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1 minute ago, komakino said:

The issue you've raised is essentially that our owners are hopelessly and completely inadequate for top level football. They contribute nothing. And - currently at least - attract no outside investment either. So what the hell are they still doing here? Not in the interest of the club, that's for sure. 

Keeping in the Championship is not ideal - though the owners would arguably be much more comfortable - as the longer you're there, the harder it is to get back up. I have depressingly met some fans who either didn't want to go up last time and/or wanted to go down last season, which is almost unparalleled in football. Surely you want to make the most of getting back up - and staying there - because the austere way this club has been 'funded' over the last 20 years or so is not going with the tide and we've got to be careful we get washed back to League 1 until the majority shareholders realise football is does not exist for morality or community project purposes.  

Firstly, my point doesn't suggest for one minute that our owners are inadequate.   In my view they are pretty good owners and we have a well run club.   Not sure how you came to that conclusion.   

As a fan, I am as ambitious as any other fan and would much rather see us playing in the EPL despite its gross obscenities and blatant unfairness but ultimately only on the basis that we are 'competing' which was depressingly not the case these past few attempts.    I firmly believe that good planning, patience and opportunity can get us to a point where we can create a capable team but it needs time, patience and astute acquisitions (players with the right skill sets for the particular positions so we have a mix of pace, power, quality and nous.    In my view that should have started with us getting a couple of proper CDM's on our previous relegation.   We got Skipp who we could never sign and evidently never replace and to my mind thats flawed.    Yet everyone still wants to crack on down the same path.    What's that phrase about insanity..... now these are all the same fans that complained and complained about last seasons debacle yet are happy to risk another episode.    They can't answer the question 'if we get promoted how do we replace all these players that aren't good enough and how do we avoid the same fate.   Seriously the gap is far to wide to bridge!

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To ex[ect us to not have any loans is just ridiculous, no teams get promoted without loan players. Over the last 5 years seasons the promoted teams have had an average of 4.6 loan players (according to Transfermarkt), the majority of which weren't made permenant. I love the fact we are trying to do things differently with the self funding, but that is already tying one hand behind our backs compared to rivals, if we did it without loans as well then we woiuld not be able to compete at all...

 

21-22

Fulham 2

Bournemouth 6

Forest 5

 

20-21

Us  - 4

Brentford 2

Watford 2

 

19-20

Fulham 6

Leeds 6

WBA  5

 

18-19

Us 1

Sheff Utd 7

Villa 7

 

17-18

Wolves 6

Cardiff 6

Fulham 6

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9 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Firstly, my point doesn't suggest for one minute that our owners are inadequate.   In my view they are pretty good owners and we have a well run club.   Not sure how you came to that conclusion.   

As a fan, I am as ambitious as any other fan and would much rather see us playing in the EPL despite its gross obscenities and blatant unfairness but ultimately only on the basis that we are 'competing' which was depressingly not the case these past few attempts.    I firmly believe that good planning, patience and opportunity can get us to a point where we can create a capable team but it needs time, patience and astute acquisitions (players with the right skill sets for the particular positions so we have a mix of pace, power, quality and nous.    In my view that should have started with us getting a couple of proper CDM's on our previous relegation.   We got Skipp who we could never sign and evidently never replace and to my mind thats flawed.    Yet everyone still wants to crack on down the same path.    What's that phrase about insanity..... now these are all the same fans that complained and complained about last seasons debacle yet are happy to risk another episode.    They can't answer the question 'if we get promoted how do we replace all these players that aren't good enough and how do we avoid the same fate.   Seriously the gap is far to wide to bridge!

The gap is too wide, granted. Few would disagree. And I don't like how we perform in the EPL either, though we arguably set ourselves up to fail. The desire is simply not there from top down. 

Given that fact, that is primarily why our owners are inadequate in the modern game. And it has been like that for a long time. 

If the gap doesn't narrow significantly - and there is no evidence that it will - the board has to be changed. If not, the club is heading further South - and for why? 

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Posted (edited)

Does the following help to explain our apparent "tardiness" at the moment - it's all to do with cash flow!

The club's finance team are really on top of cashflow mapping out precisely how much free cash is available at any point in time (the one thing our club is currently top of the league on I would suggest).  Key however is the owners are reluctant to borrow to finance anything really (be it operating, net player transfer or fixed asset expenditure). Parachute payments will eventually be paid over but they are paid in three stages with the first of those not arriving until after the window closes.  Our owners have also decided borrowing in lieu of the receipt of the parachute cash is a strategy they do not want to pursue. 

So under this policy we have to sell first to finance any new incoming, or at least match the cash flow terms of any incoming to an outgoing player deal.  I think this is why certain deals we have heard about in the past have not gone ahead, and I suspect that is the case in point at the moment.  It wouldn't surprise me if Twine is a current example of this where we may have had an agreement in place, but Burnley gazumped us because their owners are more prepared to finance the acquisition through borrowing.    

