Maybe we haven’t quite got the recruitment right?

[nutty nigel 7,539]

4 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

You don't see why sacking a manager with no plan, is so difficult to understand?

There was a plan. It was to get the highest placed manager from the planned list. The plan was set long before Farke was sacked. The very opposite of no plan.

Btw I'm not passing judgement on the appointment or the plan but I do understand it.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by nutty nigel

[CDMullins 436]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

There was a plan. It was to get the highest placed manager from the planned list. The plan was set long before Farke was sacked. The very opposite of no plan.

 

 

If you say pineapple slowly it sounds like gullible 

[nutty nigel 7,539]

Just now, CDMullins said:

If you say pineapple slowly it sounds like gullible 

Great post Chris

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

9 hours ago, Yellow and Green said:

Nunez is a steal at 3.5m.

He had 2 good games and  has been mediocre ever since. 

I'm sure there's a good player in there, but he's not making much of an impact in my opinion, loads of lose passes and doesn't always feel like his team mates are on his wavelength.

[hogesar 9,691]

16 hours ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Recruitment hasn't been right since the season emi and teemu came in, since then it's been off every single time, even the manager recruiting hasn't been right. 

I would argue our last championship campaign was very successful too in terms of recruitment.

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

7 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

It beggars belief to read that some people think we should walk this League with our squad!

What do they base it on? The fact we won the League at a canter the last 2 times? It’s ridiculous to say it’s a great squad, when in truth it’s actually full of journeymen and relatively untried youngsters!

We had Emi and Skipp last time - two of the best players in the division in for me the key roles (playmaker talisman and defensive block) of the side, and both have shown they are at home in the PL.  We can’t currently say the same about anyone in those equivalent positions in this year’s squad. 

Hayden and Sara may yet prove what we need, we’ve not had a chance to see enough yet.

[Ulfotto 637]

7 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

It beggars belief to read that some people think we should walk this League with our squad!

What do they base it on? The fact we won the League at a canter the last 2 times? It’s ridiculous to say it’s a great squad, when in truth it’s actually full of journeymen and relatively untried youngsters!

This is so true.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,327]

21 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I would argue our last championship campaign was very successful too in terms of recruitment.

I'd respectfully disagree, we brought in Skipp who filled a gap that we should have plugged with a permanent signing, we paid 8m for a Ben Gibson who is clearly just a run of the mill championship center half, we paid 5m for Jordan hugill when we could of got Ivan Toney or Clarke-Harris for pretty much the same amount if we'd just look downwards. 

Giannoulis is probably the best part of the recruitment of that season and even then I would say only a championship starter. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by GodlyOtsemobor

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

This is just incredibly lacking in any form of understanding of the current international market when it comes to football.

Armstrong £15m, Billing £15m - just two examples of players in the English football pyramid that we wanted but were priced out of getting. Players from abroad are half the price, but due to the rules we play by post Brexit, they also have to have accumulated enough points to get a work permit.

In other words, the pool in which we have been able to recruit from has gone from a vast ocean to a garden pond. 

Would we have been able to recruit Sara and Nunez pre brexit? Make bids for MLS players?

Doors in Europe have closed, ones elsewhere have opened up. I don’t think your analogy holds water.

There’s also a difference in not being able to afford something and choosing a cheaper less (financially at least) risky strategy.

[hogesar 9,691]

25 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

I'd respectfully disagree, we brought in Skipp who filled a gap that we should have plugged with a permanent signing, we paid 8m for a Ben Gibson who is clearly just a run of the mill championship center half, we paid 5m for Jordan hugill when we could of got Ivan Toney or Clarke-Harris for pretty much the same amount if we'd just look downwards. 

Giannoulis is probably the best part of the recruitment of that season and even then I would say only a championship starter. 

That's fair. I think any Championship window where you hold onto both Emi and Pukki whilst spending less than £20 million to bounce immediately back to the prem is a very successful window, evident by the limited times it's happened to other clubs.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,327]

Just now, hogesar said:

That's fair. I think any Championship window where you hold onto both Emi and Pukki whilst spending less than £20 million to bounce immediately back to the prem is a very successful window, evident by the limited times it's happened to other clubs.

