This language is not okay .

[chicken 2,627]

21 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Not just people of the right, Badger. People of the left choose to cancel feminists and use the term TERF as a slur against them for believing that biological sex plays a part in gender. Let's be balanced about this.

Actually I think Badger was trying to be balanced.

I think if you are to make a genuine attempt to be balanced then you would have to describe the political spectrum as a sphere, rather than a line with a defined point at either end. History, both old and modern, give us examples of people claiming to be one extreme but acting like the other as veiled attempts at getting people to follow them, for example.

In this instance, I think a fair and balanced view is that in UK society, which we are reflecting here as this is about NCFC and being in the stands at football games, is that there are far more examples of people being homophobic, racist, xenophobic, transphobic etc and supporting right leaning politics than there is left. I don't think that is stating anything but the obvious. And more often than not, balance is about reflecting reality rather than trying to skew it. The numbers are not equal on both sides of the divide, and I haven't seen anyone say anything to the contrary of that, or that it doesn't exist on one and not the other.

[Big Vince 318]

Why can't those who opposed Chase be demonised as well?

[Google Bot 3,278]

Just now, Badger said:

I'm sure that the campaign is well-intentioned but I can't imagine an anti-racism campaign using the same tactic would be acceptable?

Interesting...

My thinking is that the club is better placed to represent the LGBT community so can put something like this out. 

BLM, could use that tactic with racial slurs, and it would be better accepted than if we did. So I think it's very much a case of context and representation maybe?

 

[TIL 1010 4,750]

I understand that Twatter has posts from Proud Canaries taking the club to task over the matter of their release as they are not happy.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

11 minutes ago, chicken said:

Actually I think Badger was trying to be balanced.

I think if you are to make a genuine attempt to be balanced then you would have to describe the political spectrum as a sphere, rather than a line with a defined point at either end. History, both old and modern, give us examples of people claiming to be one extreme but acting like the other as veiled attempts at getting people to follow them, for example.

In this instance, I think a fair and balanced view is that in UK society, which we are reflecting here as this is about NCFC and being in the stands at football games, is that there are far more examples of people being homophobic, racist, xenophobic, transphobic etc and supporting right leaning politics than there is left. I don't think that is stating anything but the obvious. And more often than not, balance is about reflecting reality rather than trying to skew it. The numbers are not equal on both sides of the divide, and I haven't seen anyone say anything to the contrary of that, or that it doesn't exist on one and not the other.

If you think it is a numbers game (your quote: there are far more examples of people being homophobic, racist, xenophobic, transphobic etc), then the most victimised group would have to be women who make up around 50% of the population. They are victims of trans activists who seek to occupy women's only spaces such as prisons and refuges, seek to undermine women's sports and seek to deny the whole biological basis of being a woman. This can be summed up as a level of misogyny against every woman that exists unparalleled in human history. Perhaps the club should be speaking about this greater injustice.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,432]

7 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

I understand that Twatter has posts from Proud Canaries taking the club to task over the matter of their release as they are not happy.

Yup . The PC’s are not happy . Often the people who know best , know best . The others just think they do . 
I think we can let the Proud Canaries tell us what is , and what is not , acceptable from their point of view.

Looks like an own goal by the Club. That makes a change this year . 

[Orly 277]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

Exactly! Thank you.

In simple terms - "the history of all hitherto existing societies is the history  of class struggle." 😉

As you say, "identity politics" would be in the same category as nationalism and patriotism - things that divert the proletariat away from the real struggle - class struggle. 

A Marxist would want people to ignore their race/ gender/ sexuality etc and to unite in the real struggle, against capitalism. We are all united by our relationship to the means of production.

People who believe identity politics is anything to do with Marxist ideology haven't a clue and reveal how gullible they are when they swallow this tripe.

I thought very much the same thing - I got defensive as a former Marx-admirer when hearing these accusations.

However, there are - seemingly at least - a new generation, savvy with social media -  that interweave identity politics alongside the economical aims of Marxism. I've met many in real life, and online.  There may not be as many as you'd think given their impact, but they are sure are loud, and particularly influential, due to the new incorporation of identity politics to run alongside their economic agenda.

