This language is not okay .

[littleyellowbirdie 2,603]

What happens on a football pitch, in the crowds, in the board room, or in the dressing room is subject to the law of the land. Racism and homophobic attacks are against the law of the land, so if these things happen, clubs and the FA should seek to assist in enforcing the law of the land and ensure that guilty parties are dealt with. If that includes bans from clubs then that's great. However, the only effect of incorporating anti-racist/LGBTQ+ campaigning into the proceedings of football has been to bring divisions in wider politics into football as well, to the detriment of the sport itself. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Badger 2,412]

4 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

“More than anything, your naivety* shows why the continued education is so vital!

*(possible generous?)”

Badger - 9th June.

 

At last! I thought that you would never see the point!

[Midlands Yellow 4,085]

Nice to see everyone’s come together on this subject. 

[Badger 2,412]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

However, the only effect of incorporating anti-racist/LGBTQ+ campaigning into the proceedings of football has been to bring divisions in wider politics into football as well, to the detriment of the sport itself. 

It has not been the only effect of anti-racist/ LGBTQ+ campaigning though!

The campaigns have been highly effective at making racism, sexism and homophobia socially unacceptable in football and have changed what is "acceptable" quite fundamentally. Anyone who attended football in the 70s and 80s will be able to attest to this.

As this thread has demonstrated, there are still a tiny (but vocal) minority who retain their outdated prejudices unfortunately and are happy to repeat the clichés of well-funded groups who oppose racial and gender equality.

[Naturalcynic 676]

21 minutes ago, Badger said:

It has not been the only effect of anti-racist/ LGBTQ+ campaigning though!

The campaigns have been highly effective at making racism, sexism and homophobia socially unacceptable in football and have changed what is "acceptable" quite fundamentally. Anyone who attended football in the 70s and 80s will be able to attest to this.

As this thread has demonstrated, there are still a tiny (but vocal) minority who retain their outdated prejudices unfortunately and are happy to repeat the clichés of well-funded groups who oppose racial and gender equality.

Despite your snide allegations, I don’t think anyone’s demonstrated “outdated prejudices”, unless you count yourself for your complete unwillingness to accept that other people might have perfectly reasonable opinions that differ from yours, i.e. racism, sexism, homophobia etc are unacceptable but that laws already exist to deal with all of that and that football clubs should focus on the football.  No, you seem intent on educating, re-educating and then educating some more to force everyone to think in the way you say they should. And perhaps you’d advocate education “camps” for those who resist and that you consider are still guilty of thoughtcrime.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[Badger 2,412]

1 minute ago, Naturalcynic said:

Perhaps you’d also advocate education “camps” for those who you still consider guilty of thoughtcrime.

This is, perhaps, the most revealing part of your rant. The far-right racist and white supremacist groups in the United States use precisely this type of cliché. They are protecting American freedoms against the "commies" and racial groups who want to take it away from them. I am aware it is patronising to you but you have just demonstrated exactly the sort of gullibility to which I referred above.

You really should ask yourself why you think  football clubs, businesses etc promoting racial and gender equality is such a threat to your freedom.

I fear however, that you may have been brainwashed. 😪

[Naturalcynic 676]

3 minutes ago, Badger said:

This is, perhaps, the most revealing part of your rant. The far-right racist and white supremacist groups in the United States use precisely this type of cliché. They are protecting American freedoms against the "commies" and racial groups who want to take it away from them. I am aware it is patronising to you but you have just demonstrated exactly the sort of gullibility to which I referred above.

You really should ask yourself why you think  football clubs, businesses etc promoting racial and gender equality is such a threat to your freedom.

I fear however, that you may have been brainwashed. 😪

I’m sure you’re a lovely person in reality, but on here I’m really struggling to see any redeeming features.  Your tired old clichés where you label anything and anyone who disagrees with you as being far right, racist, white supremacist etc is pathetic as well as being totally and utterly without foundation and, frankly, completely incorrect.  For someone who comes across as being reasonably well educated I really do expect better from you.  Anyway, I’ve had enough of your self-righteous sanctimonious trolling and bid you farewell.

[Terminally Yellow 2,485]

2 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Nice to see everyone’s come together on this subject. 

Did you expect any different? 

[Midlands Yellow 4,085]

3 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Did you expect any different? 

To answer in your terminology, I don’t ****ing know. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,485]

Just now, Midlands Yellow said:

To answer in your terminology, I don’t ****ing know. 

Yes you ****ing do 😉

[Badger 2,412]

14 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

you label anything and anyone who disagrees with you as being far right, racist, white supremacist etc is pathetic 

For the record, if you check back you will see that it was DCB who introduced the issue of white supremacists. He had the good sense to withdraw from the thread when he realised he had said something particularly stupid, but for some reason, you jumped on my reply to him about it? (Wrong log in?)