So I get that a lot on here think we have sufficient assets on paper when looking at our balance sheet to start buying immediately.  The problem being those assets are not particularly liquid, despite a few members of the squad that Smith has identified can leave.  The trouble is that his fellow managers have to disagree with him to solve this riddle and think those players are worth buying. Indeed even more frustratingly any manager who wants to buy one of our earmarked for sale players is more likely to face their own cashflow conundrum as well. 

So, as others have pointed out there is a lot going on at the moment, several players lined up to come and several of our players set to leave.  But cashflow has to be right on both parties to make them happen.

Of course, our owners could sanction the club taking on new borrowing facilities secured on the parachute payments, then we could break that log jam. In absence of this we have to wait for a few EPL clubs to splash out on lower league players first to start injection new cash into the system.  However historically this tends to happen after they have finished the deals with overseas players so is at the back end of the window.

We live on our nerves until then.....

Edited by shefcanary

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20 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I don't know what the scouts are doing, I know what they did last summer though!   Our foundations are based on scouting good young players and yes, others are looking too but we have to be better and of course what we did offer over others was 'opportunity' which is supposed to entice players to Norfolk.    

My point is that the quality of our current squad is adequate for the Championship but nowhere near good enough for the EPL so in my view I would rather see us consolidate, gamble on a year or two of good development (like we did when we brought Farke in) then having another crack when (and if) we've developed a better squad.  Primarily because I personally would rather spend an extra season or two, or three, or five or even ten more in the Championship than experience that debacle of last season again which in my opinion is where we are headed and no one on here has addressed how on earth we would replace 8-10 players if we do get promoted which is what we would need to do.   My argument isn't flawed its just different to yours.  

We may have the players, but will never know that unless they are given opportunity which won't happen if we play other teams players and continue playing lads that can't step up like McLean, Platcheta and far too many more.  Of course, we have no right to promotion but it does come across as if everyone is expecting its inevitable!    

Our desperation for promotion and the finance the EPL provides will continue to be our undoing unless somehow we find some absolute gems which you can't argue have been few and far between since Teemu and Emi.   There is no evidence the money has helped so far.   That's now two promotions where we've come out of it with nothing left to spend and with a worse team.     And furthermore, what is the point of a loan to buy if the subject loanee isn't going to cut it in the EPL?   The teams already full of those! Our last two players signed in that system failed to step up in the EPL (Gibson and Giannoulis) which is what we signed them to do as did Normann and Kabak last season.     Would much rather we played Sorensen in the middle.    Would much rather we played Giannoulis than Williams also but clearly neither was at the level we needed. 

The flaw in your argument is that developing young players for “two, or three, or five or even ten more in the Championship” is just a gamble, speculation on your part. Just because you’d like it to come true, it doesn’t mean it will. There’s absolutely no guarantee that it would suddenly deliver a team capable of staying up in the PL. On top of which, we would be making less and less money, so getting more and more vulnerable to having those improving youngsters bought up by the wealthy PL clubs. Yes, we could refuse offers, but we’d fairly quickly become the club who wouldn’t let young players move despite excellent offers. 
 

However, I’m not dismissing what you say. I even think we are doing it already. We’re just not putting all our eggs in one basket. Where we have a chance to buy an older, experienced player which will strengthen the side, we will do that too. 

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49 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

My point is that the quality of our current squad is adequate for the Championship but nowhere near good enough for the EPL so in my view I would rather see us consolidate, gamble on a year or two of good development (like we did when we brought Farke in) then having another crack when (and if) we've developed a better squad.  Primarily because I personally would rather spend an extra season or two, or three, or five or even ten more in the Championship than experience that debacle of last season again which in my opinion is where we are headed and no one on here has addressed how on earth we would replace 8-10 players if we do get promoted which is what we would need to do.   My argument isn't flawed its just different to yours.  

Do you honestly believe that the club would even begin to contemplate gambling its future on this sort of speculation? "three, five or even ten more years in the Championship" would see us having to sell off the very same young talent you think we should be nurturing to take us up in the long run. Farke was forced to sell off our best young talent (Maddison) and brought in players like Stiepermann, Vrancic, Trybull, Pukki, McClean, Leitner, Krull, etc.  I.e. mostly seasoned players, not players developed through our youth ranks. Of course there will (hopefully) be a couple or more that step up in the way Aarons and Godfrey did, but the idea we should rely on the bulk of the team being formed in this way would be astonishingly foolhardy.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

The flaw in your argument is that developing young players for “two, or three, or five or even ten more in the Championship” is just a gamble, speculation on your part. Just because you’d like it to come true, it doesn’t mean it will. There’s absolutely no guarantee that it would suddenly deliver a team capable of staying up in the PL. On top of which, we would be making less and less money, so getting more and more vulnerable to having those improving youngsters bought up by the wealthy PL clubs. Yes, we could refuse offers, but we’d fairly quickly become the club who wouldn’t let young players move despite excellent offers. 
 

However, I’m not dismissing what you say. I even think we are doing it already. We’re just not putting all our eggs in one basket. Where we have a chance to buy an older, experienced player which will strengthen the side, we will do that too. 

Of course its a gamble, football is a gamble unless you're in the top 6 now!      But how is that anymore a gamble than what you and others prescribe and why won't any of you answer the questions? 

