describe my impression of a German head coach we used to have, name escapes me. Daniel something. I guess what you're saying is that it takes even longer than the five years he was here, and that the key work is done lower down the food chain anyway.

[Robert N. LiM 4,314]

20 hours ago, chicken said:

I know you didn't ask me

Glad you answered though. Very interesting reply. Cheers.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

thanks for the reply, thoughtful and interesting as always. The coaching qualities you list above seem to describe my impression of a German head coach we used to have, name escapes me. Daniel something. I guess what you're saying is that it takes even longer than the five years he was here, and that the key work is done lower down the food chain anyway.

Yes, though you can convert an intelligent player to the role. 

MacLean does have quite a lot of the qualities, certainly the psychological-diligence-duty character elements, which I believe is almost certainly why he has been chosen. 

The fact that his feet are not the fastest, progression and 3/4 qualities are not terrific (when he has less time), plus that his good work in both boxes at set pieces is not compromised, I think explains his selection for the role by Wagner. Wagner is also shoe-horning leaders onto the physical spine of the side at this early stage (perfectly reasonably).

The more active, lateral shape-shifting nature of the way Wagner has MacLean playing the role, is really interesting, though I refer again to the ‘great talent of knowing when to stand still’ above, that I do not at all see in MacLean. I have always felt he is over-active in his play, leaving good zonal spaces to help others who have made a half mistake, when the overall picture should have him stand still and guard his key zone. This is so, so important. The little we saw from Hayden indicated to me he had some of this skill. 

For this reason, I think MacLean’s stay in this role will be reasonably temporary. He will be exposed against better teams in this way. You must know when to NOT help out the individual if it compromises the keystone of the whole team tactical position. As Guardiola knows well - and exploits regularly - the weakened tactical key spaces are often far from the site of the original catalysing tactical error. 

A Daley Blind would know it spatially and structurally (like a fine zonal marker), a Skipp-type would sit-hold and occasionally dynamically spring when they were sure that helping the individual didn’t compromise the team shape (or they wouldn’t do it). 

As with @Barham Blitz I hope Gibbs is being worked closely with and prepared for this role. He is the one. You can even see it in his character. If Norwich announced they were buying no-one and pivoting on-believing in Gibbs’ ability, I would also be quite happy with that. 

Parma 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Robert N. LiM 4,314]

2 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

3/4 qualities

forgive my ignorance - what are these?

McLean in that role reminds me a bit of Darel Russell playing at the base of the diamond for Lambert in League One. He got away with it at that level... For both of them, it's all a bit Dr Johnson's dog.

[Robert N. LiM 4,314]

4 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

‘great talent of knowing when to stand still’ above, that I do not at all see in MacLean.

you can say that again

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

forgive my ignorance - what are these?

McLean in that role reminds me a bit of Darel Russell playing at the base of the diamond for Lambert in League One. He got away with it at that level... For both of them, it's all a bit Dr Johnson's dog.

3/4 spaces are those which sit between the typical formations of opposition teams, notably between the centre backs and the full backs and the respective midfield positions in front of them. 

If you think of Cantwell staying deeper than a winger would, drifting inside to collect, then moving forwards, perhaps on an inside diagonal, going beyond the opposition midfield, though short of the defensive line. Not only that, but also gliding in the space between - though still short of - the (say) opposition right centre back and right back. He is now in a 3/4 space.*
 

Naturally fluid 3/4 movers are valuable and dangerous because they constantly ask questions of the opposition structure: who is marking him? When? What if he moves into that space? Defensively who is half covering the man who is currently responsible for defending the 3/4 player?

in very basic terms, centre backs are not typically hugely keen to step into midfield, fullbacks are often not brilliant at moving centrally and playing off both sides (or more 3D play vs the 2D comfort of a ‘half pitch’ (with the touch line as a tactical comfort blanket pacifier). 

Wingers are typically not great at moving into deeper defensive central midfield positions, central midfielders don’t like getting dragged out of the engine room. Particularly not just to track a ‘floaty one’ who is somebody else’s job anyway.

That’s all a bit stereotypical and out-of-date, good modern players are much more flexible and fluid than they were, though natural 3/4 movers are brilliant at disrupting opposition fixed shapes. 

