Maybe we haven’t quite got the recruitment right?

[Monty13 2,235]

30 minutes ago, chicken said:

I stand by it though.

In a garden pond you have frogs, newts, insects... perhaps a carp if you've brought them in, perhaps goldfish. Compared to the European leagues, the MLS, Central and South American Leagues are that. Looking at populations, it's not that far off similar. Then you have to take into account that 'soccer' isn't the 1st, 2nd or 3rd most popular sport in North America.

Which ever way you look at it, even if you don't agree with the analogy, it is a much tougher place to shop than Europe to find that quality. As mentioned before, Buendia had already gained an understanding of European football. Farke played a brand of that, so in some ways it was less of a risk to bring him across than it is Nunez.

Otherwise you are honestly arguing that the MLS, Brazilian, Argentinian, Chilian top top tiers are the equivelent to the French, German, Spanish and Italian top tiers. They just aren't. There are 28 (two conferences of 14) teams in the MLS - four more than the Championship. That's just to start with.

Yes that was definitely what you were trying to say. It was most definitely and obviously a fauna type related analogy.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Monty13

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

On 23/10/2022 at 21:43, Monty13 said:

So, the rules have in fact changed and made transfers from these leagues easier. It’s not a point to brush over, it’s the biggest shake up to the work permit system in years. I’m pretty sure I’ve read that neither Sara or Nunez would have been eligible prior, or the Canadian we were interested in.

I’m really impressed personally in respect to the fact the club has been quick to take advantage.

I think you are making assumptions about where we’ve been shopping lately. We picked up European players because they were cheaper an easier, but we also did it because we had prior knowledge, it wasn’t a coincidence we started picking up German players and ones that had played there. Same reason Smith has helped us bring in Hayden and Ramsey.

The only true gem we picked up from the Continent that wouldn’t have been eligible is Emi.

Every other major sale we have made, for years, has been homegrown.

Weve swapped oceans when shopping for rough diamonds is all, from a relatively well charted one to one that’s more unknown.

If I remember rightly Michael Bailey’s list of players we couldn’t have signed from Europe under post-Brexit rules included Pukki.

[chicken 2,627]

3 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Yes that was definitely what you were trying to say. It was most definitely and obviously a fauna type related analogy.

🙄

I'm not even sure why you are arguing with me tbh. I wasn't disagreeing with your initial points. If anything, I was simply trying to point out that the pool of talent is smaller - which is accurate, it's new to us and the rough diamonds will likely require more work due to bigger cultural differences, bigger difference in the level and style of football and if South/Central America - likely to be climate differences too.

That's not to say it doesn't work, plenty of players around Europe that succeed. As I mentioned already though, Buendia is evidence that when it comes to those markets we are already behind. Buendia was recruited by Real Madrid at age 14 from what I can tell. We're hoping we spot a player no one else has. Sara is 23 and Nunez is 22 - fair to say it's unlikely many higher level teams would not have scouts that haven't seen them play... possible. So we're back to how we were with Farke in a sense, hoping that he can get more out of them than perhaps other coaches had done or thought they could.

Edited October 24, 2022 by chicken

[Monty13 2,235]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

🙄

I'm not even sure why you are arguing with me tbh. I wasn't disagreeing with your initial points. If anything, I was simply trying to point out that the pool of talent is smaller - which is accurate, it's new to us and the rough diamonds will likely require more work due to bigger cultural differences, bigger difference in the level and style of football and if South/Central America - likely to be climate differences too.

That's not to say it doesn't work, plenty of players around Europe that succeed. As I mentioned already though, Buendia is evidence that when it comes to those markets we are already behind. Buendia was recruited by Real Madrid at age 14 from what I can tell. We're hoping we spot a player no one else has. Sara is 23 and Nunez is 22 - fair to say it's unlikely many higher level teams would not have scouts that haven't seen them play... possible. So we're back to how we were with Farke in a sense, hoping that he can get more out of them than perhaps other coaches had done or thought they could.

Because the relative size of the challenge is important.

I don’t doubt that it is, on balance, probably more difficult for us to attract similar levels of talent, at least initially given our lack of knowledge of new areas open to us.

My point is prior to Farke’s arrival we were never particularly prolific in Europe, and rarely successfully, and even during his tenure we brought in a lot of people he (or his team) clearly had knowledge of (and there was a lot of hit and miss). Many of whom would still have been eligible btw.

The playing field has changed, I don’t personally see the evidence that change is going to make it so significantly harder for us as a club that it warrants such an extreme negative view of the change which your analogy suggests.

It’s happened, whatever you feel of why it’s happened I’ve yet to see evidence the affect will be extremely negative on us as a club. In fact we may have started pretty well given glimpses we’ve seen from our two new SA signings.

Time will tell how much the change really ends up affecting us. It’s not about finding players no one else has, it’s about being relatively competitive. We are still not going to compete with top clubs whatever the league we are searching in, so we will always be fighting with similar sized clubs for the players the big clubs dismissed.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Monty13

[chicken 2,627]

13 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Because the relative size of the challenge is important.