He(?) said that BLM were obviously far left and extremists because amongst other things they wanted 

On 09/06/2022 at 10:50, Dean Coneys boots said:

abolition of systems and institutions of white supremacy

I think it is good that you withdraw from the thread - taking action to tackle racism, sexism and homophobia should not be seen as political or divisive - it is only extremists who see it as such.

I would suggest to you that before commenting on similar issues you should try to work out why you see action to tackle racism, sexism and homophobia as such a threat to you, although I am not sure that you will follow this well-intentioned advice.

[wcorkcanary 4,344]

15 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

advocate education “camps” for those who resist and that you consider are still guilty of thoughtcrime.

You've handed the win to Badgero there chap.

Own goal.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

 I see that the club have deleted the post.

They got quite a backlash from the LGBTQ community from what I saw, including from a load of Green Party folk. Some of the phrases weren't offensive and almost exclusively used by gay people themselves, including 'Twink'. 

Got a mental image of Big Gay Following from Balls of Steel shouting "Sort it out Cantwell, you bloody twink!".

[wcorkcanary 4,344]

10 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

 I see that the club have deleted the post.

They got quite a backlash from the LGBTQ community from what I saw, including from a load of Green Party folk. Some of the phrases weren't offensive and almost exclusively used by gay people themselves, including 'Twink'. 

Got a mental image of Big Gay Following from Balls of Steel shouting "Sort it out Cantwell, you bloody twink!".

Loved the  character BGF !!  Such a simple, stupid , funny concept, always made me chuckle. 

Effin minefield , what is and isn't acceptable to say. Basic guide to all that is only an N word can say N word, if you ain't in whatever club it is , don't join  in ot the lingo..... You'll be wrong. It's not like the woman on Airplane that 'speaks jive'...😁

I had no idea what a 'Badger' was until my niece , who works in a shop called Badger , told me her clientele were almost exclusively older, greying, gay men.....all of a sudden it made sense . Stylish clobber too.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Loved the  character BGF !!  Such a simple, stupid , funny concept, always made me chuckle. 

Effin minefield , what is and isn't acceptable to say. Basic guide to all that is only an N word can say N word, if you ain't in whatever club it is , don't join  in ot the lingo..... You'll be wrong. It's not like the woman on Airplane that 'speaks jive'...😁

I had no idea what a 'Badger' was until my niece , who works in a shop called Badger , told me her clientele were almost exclusively older, greying, gay men.....all of a sudden it made sense . Stylish clobber too.

So the issue here would be that Cantwell isn't homosexual (as far as we know)

A "twink" is usually considered a homosexual male with attractive, boyish qualities. Typically from the ages of 18-25, and often thought as a young, white, fashionable male.

But there have been lots of young gay men on twitter pointing out that they'd consider being called a 'twink' to be a big compliment, and how its bizarre to imagine it ever being used as an insult.

The clubs intentions were good, but feels a bit Partridge in their implementation! 

Edited June 13, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[canarydan23 4,060]

11 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Basic guide to all that is only an N word can say N word

Looking at this, the guide might need to get a whole lot more basic for you.

If you acquire common sense, you don't need a guide. However, a lot people on here would have more luck finding a Heartsease virgin holding a four-leaved clover in one hand and some hen's teeth in the other than a bit of common sense.

[wcorkcanary 4,344]

21 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Looking at this, the guide might need to get a whole lot more basic for you.

If you acquire common sense, you don't need a guide. However, a lot people on here would have more luck finding a Heartsease virgin holding a four-leaved clover in one hand and some hen's teeth in the other than a bit of common sense.

I may not have explained myself  well enough, my point was that it's extremely difficult to navigate your way through the shifting sands of acceptable language....as not all folks find the same words offensive or for that matter acceptable. As TuB pointed out , the word  Twink is ok in most of the gay world...as is Bear..a larger, hairy, gay man. 

Peoples diverse reactions to different words make common sense not the best aid. Because some of it defies common sense. A bit of nous will get you through most things but not when some people are looking to take offense, which , sad to say , is the case sometimes. I'm not trying to offend anyone and apologies if I have, inadvertently. I have family members that are gay and we've discussed this,they are pretty laid back , and pointed out that the intent is more relevant than the word.

PS I found that virgin on the Heartsease, not only was she as you described, but we shared a glass of gypsies tears before riding off into the sunset.