Oh. Though often if they are fluid movers going forward, they are also a bit positionally indisciplined when being forced to defend…..🤗

Coaching is inevitably endless compromises, striving for that beautifully balanced plus-minus equation ….💫👌👌🙏🏽🙏🏽

Parma

Edited February 9, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[mastoola 183]

On 07/02/2023 at 21:10, ricardo said:

Well lets hope Wagner is right but to me it all looks a bit thin on the ground.

What was Sargent's stats when he played striker?

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

3/4 spaces are those which sit between the typical formations of opposition teams, notably between the centre backs and the full backs and the respective midfield positions in front of them. 

If you think of Cantwell staying deeper than a winger would, drifting inside to collect, then moving forwards, perhaps on an inside diagonal, going beyond the opposition midfield, though short of the defensive line. Not only that, but also gliding in the space between - though still short of - the (say) opposition right centre back and right back. He is now in a 3/4 space.*
 

Naturally fluid 3/4 movers are valuable and dangerous because they constantly ask questions of the opposition structure: who is marking him? When? What if he moves into that space? Defensively who is half covering the man who is currently responsible for defending the 3/4 player?

in very basic terms, centre backs are not typically hugely keen to step into midfield, fullbacks are often not brilliant at moving centrally and playing off both sides (or more 3D play vs the 2D comfort of a ‘half pitch’ (with the touch line as a tactical comfort blanket pacifier). 

Wingers are typically not great at moving into deeper defensive central midfield positions, central midfielders don’t like getting dragged out of the engine room. Particularly not just to track a ‘floaty one’ who is somebody else’s job anyway.

That’s all a bit stereotypical and out-of-date, good modern players are much more flexible and fluid than they were, though natural 3/4 movers are brilliant at disrupting opposition fixed shapes. 

Oh. Though often if they are fluid movers going forward, they are also a bit positionally indisciplined when being forced to defend…..🤗

Coaching is inevitably endless compromises, striving for that beautifully balanced plus-minus equation ….💫👌👌🙏🏽🙏🏽

Parma

@Robert N. LiM
*Increasingly you see coaches divide the pitch up horizontally and vertically. You can think of the lines of 442 if you like here for simplicity. The 3/4 space is both between the horizontal line of the midfield 4 and the back 4 (where no-one is standing), though also a exists in the vertical spaces between opposition centre backs and full backs (where also no-one is standing). The ‘pockets’ that intersect both vertical and horizontal spaces between both are highly prized areas for disrupting the opposition. 

The role we are talking about for Gibbs should ‘lock up’ the highly fragile 3/4 spaces centrally in front of and between our own centre backs. This the kind of space that the lovely 3/4 Wes would endlessly try to get into…🤗💫 (I think that there might be a joke there too 👌)…

Parma 

[Robert N. LiM 4,314]

18 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

3/4 spaces are those which sit between the typical formations of opposition teams, notably between the centre backs and the full backs and the respective midfield positions in front of them. 

thanks @Parma Ham's gone mouldy - I'm with you.

[Robert N. LiM 4,314]

17 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

The role we are talking about for Gibbs should ‘lock up’ the highly fragile 3/4 spaces centrally in front of and between our own centre backs. This the kind of space that the lovely 3/4 Wes would endlessly try to get into…🤗💫 (I think that there might be a joke there too 👌)…

I loved Wes so much, for precisely those reasons.

I went to the England Norway game in the Euros, knowing shamefully little about women's football. I couldn't believe how good the England no4 was. Just sitting in front of the back four, filling those spaces you were talking about (they were especially huge in the second half when Norway retreated to try and keep the score in single figures...), running the entire game.

Turned out it was Keira Walsh: what a footballer she is. Going to provocatively suggest she's the best English DM currently playing. By comparison, Declan Rice is just a rich man's McLean. Barney Ronay's description of him as an energetic centaur running about is spot-on.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

On 02/11/2022 at 21:26, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Parma’s State of the Nation

Farke brought us a precise, carefully-constructed philosophy, using intelligent positional play, Dortmund-esque fan engagement, attractive sporting entertainment, though clear top level failure. 
Webber - it must be assumed - also implemented this very particular methodology throughout the youth ages. Planning purchases based on that particular style (Or?). 
Delia -  though passionate, loyal and committed - has no ‘football  money’, so the self-sustaining model is a top down necessity, as shown by the £5m fan Bond to build the training ground (via the Tifosys finance model).

Promotion to premier duly puts Webber in a difficult position: Do we accept the glass ceiling of our model or blame Farke?
The external questions were clear: 
Were the new players good enough for now? Were they investment purchases to appreciate at some future date?