I don’t doubt that it is, on balance, probably more difficult for us to attract similar levels of talent, at least initially given our lack of knowledge of new areas open to us.

My point is prior to Farke’s arrival we were never particularly prolific in Europe, and rarely successfully, and even during his tenure we brought in a lot of people he (or his team) clearly had knowledge of (and there was a lot of hit and miss). Many of whom would still have been eligible btw.

The playing field has changed, I don’t personally see the evidence that change is going to make it so significantly harder for us as a club that it warrants such an extreme negative view of the change which your analogy suggests.

It’s happened, whatever you feel of why it’s happened I’ve yet to see evidence the affect will be extremely negative on us as a club. In fact we may have started pretty well given glimpses we’ve seen from our two new SA signings.

Time will tell how much the change really ends up affecting us. It’s not about finding players no one else has, it’s about being relatively competitive. We are still not going to compete with top clubs whatever the league we are searching in, so we will always be fighting with similar sized clubs for the players the big clubs dismissed.

Has it? And the success of those two doesn't determine the difficulty or scarcity of their talent is in their respective leagues.

Not sure what "prior to Farke's arrival" has to do with it. Webber and Farke built a side around European(continent) signings largely. Some exceptions in there but the vast majority of them were. There is no doubt that they started looking elsewhere prior to the new rules being brought in as the one thing we can say with certainty is that Webber likes to be looking at players for a long period of time rather than knee jerk signings.

I really don't think there is any denying that the pool of talent is smaller. The very rules that have relaxed to enable lesser international leagues be considered enough to award points to, have left most 2nd tiers in Europe untouchable unless the players involved are already internationals.

We haven't "gained" South/Central/North America - they were always an option, just slightly more difficult (remember Kai Kamara?). Now it is marginally easier, but only to the same degree as Europe, I'm not sure you can really argue the pool we can recruit from hasn't shrunk when it clearly has.

I doubt we will suddenly see the numbers we did from Europe either, now that all players need permits. Many of those previously would not have been eligible under the current rules, btw. Quite a number of articles about the place now. Few were signed from the top tiers, fewer were full internationals. Points system is out there, so why not apply it to the players when we signed them?

[Monty13 2,235]

53 minutes ago, chicken said:

Has it? And the success of those two doesn't determine the difficulty or scarcity of their talent is in their respective leagues.

Not sure what "prior to Farke's arrival" has to do with it. Webber and Farke built a side around European(continent) signings largely. Some exceptions in there but the vast majority of them were. There is no doubt that they started looking elsewhere prior to the new rules being brought in as the one thing we can say with certainty is that Webber likes to be looking at players for a long period of time rather than knee jerk signings.

I really don't think there is any denying that the pool of talent is smaller. The very rules that have relaxed to enable lesser international leagues be considered enough to award points to, have left most 2nd tiers in Europe untouchable unless the players involved are already internationals.

We haven't "gained" South/Central/North America - they were always an option, just slightly more difficult (remember Kai Kamara?). Now it is marginally easier, but only to the same degree as Europe, I'm not sure you can really argue the pool we can recruit from hasn't shrunk when it clearly has.

I doubt we will suddenly see the numbers we did from Europe either, now that all players need permits. Many of those previously would not have been eligible under the current rules, btw. Quite a number of articles about the place now. Few were signed from the top tiers, fewer were full internationals. Points system is out there, so why not apply it to the players when we signed them?

Which is why I’m not. I’m saying the “vast ocean to garden pond” comparison is ridiculous hyperbole.

[chicken 2,627]

Actually, sod it, feeling generous. I don't usually do other people's work for them when it comes to arguments...

https://worldfootballindex.com/2020/12/work-permits-premier-league-post-brexit-english-clubs-efl-libertadores/

Right, so...


I'm not going to go through all of the charts here, but they are in the link. I'll use transfermarkt for the player info.

Zimmermann: Signed in summer of 2017 from Dortmund II who were in the Regionalliga West in 2016-17. Germany's sort of fourth tier... it's broken into 5 regions three of 18, one of 19 and one of 20 teams - looks like it is considered Band 6. No international appearances, no cup appearances of a level that would gain points. According to tansfermarkt, he made 29 out of a possible 34 appearances which puts him in the 80-89% bracket. Points total: 0pts. Qualify - No.

Vrancic: Signed July 2017 from Darmstadt who had just been relegated from the Bundesliga. Also plays for Boz&Herz. Sounding good right? 23 appearances out of a possible 34 for Darmstadt, including 14 where he was subbed on or off. I can't be bothered to do the precise maths here so... we are looking at best, at the 70-79% bracket. He also appeared twice in the DFB Pokal, though one was not a full appearance. Vrancic only made two international appearances in the twelve months prior, he was on the bench for three, not selected for two and played in one competitive game and a friendly - no indication that friendlies are counted. As if to make that worse, he was a sub and came on after 57mins so out of a possible 540mins he played 57. Boz&Herz were ranked 40th by fifa in 2017.  Points: Domestic = 10, International = 0.

Ok, so they were just two examples of the first season, I'm not going to do all of them, but I believe those two are a pretty good indicator - Vrancic from the top tier still didn't accumulate enough points.

