To Webber and the recruitment team

[Green Canary 21]

Whilst I realise we will not get it, it would be good to have some explanation of what you were trying to achieve last summer. We do after pay for all this, through ticket purchases, TV subscriptions, merch etc .. So, I just want to know what the strategy was, armed with 30million from Buendia, plus a few bob more from down back of the sofa. What were you hoping for with Sargent? I like him. He genuinely plays for the team. But it seems clear you considered him a striker. Despite the fact that he had hardly scored any goals (deja vu Naismith). So what were you thinking? About the prospect of making a profit on him? And what about Tzolis? What did your team of scouts say about him? It took Farke 5 minutes to determine he wasn't ready. So, again, what were you thinking or hoping for? For a future profit. If you were expecting him to succeed in the Prem straight away, how did your team get misjudge this when it is so clear to Farke and now Smith?

And what was really going on in that scouting team? Why the churn? Was it functioning well or falling apart and panicking? I must be about the 1000th person to pose these questions, so why no answers? 

[hertfordyellow 460]

They made calculated gambles on players that didn’t pay off. This is because in wages terms they have beer money but are drinking in a champagne bar. The fees are red herrings. It’s wages and the relegation clauses that meant we were fishing in difficult waters.

8 million on a 21 year old Player with top German experience isn’t much. Top championship players that age are subject to 20 million bids now.

Not sure we need to hound the recruitment team. Everton on the other hand need to ask a lot of questions 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,753]

The £10m spent on Tzolis is the most reprehensible piece of business this club has ever conducted...when it needed ready made players last summer

That is a sackable offence in itself

[Badger 2,405]

Recruitment is an inherently risky process in football - look at Lukaku at Chelsea etc etc - there is an endless list of expensive plops and many more that are just so-so. All clubs waste money and all clubs get some incredibly good deals. 

The trick is to minimise the latter and when they occur make them less expensive + to maximise the latter. But most important of all is the need to "grow your own."

Looking at the likely developments in football our future is likely to be determined by the quality of player we produce rather than the quality of player we buy!

[WD40 720]

I too would like him to front up to the media, but tbh I don’t if I’d believe a word of it anyway…you can’t in all good conscience play the ‘we’ll learn from this’ as he’s used that lifeline.

[Midlands Yellow 3,984]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

Recruitment is an inherently risky process in football - look at Lukaku at Chelsea etc etc - there is an endless list of expensive plops and many more that are just so-so. All clubs waste money and all clubs get some incredibly good deals. 

The trick is to minimise the latter and when they occur make them less expensive + to maximise the latter. But most important of all is the need to "grow your own."

Looking at the likely developments in football our future is likely to be determined by the quality of player we produce rather than the quality of player we buy!

In essence, do what we have always done then. 

[Badger 2,405]

6 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

when it needed ready made players last summer

Like the Watford approach you mean? Big money contracts to "has-beens" and "nearly-beens" looking fo rone last big contract - Danny Rose, Josh King and Moussa Sissoko.

Have a look at what the Watford fans think about their recruitment!

[hertfordyellow 460]

12 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

The £10m spent on Tzolis is the most reprehensible piece of business this club has ever conducted...when it needed ready made players last summer

That is a sackable offence in itself

Regular reminder that Tzolis was the same age as Maddison when we bought him. We deemed Maddison not good enough yet for the CHAMPIONSHIP and sent him on loan. It is far too early to write him off. If he has a good season next year then he’ll be well worth the fee. Have you seen the fee’s young players in the championship are getting linked with this summer?

[Badger 2,405]

3 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

In essence, do what we have always done then. 

New FFP rules are likely to make it even more important than ever. We will still have more financial muscle than most clubs outside the Premier League but buying established players will be even more risky than it is now because of their impact on wages.

It is likely that moving forwards more clubs will try to emulate what has been our (and other clubs) traditional approach rather than the roll the dice strategy which was tried so frequently despite such a high failure rate.

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,891]

3 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

In essence, do what we have always done then. 

Ha! I was thinking the same thing! The more things change, the more things stay the same.

OTBC

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

New FFP rules are likely to make it even more important than ever. We will still have more financial muscle than most clubs outside the Premier League but buying established players will be even more risky than it is now because of their impact on wages.

It is likely that moving forwards more clubs will try to emulate what has been our (and other clubs) traditional approach rather than the roll the dice strategy which was tried so frequently despite such a high failure rate.