The idea - surely - is that as you develop, the risk on buying youth is less, as you pay more, you buy experienced youth playing at higher levels already. Vid Tzolis, Sargent. You try to get a weapon. Vid Rashica (really?).

The ‘Pissed up window wall’ window had Klose (longevity, good quality, value), Pinto (longevity, fair quality, value), Naismith (expensive here-and-now investment, Sat on contract, nightmare -£15m), Maddison +£18m, Godfrey +£20m), so an overall window balance of say +£20m? Did we do better than this under the new model? The top level is where we are judged, where our aims are focused as per our attractively-presented 2022 Report. 

Trotsdem , top level failure occurred despite implanting an excellent, attractive, coherent playing philosophy. Record points totals had been achieved, there was a clear identity, followed by a high spend on new players. The Sporting Director had had plenty of preparation time and a free operational hand. Including with the limited ring-fenced chequebook. 

Farke (despite recently-signed 4 year contract) was summarily replaced by Smith, who was suddenly available, opportunistically persuaded, so not pre-planned. Both parties fell into each others’ arms via timing. 

Webber - I think just about understandably - just could not accept that our structural ceiling (financial-operational-sporting) had been reached, plus the further implication that his big investment signings were not successful. He just couldn’t (be seen) to accept either at that point.  

However history shows that within the parameters of owner finance this was-is as good as we can expect (particularly after first Premier season failure, which was ‘taking the money, to come back stronger next time’)

Thus the glass Norwich ceiling was concretised. No further dreaming was possible. Everything that could have been done, was done. Mistakes were perhaps the inevitable product of imperfect financial and sporting compromises. 

QED Attanasio? Or an acceleration-expansion of his involvement?

Nevertheless Sportingly Smith replacing Farke looks like correcting yesterday’s mistakes. Thus everything is a step behind where it should be. 

Smith immediately tried to solidify an exposed defence, the over-committed midfielders (particularly out of possession). A desire to counter-press effectively, stay-in-shape, not be so vulnerable on transition. 

The flaw with this approach - which has been endorsed also by the Sporting Director whose *new*  vision now also ‘aligns’ - is that the Premier League and the Championship are fundamentally, dramatically, operationally so different from each other. And for very good reason. 

At the top level you are one of the worst, so you have to defend a lot, so you come under lots of pressure and you lose a lot. So you must be pretty good at defending or have awkward weapons that others have to adjust for. 

In the second tier you are not punished much for your mistakes (relatively), you don’t need to set up to defend, lots of teams are hard-working but lack quality. And no one has any weapons (really). So you don’t need to defend so much or so well.

Farke also knew the above perfectly well. What he did was no accident. As Guardiola has repeatedly stated (including in writing if you read his books), positional play is actually a defensive tool. If you keep possession and ‘do nothing with it’, no one else has it either do they? Passing it backwards and sideways for 90 minutes is a bloody good idea against most top level teams (nil-nil is better than you will do in about 25 games). 

Of course upon demotion, very few teams can live with positional play. It takes high intelligence and it requires a level of coordinated press and defensive shape to combat, that few teams in the championship have enough players of sufficient intelligence to achieve.

So we now have a a pragmatic mercenary journeyman manager that might suit a top level team destined to defend every week and be attritional, with a structure that is hard to break down and shouldn’t get hammered every week (I appreciate that we are not seeing this, though it is-was the intention I believe).

The problem is that we are solving yesterday’s problems again. 

We don’t need to ask the players - say Cantwell - to counter press like marines. You need this at the top level. There are limits to professional footballers (at our level). They cannot chase defensive shape chickens like Gary Holt, then magically make through passes like Buendia a second later. The very, very best can do this (sometimes). We cannot buy them. So we end up neither fish, nor fowl.

The irony is that many accused Farke of doing something that needed top level players only. He proved many of you wrong. With coaching, teaching, studying of positional play principles, it spread through the club. It became second nature to many. 

I would suggest that what Smith is asking for is more geared towards top level players only. Be a machine out of possession, switch to Litmanen cool upon turnover. We’d all love to think we can do that, though try sprinting flat out for 200 metres, then beating the computer at Chess. It’s not really how the brain and body typically operates. Hence we often look disjointed, erratic and play in fits-and-starts. 

