Todd going or staying?

[Alex Moss 2,165]

6 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Far too many fans on here seem to let these facts get in the way of their misinformed points!     

 

See above, chances created '83' 4th best in the league ......  goal involvements (both 8)!     You simply can't get much more 'end product' than that in a team so woefully relegated.      Emi and Todd weren't the reasons we struggled last time.     How anyone can argue Todd is better or worse than Emi based on what happened two seasons ago when they were both new to the league and played in a struggling side is difficult to fathom.   They both did an exceptional job in the circumstances.

 

Calm down, Ged. We’ve already established Todd’s better 👍

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

Todd matured considerably in his game last year. He is getting better, stronger, more important.

it was a revelatory moment when Warnock went man-to-man on him (not Emi). He was right too. 

Todd now gives the ball away very little. He moves into the right defensive spaces on turnover. He reads the game very well. 

He also strikes the ball very cleanly off both sides. That is much rarer than you would imagine. Many players don’t strike the ball cleanly off any foot. 

Todd has an awareness level that is greater than most. He has fine technical ability, he is fluid and very cohesive. What he does translates to any level. 

Many players can dominate at a level. Very few have the game that transcends levels. i like the Griezmann comparison, there are similarities. That is what Todd can aspire to. 

Parma 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

How is saying that I think Emi is on a different level and that Cantwell won't win  an England cap being "anti-Todd".

James Maddison can't get a game, and Lingaard missed out on the squad after tearing it up at West Ham, England are blessed with too much talent. 

I've literally said that I think Cantwell is worth £20m to £25m, and is Premier League quality, that is praise is it not?

The home grown thing is only really a major concern to clubs in European competition. Of those he is clearly not good enough for the Champions League qualifiers...

.... and Leicester don't really need him, they''ve got Barnes, Perez and Teilemens so don't have to replace Maddison if they sell him, and have no issues with homegrown player numbers.

Perhaps Leicester is a possible suitor, but at your £35m he would be their second biggest ever transfer. Is that really realistic? Considering the highest paid at £40m was a 21 year old Belgian International with almost 30 caps at the time, who had played in the World Cup where he finished 3rd, and was playing Champions League football with Monaco?

You really think Leicester will push that record for a player who frankly has struggled to get in the England U21 team even as an overaged player? 

I'm not being "anti" Cantwell by being realistic about his likely ceiling and his status in the game. He's worth about £20m. 

I hope he just pens a new deal, but we shove in a low relegation release clause, tell him if he signs a 4 year deal we'll let him go for £15m if we go down this season. That feels fair to me. 

I never mentioned £35m and at the moment wouldn't sell at all, not even for that..... my point being it would mean far too much disruption to the team we can put out. .....    No idea where this Leicester reference has come from, didn't even know that might be interested, assume they aren't.        I do believe now that Emi has moved on Todd could find another level though and that would raise his value, perhaps even to £35m, you never know!  

I understood the homegrown is relevant because each 25-man squad must have so many!    

[ged in the onion bag 855]

19 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

Certainly had more end product in the Premier League that season, that we know is a fact.

15 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

But when I say ‘end product’, then I mean exactly that - goals, and not assists.

Alex, end-product is what happens when the ball leaves a player, does it do what was intended / reach its target for example.   Doesn't have to be a goal or assist.    In the case of a winger for example, his end product is quite often the quality of crosses.   If you mean one thing incorrectly and everyone else reads the words and interprets it as written, you are likely to get a response questioning what you're talking about as in this case..... of course Emi's end product was better than anyone else's, both in the EPL and the Championship last season.  Hoping Todd's is exceptional this season.       

[Canaries north 151]

On 28/07/2021 at 14:39, Dr Greenthumb said:

There are players in the league below being valued higher than that who haven’t done anything in the prem 🤣

But who have longer contracts and I'm sorry but every time I have seen him play without Buendia he looked very average in my opinion. If you are saying Cantwell should be more than £20 million what would you say was the correct price for Buendia as it sure wouldn't be £30 million. 

[Jersey Canary 143]

Why would Villa pay £35m for Cantwell when they could get Lingard for a similar amount? 