Good thing Webber had the foresight to invest the premiership money in creating a top academy facility. Actually nah let’s demand an apology because a 19 year old who has never left home before hasn’t instantly played like Ronaldo.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,415]

1 hour ago, Green Canary said:

Whilst I realise we will not get it, it would be good to have some explanation of what you were trying to achieve last summer. We do after pay for all this, through ticket purchases, TV subscriptions, merch etc .. So, I just want to know what the strategy was, armed with 30million from Buendia, plus a few bob more from down back of the sofa. What were you hoping for with Sargent? I like him. He genuinely plays for the team. But it seems clear you considered him a striker. Despite the fact that he had hardly scored any goals (deja vu Naismith). So what were you thinking? About the prospect of making a profit on him? And what about Tzolis? What did your team of scouts say about him? It took Farke 5 minutes to determine he wasn't ready. So, again, what were you thinking or hoping for? For a future profit. If you were expecting him to succeed in the Prem straight away, how did your team get misjudge this when it is so clear to Farke and now Smith?

And what was really going on in that scouting team? Why the churn? Was it functioning well or falling apart and panicking? I must be about the 1000th person to pose these questions, so why no answers? 

I don't think it's difficult to Google the address for Carrow Road.

[Monty13 2,234]

45 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

They made calculated gambles on players that didn’t pay off. This is because in wages terms they have beer money but are drinking in a champagne bar. The fees are red herrings. It’s wages and the relegation clauses that meant we were fishing in difficult waters.

8 million on a 21 year old Player with top German experience isn’t much. Top championship players that age are subject to 20 million bids now.

Not sure we need to hound the recruitment team. Everton on the other hand need to ask a lot of questions 

Pretty sure our wage budget is similar to teams around us in the PL. We aren’t paying wages of the top teams but we are paying comparable to the bottom 5-6.

The main issue I agree is that we are odds on for relegation and that is not attractive to a lot of players.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

We were told that we spent the 11th most in Europe on players and it's been a disaster. Our recruitment has been shocking for the last couple of years. Yet we seem to be the only club that has zero accountability on these failures.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,753]

4 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

Regular reminder that Tzolis was the same age as Maddison when we bought him. We deemed Maddison not good enough yet for the CHAMPIONSHIP and sent him on loan. It is far too early to write him off. If he has a good season next year then he’ll be well worth the fee. Have you seen the fee’s young players in the championship are getting linked with this summer?

Taking a £10m punt on a youngster is the kind of thing man city or chelsea can afford to do

...not a club for whom it accounts for roughly a sixth of its overall transfer budget and where there were obvious gaps an weaknesses in the first team

Edited April 10, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Worthy Nigelton 1,047]

2 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

They made calculated gambles on players that didn’t pay off. This is because in wages terms they have beer money but are drinking in a champagne bar. The fees are red herrings. It’s wages and the relegation clauses that meant we were fishing in difficult waters.

8 million on a 21 year old Player with top German experience isn’t much. Top championship players that age are subject to 20 million bids now.

Not sure we need to hound the recruitment team. Everton on the other hand need to ask a lot of questions 

Very true. They did an excellent job this summer. Said nobody.

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

Pretty sure our wage budget is similar to teams around us in the PL. We aren’t paying wages of the top teams but we are paying comparable to the bottom 5-6.

The main issue I agree is that we are odds on for relegation and that is not attractive to a lot of players.

It’s also our wage structure. Watford have players on 60k which we won’t pay. I’m sure I saw we were similar to Brentford and Burnley but Watford were a bit above us and then there was a big jump. We are also competing with other European clubs for the type of signings we want to make at this level.

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Taking a £10m put on a youngster is the kind of thing man city or chelsea can afford to do

...not a club for whom it accounts for roughly a sixth of its overall transfer budget and where there were obvious gaps an weaknesses in the first team

We can’t afford ready made players. Certainly not for similar wages and price, that’s the point. Ready made Premiership players want 70k and are 20+ million

[chicken 2,624]

3 hours ago, Green Canary said:

Whilst I realise we will not get it,

Why?

We got it last time. It was after the end of the season when it is right to reflect upon it. Anyone demanding explanation now is foolish. You don't do it during the season when the players are still training and preparing for their next game. You certainly don't do it whilst there is a mathematical chance of staying up.