Buendia: Buendia signed in  2018 from Getafe, having been loaned to Cultural Leonesa in 2017-18(band 4). Out of a possible 3,600 mins in 42 games he tallied up a total of 3162mins. No international appearances. Points: Domestically, 0pt. 

Pukki: I'll speed this one up. Brondby play in a league that is considered to be Band 5. In 2018 Finland were ranked 63rd in the FIFA world rankings which, at best, would give him 2pts.

At this point I will stop, because we have looked at the players with the most notable league experience in the 12months prior to signing in Vrancic and the player with the most international experience prior to signing in Pukki. Now, if I have got these charts all wrong, I apologise, but that's what I have worked out from them.

Now, if you want to compare this to someone like Nunez, it gets a bit more interesting. I say that because European leagues typically run from August to May - or there-a-bouts. That means "last 12 months" covers a season. This isn't always the case in South/Central America. We signed Nunez in the middle of his season. This means that 12months covers more than one season and possibly more than one Copa Libertadores. Which in some senses, actually gives an advantage to players from leagues set up like that.



 

[chicken 2,627]

3 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Which is why I’m not. I’m saying the “vast ocean to garden pond” comparison is ridiculous hyperbole.

Yup, exactly, you are saying, whilst suggesting something as a counter without evidencing it.

I've now disproven, unless applied incorrectly, your belief that we would still be able to sign players we did under the new rules.

To put it simply, players have to be playing in band 3 to even start to accumulate points and even then they need to be completing 80%+ of the fixtures to get 1 or even 2 points. I could be wrong, but Vrancic was the closest, having been in the bundesliga. 
 

[Monty13 2,235]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Yup, exactly, you are saying, whilst suggesting something as a counter without evidencing it.

I've now disproven, unless applied incorrectly, your belief that we would still be able to sign players we did under the new rules.

To put it simply, players have to be playing in band 3 to even start to accumulate points and even then they need to be completing 80%+ of the fixtures to get 1 or even 2 points. I could be wrong, but Vrancic was the closest, having been in the bundesliga. 
 

What belief? I never said all of them I said many, and that’s true go look it up, Bailey did an article where he went through the pre rules signings. Vrancic was eligible, so was Leitner and Trybull as well as others. No it wasn’t all or even the majority and I never said it was.

I’m not sure you understand the difference between an ocean and garden pond. 

Is it volume of water that’s the comparison? Can’t be that’s an insane comparison.

Is it the number of fish you can catch, a usual staple of the pool analogy. Again crazy hyperbolic comparison.

Or oh yes was it types of fauna, the usual thing people go to when referencing an analogy around two pools of water, how silly of me. Well given the number of species in both again complete hyperbole.

Maybe it’s the quality of the fauna available? I think Sara is a Newt and Pukki is a Marlin if I’m following correctly? Christ knows.

It’s probably going to be harder for us to recruit and I said that. You made a crazy hyperbolic analogy, like comparing a molehill to a mountain, and all I did was point that out as it’s just simply not true. 

[chicken 2,627]

43 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

What belief? I never said all of them I said many, and that’s true go look it up, Bailey did an article where he went through the pre rules signings. Vrancic was eligible, so was Leitner and Trybull as well as others. No it wasn’t all or even the majority and I never said it was.

I’m not sure you understand the difference between an ocean and garden pond. 

Is it volume of water that’s the comparison? Can’t be that’s an insane comparison.

Is it the number of fish you can catch, a usual staple of the pool analogy. Again crazy hyperbolic comparison.

Or oh yes was it types of fauna, the usual thing people go to when referencing an analogy around two pools of water, how silly of me. Well given the number of species in both again complete hyperbole.

Maybe it’s the quality of the fauna available? I think Sara is a Newt and Pukki is a Marlin if I’m following correctly? Christ knows.

It’s probably going to be harder for us to recruit and I said that. You made a crazy hyperbolic analogy, like comparing a molehill to a mountain, and all I did was point that out as it’s just simply not true. 

Not hyberbole at all. Even if you go by difference in terms of populace playing football, the level and quality of football. We have fewer players to pick from - you don't have to agree to it, but you haven't provided anything to disagree with it.

As for Bailey's piece - find it and quote it please. I'd love to know where my application of the rules to cases is wrong - which in fairness, I did ask.

[Monty13 2,235]

46 minutes ago, chicken said:

Not hyberbole at all. Even if you go by difference in terms of populace playing football, the level and quality of football. We have fewer players to pick from - you don't have to agree to it, but you haven't provided anything to disagree with it.

As for Bailey's piece - find it and quote it please. I'd love to know where my application of the rules to cases is wrong - which in fairness, I did ask.

You know you could just say yes ok you were being hyperbolic, overly dramatic, (whatever you want) but you do believe we will be significantly worse off, fine, that’s an opinion that fits as good as any.