Frankly, the economic agenda I'm fine with - I don't think it will work, but I'd give it a shot, as IMO that's a better way to address disparities between these various identity groups than more 'Tory austerity'.  

However, the change in the consistent message that "we're all different but are all worth precisely the same value", to "we're all different, so we're going to put you all in different groups AND treat you differently dependent on which group you belong to" can get in the effing sea.  

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Orly

[The Real Buh 3,444]

I don’t even know where to begin on this one guys.

[Orly 277]

And with regards to "the gays", I'll let my gay friends decide which language they're comfortable with me using. 

Not a football club's twitter feed.  If those two align, so be it.

[chicken 2,627]

23 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

If you think it is a numbers game (your quote: there are far more examples of people being homophobic, racist, xenophobic, transphobic etc), then the most victimised group would have to be women who make up around 50% of the population. They are victims of trans activists who seek to occupy women's only spaces such as prisons and refuges, seek to undermine women's sports and seek to deny the whole biological basis of being a woman. This can be summed up as a level of misogyny against every woman that exists unparalleled in human history. Perhaps the club should be speaking about this greater injustice.

No, I don't think it's a "numbers game" - it's not a game at all, frankly.

Equally though, as you clearly think it is, I wonder how many of these "trans activists" you speak of there are, and how many incidents you mention occur?

Though I agree women remain to be one of the most victimised groups, but not for the reasons you give. Also, I'm not sure women as a collective group would be considered as a minority group either because they actually make up more than 50% of the population. 

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

I haven't time to read this whole thread. Maybe someone can provide a TL;DR version.

But it's interesting the football club are focussing on the use of language. Because language changes over time.

Queer, for example, was for decades used as a derogatory term. Until it was reclaimed by the non-heterosexual community. Now there's such a thing as Queer Theory to be studied at universities.

As for the club using a large wall of insulting terms. I think it's well intended, but maybe misguided. Could you imagine a wall covered with derogatory terms for black people, disabled people or immigrants with footballers throwing paint balls at it. It's slightly surreal.

[The Real Buh 3,444]

Here’s my take on it.

heterosexual, white, black, gay, queer, LGBT+, disabled, non-disabled.

I can’t implore you enough.

quit social media

[1902 1,167]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Not just people of the right, Badger. People of the left choose to cancel feminists and use the term TERF as a slur against them for believing that biological sex plays a part in gender. Let's be balanced about this.

What does "cancel" even mean though. Half the people claiming to be cancelled seem to be saying that they can say whatever they want (fair enough) and then they have to be immune from criticism (complete ****).

Particularly bad are those trying to sell something or who have plenty of exposure anyway.

Bloody Jimmy Carr claiming he has been cancelled. No, you just said a load of **** jokes that people didn't find funny and thought were targeting people who didn't deserve it and now they don't want to buy your tickets cos they don't like you much anymore. That's called being in entertainment. 

Laurence Fox being on TV for 2 years spouting his views whilst saying he had been cancelled despite the only thing he ever did was be the support act in a mediocre remake of Morse.

JK Rowling is a very rich woman who choose to express her views on trans people, and then people (like in all free societies) decide whether they like her or not based on those views. She isn't being starved out of her home for god sake.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Funny how many label me “far right” simply for not being “hard left”! 

I am in no way hard right. Indeed my beef is against extremist and divisive fringe politics entering sport. I abhor hard right as much as hard left as it happens. I also abhor racism etc  So stop labelling others might be a good start to find balance, respect each other and actually hear what is being said 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Dean Coneys boots

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

The art of debate involves listening to viewpoints you disagree with not cancelling them because they don’t sit in your camp. 

That coming from the guy who wants to cancel the club having its say on racism and homophobia is just hilarious.

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

There is also this 

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/amp/

or this 

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/black-lives-matters-goes-full-marxist

Perhaps you should spend a little more time (or just some time) checking out the credibility of the sources you link.

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Because I don’t much like the infiltration of left wing identity politics into sport? 

But would be happy to let racism and homophobia go unchecked on the terraces because you are offended by the club doing something to prevent it. 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

8 minutes ago, horsefly said:

But would be happy to let racism and homophobia go unchecked on the terraces because you are offended by the club doing something to prevent it. 