Why? Because only an absolute idiot would. You have loan players you'd be including in that whilst they are still on loan. I'm sure parent clubs will love that. You have players that you will be in contract talks with, I'm sure that would really help those talks.

Webber has always been relatively honest and I am sure he will be in reflection again this summer.

[chicken 2,624]

13 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

We can’t afford ready made players. Certainly not for similar wages and price, that’s the point. Ready made Premiership players want 70k and are 20+ million

This. Armstrong was £15-20m and he only had one real season of Championship prominence behind him.

Toney, though looking good for the overall price, was £5m rising to £10m upon promotion. There was no guarantee at that point he'd step up to the premier league. Similar to Gibson and how many last season felt we had a solid PL CB on our hands.
 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

30 minutes ago, chicken said:

Toney, though looking good for the overall price, was £5m rising to £10m upon promotion. There was no guarantee at that point he'd step up to the premier league. Similar to Gibson and how many last season felt we had a solid PL CB on our hands.
 

And Toney was from League One. The fact League One players cost that much nowadays shows how hard it is to find value in England.

[Monty13 2,234]

54 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

It’s also our wage structure. Watford have players on 60k which we won’t pay. I’m sure I saw we were similar to Brentford and Burnley but Watford were a bit above us and then there was a big jump. We are also competing with other European clubs for the type of signings we want to make at this level.

That’s a choice though, we have a bloated squad on lower wages we could choose to have fewer players on more 

[chicken 2,624]

42 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

That’s a choice though, we have a bloated squad on lower wages we could choose to have fewer players on more 

We don't have that much of a bloated squad. Your argument also means fewer eggs in a smaller basket, which has inherent risks in it's own right. 

[Monty13 2,234]

22 minutes ago, chicken said:

We don't have that much of a bloated squad. Your argument also means fewer eggs in a smaller basket, which has inherent risks in it's own right. 

We have a number of former first trainers on loan to other teams that we are paying part of if not the lions share of the wages. Plus a decent sized squad still at the club, IMO it’s bloated compared to what it needs to be, especially when finances are so tight.

[chicken 2,624]

10 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

We have a number of former first trainers on loan to other teams that we are paying part of if not the lions share of the wages. Plus a decent sized squad still at the club, IMO it’s bloated compared to what it needs to be, especially when finances are so tight.

Hugill, Hernandez, Drmic and Cantwell are the main first teamers out on loan. Sinani is the other older player out on loan at just turned 25.

Then it's mainly youngsters like Martin, Soto, Mumba, McCallum, Famewo and Bushiri.

It's more bloated than we're used to. I think I counted 26 players in our first team squad but that includes Rowe and a fair number of 21 and under players.

Hopefully we can trim a bit in the summer. Some players already have fees agreed for them like Sinani and Famewo. Drmic's contract will be up. Hugill will have a season left and Cantwell has an option we don't have to exercise if the club feels better off rid. That said, there is also an £11m fee agreed for him so if Bournemouth go up we could yet get a fee for him.

If we are relegated McCallum likely comes in to be part of the squad as does Mumba. Martin and Soto the jury is still out on.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

And Toney was from League One. The fact League One players cost that much nowadays shows how hard it is to find value in England.

At the risk of repeating myself, the 2021 summer transfer window was the first such to be constrained by Brexit, and of all the clubs in the top two divisions Norwich City, given its financial model, must be among those that have been potentially worst hit by the new restrictions.

I don't know whom we might have looked at but could not as a result sign. However since apparently we could not now have signed either Pukki or Buendia it is a fair guess there were some promising players from abroad who would not have cost a massive transfer fee and who would accepted our wage structure, but were off limits.

[Monty13 2,234]

3 hours ago, chicken said:

Hugill, Hernandez, Drmic and Cantwell are the main first teamers out on loan. Sinani is the other older player out on loan at just turned 25.

Then it's mainly youngsters like Martin, Soto, Mumba, McCallum, Famewo and Bushiri.

It's more bloated than we're used to. I think I counted 26 players in our first team squad but that includes Rowe and a fair number of 21 and under players.

Hopefully we can trim a bit in the summer. Some players already have fees agreed for them like Sinani and Famewo. Drmic's contract will be up. Hugill will have a season left and Cantwell has an option we don't have to exercise if the club feels better off rid. That said, there is also an £11m fee agreed for him so if Bournemouth go up we could yet get a fee for him.