I think it’s broadly correct, but that we will adapt and overcome due to what I said re our reliance on Europe. Your desire to absolutely double down and not make any concession to your infallibility when you have said something like this is why people stop discussing things with you.

https://theathletic.com/2236477/2020/12/10/norwich-recruitment-brexit-farke-pukki-buendia/

Here’s the Article, maybe Bailey’s, wrong you never know, but 6 out of 17 would have gone through and IMO while that’s alarming at first only 2 are truly awful in Pukki and Emi. I liked Stiepermann and Zimmerman a lot, but I don’t think either was irreplaceable by other means, ditto Hernandez. The rest meh.

You also compare it overall to our home grown youth signings, they have been far more successful in perpetuating our model.

[chicken 2,627]

20 hours ago, Monty13 said:

You know you could just say yes ok you were being hyperbolic, overly dramatic, (whatever you want) but you do believe we will be significantly worse off, fine, that’s an opinion that fits as good as any.

I think it’s broadly correct, but that we will adapt and overcome due to what I said re our reliance on Europe. Your desire to absolutely double down and not make any concession to your infallibility when you have said something like this is why people stop discussing things with you.

https://theathletic.com/2236477/2020/12/10/norwich-recruitment-brexit-farke-pukki-buendia/

Here’s the Article, maybe Bailey’s, wrong you never know, but 6 out of 17 would have gone through and IMO while that’s alarming at first only 2 are truly awful in Pukki and Emi. I liked Stiepermann and Zimmerman a lot, but I don’t think either was irreplaceable by other means, ditto Hernandez. The rest meh.

You also compare it overall to our home grown youth signings, they have been far more successful in perpetuating our model.

Moving the goalposts again.

"Double down" is hyperbole.

"will be worse off" - no, I have argued we are worse off. I believe I even suggested this to be the case early on as we explore something that is new to us. Do I expect the success rate to be worse - yes. That's not hyperbole.

Again, from what I can see your main argument is just to disagree. Any player playing for a band three tier in Europe with little to no international football in the previous 12months to signing will be unavailable to us. That includes the majority of European 2nd tiers. Yes, we have gained some relaxation in South/Central and Northern American leagues, generally, they are not as professional or as high a quality, they are also generally smaller.

So we are looking at fewer players and fewer players of quality. As I also said, the move from one continent to another is always seen as largely a big step. Though not the same as European football, English football is still closer to it than the Americas. It's just of a higher standard for starters.

I'm not sure how any of this is hyperbole - so the only thing you disagree with is an ocean compared to a pond. We could recruit from elsewhere before, just the leagues in question were not considered sufficient enough to give better bandings to. The level of bandings now given to European leagues which could still be considered to be better, are not prohibitive unless said players are internationals. Again, that would have been the case outside of Europe before the new rulings.

It's hyperbole to suggest something is doubling down when it isn't. 

Lastly, youth signings. Godfrey and Maddison cost several millions each. I think it was £3.5m-ish for Maddison and £2.5ish for Godfrey, bargains in the long run considering what we sold them for, both were already playing regular football at senior level lower down when we signed them. It's not without risk.

As for Stiepermann and Zimmermann - that 'is' and example of 'doubling down'. We're not talking about how easily replaced they are - the reality of that particular squad is that it was signed on the basis of being low cost and could recruit from all over Europe for all of the free transfers or players coming to the end of their contracts. It doesn't matter anymore as whether they are contracted or not, those players would not get work permits based on the current points system. As the argument was - we would not have been able to assemble that squad - and it's true.

Zimmermann was integral to promotion in 18-19, he and Godfrey formed a great partnership at the back with injuries to Hanley and Klose and then form of Zimmermann preventing Hanley getting back in the side. Stiepermann assisted many of Pukki's goals, I would wager that a goof 5-6 came from him that season. On paper, replaceable, sure, but not as easily now as then because those sort of signings need to have the points - which they wouldn't, which means every team looking to sign players like that from the UK in a similar position to us are likely looking at the same group of players that would qualify.
 

[Monty13 2,235]

3 hours ago, chicken said:

so the only thing you disagree with is an ocean compared to a pond.

I have literally been saying that since you first commented.

Given the rest of what you’ve written, I’m genuinely confused if you know what hyperbole and what it means to double down are.

[chicken 2,627]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

I have literally been saying that since you first commented.

Given the rest of what you’ve written, I’m genuinely confused if you know what hyperbole and what it means to double down are.

So herein lies the issues. 

Hyperbole is "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally." 

If you believe my statement is 'hyperbole' then you are taking offence to an exaggerated statement or claim not to be taken literally. This forum is literally teeming with actual hyperbole of a far worse nature. You don't appear to take any of that to the degree that you feel so strongly as to argue it.

So clearly you feel that my statement was serious - ergo, not hyperbole. 

Double down is self explanatory. You are of guilty of it here as I am. Which is exactly what I have said.

As I have also been saying, you haven't provided anything but "I don't like it/agree". Which is fine - but essentially you have just repeated that with little evidence. Other than to change your tune a little after linking to the Bailey article and admitting it was more players than you had realised. However, again, rather than admit to being wrong about the majority of that crop of players you suggested many were "replaceable"... which wasn't even the argument and an entirely different debate.

Again...


The only league I can't see listed (could be being blind here) is Serie B, Italy's 2nd tier. That's the same as the FA document I just downloaded so I am guessing that's either me being blind, a mistake or serie B being considered Band 6.