Edited June 13, 2022 by wcorkcanary

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, wcorkcanary said:

I may not have explained myself  well enough, my point was that it's extremely difficult to navigate your way through the shifting sands of acceptable language....as not all folks find the same words offensive or for that matter acceptable. As TuB pointed out , the word  Twink is ok in most of the gay world...as is Bear..a larger, hairy, gay man. 

Peoples diverse reactions to different words make common sense not the best aid. Because some of it defies common sense. A bit of nous will get you through most things but not when some people are looking to take offense, which , sad to say , is the case sometimes. I'm not trying to offend anyone and apologies if I have, inadvertently. I have family members that are gay and we've discussed this,they are pretty laid back , and pointed out that the intent is more relevant than the word.

 

It's not difficult to know you should refer to someone as "an N word", regardless of the context of your sentence. And it will only be a sentence, because you'd never have said it out loud in a public place. The same goes for a lot of the things that have been said in this thread; get people behind a keyboard and they suddenly become ****. I bet half these teeth-gnashing people actually getting hot under the collar about companies preaching LGBTQ issues would be quite nice to have a pint with and wouldn't say boo-to-a-goose if it walked into the pub giving out pride bracelets.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

40 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Loved the  character BGF !!  Such a simple, stupid , funny concept, always made me chuckle. 

Effin minefield , what is and isn't acceptable to say. Basic guide to all that is only an N word can say N word, if you ain't in whatever club it is , don't join  in ot the lingo..... You'll be wrong. It's not like the woman on Airplane that 'speaks jive'...😁

I had no idea what a 'Badger' was until my niece , who works in a shop called Badger , told me her clientele were almost exclusively older, greying, gay men.....all of a sudden it made sense . Stylish clobber too.

I have slipped up a few times through ignorance rather than hatred. I didn't know what some of the terms used meant. I mean I used to say thanks me old china or alright sunshine and now I'm told I must not use those expressions.

So the problem isn't usage but intent. I mean if you watch Frankie Boyle or Mock the Week, then anything is apparently acceptable if its comedy.

So a list of terms not to be used might help. On the other hand I don't need to be told not be racist or homophobic because I'm not. But I do think education is a waste of time. Because without typecasting individuals, I have seen the composition of a Robinson rally and believe education bypassed them anyway.

[Google Bot 3,329]

2 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

my point was that it's extremely difficult to navigate your way through the shifting sands of acceptable language....as not all folks find the same words offensive or for that matter acceptable

If you're looking for businesses to define that language it's a rather hopeless situation anyway.  They're mainly doing it for PR reasons.

[wcorkcanary 4,344]

1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

If you're looking for businesses to define that language it's a rather hopeless situation anyway.  They're mainly doing it for PR reasons.

I'm not looking for anything, fortunately. Merely pointing out that trying to discuss this is like entering Ambush Alley ...there's bogeymen waiting, poised to take offence round every corner and under most stones.....and they've all got  different trigger points. Good luck Humans.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

On 11/06/2022 at 14:25, littleyellowbirdie said:

What happens on a football pitch, in the crowds, in the board room, or in the dressing room is subject to the law of the land. Racism and homophobic attacks are against the law of the land, so if these things happen, clubs and the FA should seek to assist in enforcing the law of the land and ensure that guilty parties are dealt with. If that includes bans from clubs then that's great. However, the only effect of incorporating anti-racist/LGBTQ+ campaigning into the proceedings of football has been to bring divisions in wider politics into football as well, to the detriment of the sport itself. 

I would disagree. It's not brought divisions, it may have made some people uncomfortable with the truth and has allowed other groups a voice. Not bringing attention to issues just means gay people stay silence and other stay away entirely. If you don't make a safe environment for all then it's not an inclusive sport.

Also, not sure why you'd criticism positive anti-racist or LGBTQ+ messages unless you didn't agree with the sentiment.

Also, don't get the don't bring politics into football as it's already there with ticket pricing, away allocations, family areas, seating / standing / poppy day commemorations, travel to and from grounds, salary caps, disabled access etc etc.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Kenny Foggo

[Google Bot 3,329]

26 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

I'm not looking for anything, fortunately. Merely pointing out that trying to discuss this is like entering Ambush Alley

Sorry, I meant to say "We" not "You".

And yes, it may be ambush alley, but it only becomes that the further people try to police others on how they 'think' we should all act.

I'd rather say the wrong thing, than nothing at all personally - hold my hands up if I get it wrong, and learn from that.  Big believer that it's the mistakes in life that builds your character it's up to society standing face to face where we appreciate what is acceptable or not.  Not some PR team with photoshop and a blank canvas to fill.