Farke chose a certain compromise. Smith is trying to pretend that no such compromises are necessary. That we can have all things. Furthermore both he and a Webber appear to think that we need ‘to be prepared for the Premier’ in the way we play now. In our current circumstances.

I think that this is fundamentally flawed. 

We need to jump the Championship hurdle - whereby you can attack teams, be expansive and overwhelm opposition if you have Pukki and players who can score regularly - first. 

This methodology is then proved (within our parameters) not to come close to working at the top level. At which point you need different tactics, a far more mechanical, low-risk, high running, high physicality, couple of expensive and strategically-protected weapons (which is where you spend all your available money). 

However there is even a further flaw. None of our players would be good enough for the top level anyway (except Pukki who’ll leave shortly anyway). We couldn’t invest enough to buy what we’d need to reframe the squad make up and approach anyway (which would also require a coaching-sporting pivot). 

So we return to our nexus points. Our sale of Buendia, our sacking of Farke, our huge relative  investments strategically in Rashica-Tzolis-Sargent. Our style pivot to a prosaic Smith-headed philosophy - even in the second tier (and is it now through the age groups? Does-can anyone teach positional play anymore?)

As fans what do we have? Identity no. Entertainment not really. Continuity not obviously. Clarity of corporate future not yet. Dreams of top level success extinguished. Unique Fan led club no longer. Money no. Investment purchases unnrealised and seemingly mostly unrealisable. Large swathes of too-good-for-Championship yesterday’s men out of contract. A huge pivot on unproven new players that have not obviously improved anything. A much smaller, cheaper squad by necessity-design.

We are chasing a chimera. Even success is just expensive and embarrassing. Though in its stead we are drifting into that awful, anonymous, disinterested purgatory of mid-table second tier quicksand. 

The ‘camels coming down Carrow Road’ were previously dismissed, now the Cowboys are embraced. 

Despite the planning, sporting strategy and legions of forecasters, it all starts to look a little ‘events dear boy, events’. 

Parma

So Wagner is neither the Messiah, nor a very naughty boy. 

I think we like him and I think he has clarity, purpose and identity. 

I think his methodology has some echoes of Farke, some structure, some higher tempo, might-just-be-Premierish attention to pressing coordination and a defensive resilience on turnover. 

So pretty much as good as we can do then. 

So the issues aren’t really the manager then. . 

Parma 

[sgncfc 1,227]

I never thought the issues were the manager. Or coaches. It has always been the players. They seldom turned up last season in the PL and they haven't turned up much this season either. Finally our supporter base appears to be starting to understand that, rather than blaming Webber, Farke, Smith, Shakespeare and whoever else they can think of. The last two years abject performances are solely down to the players - there may well have been some hangover from selling Buendia and not replacing Skipp, coupled with seeing Gilmour arrive to a fanfare and then discovering he was useless, but these guys are professionals being paid a fortune - it's unacceptable that they don't even appear to care.

In particular our supposedly better players like Pukki, Krul (last year), Aarons and Gibson (who was a very solid defender) have gone completely AWOL. Others like Giannoulis, Sargent, Idah, Hanley, Omo, Nunez and even Gunn are just not performing to the levels they are capable of. If Idah is worthy of a lucrative 5 year deal then my 4 year old grandson has got a real shot, and he can hardly kick a ball. 

People won't like this, but of the regular starters only Maclean has offered any kind of consistency - unfortunately that is a consistent 6 out of 10 rather than 8 or 9, but at least you get a regular 6. He is the POTS by a country mile.

Sara has shown glimpses, as has Hernandez. I'd persevere with those two - to be honest, pretty much everyone else in the current first XI could be moved on and we wouldn't miss them.

Hopefully once the playoffs are out of reach, Gibbs, McCallum, Kamara and a few others will get some games.

I'm not convinced that Wagner will get the chance to oversee the summer rebuild or if we will have some investor money to do it, but this is very much a lower level Champs team again next year (without Pukki) unless we do something pretty drastic.

[essex canary 495]

How is the orchestra being conducted?

[Petriix 2,834]

Oh come on, things have been far more coherent under Wagner. We're missing the creativity in midfield that Dowell brought and it's taking a bit of time to find the patterns of play in the final third. The irony is that, in the first half at least last night, the passing into and through the midfield was really working well.

There's a sense of 'nearly but not quite' at the moment. Wagner needs time to get the players performing in his system. But there is a clear plan and much progress has been made. Smith did a lot of damage and it won't be rectified overnight. But it's vastly better than it was.

