Isaac Hayden - First appearance

[Canary dwarf 221]

I was really encouraged by his performance considering he's not 100 percent , teams have been cutting through us far to easily , Hayden could be the answer , now if only we can find some creativity!

[nutty nigel 7,537]

7 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Not necessarily.... As a two, they're fine, Sarge on the left works too,on the right not so much. They'd also work as an interchangeable 1 - 1 , or sarge up top and Pukki at 10.  

I get the feeling you don't rate the Pukkster . 

They're more than fine corkio👍

If they carry on scoring as they are they will get 40 between them this season. Neither would get that on their own. If you have two firing goal scorers they both need to play.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Hayden and Lungi's the pairing I'd really want to see. That should set the full backs loose. That could also help in terms of creativity as both full backs piling up should create more space for a more creatively minded midfielder, so a Nunez, Cantwell, Dowell to find better passes, or at least have a bit more margin for error.

Edited October 16, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[canarybubbles 1,919]

8 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

They're more than fine corkio👍

If they carry on scoring as they are they will get 40 between them this season. Neither would get that on their own. If you have two firing goal scorers they both need to play.

Yes, in a system that accommodates both of them. Where is that?

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,319]

11 hours ago, Petriix said:

Nunez isn't a wide player. I'd have Cantwell left and Hernandez or Sinani right. Otherwise the same.

We really are lacking quality and competition in the wide areas while having a glut of 8s and 10s with just one 6 (who's only just getting fit).

I wasn't expecting him to be an out and out wide player in that formation to be honest...

 

The vision is he'd drift inside to supply also while leaving space on the right for max to bomb into, then in possession turnover he'd be back out on the right to supply cover for max too. 

Where as Onel on the left is very much expected to hug the touchline and whip in balls for Sarge to nod down to teemu or into top bins. 

 

(I'll hand my application into Mr 90% next week 🤣) 

[Newtopia 517]

9 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Hayden and Lungi's the pairing I'd really want to see. That should set the full backs loose. That could also help in terms of creativity as both full backs piling up should create more space for a more creatively minded midfielder, so a Nunez, Cantwell, Dowell to find better passes, or at least have a bit more margin for error.

Do you think Smith hopes to release the full backs?  I reckon he wants solid dull fullbacks - although I am not sure, our approach changes so often i am not sure either way.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Newtopia

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

11 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

Do you think Smith hopes to release the full backs?  I reckon he wants solid dull fullbacks - although I am not sure, our approach changes so often i am not sure either way.

I certainly do. I'll tag @aBee as he'll know more, but from what I recall, his Brentford sides liked the full-backs a long way up with someone anchoring the fort in the middle.

Don't forget, we've had defensive midfielders out and two major signings working their way back off serious injuries or operations, a very unbalanced central midfield with square pegs in round holes and Gibbs being asked to play to his limits as a promising youngster. Worse still, we've two left-backs out and the understudy in Lungi and at right-back we're down to the bare bones as the back-up right-back is playing on the left and is clearly out of position!

As much as I accept that the performances are stolid and dull to watch, I do understand that Smith's still got to get his best side out this season whilst the likes of Nunez and Sara are getting used to English football, or in the case of Gibbs, getting used to this level of football. And as I essentially said in my previous post, if you don't have width, you make it far harder for your creative players to create as they have to thread needles for it to work.

I'd be very surprised if we don't see some very attacking full-backs soon, and we certainly will if Giannoulis comes back.

[BroadstairsR 2,173]

Back to topic re: Hayden.

Quite frankly, it wasn't his initial performance I was worried about. It was bound to be rather reserved. He was never going to explode upon the scene. He could have score-rated a three for all I care.

I was more worried about that knee of his surviving the pressures of combat at the highest level.

When he once went down injured, I suspect most of us had a temporary bout of the sh-ites. Even Dean Smith let his tea get cold whilst being fixated on the physio.

Don't forget, many on here were forecasting that we would never witness him in the yellow. 

Now, let's hope that this week reveals no after effects.

We'll possibly see the best of Hayden after the World Cup break.

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by BroadstairsR

[Newtopia 517]

8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I certainly do. I'll tag @aBee as he'll know more, but from what I recall, his Brentford sides liked the full-backs a long way up with someone anchoring the fort in the middle.

Don't forget, we've had defensive midfielders out and two major signings working their way back off serious injuries or operations, a very unbalanced central midfield with square pegs in round holes and Gibbs being asked to play to his limits as a promising youngster. Worse still, we've two left-backs out and the understudy in Lungi and at right-back we're down to the bare bones as the back-up right-back is playing on the left and is clearly out of position!