How do we replace so many players on a promotion as we will need to do?   At least 8, probably more.

How on earth do we develop a team capable in one season?   The gap is huge and this team are so far away from bridging it. 

Will you be happy to experience that last season again?

How will the club prevent that same experience occuring again, with what funds and how do you expect them to replace so many players.....

Are you happy watching McLean toil whilst Sorensen continues to sit on his backside and can't develop?   

What's the point of loans to buy if they aren't actually good enough resulting in us spending £6 and £8m on EFL level players (Gibson and Giannoulis) who couldn't maintain a place in the team and cost us another fortune loaning other players.

Why argue, complain and be so infuriated with our team each week (last few months) then accept the same again which will lead us to more frustration, more descent against the board and ultimately an utter mess and probably loss of good people when they are eventually hounded out.

Sometimes, you have to take stock, reset your goals and go again.   We are still in a better position than when Farke arrived, why can't we do it again but next time do it better learning from all these lessons / mistakes?  

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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5 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Do you honestly believe that the club would even begin to contemplate gambling its future on this sort of speculation? "three, five or even ten more years in the Championship" would see us having to sell off the very same young talent you think we should be nurturing to take us up in the long run. Farke was forced to sell off our best young talent (Maddison) and brought in players like Stiepermann, Vrancic, Trybull, Pukki, McClean, Leitner, Krull, etc.  I.e. mostly seasoned players, not players developed through our youth ranks. Of course there will (hopefully) be a couple or more that step up in the way Aarons and Godfrey did, but the idea we should rely on the bulk of the team being formed in this way would be astonishingly foolhardy.

I said that is what i would prefer in a particular circumstance.    Answer the question, do you want to experience last season again?  If not, how do you propose that is avoided then?   

I have clearly said here that I believe we would be better being patient for a year, possibly two and develop a better team, its all a gamble but you're taking individual sentences in isolation and embellishing your argument.    In my view we have proven ourselves better at developing players than signing them.   Our model is such that in my view staying in the Championship wouldn't put us in financial danger if that happened.   We are a well run, well supported club and would cost accordingly.   I am in favour of development though and think we can move it up the levels to EPL but not in one season, two possibly three and I expect we would be comfortable in the Championship during that time.   Sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate, take that risk.   This is the time simply because there is no way we make this team good enough in one season.  Not a chance. 

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1 minute ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I said that is what i would prefer in a particular circumstance.    Answer the question, do you want to experience last season again?  If not, how do you propose that is avoided then?   

I have clearly said here that I believe we would be better being patient for a year, possibly two and develop a better team, its all a gamble but you're taking individual sentences in isolation and embellishing your argument.    In my view we have proven ourselves better at developing players than signing them.   Our model is such that in my view staying in the Championship wouldn't put us in financial danger if that happened.   We are a well run, well supported club and would cost accordingly.   I am in favour of development though and think we can move it up the levels to EPL but not in one season, two possibly three and I expect we would be comfortable in the Championship during that time.   Sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate, take that risk.   This is the time simply because there is no way we make this team good enough in one season.  Not a chance. 

It was you that said you would be happier nurturing young (unproven) talent over a period of "three, five, ten years". That would involve a massive hit to the club's finances and would inevitably necessitate selling any potential PL quality players that we did  nurture (e.g. Maddison). Even if we were to entertain your fantasy and assume that we could develop a squad from within our own youth ranks that won promotion, what on earth makes you believe that a squad of young players that had never experienced a single game of top flight football would do any any better in the PL than we have the last two times we gained promotion? 

Our self-funding model was very carefully developed and premised on the idea of becoming a "top 26" club. In other words, the club recognised there would likely be a cycle of promotion and relegation with the aim of using PL money to gradually enhance our chances of remaining in the PL. Your claim that " Our model is such that in my view staying in the Championship wouldn't put us in financial danger if that happened." is in complete contradiction to the view of the club, and orthogonal to its fundamental premises.

Until some beneficent billionaire decides to throw a couple of hundred million into our transfer kitty our only option remains the self-funding model. That model absolutely requires harvesting PL money in order to hang on to the best talent we have. Any prolonged spell in the Championship seriously harms that prospect (as so many other clubs have found once relegated; Sunderland, Portsmouth, Bolton, QPR, Stoke etc, etc).

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Of course its a gamble, football is a gamble unless you're in the top 6 now!      But how is that anymore a gamble than what you and others prescribe and why won't any of you answer the questions? 

How do we replace so many players on a promotion as we will need to do?   At least 8, probably more.

How on earth do we develop a team capable in one season?   The gap is huge and this team are so far away from bridging it. 

Will you be happy to experience that last season again?

How will the club prevent that same experience occuring again, with what funds and how do you expect them to replace so many players.....

Are you happy watching McLean toil whilst Sorensen continues to sit on his backside and can't develop?   

What's the point of loans to buy if they aren't actually good enough resulting in us spending £6 and £8m on EFL level players (Gibson and Giannoulis) who couldn't maintain a place in the team and cost us another fortune loaning other players.