Oddly, My first hand knowledge of LGBT folks is they dislike the 'scene' and they actively dislike groups like the proud canaries.  It's being singled out and knowing people are adjusting how they act or speak to 'fit' them which causes most upset.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Google Bot

[littleyellowbirdie 2,603]

6 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I would disagree. It's not brought divisions, it may have made some people uncomfortable with the truth and has allowed other groups a voice. Not bringing attention to issues just means gay people stay silence and other stay away entirely. If you don't make a safe environment for all then it's not an inclusive sport.

Also, not sure why you'd criticism positive anti-racist or LGBTQ+ messages unless you didn't agree with the sentiment.

Also, don't get the don't bring politics into football as it's already there with ticket pricing, away allocations, family areas, seating / standing / poppy day commemorations, travel to and from grounds, salary caps, disabled access etc etc.

Of course it has created division. Players didn't routinely get booed at kick off until taking the knee came in as a regular thing; it's specifically the players making the gesture that is being booed and it's the political gesture itself that is being attacked. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

41 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Of course it has created division. Players didn't routinely get booed at kick off until taking the knee came in as a regular thing; it's specifically the players making the gesture that is being booed and it's the political gesture itself that is being attacked. 

Why boo players taking 10 seconds objecting to racism by a simple gesture unless you are about to tell me they are all communists? Are you saying Martin Luther King was a communist?

The players have on numerous occasions explained why they do it. I don't boo those that choose not to take the knee.

If you supported the players there would be no division.

You have every right to express your view, which is in itself political.

The vast majority of people have zero issue with taking the knee.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Kenny Foggo

[Terminally Yellow 2,485]

58 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Of course it has created division. Players didn't routinely get booed at kick off until taking the knee came in as a regular thing; it's specifically the players making the gesture that is being booed and it's the political gesture itself that is being attacked. 

Then stop treating it as a political gesture. You have to be particularly obtuse to believe taking the knee is a politically motivated gesture, even if it has been adopted as so by a significant minority. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,603]

39 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Why boo players taking 10 seconds objecting to racism by a simple gesture unless you are about to tell me they are all communists? Are you saying Martin Luther King was a communist?

The players have on numerous occasions explained why they do it. I don't boo those that choose not to take the knee.

If you supported the players there would be no division.

You have every right to express your view, which is in itself political.

The vast majority of people have zero issue with taking the knee.

You'd have to ask the people booing why they're booing the gesture.  The point is that they are booing the gesture, which shows that the gesture is causing division as I originally stated and with which you incorrectly disagreed.

Edited June 13, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,603]

21 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Then stop treating it as a political gesture. You have to be particularly obtuse to believe taking the knee is a politically motivated gesture, even if it has been adopted as so by a significant minority. 

But it is a political gesture; specifically a political gesture originally imported into British politics inspired by racism problems specific to the US. I personally resent the way that discussions of racism are dominated by rhetoric imported from the US, in spite of the severity of the issue being not remotely comparable in the UK to the US. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,485]

38 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

But it is a political gesture; specifically a political gesture originally imported into British politics inspired by racism problems specific to the US. I personally resent the way that discussions of racism are dominated by rhetoric imported from the US, in spite of the severity of the issue being not remotely comparable in the UK to the US. 

Absolute utter nonsense on every level. 

It's not a political gesture when the vast majority of people are using it as a means of demonstrating against racism. That you and a minority of others don't agree to that is irrelevant.

You need to learn to look beyond your own prejudices. The fact you see it as a political gesture doesn't mean everyone else does. Of course you absolutely have the right to express your own views. But you need to have the respect and understanding that this is how a vast majority of footballers are expressing their own views and respect that. 

Most of all, racism is a massive issue in this country. Since the pandemic alone, hate crimes are up 9%. Brexit, the increased amount of disinformation disseminated online, the way society seems so set on enforcing division and the way elements of the media report things like the channel crossings have inflamed matters significantly. I've seen it. A group of teens shown out for monkey chanting when I was watching a Lincoln City match at Sincil Bank during my uni days. An incident in Norwich when a black officer was called racist language. A nurse called homophobic names when I was in A&E with an ex by a drunk idiot he was actually trying to help.

I've no clue how bad things are in the US. But to minimise or downplay racism in the UK as a trivial issue that doesn't justify players taking the knee is at best ignoring an issue, at worst delusional.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Terminally Yellow

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You'd have to ask the people booing why they're booing the gesture.  The point is that they are booing the gesture, which shows that the gesture is causing division as I originally stated and with which you incorrectly disagreed.

Hopefully those booing will listen to why its happening and support the players as all rational sensible people. in my opinion, would. Long shot I know.... I can think of no other reason to boo the players other than you don't accept there is a problem or you are racist.