As much as I accept that the performances are stolid and dull to watch, I do understand that Smith's still got to get his best side out this season whilst the likes of Nunez and Sara are getting used to English football, or in the case of Gibbs, getting used to this level of football. And as I essentially said in my previous post, if you don't have width, you make it far harder for your creative players to create as they have to thread needles for it to work.

I'd be very surprised if we don't see some very attacking full-backs soon, and we certainly will if Giannoulis comes back.

I hope you are right.  I am sceptical as we are flip flopping, and Dean has had the chance to shape the squad.  I am also old fashioned, and believe a team needs a clear focus and strategy, with  squad to match.  I understand how Hayden will fit in, but the squad should not have a single point of failure.  I am willing to accept Gibbs / Sorensen are our plan B at CDM, but I am not sure what formation / system we have recruited for.

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Just now, Newtopia said:

I hope you are right.  I am sceptical as we are flip flopping, and Dean has had the chance to shape the squad.  I am also old fashioned, and believe a team needs a clear focus and strategy, with  squad to match.  I understand how Hayden will fit in, but the squad should not have a single point of failure.  I am willing to accept Gibbs / Sorensen are our plan B at CDM, but I am not sure what formation / system we have recruited for.

 

That's the thing though, we've a fair few players out or working their way back, and it just happens that they're probably the key positions. Without a reasonably solid base in defensive midfield and the centre of defence, compromises have to be made elsewhere at the expense of creativity. As we have a promising youngster holding the fort or McLean, who is more of an attacking midfielder rather than a defensive one, the most obvious solution is to tell the full backs not to go so high and make a more substantial block when we're not in possession.

You mentioned "points of failure". I'm saying we're still having to hide several due to the injuries we currently have.

Chuck in the fact that both McCallum and Giannoulis are very much front-foot full backs, and Aarons is to a lesser extent, and I think a return to something more fluid can come naturally when everyone is fully fit. At the moment, Smith's having to muddle through and it's showing in some lacklustre performances.

[aBee 151]

32 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I certainly do. I'll tag @aBee as he'll know more, but from what I recall, his Brentford sides liked the full-backs a long way up with someone anchoring the fort in the middle.

Don't forget, we've had defensive midfielders out and two major signings working their way back off serious injuries or operations, a very unbalanced central midfield with square pegs in round holes and Gibbs being asked to play to his limits as a promising youngster. Worse still, we've two left-backs out and the understudy in Lungi and at right-back we're down to the bare bones as the back-up right-back is playing on the left and is clearly out of position!

As much as I accept that the performances are stolid and dull to watch, I do understand that Smith's still got to get his best side out this season whilst the likes of Nunez and Sara are getting used to English football, or in the case of Gibbs, getting used to this level of football. And as I essentially said in my previous post, if you don't have width, you make it far harder for your creative players to create as they have to thread needles for it to work.

I'd be very surprised if we don't see some very attacking full-backs soon, and we certainly will if Giannoulis comes back.

Broadly speaking this is right. Our first signing in his first full season was Rico Henry from his previous club, Walsall, who we bought even though injured at the time and who’s done very well since (though it is only in the last 2-3 seasons his crossing and shooting has started to get to the levels of his defending). Our RB at the time was Maxim Colin who is also good going forward. Smith also, just before going to Villa, experimented with Canos at RWB. One of the reasons Smith doesn’t typically get credited much for this approach is that we didn’t quite have the right CDM to play it consistently enough to challenge top 6 and only got that player the season after when we bought Norgaard- he had to try and get one of Woods, Sawyers and McEachran to do that job but none were really up to that. 
 

It’s notable that at Villa he used Targett and Cash a lot as attacking full backs. 
 

Smith’s a more attacking manager than he’s usually credited for but is heavily reliant on having the right quality of players in centre midfield to enable his FBs to get forward. 

[jaberry2 550]

It will be interesting to see whether we can give Hayden more minutes this early again, as i suspect it might be too tough an ask and foolish to risk him. Its encouraging to see him back and will allow us to be more fluid front to back and will break up play.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

24 minutes ago, aBee said:

Broadly speaking this is right. Our first signing in his first full season was Rico Henry from his previous club, Walsall, who we bought even though injured at the time and who’s done very well since (though it is only in the last 2-3 seasons his crossing and shooting has started to get to the levels of his defending). Our RB at the time was Maxim Colin who is also good going forward. Smith also, just before going to Villa, experimented with Canos at RWB. One of the reasons Smith doesn’t typically get credited much for this approach is that we didn’t quite have the right CDM to play it consistently enough to challenge top 6 and only got that player the season after when we bought Norgaard- he had to try and get one of Woods, Sawyers and McEachran to do that job but none were really up to that. 
 