Why argue, complain and be so infuriated with our team each week (last few months) then accept the same again which will lead us to more frustration, more descent against the board and ultimately an utter mess and probably loss of good people when they are eventually hounded out.

Sometimes, you have to take stock, reset your goals and go again.   We are still in a better position than when Farke arrived, why can't we do it again but next time do it better learning from all these lessons / mistakes?  

If you want someone to answer a specific question, it’s probably best just to ask that question, maybe explain what you think the answer is and leave that one question to be answered. If you scattergun ten different questions in a post and then more in your next post, you’ll never get them answered. Repeatedly demanding that people “answer the question” when you’ve posed 15 of them isn’t helping debate.

 

Moving on to what seems to be your main question: IMHO, it’s is possible for us to win promotion and then stay up. We’ve seen multiple teams do it, often not for more than two seasons, but it is possible. Yes, most of those teams have spent more than we have. But just as you believe our scouts should do better choosing young players, maybe our scouts should select one or two candidates who are what we need in the short-term for one season, rather than eight or more players who might come good over a year or two. Maybe even using a loan to buy agreement. Then the rest of the team may have enough to deliver 17th place or better with existing players who are (maybe lower) PL quality and some who are only Championship level, but are good enough in a team when playing with better-quality players. Then rinse and repeat next season, buy a couple more. This is obviously speculation, like your preferred option, but there is precedent for it. What you describe hasn’t been done before and as several of us have said, has issues with it.

Edited by Nuff Said
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1 hour ago, horsefly said:

It was you that said you would be happier nurturing young (unproven) talent over a period of "three, five, ten years". That would involve a massive hit to the club's finances and would inevitably necessitate selling any potential PL quality players that we did  nurture (e.g. Maddison). Even if we were to entertain your fantasy and assume that we could develop a squad from within our own youth ranks that won promotion, what on earth makes you believe that a squad of young players that had never experienced a single game of top flight football would do any any better in the PL than we have the last two times we gained promotion? 

Our self-funding model was very carefully developed and premised on the idea of becoming a "top 26" club. In other words, the club recognised there would likely be a cycle of promotion and relegation with the aim of using PL money to gradually enhance our chances of remaining in the PL. Your claim that " Our model is such that in my view staying in the Championship wouldn't put us in financial danger if that happened." is in complete contradiction to the view of the club, and orthogonal to its fundamental premises.

Until some beneficent billionaire decides to throw a couple of hundred million into our transfer kitty our only option remains the self-funding model. That model absolutely requires harvesting PL money in order to hang on to the best talent we have. Any prolonged spell in the Championship seriously harms that prospect (as so many other clubs have found once relegated; Sunderland, Portsmouth, Bolton, QPR, Stoke etc, etc).

This cycle of promotions you refer too!   The fans won't stand another one like this!   How do you propose to change that?   Still no answers!   

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I said that is what i would prefer in a particular circumstance.    Answer the question, do you want to experience last season again?  If not, how do you propose that is avoided then?   

I have clearly said here that I believe we would be better being patient for a year, possibly two and develop a better team, its all a gamble but you're taking individual sentences in isolation and embellishing your argument.    In my view we have proven ourselves better at developing players than signing them.   Our model is such that in my view staying in the Championship wouldn't put us in financial danger if that happened.   We are a well run, well supported club and would cost accordingly.   I am in favour of development though and think we can move it up the levels to EPL but not in one season, two possibly three and I expect we would be comfortable in the Championship during that time.   Sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate, take that risk.   This is the time simply because there is no way we make this team good enough in one season.  Not a chance. 

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you.

Clubs cannot pick and choose when they get promoted. If the chance comes next season, we have to take it. Even if another embarrassing PL campaign lay ahead. It's better for the club to be bottom of the PL in 23/24 than stuck in the middle of the Championship.

The idea that a mediocre season next year would be OK because of a belief that we are slowly building something might be nothing more than a fantasy. What happens if the following season is also mediocre? We'd be a bog-standard Championship club by then, no different from any of the rest (i.e. no parachute payments). 

In my opinion, we have to aim to get back up immediately and then worry about the future after that.

EDIT: Where I think we should aim to do things differently is to make ourselves less dependent on one or two players. In retrospect, selling Emi and losing Skipp meant staying up was an almost impossible task. If the talent had been spread out more evenly, we would probably have been stronger and needed far less activity in the market a year ago. (Again, though, this is largely out of our control. What do you do if you end up with Buendia - tell him not to be so good?)

Edited by canarybubbles

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2 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

This cycle of promotions you refer too!   The fans won't stand another one like this!   How do you propose to change that?   Still no answers!   

How absurd! What on earth can you mean by, "The fans won't stand another one like this"? What do you think the fans are going to do? Burn the ground down? No one wants another season like last season, least of all the current board. However, no club has a God given right to be in the PL. Indeed, no club has a divine right to even exist. Until a beneficent billionaire pops up and chucks £200m into the transfer pot we have to do the best we can with the self-funding model that ensures the club doesn't end up in the parlous state of so many other clubs who assumed their existence was somehow assured. Are you really suggesting that unless we can guarantee a great season in the PL we would be better off languishing in the Championship? I find that utterly bizarre. Perhaps you could explain how your proposal that we build a team from our youth development squads is eventually supposed to produce a team of PL superstars. From where I stand it's far more likely to ensure we follow that lot down the road into league one.