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

2 hours ago, Canaries north said:

But who have longer contracts and I'm sorry but every time I have seen him play without Buendia he looked very average in my opinion. If you are saying Cantwell should be more than £20 million what would you say was the correct price for Buendia as it sure wouldn't be £30 million. 

I didn’t compare him to Buendia, I am Looking more at the £25m Armstrong’s of the world!

[daly 501]

Can’t believe the BOD are even considering selling Todd we sold Maddison for half what he is worth now

 

[Indy 3,300]

I’ve been on teams with my Manchester City season ticket holder today, he said that City have agreed to match Villas £100 million price and by Monday he expected Grealish to be a city player. So if Villa really have interest in Todd next week we should find out!

[Jersey Canary 143]

On 28/07/2021 at 16:24, ZLF said:

Todd is worth more than £20m for us.

 

As for the pointless Emi v Todd output debate - yes todd score 6 goals to Buendias one in the prem last time, yet only created 2 goals to Emis 7;   8 direct goal involvements each with both players on the pitch for c2500 mins each and taking shots at the same rate per game & near identical pass success rates of c80%.    Very similar in "output" performance so should also be for value, other than Emi signed the contracts to ensure we get a decent a price,  while Todds contract committment hasnt been so clear,  even if the departure was as likely.

 

The two areas of output performance difference was was in chances created  - 83 ( for Emi (4th best in the prem that season) compared to todds 35 (49th) - and the ability to dribble past the opponent, where Emi completed 102 (4th best) compared to Todds 49 (36th). 

 

We have been lucky to have both of these players in our side at the same time.

 

Whoscored is a treasure trove

How many goals conceded were each directly responsible for? Cantwell’s count would be far higher. That would make Cantwell’s stats far worse. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

The only important fact with Todd is that his contract expires in one year and obviously at that point he walks out of the door for nothing. If we can get £25m for him in those circumstances then we should probably take it, providing of course that a replacement can be found. That's easier said than done. Some of the posters on this forum don't seem to rate him but surely everyone has to accept that if we signed a player of his talent we'd all be very happy. 

If we do sell him without a like for like replacement then relegation beckons but I suppose it probably does anyway. 

Todd and his agent are obviously playing a dangerous game in running down his contract. Anything could happen to him in the next few months and he must have lost a considerable amount of money already by refusing to sign a new contract. 

The thing that makes me think we'll sell him is that although the management of the club are clearly impressed by his talent but seem less than enamoured with his attitude. Webber has made scathing comments about him in the past. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by dylanisabaddog

[Pugin 601]

Todd was distracted by Bayern Munich interest a year ago. He admits it and has learned from it. He is fully committed to becoming the best player he an for NCFC. Daniel loves him and loves his attitude. He has been brilliant in pre-season particularly against Huddersfield. He is no fool, and definitely in control of his agent. So just leave him alone to develop into the player he will become. He is in a good place.

[Fuzzar 1,702]

28 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The only important fact with Todd is that his contract expires in one year and obviously at that point he walks out of the door for nothing. If we can get £25m for him in those circumstances then we should probably take it, providing of course that a replacement can be found. That's easier said than done. Some of the posters on this forum don't seem to rate him but surely everyone has to accept that if we signed a player of his talent we'd all be very happy. 

If we do sell him without a like for like replacement then relegation beckons but I suppose it probably does anyway. 

Todd and his agent are obviously playing a dangerous game in running down his contract. Anything could happen to him in the next few months and he must have lost a considerable amount of money already by refusing to sign a new contract. 

The thing that makes me think we'll sell him is that although the management of the club are clearly impressed by his talent but seem less than enamoured with his attitude. Webber has made scathing comments about him in the past. 

Dylan, we have a year's option on his contract. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

On 29/07/2021 at 09:49, ged in the onion bag said:

Alex, end-product is what happens when the ball leaves a player, does it do what was intended / reach its target for example.   Doesn't have to be a goal or assist.    In the case of a winger for example, his end product is quite often the quality of crosses.   If you mean one thing incorrectly and everyone else reads the words and interprets it as written, you are likely to get a response questioning what you're talking about as in this case..... of course Emi's end product was better than anyone else's, both in the EPL and the Championship last season.  Hoping Todd's is exceptional this season.       