Top 6 is still easily achievable. Let's not panic. 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,429]

38 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Top 6 is still easily achievable. Let's not panic. 

1 Nobody is panicking that I can see. An acceptance of our position is not panic. 

2 It most certainly isn’t easily achievable and likely won’t be achieved . We need to get results against a level of teams we haven’t so far this season. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

5 hours ago, sgncfc said:

I never thought the issues were the manager. Or coaches. It has always been the players. They seldom turned up last season in the PL and they haven't turned up much this season either. Finally our supporter base appears to be starting to understand that, rather than blaming Webber, Farke, Smith, Shakespeare and whoever else they can think of. The last two years abject performances are solely down to the players - there may well have been some hangover from selling Buendia and not replacing Skipp, coupled with seeing Gilmour arrive to a fanfare and then discovering he was useless, but these guys are professionals being paid a fortune - it's unacceptable that they don't even appear to care.

In particular our supposedly better players like Pukki, Krul (last year), Aarons and Gibson (who was a very solid defender) have gone completely AWOL. Others like Giannoulis, Sargent, Idah, Hanley, Omo, Nunez and even Gunn are just not performing to the levels they are capable of. If Idah is worthy of a lucrative 5 year deal then my 4 year old grandson has got a real shot, and he can hardly kick a ball. 

People won't like this, but of the regular starters only Maclean has offered any kind of consistency - unfortunately that is a consistent 6 out of 10 rather than 8 or 9, but at least you get a regular 6. He is the POTS by a country mile.

Sara has shown glimpses, as has Hernandez. I'd persevere with those two - to be honest, pretty much everyone else in the current first XI could be moved on and we wouldn't miss them.

Hopefully once the playoffs are out of reach, Gibbs, McCallum, Kamara and a few others will get some games.

I'm not convinced that Wagner will get the chance to oversee the summer rebuild or if we will have some investor money to do it, but this is very much a lower level Champs team again next year (without Pukki) unless we do something pretty drastic.

I think empirically-minded Norwich fans would find it very, very hard to argue with much of that. Well done 👍🏽 

It is worth mentioning that all professional footballers can do good, memorable things sometimes. 

At the top level, players are expected to do these things more or less every week.

So many threads talk of ‘frustration’ that we have ‘seen it from him…we know he can do it..’….this dreadfully misses the point that ‘quality’ is really consistency. Right up to Kevin de Bruyne (and of course Buendia).

And - as you rightly say - is why MacLean has been picked every week by every manager of different flavour and persuasion. 

 

Parma 

[All the Germans 1,075]

8 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

 

At the top level, players are expected to do these things more or less every week.

So many threads talk of ‘frustration’ that we have ‘seen it from him…we know he can do it..’….this dreadfully misses the point that ‘quality’ is really consistency. Right up to Kevin de Bruyne (and of course Buendia).

Exactly. Professional footballers are so for a reason, they can play. The two factors that influences what level they play it is obviously quality - a slight increase in quality leads to an exponential value increase; Grealish is not 2.5 times as good as Buendia  (I'd argue not much at all, but that's a different discussion) and the ability to do it every week as opposed to 1/2, 1/4 etc.

[BigFish 1,986]

15 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

So the issues aren’t really the manager then.

If not the manager, then what? And when we think we get to the bottom of that the most optimistic question is what now? One would have thought that the involvement of MA changes the constraints the club has been operating under, that led to the model and then to Webber breaking the model because a third season of EPL failure was too much for many fans to bare.

[Petriix 2,834]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

If not the manager, then what? And when we think we get to the bottom of that the most optimistic question is what now? One would have thought that the involvement of MA changes the constraints the club has been operating under, that led to the model and then to Webber breaking the model because a third season of EPL failure was too much for many fans to bare.

I'd say the issues are not just the manager. The squad has been mismanaged to the extent that we've ended up with too many players who 'should come good' individually and not enough who regularly perform to a higher standard. A huge part of the problem has been a lack of consistency in the first 11 - too much chopping and changing.

Wagner has been more consistent, but injuries have definitely not helped. We're missing that spark in the final third. With Dowell out and Cantwell gone, Onel hot and cold, we've not got anyone to unlock a stubborn defence. Kenny tries, but isn't quite the answer.

Vrancic and Stiepermann weren't ever replaced. Sargent, Idah and Tzolis don't fit that role. The less said about Rashica the better.