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5 hours ago, cornish sam said:

To ex[ect us to not have any loans is just ridiculous, no teams get promoted without loan players. Over the last 5 years seasons the promoted teams have had an average of 4.6 loan players (according to Transfermarkt), the majority of which weren't made permenant. I love the fact we are trying to do things differently with the self funding, but that is already tying one hand behind our backs compared to rivals, if we did it without loans as well then we woiuld not be able to compete at all...

 

21-22

Fulham 2

Bournemouth 6

Forest 5

 

20-21

Us  - 4

Brentford 2

Watford 2

 

19-20

Fulham 6

Leeds 6

WBA  5

 

18-19

Us 1

Sheff Utd 7

Villa 7

 

17-18

Wolves 6

Cardiff 6

Fulham 6

Extremely underrated post. 

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7 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Extremely underrated post. 

I think it shows we have underused loans if anything…

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5 hours ago, cornish sam said:

To ex[ect us to not have any loans is just ridiculous, no teams get promoted without loan players. Over the last 5 years seasons the promoted teams have had an average of 4.6 loan players (according to Transfermarkt), the majority of which weren't made permenant. I love the fact we are trying to do things differently with the self funding, but that is already tying one hand behind our backs compared to rivals, if we did it without loans as well then we woiuld not be able to compete at all...

 

21-22

Fulham 2

Bournemouth 6

Forest 5

 

20-21

Us  - 4

Brentford 2

Watford 2

 

19-20

Fulham 6

Leeds 6

WBA  5

 

18-19

Us 1

Sheff Utd 7

Villa 7

 

17-18

Wolves 6

Cardiff 6

Fulham 6

Worth noticing that out of that list of teams the only ones to have avoid yo-yoing are the ones who bagged a very wealthy investor. Will be interesting to see if Brentford can avoid second season syndrome this year.

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13 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Worth noticing that out of that list of teams the only ones to have avoid yo-yoing are the ones who bagged a very wealthy investor. Will be interesting to see if Brentford can avoid second season syndrome this year.

Yet also worth noticing that some with a very wealthy investor/benefactor didn't avoid yo-yoing, in fact some of them only managed the yo and leeds have (only just) avoided yo-yoing with a not very wealthy (by football standards) investor...

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36 minutes ago, horsefly said:

How absurd! What on earth can you mean by, "The fans won't stand another one like this"? What do you think the fans are going to do? Burn the ground down? No one wants another season like last season, least of all the current board. However, no club has a God given right to be in the PL. Indeed, no club has a divine right to even exist. Until a beneficent billionaire pops up and chucks £200m into the transfer pot we have to do the best we can with the self-funding model that ensures the club doesn't end up in the parlous state of so many other clubs who assumed their existence was somehow assured. Are you really suggesting that unless we can guarantee a great season in the PL we would be better off languishing in the Championship? I find that utterly bizarre. Perhaps you could explain how your proposal that we build a team from our youth development squads is eventually supposed to produce a team of PL superstars. From where I stand it's far more likely to ensure we follow that lot down the road into league one.

Oh dear, you’ve gone a got yourself right wound up there!    The fact you’re assumptions embellish the points I make demonstrates your lack of understanding of my view.  

Short memory you have, there were plenty of calls for protest a few weeks ago and plenty of fans clearly opposed to this model.    The protest will get louder, that’s a fact!    Why throw in this nonsense about god given rights whatever they are, what point / argument are you trying to make with that?
 

What I am suggesting is that we speculate to accumulate by giving at least this season to allow for development so we can try to assemble something that could compete.  A depth of players with some experience.   In my view that is ‘the best we can do in our circumstances’.  I’m not expecting or suggesting that we will get promoted and thrive, just a preference  that on promotion we can at least compete and ideally have our own identity.   I have no confidence we can do it in the short-term, with loan signings or playing the same old players who’ve failed.   I’m suggesting it’s a mix of an existing group of more capable players, youth and ideally one or two signings we can develop in the Championship, something we can’t do in the EPL due to the standard.  

It’s not just playing kids, we have a number of players already that form the backbone of the team, e.g Krul, Gunn, Hanley, Aaron’s, Byram, Sorensen, Rashica, Idah, Omobamidele, Pukki, Lees-Melou even.    Plus it’s allowing for a couple of additions ideally that can already function at this level but also improve.  We need to fill gaps in skill sets, more pace, power and nous.    
We’ve produced Godfrey, Buendia, Cantwell, Aaron’s, Lewis Omobamidele and Idah in various ways primarily because Farke was brave enough to put them in the team in the Championship.   Most clubs don’t give the opportunity we have and quite often that’s all these lads need.    
 