Where did I ever say that? 
I was a great fan of kick it out - an in house, non political anti racism campaign within football 

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Here is the independent 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/blm-taking-knee-euros-communism-b1864041.html?amp

And a quote from one of the founders 

“The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers,” she said. “We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk.”

 

 

And yet again you simply ignore the FACT that no individual, or individual group owns or controls the BLM movement. Seems when I ironically asked, "I take it you know what is meant by a "decentralised political and social movement...with no formal hierarchy"? (i.e. The opposite of a Marxist organisation)" I should have known that you clearly don't understand what that means. So let me try to help with an example close to home. The NCFC fan base is identifiable by its support for the causes related to the success of NCFC. Nobody owns or controls that fan base, it is constituted by a variety of people from a variety of political perspectives. If some of those fans happen to be Marxists that doesn't mean the whole fan base is Marxist, just as a few Ukippers wouldn't make the fan base all fascists. Similarly BLM is identifiable by its concerns with racial equality, it has no formal alignment with any one political viewpoint (such as Marxism). Many different people and groups adopt the BLM tag to show their identity with the cause of racial equality, nothing more, nothing less. It really isn't that difficult to grasp if you have a mind open to the facts rather than a political axe to grind.

[horsefly 4,301]

7 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Where did I ever say that? 
I was a great fan of kick it out - an in house, non political anti racism campaign within football 

You objected to the official post from the club saying that such language was unacceptable at NCFC. It follows that if you object to the club making such comments, you want them to do nothing to stop people using that language on the terraces.

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Similarly rainbow pride month is linked to leftist identity politics hence many gay people don’t go in for it either. 

How many? Obviously you have canvassed the opinion of all the UK's gay population, so I'm sure you'll be able to assist us with the figures

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

No. I objected to the patronising way it was done and the trend for football clubs, like so many corporations, to engage in easy political virtue signalling whilst not actually tackling the root causes. Hence my example of PSG and it’s owner. The discussion then moved onto BLM who I do not approve of due to their Marxist links and agenda which hides behind their populist slogans. Which neither makes me a racist nor hard right. I’m neither. 
 

Read more carefully please and stop putting words in my mouth please. 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

How many? Obviously you have canvassed the opinion of all the UK's gay population, so I'm sure you'll be able to assist us with the figures

Don’t be daft. Of course I haven’t. But I already quoted Douglas Murray as one good example and know plenty of others.

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Haus said:

That article is absolutely nuts - it reads like a conspiracy theory page.

I began to wonder if it was a spoof. Hilarious to think that a fundamentalist Catholic rag wants to lecture others on extremism and law breaking. Perhaps it had forgotten the Catholic church's recent history of harbouring Na*zis, supporting right-wing murderous dictatorships, and virtually institutionalising child abuse.

[horsefly 4,301]

Just now, Dean Coneys boots said:

Don’t be daft. Of course I haven’t. But I already quoted Douglas Murray as one good example and know plenty of others.

Best not to make wild claims you can't support then, don't you think (or did Douglas Murray canvass the whole of the UK's gay population?).

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Looks like Peter Tatchell would agree 

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/28/pride-rainbow-branded-capitalism-stonewall-lgbt

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Never read the mail. Have voted labour and conservative in my time. I’m fairly centrist- hence my dislike of hard left and hard right fringe movements 

How do you explain your previous links to right wing extremist publications then?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

What a backwards way of thinking. 

Well you carry on discussing it and putting out pamphlets and really changing things.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

How do you explain your previous links to right wing extremist publications then?

 I searched quickly for articles exposing the links between BLM and Marxism. It doesn’t take a genius to work out why these might be found in right leaning press. 
 

But don’t stand there and claim moral high ground. Just look at your last vile post in which you write bigoted hate filled things about Catholicism. Clearly you don’t actually believe in respect, anti hate and tolerance. You just like some minority groups more than others 

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

No it isn’t - it’s a viewpoint that is apolitical 

It is a standard right wing staple to complain that any organisation stating its non-tolerance to racism, homophobia etc, has overstepped it's authority. So yes it is a political viewpoint. Frankly I find it bizarre that someone who protests he is against racism and homophobia is so vexed by the club making a statement that homophobic and racist language will not be tolerated at the ground.