Further to this, the top tiers for Chilli and Uruguay are Band 5. So are still more difficult to recruit from than the majority of the European top two tiers. The issue is that Band 3, in most instances, may as well be band 5 unless the players are internationals or are/were with a side in the last 12months that were top tier that would be considered Band 1 or 2.

The MLS is Band 4 - so not even point worthy despite your earlier argument that it is of a good standard. The banding clearly reflecting not good enough. So any players from the MLS would need to be regular internationals to recruit or have played a higher banding in the last 12months. 

Again, top tier in Brazil, Argentina and Mexico are tier 3. So whilst easier than before, and easier to recruit from than Band 4, the highly rated cup competitions and international football will be required to push those points up.

So to simplify - we have lost all of the European leagues listed in Band 4 and lower including 2nd tiers that we have recently recruited well from and gained the top tiers of Brazi, Argentina and Mexico in terms of point scoring for players - though as said before, the charts suggest a maximum of 2pts for those leagues.

So again, how would you compare gaining 3 leagues to losing at least 13 leagues to recruit from? And even then, those 3 leagues alone are not enough to guarantee the points needed, where as no points were needed before for those leagues lost? 

[Monty13 2,235]

15 minutes ago, chicken said:

So herein lies the issues. 

Hyperbole is "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally." 

If you believe my statement is 'hyperbole' then you are taking offence to an exaggerated statement or claim not to be taken literally. This forum is literally teeming with actual hyperbole of a far worse nature. You don't appear to take any of that to the degree that you feel so strongly as to argue it.

So clearly you feel that my statement was serious - ergo, not hyperbole. 

Double down is self explanatory. You are of guilty of it here as I am. Which is exactly what I have said.

As I have also been saying, you haven't provided anything but "I don't like it/agree". Which is fine - but essentially you have just repeated that with little evidence. Other than to change your tune a little after linking to the Bailey article and admitting it was more players than you had realised. However, again, rather than admit to being wrong about the majority of that crop of players you suggested many were "replaceable"... which wasn't even the argument and an entirely different debate.

Again...


The only league I can't see listed (could be being blind here) is Serie B, Italy's 2nd tier. That's the same as the FA document I just downloaded so I am guessing that's either me being blind, a mistake or serie B being considered Band 6.

Further to this, the top tiers for Chilli and Uruguay are Band 5. So are still more difficult to recruit from than the majority of the European top two tiers. The issue is that Band 3, in most instances, may as well be band 5 unless the players are internationals or are/were with a side in the last 12months that were top tier that would be considered Band 1 or 2.

The MLS is Band 4 - so not even point worthy despite your earlier argument that it is of a good standard. The banding clearly reflecting not good enough. So any players from the MLS would need to be regular internationals to recruit or have played a higher banding in the last 12months. 

Again, top tier in Brazil, Argentina and Mexico are tier 3. So whilst easier than before, and easier to recruit from than Band 4, the highly rated cup competitions and international football will be required to push those points up.

So to simplify - we have lost all of the European leagues listed in Band 4 and lower including 2nd tiers that we have recently recruited well from and gained the top tiers of Brazi, Argentina and Mexico in terms of point scoring for players - though as said before, the charts suggest a maximum of 2pts for those leagues.

So again, how would you compare gaining 3 leagues to losing at least 13 leagues to recruit from? And even then, those 3 leagues alone are not enough to guarantee the points needed, where as no points were needed before for those leagues lost? 

I think it’s hyperbolic, my issue is you’ve claimed it’s a reasonable comparison.

“So again, how would you compare gaining 3 leagues to losing at least 13 leagues to recruit from?”

Not as an ocean to a garden pond.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Monty13

[chicken 2,627]

2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I think it’s hyperbolic, my issue is you’ve claimed it’s a reasonable comparison.

Extrapolate.

You've said you think it's hyperbolic.

I have claimed it is a reasonable comparison because we have traded 13+ leagues for internationals that play in 3 south American leagues or just internationals who accrue enough points. So not even players that just play in those three leagues, they have to have more points than the maximum 2. 

Again, if I am interpreting those charts incorrectly please correct me.

The difference here is you are presenting "I think" to compete with "I believe - here look at this evidence".

You've not yet provided evidence to support "I think", or to contradict what I believe.

I mean, I could look into how many teams are in those 13+ European leagues and how many players that roughly represents Vs the number of players with enough points in the three leagues that were promoted to band 3 from Central/South America.

It'd also be nice for you to at least recognise that you thought the MLS was one of those leagues and yet it isn't of the deemed quality needed to be Band 3.

[Monty13 2,235]

8 minutes ago, chicken said:

Extrapolate.

You've said you think it's hyperbolic.

I have claimed it is a reasonable comparison because we have traded 13+ leagues for internationals that play in 3 south American leagues or just internationals who accrue enough points. So not even players that just play in those three leagues, they have to have more points than the maximum 2. 

Again, if I am interpreting those charts incorrectly please correct me.

The difference here is you are presenting "I think" to compete with "I believe - here look at this evidence".