What’s the difference between my suggestion and where we were when Webber brought Farke in?   We never expected promotion that second season we we’re still developing a team?  Of course, we now have better facilities, better academy players and sounder finances even a number of better players.   We didn’t end up in League 1 then did we.      There you go, you might not agree that’s your view but at least I provide explanations to justify my arguments.   Your response seems unduly hysterical!   

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So the long and the short of it is there are many different opinions expressed in this thread at length. 😁 So briefly here is mine.

The evidence of the last 4 years is that there are enough players in the club of top quality championship standard to expect a good shot at getting top 6 this coming season.

But there is a massive lack of pl standard players amongst them. So the crux of the matter is how to fund and attract pl standard players whilst being in the championship.

I have no idea but I will enjoy watching the yellows this season trying to do a Fulham.

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9 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Oh dear, you’ve gone a got yourself right wound up there!    The fact you’re assumptions embellish the points I make demonstrates your lack of understanding of my view.  

Short memory you have, there were plenty of calls for protest a few weeks ago and plenty of fans clearly opposed to this model.    The protest will get louder, that’s a fact!    Why throw in this nonsense about god given rights whatever they are, what point / argument are you trying to make with that?
 

What I am suggesting is that we speculate to accumulate by giving at least this season to allow for development so we can try to assemble something that could compete.  A depth of players with some experience.   In my view that is ‘the best we can do in our circumstances’.  I’m not expecting or suggesting that we will get promoted and thrive, just a preference  that on promotion we can at least compete and ideally have our own identity.   I have no confidence we can do it in the short-term, with loan signings or playing the same old players who’ve failed.   I’m suggesting it’s a mix of an existing group of more capable players, youth and ideally one or two signings we can develop in the Championship, something we can’t do in the EPL due to the standard.  

It’s not just playing kids, we have a number of players already that form the backbone of the team, e.g Krul, Gunn, Hanley, Aaron’s, Byram, Sorensen, Rashica, Idah, Omobamidele, Pukki, Lees-Melou even.    Plus it’s allowing for a couple of additions ideally that can already function at this level but also improve.  We need to fill gaps in skill sets, more pace, power and nous.    
We’ve produced Godfrey, Buendia, Cantwell, Aaron’s, Lewis Omobamidele and Idah in various ways primarily because Farke was brave enough to put them in the team in the Championship.   Most clubs don’t give the opportunity we have and quite often that’s all these lads need.    
 

What’s the difference between my suggestion and where we were when Webber brought Farke in?   We never expected promotion that second season we we’re still developing a team?  Of course, we now have better facilities, better academy players and sounder finances even a number of better players.   We didn’t end up in League 1 then did we.      There you go, you might not agree that’s your view but at least I provide explanations to justify my arguments.   Your response seems unduly hysterical!   

Repeating the same nonsense doesn't make it any less implausible. Your suggestion that "3, 5, 10 years in the Championship" would do us no harm remains patently ridiculous. Our current model has seen us promoted twice as champions. While we wait for that beneficent billionaire to come along I think I'll stay with the current model that has seen the club get out of debt, secure its future existence, and gain promotion to the PL twice in three years. 

As for your claim "...there were plenty of calls for protest a few weeks ago and plenty of fans clearly opposed to this model.    The protest will get louder, that’s a fact!" Yes I do remember a handful of fans protesting, and I also remember the vast majority of fans ignoring them. Unless you've turned into the fool proof version of Mystic Meg I think you will find your speculation about future protests do not constitute a "fact".

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10 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Oh dear, you’ve gone a got yourself right wound up there!    The fact you’re assumptions embellish the points I make demonstrates your lack of understanding of my view.  

Short memory you have, there were plenty of calls for protest a few weeks ago and plenty of fans clearly opposed to this model.    The protest will get louder, that’s a fact!    Why throw in this nonsense about god given rights whatever they are, what point / argument are you trying to make with that?
 

What I am suggesting is that we speculate to accumulate by giving at least this season to allow for development so we can try to assemble something that could compete.  A depth of players with some experience.   In my view that is ‘the best we can do in our circumstances’.  I’m not expecting or suggesting that we will get promoted and thrive, just a preference  that on promotion we can at least compete and ideally have our own identity.   I have no confidence we can do it in the short-term, with loan signings or playing the same old players who’ve failed.   I’m suggesting it’s a mix of an existing group of more capable players, youth and ideally one or two signings we can develop in the Championship, something we can’t do in the EPL due to the standard.  

It’s not just playing kids, we have a number of players already that form the backbone of the team, e.g Krul, Gunn, Hanley, Aaron’s, Byram, Sorensen, Rashica, Idah, Omobamidele, Pukki, Lees-Melou even.    Plus it’s allowing for a couple of additions ideally that can already function at this level but also improve.  We need to fill gaps in skill sets, more pace, power and nous.    
We’ve produced Godfrey, Buendia, Cantwell, Aaron’s, Lewis Omobamidele and Idah in various ways primarily because Farke was brave enough to put them in the team in the Championship.   Most clubs don’t give the opportunity we have and quite often that’s all these lads need.    
 