I'd agree with that part being successful yes. But it's the incomings that have left much to be desired over the last few windows. 

[FCC 76]

I think recruitment must have been easier when we had an identifiable style of play.  With 4-2-3-1 you know what you need, maybe the odd outlier to shake a game up at times.

I now can’t decide if Smith is playing formations to accommodate the signings, rather than we have signed players that match his preferred style.

In my opinion we haven’t got the talent, strength, or stamina to manage with 3 in midfield.  4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 would be more effective.

[Jim Smith 2,322]

Our recruitment certainly makes no sense if you are determined to play a 4-3-3. 

[nutty nigel 7,539]

1 minute ago, FCC said:

I think recruitment must have been easier when we had an identifiable style of play.  With 4-2-3-1 you know what you need, maybe the odd outlier to shake a game up at times.

I now can’t decide if Smith is playing formations to accommodate the signings, rather than we have signed players that match his preferred style.

In my opinion we haven’t got the talent, strength, or stamina to manage with 3 in midfield.  4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 would be more effective.

I wish he'd play a formation to accommodate Pukki and Sargent up top.

[TheBaldOne66 690]

5 hours ago, CDMullins said:

Lol, it's the core of the same team that's won it twice and have an additional two years Prem Experience.

One thing is sure for me,

If Farke was here we'd be performing and winning 

How many players that are here won it 4 years ago? I’d hardly call it the core, but it’s just another example of fans living in cloud cuckoo land, Krul, Aarons, Hanley, McLean and Pukki are the only ones who were here then if memory serves me correctly, and Krul is no longer playing for the first team is he? So 4 players is not a core is it? 
 

[CDMullins 436]

2 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

How many players that are here won it 4 years ago? I’d hardly call it the core, but it’s just another example of fans living in cloud cuckoo land, Krul, Aarons, Hanley, McLean and Pukki are the only ones who were here then if memory serves me correctly, and Krul is no longer playing for the first team is he? So 4 players is not a core is it? 
 

+ Todd and Hernandez

Krul was dropped 2 games ago.

GK, CB, CM, ST - spine of the team the same, with RB, LW and RW.

Add to that it being Gibson's 3rd year and Dimi's 3rd year.

With Byram and Dowell and this is a team/squad who at this level, should take some beating 

If you can't see that, then you are in cuckoo land.

[TheBaldOne66 690]

1 hour ago, CDMullins said:

+ Todd and Hernandez

Krul was dropped 2 games ago.

GK, CB, CM, ST - spine of the team the same, with RB, LW and RW.

Add to that it being Gibson's 3rd year and Dimi's 3rd year.

With Byram and Dowell and this is a team/squad who at this level, should take some beating 

If you can't see that, then you are in cuckoo land.

So a grand total of 6 were here 4 years ago, and only 3 are regulars, yet that’s the core you mention and you say I’m cuckoo? 
 

Read back your original bit slagging me off and then explain how the players you mention were the core of the team for TWO promotions even though Byram, Dowell, Gibson and Dimi weren’t here 🤣🤣🤣

 

You are the one that’s cuckoo 🐦

Edited October 23, 2022 by TheBaldOne66

[TheBaldOne66 690]

9 hours ago, CDMullins said:

Lol, it's the core of the same team that's won it twice and have an additional two years Prem Experience.

One thing is sure for me,

If Farke was here we'd be performing and winning 

Just for clarification here is your original reply so please explain how the likes of Byram, Gibson, Dowell and Dimi were part of a Championship winning side 4 years ago BEFORE they actually signed for us? 🤣🤣🤣

[TheBaldOne66 690]

1 hour ago, CDMullins said:

+ Todd and Hernandez

Krul was dropped 2 games ago.

GK, CB, CM, ST - spine of the team the same, with RB, LW and RW.

Add to that it being Gibson's 3rd year and Dimi's 3rd year.

With Byram and Dowell and this is a team/squad who at this level, should take some beating 

If you can't see that, then you are in cuckoo land.

Again you talking lies as Hernandez spent a full Prem season and Todd a half season out on loan but don’t let facts get in the way of a good story hey? 🤣🤣🤣

[CDMullins 436]

Baldy,

WTF are you actually going on about?