You've not yet provided evidence to support "I think", or to contradict what I believe.

I mean, I could look into how many teams are in those 13+ European leagues and how many players that roughly represents Vs the number of players with enough points in the three leagues that were promoted to band 3 from Central/South America.

It'd also be nice for you to at least recognise that you thought the MLS was one of those leagues and yet it isn't of the deemed quality needed to be Band 3.

Because either it is hyperbole, or you have no idea the relative difference of your chosen comparison.

This is just laughable, there is no way you can seriously compare the changes we face to difference between a garden pond and an ocean  and say it’s a “reasonable comparison”.

Yes there are less players eligible, but like I said can we please not misrepresent the size of the challenge.

I’m not sure how big your pond is but the Ocean has approximately 352 quintillion gallons of water in it.

[Mello Yello 2,296]

Buster Gonad from Viz had hyperbolics....

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,764]

We sogned 2 players for a combined £20m last sumner in Rashica smd Tzolis

...roll on a year and we have neither the players or any money for them

Rephrehensible and sackable for the head of recruitment

[Move Klose 303]

On 22/10/2022 at 19:37, Monty13 said:

Anyone else pondering this?

It feels like a summer where individually I don’t think we’ve made a bad move either in or out, nothing you can truly point at as a mistake.

I think it’s unarguable that on paper we have one of, if not the, strongest squads in the division, but collectively I can’t help feeling we haven’t quite got what we need. Admittedly we’ve had piles of injuries, but that does shine the light on the backups and squad strength.

My main concern is we have a lot of young players. I get the model, but it still feels to me there’s too many learning their trade in terms of age, this league or both.

Gibbs, Nunez, Omobamidele, Sara, Ramsey, McCallum, Springett and Rowe. Even Idah is still 21.

I always consider Max an experienced pro then have to remind myself he’s 22.

A lot of our more experienced players are still under 25.

Hayden looks a great long term asset considering how little football he’s played and how assured he looks, but he’s still the only DM. How we could have done with a Tettey equivalent today to throw on and help shore things up.

There were rumours we were after Mooy in the summer and I think that’s the type of player (as well as a pure DM) we need. Someone who doesn’t panic and can help control a game. There just feels an experience imbalance to me and maybe even just one more experienced head in the centre of the park would make that difference.

You mean leaving us with one senior out and out winger wasn't a good move. That one being awful, who 99 times out of 100 will play the wrong ball. The one who was deemed not good enough for us 2 years ago. 

[chicken 2,627]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Because either it is hyperbole, or you have no idea the relative difference of your chosen comparison.

This is just laughable, there is no way you can seriously compare the changes we face to difference between a garden pond and an ocean  and say it’s a “reasonable comparison”.

Yes there are less players eligible, but like I said can we please not misrepresent the size of the challenge.

I’m not sure how big your pond is but the Ocean has approximately 352 quintillion gallons of water in it.

Now we find ourselves in a different position.

You accused it of being hyperbole by criticising it as hyperbole. If it is hyperbole you were criticising deliberate exaggeration because it what? Offended your sensibilities? No, of course not.

It's pretty well established that you thought it an unworthy exaggeration without giving heed to any knowledge considering that on the face of it we have lost access to thousands of players - this will include youth players, players in top tier sides that have neither been out on loan or played enough games to get enough points, as well as those players from the other leagues where it is harder or impossible to accrue points. It'll be thousands. Versus what is likely to be double digit players that meet the criteria from three leagues in Central/South America.

You clearly didn't know this at the start of your ongoing debacle here.

Yes it was serious in the sense of the change is absolutely massive. Every year in Europe, like in England, there are players released at youth levels, in their early 20's that will not accrue the points. We now are shut off to them.

Another aspect that no one has mentioned as we won't see this for a few years yet. Permits work on a 5yr renewal process. I don't know the ins and outs of that but if the same process is applied to a renewal then even players who play here who are released and their work permit is up for renewal, could also be problematic to sign.

Now I'm going to call it quits. It clearly was an exaggeration it clearly was hyperbole, at which point you clearly a)didn't know what that meant or b) took offence to the exaggeration. I'll say it again - I couldn't give a rats buttocks. I am free to exaggerate what I want, if you disagree with it, or dislike it, you'd better have something to your arsenal more than "that's hyperbole and it's wrong".

Especially when you then absolutely fail to understand the gravity of the subject, the numbers involved and fail to produce anything to back up your offence to intended exaggeration.

Next time, perhaps take your time to do a bit of easy, simple, research to teach yourself whether your offence is justified or not. In this case it isn't, not even remotely.

It's not hyperbole if I compare a pond to an Olympic swimming pool because that wouldn't be an exaggeration. 

[Monty13 2,235]

11 minutes ago, chicken said:

Now we find ourselves in a different position.

You accused it of being hyperbole by criticising it as hyperbole. If it is hyperbole you were criticising deliberate exaggeration because it what? Offended your sensibilities? No, of course not.