I made it 100% clear what I personally defined as ‘end product’ in exactly what you quoted. Where is the confusion????. Whether my definition is technically correct or not doesn’t matter, I couldn’t actually have made it any clearer what I meant - you even quoted me explaining so! So no one will be interpreting it differently - not unless they’re a massive bell piece of course looking for an argument.

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 hour ago, Pugin said:

Todd was distracted by Bayern Munich interest a year ago. He admits it and has learned from it. He is fully committed to becoming the best player he an for NCFC. Daniel loves him and loves his attitude. He has been brilliant in pre-season particularly against Huddersfield. He is no fool, and definitely in control of his agent. So just leave him alone to develop into the player he will become. He is in a good place.

This sounds about right.  The player we had last season was way more mature and in control of what he was doing than the previous seasons and it is to his credit that he has responded to criticisms and produced effective football for almost the whole season.

For what it's worth, my impression now is that he would be ok either staying or moving on. In other words, he has learned form last time and all the speculation and that he knows the score - if a bid comes in that is high enough he will be allowed to move, if a bid comes in that is too low, he will stay - and that he can be happy with either outcome.

There is no sense in getting ahead of yourself as a player and as much as speculation might be exciting to think about, it is only a distraction if you let it get to you - a distraction that can spoil your performances in the here and now. A player has two choices, they either accept things as they are and enjoy it without worrying whether they are staying or going, or go into that mode we've seen players in before - that sub-consciously go into that mood where they appear to have downed tools because they want to be elsewhere.

Todd seems to be in a great place - at a club that he loves and that is offering PL football under a great coaching team - and the possibility of career progression if and when it comes along. No pressure, no worries, just to get on and enjoy his football.

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

Villa have apparently agreed a deal for Leon Bailey. Between Bailey and Buendia, hopefully those are the two big signings to replace Grealish.

[Canaries north 151]

20 hours ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

I didn’t compare him to Buendia, I am Looking more at the £25m Armstrong’s of the world!

Armstrong is a forward and they tend to cost more than midfielders. Not sure why but they do. Blackburn have to pay a huge sell on clause to Newcastle, I believe it 40 to 50 percent 😂 and he has a long contract. But the most important point is they have said it would take £25 million. Well I want £2 million for my house but no one is ever going to pay that sadly. Personally on Armstrong I don't rate him. They have turned down £15 million from Watford and I feel Watford have dodged a bullet. I stand by my point I would sell Cantwell for £20 million if offered. Yes I would want more but I do not see Cantwell as anything more than an average premiership player.  I know this might upset some people but that is my opinion. We will see if the scouts at other premier League clubs agree and offer more but I can't see it. In my opinion and that's all it is Buendia was worth so much more than Cantwell. I'm sure most fans would have rather kept him than Cantwell. 

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

1 minute ago, Canaries north said:

Armstrong is a forward and they tend to cost more than midfielders. Not sure why but they do. Blackburn have to pay a huge sell on clause to Newcastle, I believe it 40 to 50 percent 😂 and he has a long contract. But the most important point is they have said it would take £25 million. Well I want £2 million for my house but no one is ever going to pay that sadly. Personally on Armstrong I don't rate him. They have turned down £15 million from Watford and I feel Watford have dodged a bullet. I stand by my point I would sell Cantwell for £20 million if offered. Yes I would want more but I do not see Cantwell as anything more than an average premiership player.  I know this might upset some people but that is my opinion. We will see if the scouts at other premier League clubs agree and offer more but I can't see it. In my opinion and that's all it is Buendia was worth so much more than Cantwell. I'm sure most fans would have rather kept him than Cantwell. 

Sissoko is an average premiership Player and he went for £35m. Buendia wasn’t a forward either and he has fetched a good amount (not enough IMO). Arsenal are asking for £20m for fringe players who have done nothing in the prem. We should be looking at £25m + for one of our excellent home grown players.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

20 hours ago, Fuzzar said:

Dylan, we have a year's option on his contract. 

Thanks, I wondered why the figures being bandied about were so high! 

[Basel_NCFC 7]

On 28/07/2021 at 14:51, Terminally Yellow said:

Considering we have a few players that can only aspire to be premier league players, you'd have thought we should be doing what we can to keep the premier league quality players we actually do have?

But if his agent is pushing him towards the exit, what can you do?