What’s the difference between my suggestion and where we were when Webber brought Farke in?   We never expected promotion that second season we we’re still developing a team?  Of course, we now have better facilities, better academy players and sounder finances even a number of better players.   We didn’t end up in League 1 then did we.      There you go, you might not agree that’s your view but at least I provide explanations to justify my arguments.   Your response seems unduly hysterical!   

Problem is, if people do step up to the required quality, we sell them.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Haus said:

Problem is, if people do step up to the required quality, we sell them.  

 

The self funding model will ultimately fail because it relies heavily on selling our best players - and at the moment we hardly have a shinning array of diamonds - to keep going and parachute payments. Once we are in a situation where we have no more EPL money left and Webber's signings continue to be duffers, then we could be League One Fodder unless our youth gets us out of jail. 

This is why having superfluous parochial hobby horse owners that contribute nothing to the club with no outside investment is completely obtuse. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Repeating the same nonsense doesn't make it any less implausible. Your suggestion that "3, 5, 10 years in the Championship" would do us no harm remains patently ridiculous. Our current model has seen us promoted twice as champions. While we wait for that beneficent billionaire to come along I think I'll stay with the current model that has seen the club get out of debt, secure its future existence, and gain promotion to the PL twice in three years. 

As for your claim "...there were plenty of calls for protest a few weeks ago and plenty of fans clearly opposed to this model.    The protest will get louder, that’s a fact!" Yes I do remember a handful of fans protesting, and I also remember the vast majority of fans ignoring them. Unless you've turned into the fool proof version of Mystic Meg I think you will find your speculation about future protests do not constitute a "fact".

Read it again!!!! Where did I say it would do us no harm.... don''t make things up.   I said I'd rather see us competing in the Championship for that long than spend another season in the EPL like the last one.    Exact quote 'Primarily because I personally would rather spend an extra season or two, or three, or five or even ten more in the Championship than experience that debacle of last season again which in my opinion is where we are headed and no one on here has addressed how on earth we would replace 8-10 players if we do get promoted which is what we would need to do.   My argument isn't flawed its just different to yours'.    Note the 'I personally would rather'!

I don't for one minute expect it to happen but unlike you, I could see our club sustaining it if we had too, moreso than others because of this model.    I don't think my preferred direction deviates from the current model any more than yours.   Its still to develop players, a team and grow the club, just with a little more patience and in my opinion more likely to succeed long-term.   Either way is a gamble, mine I think will reap more reward in the long term 2-3 years.   Your route IMO will lead to further disappointments and disconnection between the fans and the club.    But you keep embellishing my comments in your head.  

As for protest, you were on here at the end of the season, fans were fuming, fans at the ground were unhappy.   Most at Webber and the ownership and how is following the same path going to change that if it doesn't go 100% in our favour which in all likelihood it won't?   

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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24 minutes ago, Haus said:

Problem is, if people do step up to the required quality, we sell them.  

 

Agree but have argued before we need to offer them opportunity but be less willing to see them out the door.   In the past we've actively said we will let them go when the times right, well they need to adjust that time, be a tad firmer and expect more loyalty for the opportunity we offer.   Thing is, unless we develop enough of an adequate squad (numbers with experience) to be able to compete in the first place, we will never get to the stage where players won't feel the need to go.  

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Agree but have argued before we need to offer them opportunity but be less willing to see them out the door.   In the past we've actively said we will let them go when the times right, well they need to adjust that time, be a tad firmer and expect more loyalty for the opportunity we offer.   Thing is, unless we develop enough of an adequate squad (numbers with experience) to be able to compete in the first place, we will never get to the stage where players won't feel the need to go.  

But what opportunity do we offer? At best it's a window for potentially bigger and better things, but we've clearly shown that if we go up we have little to no interest in staying there. That in itself makes the club a lot less attractive to players than it should be. 

Edited by komakino

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1 hour ago, komakino said:

But what opportunity do we offer? At best it's a window for potentially bigger and better things, but we've clearly shown that if we go up we have little to no interest in staying there. That in itself makes the club a lot less attractive to players than it should be. 

Well thats just not true is it.   We've clearly shown we can't compete at the moment, we haven't clearly shown we have no interest in staying there as the spend last year suggests.....    We got it wrong, thats a different matter.     But we have shown we give opportunity with the likes of Rowe and Springett the latest to come through.   Suspect we've put more players into our team from the academy than most and generally that philosophy has worked. 

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Just now, ged in the onion bag said:

Well thats just not true is it.   We've clearly shown we can't compete at the moment, we haven't clearly shown we have no interest in staying there as the spend last year suggests.....    We got it wrong, thats a different matter.     But we have shown we give opportunity with the likes of Rowe and Springett the latest to come through.   Suspect we've put more players into our team from the academy than most and generally that philosophy has worked. 

I was generally referring to attracting players to the club. Academy and U23 players can breakthrough, but they will know they will have to eventually leave if successful because their ambitions will be far higher than the clubs, or the club will sell them to keep the doomed self funding position alive for a little while longer.  