This was your original point "

it’s ridiculous to say it’s a great squad, when in truth it’s actually full of journeymen and relatively untried youngsters!"

We have a full team of 11 players who have won this division before, some of them twice.

Krul, Max, Gibson, Hanley, Dimi, McLean, Todd, Dowell, Hernandez and Pukki - Idah and Sorensen to less of an extent.

The core spine of them players is still the core spine of our team now and with the few additions we've made Sargent, Hayden (Also won Championship), Sara and Nunez that anything 3rd or lower should be seen as a failure.

I genuinely won't reply to anymore of your bizarre ramblings.

[CDMullins 436]

30 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Just for clarification here is your original reply so please explain how the likes of Byram, Gibson, Dowell and Dimi were part of a Championship winning side 4 years ago BEFORE they actually signed for us? 🤣🤣🤣

I mean, I really didn't say that did I?

Try reading it again,

[chicken 2,627]

5 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Would we have been able to recruit Sara and Nunez pre brexit? Make bids for MLS players?

Doors in Europe have closed, ones elsewhere have opened up. I don’t think your analogy holds water.

There’s also a difference in not being able to afford something and choosing a cheaper less (financially at least) risky strategy.

Yes, we had the same rules in place for signing players outside of Europe pre Brexit as we do now, give or take - though recruiting from other areas outside of the EU did become a tad easier where their leagues were given better recognition in the points system. We tended not to go elsewhere as generally, the level of football is lower and the quality of the footballers is lower. The MLS has not been a fantastic pool to recruit from, the number of players to come over successfully to English football is pretty limited really.

Central & South America on the other hand... but  then it's also already rich with scouts who look to sign young talented players for Europe - eg; Buendia.

It is harder because we can't look to the leagues most relatable to the English league. The MLS isn't that relatable and the quality is... well, there are reasons European players go there for a season or two at the end of their careers.

[CDMullins 436]

Just now, chicken said:

Yes, we had the same rules in place for signing players outside of Europe pre Brexit as we do now, give or take - though recruiting from other areas outside of the EU did become a tad easier where their leagues were given better recognition in the points system. We tended not to go elsewhere as generally, the level of football is lower and the quality of the footballers is lower. The MLS has not been a fantastic pool to recruit from, the number of players to come over successfully to English football is pretty limited really.

Central & South America on the other hand... but  then it's also already rich with scouts who look to sign young talented players for Europe - eg; Buendia.

It is harder because we can't look to the leagues most relatable to the English league. The MLS isn't that relatable and the quality is... well, there are reasons European players go there for a season or two at the end of their careers.

No sure if you've watched it lately,

But there are some very very good players currently in the MLS - particularly the South Americans.

[chicken 2,627]

8 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

No sure if you've watched it lately,

But there are some very very good players currently in the MLS - particularly the South Americans.

"Some" being the operative word. Yeah. That's my point.

And that is also why we are looking at Central and South America, get them before they go to the MLS. It still isn't a good standard of football. 

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

Yes, we had the same rules in place for signing players outside of Europe pre Brexit as we do now, give or take - though recruiting from other areas outside of the EU did become a tad easier where their leagues were given better recognition in the points system. We tended not to go elsewhere as generally, the level of football is lower and the quality of the footballers is lower. The MLS has not been a fantastic pool to recruit from, the number of players to come over successfully to English football is pretty limited really.

Central & South America on the other hand... but  then it's also already rich with scouts who look to sign young talented players for Europe - eg; Buendia.

It is harder because we can't look to the leagues most relatable to the English league. The MLS isn't that relatable and the quality is... well, there are reasons European players go there for a season or two at the end of their careers.

So, the rules have in fact changed and made transfers from these leagues easier. It’s not a point to brush over, it’s the biggest shake up to the work permit system in years. I’m pretty sure I’ve read that neither Sara or Nunez would have been eligible prior, or the Canadian we were interested in.

I’m really impressed personally in respect to the fact the club has been quick to take advantage.

I think you are making assumptions about where we’ve been shopping lately. We picked up European players because they were cheaper an easier, but we also did it because we had prior knowledge, it wasn’t a coincidence we started picking up German players and ones that had played there. Same reason Smith has helped us bring in Hayden and Ramsey.