If we are relegated McCallum likely comes in to be part of the squad as does Mumba. Martin and Soto the jury is still out on.

 

My hope is we don’t make the same mistakes and when relegated we either get fees for players or play them.

I don’t see a single senior player we have that wouldn’t contribute in the Championship personally so I’d really like to avoid the Drmic, Klose, Hugill, Trybull, Cantwell, Leitner etc etc. situations where we have perfectly capable players that we haven’t upgraded on and are still paying significant sums for.

If we really have someone deemed completely surplus or too detrimental to keep around and no one will buy, fine I get it, loan them out and get something back. But we seem to discard far too many players and therefore spread our money for new signings too thin IMO. 

Evolution not revolution each window IMO.

[hertfordyellow 460]

6 hours ago, Monty13 said:

That’s a choice though, we have a bloated squad on lower wages we could choose to have fewer players on more 

I’m not sure it’s that bloated, loan players are generally having wages paid for them. Especially with Covid, we’ve at times had to fill the bench with u23s.

I get the general point about wage allocation. I do think it’s counterproductive to have a few players on much bigger wages. It would hit moral, especially if they weren’t playing too well.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

I posted this on another thread but I think it pretty much covers everything...

 

DF: 'Wont I need that guy who created most of Pukki's goals and provided all the creativity in the team?'

SW: 'No, you'll have Billy Gilmour!'

DF: 'OK so what will you be doing with the £30-odd million you got for him?'

SW: 'I told you! We've bought you an American striker who doesnt score and has experience of a relegation battle (well, losing one), his Kosovan team-mate, who, before he lost form lots of other teams were looking at, remember how we stole RvW from under the noses of the big boys, well we've pulled off another coup, just like we have with this Greek lad we've got. £10m each, bargain! Tzolis might not be ready to y'know, actually help you this season, but Im sure one of your successors will be grateful I blew a fifth of our transfer outlay on him. Eventually... And dont forget our new substitute keeper! He's ready to make an instant impact on the pitch. Should he ever get on it.'

DF: 'OK, so thats Buendia's fee taken care of. What about the money we get for being in the Premier League? Wont I need the defensive midfielder I've been asking for?'

SW: 'Are you mad? You have Kenny McLean! I've also got you some French bloke who used to play for Dijon'

DF: 'The mustard place?'

SW: 'Yeah, he'll fit right in'

DF: 'Werent there doubts about his physique at one point in his career?'

SW: 'Dont worry, I've got you this Norweigan bloke, he's injured, but I've seen his picture on Instgram - he looks ripped!'

DF: 'OK, what about defence then?'

SW: 'Well, along with finalising the £6m signing of your Greek left back,  and £8m signing of a championship defender Burnely saw as not good enough to play for them in the PL, I've loaned you some players to replace them - a kid from Man Utd, who's actually right footed, and this unfit Turkish chap from another relegated Bundesliga side who played a bit for Liverpool last season'.

DF: 'And Liverpool thought he was good enough right?'

SW: 'No, but like all our other signings he has one shining attribute'

DF: 'And what's that?'

SW: 'He's young, so we might be able to sell him for money at some point in the future. And that's what this club is all about, not effective players now, but building for the future! Im sure you understand that.'

DF: 'And am I part of this future?'

SW: 'Oh yes Daniel, here's a 4 year contract'

DF: 'What's this in the small print about a fixed £1m compensation fee?'

SW: 'Oh dont worry about that, its just lawyer speak, its not like we're going to sack you a quarter of the way into the season, that would be a shoddy way to treat a manager who's won us the league twice, finally made the academy blossom and brought the most entertaining style of football we've ever seen to the club and whom is loved by the fans. Trust me.'

[hertfordyellow 460]

4 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

At the risk of repeating myself, the 2021 summer transfer window was the first such to be constrained by Brexit, and of all the clubs in the top two divisions Norwich City, given its financial model, must be among those that have been potentially worst hit by the new restrictions.

I don't know whom we might have looked at but could not as a result sign. However since apparently we could not now have signed either Pukki or Buendia it is a fair guess there were some promising players from abroad who would not have cost a massive transfer fee and who would accepted our wage structure, but were off limits.

A reminder the restrictions post Brexit were proposed by the FA, EFL and EPL jointly to the government. It wasn’t imposed on them. Personally think the rules are too strict but I get the intent to promote less cheap punts on smaller leagues and more player development.