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1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Read it again!!!! Where did I say it would do us no harm.... don''t make things up.   I said I'd rather see us competing in the Championship for that long that spend another season in the EPL like the last one.    Exact quote 'Primarily because I personally would rather spend an extra season or two, or three, or five or even ten more in the Championship than experience that debacle of last season again which in my opinion is where we are headed and no one on here has addressed how on earth we would replace 8-10 players if we do get promoted which is what we would need to do.   My argument isn't flawed its just different to yours'.    Note the 'I personally would rather'!

I don't for one minute expect it to happen but unlike you, I could see our club sustaining it if we had too, moreso than others because of this model.    I don't think my preferred direction deviates from the current model any more than yours.   Its still to develop players, a team and grow the club, just with a little more patience and in my opinion more likely to succeed long-term.   Either way is a gamble, mine I think will reap more reward in the long term 2-3 years.   Your route IMO will lead to further disappointments and disconnection between the fans and the club.    But you keep embellishing my comments in your head.  

As for protest, you were on here at the end of the season, fans were fuming, fans at the ground were unhappy.   Most at Webber and the ownership and how is following the same path going to change that if it doesn't go 100% in our favour which in all likelihood it won't?   

What planet are you on? You claim, " I don't think my preferred direction deviates from the current model any more than yours." Your model deviates massively from the current model. The current model develops players through the U-23 side, and ONLY introduces them to the first team on merit alone. Your model is to promote youngsters to the first team and risk languishing in the Champs for a few years in the hope that they will develop significantly and eventually achieve promotion. You say absolutely nothing about why you are confident that such a team would subsequently succeed better in the PL despite the fact that none of them would have had any PL experience. Neither do you entertain the more likely prospect that a team filled with such young raw potential could end up relegated to League One rather than pushing for promotion. Neither do you say anything in response to the point that while we're languishing in the Champs, any player that does develop genuine PL potential would have to be sold off in the manner of Maddison to ensure our financial survival because of the massive loss of PL revenue.

I seriously doubt that you have a  grasp of what fans really want in the way you think you have. Do you really believe that the crowd will be applauding a mid/lower table finish by a team populated with young players not actually good enough to occupy their spot on merit? Or do you think they are more likely to expect a team to be selected that has the best chance to achieve promotion? Thankfully Smith and the Club wouldn't consider your proposal for one second. Hayden was brought in on a loan to buy precisely because Smith et al don't believe there is anyone else in the club who is near his quality. The idea that we really ought not to have brought him in, in order to develop an U-23 player is frankly crazy. We have two years of PL parachute money, to fail to use that money to maximise our chances of promotion would represent a catastrophic failure of strategy.

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1 minute ago, horsefly said:

What planet are you on? You claim, " I don't think my preferred direction deviates from the current model any more than yours." Your model deviates massively from the current model. The current model develops players through the U-23 side, and ONLY introduces them to the first team on merit alone. Your model is to promote youngsters to the first team and risk languishing in the Champs for a few years in the hope that they will develop significantly and eventually achieve promotion. You say absolutely nothing about why you are confident that such a team would subsequently succeed better in the PL despite the fact that none of them would have had any PL experience. Neither do you entertain the more likely prospect that a team filled with such young raw potential could end up relegated to League One rather than pushing for promotion. Neither do you say anything in response to the point that while we're languishing in the Champs, any player that does develop genuine PL potential would have to be sold off in the manner of Maddison to ensure our financial survival because of the massive loss of PL revenue.

I seriously doubt that you have a  grasp of what fans really want in the way you think you have. Do you really believe that the crowd will be applauding a mid/lower table finish by a team populated with young players not actually good enough to occupy their spot on merit? Or do you think they are more likely to expect a team to be selected that has the best chance to achieve promotion? Thankfully Smith and the Club wouldn't consider your proposal for one second. Hayden was brought in on a loan to buy precisely because Smith et al don't believe there is anyone else in the club who is near his quality. The idea that we really ought not to have brought him in, in order to develop an U-23 player is frankly crazy. We have two years of PL parachute money, to fail to use that money to maximise our chances of promotion would represent a catastrophic failure of strategy.

It doesn't deviate from the model and does require that the players are good enough in the first place or that we get some players in that can hit the ground running but have development in them.   Now that's for the scouts to find the right ones.    I'm not and never advocated removing every single first team player or putting ones in that can't cope but you also don't know until they get a chance.  We have Clarke, Gibbs and Sorensen and a chance to bring others in .... new signings and a mix of youth would be given opportunity alongside the likes of Hanley, Omobamidele, Byram, Aarons, Rashica, Lees-Melou, Hayden, Pukki, Idah etc... I would just rather see us replace the ones not so capable, McLean, Dowell, Sargent with something we can develop to have better skill sets like pace, athleticism, anticipation and quality across the team that we can develop into better players than those.   Otherwise as I've asked, how on earth do you turn this squad into a team capable of competing at the EPL level by next season without massive outlay?    Literally no one on this thread has offered the slightest idea as to how that could be done.   

Even the most biased Norwich fan would accept that we have far too many players who aren't capable at the higher level, the gap is too big and growing.   Forget the 'what planet are you on' rubbish, how does your approach bridge that?    

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