The only true gem we picked up from the Continent that wouldn’t have been eligible is Emi.

Every other major sale we have made, for years, has been homegrown.

Weve swapped oceans when shopping for rough diamonds is all, from a relatively well charted one to one that’s more unknown.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Monty13

[chicken 2,627]

3 hours ago, Monty13 said:

So, the rules have in fact changed and made transfers from these leagues easier. It’s not a point to brush over, it’s the biggest shake up to the work permit system in years. I’m pretty sure I’ve read that neither Sara or Nunez would have been eligible prior, or the Canadian we were interested in.

I’m really impressed personally in respect to the fact the club has been quick to take advantage.

I think you are making assumptions about where we’ve been shopping lately. We picked up European players because they were cheaper an easier, but we also did it because we had prior knowledge, it wasn’t a coincidence we started picking up German players and ones that had played there. Same reason Smith has helped us bring in Hayden and Ramsey.

The only true gem we picked up from the Continent that wouldn’t have been eligible is Emi.

Every other major sale we have made, for years, has been homegrown.

Weve swapped oceans when shopping for rough diamonds is all, from a relatively well charted one to one that’s more unknown.

I'm really not sure what your point is. I said we are shopping from a smaller pool - when pushed I added pool of quality. There is no doubt about that really - even the points system identifies those leagues as lower in quality. The outlay for Nunez and Sara is around £10m. Not cheap particularly and as we are seeing, they'll take a bit longer to adapt.

French, German, Spanish, Italian players not playing in their top flights or their national teams are essentially out of bounds for us now, sure, there was a connection with Farke though Webber was also keen to exploit the German leagues as they were some he knew. The point remains the same, the leagues most closely related to ours and of a more guaranteed quality level are far more difficult to recruit from - hence we haven't been shopping there as much.

It's not just about "true gems", we populated a squad on a fairly minimal outlay. We could look at free transfers, players in the last year of their contracts etc. Rupp, Vrancic, Zimmermann etc.

"is all" - yeah, no. Huge difference in cultures. Players from an entirely different continent. There's a reason the premier league still, generally, prefers to shop in Europe for "proven" talent, or even young talent has been tested to some degree already. You don't see very many being signed directly from Central & South America. 

Sara is 23, Nunez is 22 - without trying to sound an ****, if those two were of the same rough diamond level as Buendia they would have been snapped up already. Buendia was 21 but had already been on the books of Real Madrid. That's not to say Sara and Nunez could not reach as high a level or better... that's sort of my point. It's not as easy, the football isn't as close style wise, or quality wise - again Romario, Veron etc returned to playing in the top leagues of South American football, Ronaldinho has been playing on and off until recently and still threatens to return every so often.

[chicken 2,627]

On 23/10/2022 at 12:43, GodlyOtsemobor said:

I'd respectfully disagree, we brought in Skipp who filled a gap that we should have plugged with a permanent signing, we paid 8m for a Ben Gibson who is clearly just a run of the mill championship center half, we paid 5m for Jordan hugill when we could of got Ivan Toney or Clarke-Harris for pretty much the same amount if we'd just look downwards. 

Giannoulis is probably the best part of the recruitment of that season and even then I would say only a championship starter. 

Sort of. Gibson and Giannoulis were only loaned and signed permanently the following summer (Giannoulis was signed on loan in Jan) when promotion had been achieved. To be fair, Gibson was one half of a championship winning defence, he hasn't quite looked the same since, some might argue his confidence was knocked in the premier league. However, if looking to sign a player from a similarly placed club, but perhaps just missed out on promotion, you'd probably be looking at a similar fee.

A similar ball park is Ajer - though younger, and with more potential, cost £13.5m. His experience was a similar level.

Hugill was £3m which rose to £5m upon promotion. If we are comparing like for like, Toney cost £5m which rose to £10m upon promotion. Huge difference there really. Argument is fair though, should we have pushed out the boat more for Toney? Hard to tell, we had Pukki who is arguably as good at this level.