It's pretty well established that you thought it an unworthy exaggeration without giving heed to any knowledge considering that on the face of it we have lost access to thousands of players - this will include youth players, players in top tier sides that have neither been out on loan or played enough games to get enough points, as well as those players from the other leagues where it is harder or impossible to accrue points. It'll be thousands. Versus what is likely to be double digit players that meet the criteria from three leagues in Central/South America.

You clearly didn't know this at the start of your ongoing debacle here.

Yes it was serious in the sense of the change is absolutely massive. Every year in Europe, like in England, there are players released at youth levels, in their early 20's that will not accrue the points. We now are shut off to them.

Another aspect that no one has mentioned as we won't see this for a few years yet. Permits work on a 5yr renewal process. I don't know the ins and outs of that but if the same process is applied to a renewal then even players who play here who are released and their work permit is up for renewal, could also be problematic to sign.

Now I'm going to call it quits. It clearly was an exaggeration it clearly was hyperbole, at which point you clearly a)didn't know what that meant or b) took offence to the exaggeration. I'll say it again - I couldn't give a rats buttocks. I am free to exaggerate what I want, if you disagree with it, or dislike it, you'd better have something to your arsenal more than "that's hyperbole and it's wrong".

Especially when you then absolutely fail to understand the gravity of the subject, the numbers involved and fail to produce anything to back up your offence to intended exaggeration.

Next time, perhaps take your time to do a bit of easy, simple, research to teach yourself whether your offence is justified or not. In this case it isn't, not even remotely.

It's not hyperbole if I compare a pond to an Olympic swimming pool because that wouldn't be an exaggeration. 

I don’t need to do a factual analysis of how many players we’ve lost access to to know that comparing it to an ocean shrinking to a garden pond is patently false 😂.

You’ve literally written “it wasn’t hyperbole at all”.

Thats my point you’ve said something that’s clearly hyperbole, you literally can’t be serious, while continuing to maintain it isn’t. 😂 

Good to know you are now admitting to it being exaggeration and hyperbole, despite your previous continuous arguments to the contrary for some reason, so in fact things are nowhere near as bad as you were making out. I knew that, but good to hear it.

[king canary 7,609]

On 22/10/2022 at 19:37, Monty13 said:

It feels like a summer where individually I don’t think we’ve made a bad move either in or out, nothing you can truly point at as a mistake.

I think it’s unarguable that on paper we have one of, if not the, strongest squads in the division, but collectively I can’t help feeling we haven’t quite got what we need. Admittedly we’ve had piles of injuries, but that does shine the light on the backups and squad strength.

 

The balance feels totally off to me.

The midfield is full of players all with the same profile- nice on the ball, can pass but lightweight, inconsistent too easily bullied out of games. You can probably play with one or two of Nunez, Ramsey, Dowell, Sara and Cantwell but we're trying to play with 3 of them. 

Also break down the profiles of these players...

Cantwell- coming back from the most disappointing season of his career where he was essentially frozen out of the club

Ramsey- 19 with a sum total of 15 appearances before he joined

Dowell- played well in our last promotion season but never the most consistent player.

Hernandez- similar. Effective Championship squad player but not a consistent starter

Nunez & Sara- young players adjusting to a new country and a new league. Although it is frustrating to see our players from other leagues seem to take months to adjust while those at Burnley on Tuesday seem to be happily up and running.

Hayden- not kicked a ball in 10 months until the last couple of weeks.

We needed physicality and pace added to our team and outside of Hayden we added neither. Smith isn't getting the most from this group but I struggle to build a functional midfield 5 out of that group.

 

 

[hogesar 9,676]

14 minutes ago, king canary said:

The balance feels totally off to me.

The midfield is full of players all with the same profile- nice on the ball, can pass but lightweight, inconsistent too easily bullied out of games. You can probably play with one or two of Nunez, Ramsey, Dowell, Sara and Cantwell but we're trying to play with 3 of them. 

Also break down the profiles of these players...

Cantwell- coming back from the most disappointing season of his career where he was essentially frozen out of the club

Ramsey- 19 with a sum total of 15 appearances before he joined

Dowell- played well in our last promotion season but never the most consistent player.

Hernandez- similar. Effective Championship squad player but not a consistent starter

Nunez & Sara- young players adjusting to a new country and a new league. Although it is frustrating to see our players from other leagues seem to take months to adjust while those at Burnley on Tuesday seem to be happily up and running.

Hayden- not kicked a ball in 10 months until the last couple of weeks.

We needed physicality and pace added to our team and outside of Hayden we added neither. Smith isn't getting the most from this group but I struggle to build a functional midfield 5 out of that group.

 

 

I'll agree with earlier in the season but if we can't make a midfield work between:

- Hayden

- Mclean

- Nunez

- Cantwell

- Sara

- Hernandez

- Ramsey

- Dowell

- Gibbs

Then that's on Smith. We were able to control games start to finish with Mclean and Skipp 2 season ago. Or Skipp and Rupp.

[Ulfotto 635]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I'll agree with earlier in the season but if we can't make a midfield work between:

- Hayden

- Mclean

- Nunez

- Cantwell

- Sara

- Hernandez

- Ramsey

- Dowell

- Gibbs

Then that's on Smith. We were able to control games start to finish with Mclean and Skipp 2 season ago. Or Skipp and Rupp.