It’s notable that at Villa he used Targett and Cash a lot as attacking full backs. 
 

Smith’s a more attacking manager than he’s usually credited for but is heavily reliant on having the right quality of players in centre midfield to enable his FBs to get forward. 

Yep, that bit in bold is absolutely key and I think some of us are getting a bit jittery as a result. We've had a decent run of results with a formation / approach that is still a work in progress and will remain such until key components are back off the injury list. Hayden, with Lungi and Gibbs around, are the anchors. In fact, I think Gibbs is the McLean replacement as he's more creative in escaping presses than Lungi with the ball at his feet, also looks like he's got more pace and also looks like he's got a box-to-box engine on him.

In this regard Smith is very similar to Farke in that both managers like their full-backs well up the pitch to create space for creative midfielders. The difference is that Farke relied on possession as a primary defence and we were always extremely vulnerable when not in possession. However, when we kept hold of it and made the opposition run, we tired them out and made them more vulnerable in the later stages of games. Hence so many late goals. Farke preferred a deep-lying playmaker but Smith seems to prefer a more destructive sort in the deep to hold position and provide more of a shield. That's the fundamental difference between the two from what I see.

Tell Lungi and Hayden to sit, Gibbs, Sara and Nunez to go box-to-box, and there's a real weapon in that somewhere - and it should get Giannoulis up the pitch where he can cause his own brand of mayhem.

Edited October 17, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[hogesar 9,676]

27 minutes ago, aBee said:

Broadly speaking this is right. Our first signing in his first full season was Rico Henry from his previous club, Walsall, who we bought even though injured at the time and who’s done very well since (though it is only in the last 2-3 seasons his crossing and shooting has started to get to the levels of his defending). Our RB at the time was Maxim Colin who is also good going forward. Smith also, just before going to Villa, experimented with Canos at RWB. One of the reasons Smith doesn’t typically get credited much for this approach is that we didn’t quite have the right CDM to play it consistently enough to challenge top 6 and only got that player the season after when we bought Norgaard- he had to try and get one of Woods, Sawyers and McEachran to do that job but none were really up to that. 
 

It’s notable that at Villa he used Targett and Cash a lot as attacking full backs. 
 

Smith’s a more attacking manager than he’s usually credited for but is heavily reliant on having the right quality of players in centre midfield to enable his FBs to get forward. 

Thanks for the info @aBee

[Petriix 2,838]

In my opinion Dean Smith sets us up with far too much emphasis on attack (and attacking players in general) rather than finding a good balance between attack and defence.

As a result the midfield are susceptible to being caught too high, leaving overloads for the opposition to exploit. With a better shape out of possession we'd be far harder to beat, which is exactly what we need to be if we're going to be able to compete with better teams.

Hayden dropping between the centre backs is a good sign - it frees them to cover the wide areas where we leave lots of space and affords the fullbacks a bit more licence going forwards.

I'd really like to see Gibbs as the box-to-box 8 with Nunez competing with Dowell and Sara at 10; the latter potentially playing as the 8 or even out wide. 

[nutty nigel 7,537]

7 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Yes, in a system that accommodates both of them. Where is that?

Most managers seem to play different variations of systems in order to put out the best team. Pukki and Sargent have scored 12 so far this season in whatever system it's been. That equates to 40 goals over a season. Surely they should both play?

[ZLF 274]

On 16/10/2022 at 11:50, Barham Blitz said:

 Kenny... really doesn't have the...positional discipline .  

I know this is taken out of context but its been a feature for months, irrespective of where he starts.   He is one of the most senior players,  happy to point out others failures yet doesnt have positional discipline full stop.    Gibbs covering his left back position as he wanders to the middle and then right has happened far too often this season.   Gibbs may have been over run on sat, bu the lack of support from his senior partner was shocking.

On sat he played cm, not dcm, which is he strength,  yet failed to support Gibbs or provide cover for theopening goal as he ambled back,   ACM in the rejigged 2nd half,  when dowell is a far more naturally suited option in the central tole and finally left back;  having a good engine being vocal and winning the occasional header doesnt make him so essential that we play him anywhere to keep him on the pitch - a utility jack of all trades who is currently off his best form and best suited to the bench.   Gibbs and hayden ahead of him every time for me. 

[Mike w 46]

On 16/10/2022 at 08:35, Capt. Pants said:

Encouraging start indeed.

Slightly concerning that even at 75% fit he's already our best midfielder.

It's really quite alarming now poor we are in that area. Hopefully Isaac can help organise that better.

absolutely agree. Cannot wait until he is a regular starter. Certainly put our other midfielders to shame with his encouragement.  Just need two fullbacks to do their job in marking wingers . Too much room given