I could be wrong here, but I believe the sort of fee Peterborough were looking for for Clarke-Harris was £7m+. That is intrinsically one of the issues of recruiting from lower down the English pyramid. It costs more money and the gamble is as big. Armstrong was £15m rising to £20m for Southampton, not sure if their fans think that was good value now. 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,327]

7 minutes ago, chicken said:

Sort of. Gibson and Giannoulis were only loaned and signed permanently the following summer (Giannoulis was signed on loan in Jan) when promotion had been achieved. To be fair, Gibson was one half of a championship winning defence, he hasn't quite looked the same since, some might argue his confidence was knocked in the premier league. However, if looking to sign a player from a similarly placed club, but perhaps just missed out on promotion, you'd probably be looking at a similar fee.

A similar ball park is Ajer - though younger, and with more potential, cost £13.5m. His experience was a similar level.

Hugill was £3m which rose to £5m upon promotion. If we are comparing like for like, Toney cost £5m which rose to £10m upon promotion. Huge difference there really. Argument is fair though, should we have pushed out the boat more for Toney? Hard to tell, we had Pukki who is arguably as good at this level.

I could be wrong here, but I believe the sort of fee Peterborough were looking for for Clarke-Harris was £7m+. That is intrinsically one of the issues of recruiting from lower down the English pyramid. It costs more money and the gamble is as big. Armstrong was £15m rising to £20m for Southampton, not sure if their fans think that was good value now. 

I do take the points you've put out about the fee's in regards to lower down players etc. and there in lays our problem. Money - shocking hey 🤣 

[Monty13 2,235]

16 hours ago, chicken said:

I'm really not sure what your point is. I said we are shopping from a smaller pool - when pushed I added pool of quality. There is no doubt about that really - even the points system identifies those leagues as lower in quality. The outlay for Nunez and Sara is around £10m. Not cheap particularly and as we are seeing, they'll take a bit longer to adapt.

French, German, Spanish, Italian players not playing in their top flights or their national teams are essentially out of bounds for us now, sure, there was a connection with Farke though Webber was also keen to exploit the German leagues as they were some he knew. The point remains the same, the leagues most closely related to ours and of a more guaranteed quality level are far more difficult to recruit from - hence we haven't been shopping there as much.

It's not just about "true gems", we populated a squad on a fairly minimal outlay. We could look at free transfers, players in the last year of their contracts etc. Rupp, Vrancic, Zimmermann etc.

"is all" - yeah, no. Huge difference in cultures. Players from an entirely different continent. There's a reason the premier league still, generally, prefers to shop in Europe for "proven" talent, or even young talent has been tested to some degree already. You don't see very many being signed directly from Central & South America. 

Sara is 23, Nunez is 22 - without trying to sound an ****, if those two were of the same rough diamond level as Buendia they would have been snapped up already. Buendia was 21 but had already been on the books of Real Madrid. That's not to say Sara and Nunez could not reach as high a level or better... that's sort of my point. It's not as easy, the football isn't as close style wise, or quality wise - again Romario, Veron etc returned to playing in the top leagues of South American football, Ronaldinho has been playing on and off until recently and still threatens to return every so often.

You said it’s a garden pond v an ocean, which is just a ridiculous and patently false analogy, that was my point.

[chicken 2,627]

3 hours ago, Monty13 said:

You said it’s a garden pond v an ocean, which is just a ridiculous and patently false analogy, that was my point.

I stand by it though.

In a garden pond you have frogs, newts, insects... perhaps a carp if you've brought them in, perhaps goldfish. Compared to the European leagues, the MLS, Central and South American Leagues are that. Looking at populations, it's not that far off similar. Then you have to take into account that 'soccer' isn't the 1st, 2nd or 3rd most popular sport in North America.

Which ever way you look at it, even if you don't agree with the analogy, it is a much tougher place to shop than Europe to find that quality. As mentioned before, Buendia had already gained an understanding of European football. Farke played a brand of that, so in some ways it was less of a risk to bring him across than it is Nunez.

Otherwise you are honestly arguing that the MLS, Brazilian, Argentinian, Chilian top top tiers are the equivelent to the French, German, Spanish and Italian top tiers. They just aren't. There are 28 (two conferences of 14) teams in the MLS - four more than the Championship. That's just to start with.