Looking at that midfield group  I would argue that the attitude of we have a squad capable of romping the league is miles off

.
Potentially a three of Hayden, Nunez and Sara is a good midfield but Hayden hasn’t played for months and Sara and Nunez are completely new to English football.

 

[king canary 7,609]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I'll agree with earlier in the season but if we can't make a midfield work between:

- Hayden

- Mclean

- Nunez

- Cantwell

- Sara

- Hernandez

- Ramsey

- Dowell

- Gibbs

Then that's on Smith. We were able to control games start to finish with Mclean and Skipp 2 season ago. Or Skipp and Rupp.

In part that is because Skipp is an absolute top player- he was far too good for the Championship.

I think looking at the list of individuals you've got a number of good players but it still speaks to the lack of balance.

Who are the wide players for instance- Onel and...? Dowell, Cantwell, Ramsey even Nunez all strike me as players who ideally need to playing further up the field with a more solid double pivot behind them to get the most from their games. If we're playing 4-2-3-1 for instance it feels like we've got about 7 players who can play in the 3 and 2 who are comfortable in the deeper positions. Add in that most of the attacking players have a history on inconsistency and I don't massively blame Smith for chopping and changing the midfield.

[chicken 2,627]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

In part that is because Skipp is an absolute top player- he was far too good for the Championship.

I think looking at the list of individuals you've got a number of good players but it still speaks to the lack of balance.

Who are the wide players for instance- Onel and...? Dowell, Cantwell, Ramsey even Nunez all strike me as players who ideally need to playing further up the field with a more solid double pivot behind them to get the most from their games. If we're playing 4-2-3-1 for instance it feels like we've got about 7 players who can play in the 3 and 2 who are comfortable in the deeper positions. Add in that most of the attacking players have a history on inconsistency and I don't massively blame Smith for chopping and changing the midfield.

Agreed. I think a lot of people are still unsure of some of those players best positions hence there are often comments about them.

Eg; some folks believe Cantwell is better suited to being a No.10, others feel the same about Dowell. Then you have Ramsey. Again, there is some suggestion that Nunez would be happier there.

At which point who offers us the more natural width? Onel? Sinani?

The overall point is, despite being here for a number of seasons and having been played in most of said positions and more - no one can hand on heart say Cantwell is 100% better as a no.10, because it just isn't true. And that is down to the players nailing those positions or being so good in those positions that the decision is pushed elsewhere. 

 

[Monty13 2,235]

11 hours ago, king canary said:

The balance feels totally off to me.

The midfield is full of players all with the same profile- nice on the ball, can pass but lightweight, inconsistent too easily bullied out of games. You can probably play with one or two of Nunez, Ramsey, Dowell, Sara and Cantwell but we're trying to play with 3 of them. 

Also break down the profiles of these players...

Cantwell- coming back from the most disappointing season of his career where he was essentially frozen out of the club

Ramsey- 19 with a sum total of 15 appearances before he joined

Dowell- played well in our last promotion season but never the most consistent player.

Hernandez- similar. Effective Championship squad player but not a consistent starter

Nunez & Sara- young players adjusting to a new country and a new league. Although it is frustrating to see our players from other leagues seem to take months to adjust while those at Burnley on Tuesday seem to be happily up and running.

Hayden- not kicked a ball in 10 months until the last couple of weeks.

We needed physicality and pace added to our team and outside of Hayden we added neither. Smith isn't getting the most from this group but I struggle to build a functional midfield 5 out of that group.

 

 

Exactly, pretty much agree with everything you’ve said. Was trying to be a little cute with the OP, but I think this summer is starting to look poor in context.

[Monty13 2,235]

11 hours ago, hogesar said:

I'll agree with earlier in the season but if we can't make a midfield work between:

- Hayden

- Mclean

- Nunez

- Cantwell

- Sara

- Hernandez

- Ramsey

- Dowell

- Gibbs

Then that's on Smith. We were able to control games start to finish with Mclean and Skipp 2 season ago. Or Skipp and Rupp.

Out of interest, what do you think is the killer midfield from those players? I think individually they all look like talents, collectively I don’t see the obviously brilliant midfield we have.

[chicken 2,627]

37 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Out of interest, what do you think is the killer midfield from those players? I think individually they all look like talents, collectively I don’t see the obviously brilliant midfield we have.

I know you didn't ask me but... if being brutally honest the only two players on that list who you know what will give you every time they are out there are McLean and Hayden. One of whom is consistent the other isn't yet 90mins fit but has shown us consistency until he runs out of gas.

Nunez is probably not far behind, but is inconsistent, as you'd expect of a 22yr old in their first season in Europe. Gibbs too to be fair. 

If you were going to say the player that has given us the best ceiling, as in, when they are on form, who is the best talent? Cantwell. I don't think any of the others come close to him when he is really on it. Not creatively, not for tracking up and down.

What's more worrying is that of those players listed, we could face the prospect of losing 6 out of 9 come the summer. That leaves us hoping that Sara, Nunez and Gibbs have what it takes.