Next

[Virtual reality 716]

Just now, Cantiaci Canary said:

No club has been using this, highly successful and widely lauded, experiment before.

It isn’t highly successful at this level. It’s only been highly successful at championship level. At some point their has to be an attempt to kick on and progress at this level otherwise their is no point in us being here other than to pick up the money every few years 

[Indy_Bones 441]

Just now, Virtual reality said:

And yet before this sale no club upon promotion has ever sold such an influential player to their team before. 

And that's relevant to your previous question how?

You asked if they'd sell for the same deal, and I replied they would if Toney wanted a move.

Now it's morphed into a completely different statement.

But to answer that one, who cares? Emi was leaving one way or another, it's foolish to think he wasn't, so the question isn't about WHY the sale has happened or how influential he was, but a necessary acceptance of the situation, because in truth, how many clubs have been promoted with a player like Emi on their hands following a global pandemic and the player wanting to leave - answers on a postcard...

[Virtual reality 716]

1 minute ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

Those clubs are in different circumstances to us. Each club is unique.

It’s Brentford....

[horsefly 4,310]

1 minute ago, Virtual reality said:

So if we were to take the exact terms of this sale and then offer it to Brentford for Toney do you think it would be accepted? 

If I was them I'd snap our hands off. He had one very good season in the Champs but there is absolutely no guarantee that he will repeat that in the PL. He missed an awful lot of chances on his way to his total and he will get nothing like that number of chances in the PL (Pukki shots per goal 2.67, Toney shots per goal 3.31https://www.fctables.com/players/ivan_toney-251396/#:~:text=Ivan Toney shots an average of 0.63 goals,goal. Passes completed Ivan Toney is 68 percent.). I'd be amazed if anyone risked bidding that sort of money for Toney, but then football is a funny old game.

[Cantiaci Canary 558]

1 minute ago, Virtual reality said:

It isn’t highly successful at this level. It’s only been highly successful at championship level. At some point their has to be an attempt to kick on and progress at this level otherwise their is no point in us being here other than to pick up the money every few years 

You are judging the training methods of a marathon runner based purely on their first stride off the starting line. If you don't everything in the long term them you'll never understand the logic behind each of Webber's decisions.

[AJ 1,224]

Cantwell will be a little more loyal then Emi I'm sure, we are his local club. Hopefully he's just getting a nicer, bigger house thanks to his new well deserved contract that hasn't been announced yet...

[Virtual reality 716]

4 minutes ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

You are judging the training methods of a marathon runner based purely on their first stride off the starting line. If you don't everything in the long term them you'll never understand the logic behind each of Webber's decisions.

It isn’t a marathon it’s a sprint.  This is the mistake our fans make every time when they buy into a new model or five year plan. This model only exists whilst Webber and Farke are here, beyond that we have no idea if their replacements will be able to make a success of it. But I can guarantee their replacements will have more chance if we had secured PL survival rather than yet another relegation.

I see absolutely no reason why either will stay beyond this season if we are relegated again. It’s just Groundhog Day then 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Virtual reality

[Cantiaci Canary 558]

3 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

7 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

It’s Brentford....

 

Who have only just got promoted. If they go down I wouldn't be surprised to see Toney being sold (look at what they did with Benhrama and Watkins) whereas we held on to Emi.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,294]

1 minute ago, AJ said:

Cantwell will be a little more loyal then Emi I'm sure, we are his local club. Hopefully he's just getting a nicer, bigger house thanks to his new well deserved contract that hasn't been announced yet...

Seemed to me from the outside looking in, Emi appeared more 'loyal' (whatever that's actually supposed to mean) last summer than Cantwell. He got his head down, worked hard, and was integrated back into the side well before Cantwell. 

I suspect Cantwell is valued around £15-20 million in the current market. The only way Cantwell doesn't leave if that sort of money is offered, is if it's from a Brentford or Watford,  possibly one or two others. If Palace, Wolves, Leeds, etc, call - Cantwell leaves. And actually, for £20 million, I think we can replace Cantwell with better for less money with shrewd scouting, which we demonstrate consistently. 

[Virtual reality 716]

2 minutes ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

Who have only just got promoted. If they go down I wouldn't be surprised to see Toney being sold (look at what they did with Benhrama and Watkins) whereas we held on to Emi.

Neither would I be surprised to see them sell him if they go down. That’s the point, they won’t sell him before a ball is kicked

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 hours ago, City fan said:

Watch this space, Cantwell is the next one leaving. His house is up for sale FACT. 

Well what choice does the club have there?

Its sign a contract or do one with him.

[chicken 2,640]

48 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

Fact: no promoted team has ever cashed in on their main player. Fact: Toney and Sarr will both be playing for Watford and Brentford next season irrelevant of if a £35 million bid comes in

This would be absolutely wonderful if it wasn't that it ignores several massive omissions.

Firstly, this is not our first promotion with Buendia, Cantwell or Aarons - at least two of them were being watched when we were promoted last time out.

Most people would say you are much more likely to sell players upon relegation, and whilst we did sell Lewis and Godfrey, we also managed to hang on to other players as well.

A lot of emphasis is put on Buendia but one player a team doth not make.

Let's remember it is Farke that made Buendia, and there is absolutely no question of that. Buendia was raw when he arrived, he was impetuous, his game often featured a lot of wasted energy spent on histrionics. He would take on five players and throw himself to the floor as if fouled when he inevitably didn't dribble it past the 2nd. He'd try the fancy in our own third and lose the ball, leading to goals conceded. He lacked discipline.

Last season he improved on most of these and he tracked back more and there was less turf slapping and negative comments towards other players and gesticulating at the ref.

Honestly, the jury is out on whether Toney can do it in the prem, but arguably isn't their "star player" and the problem with Sarr is they paid £30mil for him - Watford wouldn't sell him on without a profit on that and arguably, he isn't the chance creator that Buendia is. So much like Pepe at Arsenal, you probably have an example of two players that teams have paid over the odds for.

I think if you are going to compare Toney to anyone it needs to be Pukki because they are the goalscorers. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

11 minutes ago, AJ said:

Cantwell will be a little more loyal then Emi I'm sure, we are his local club. 

Nah, he's wanted out for ages, why do you think he hasn't signed a new deal. 

Watch as Arsenal sign him as their 5th choice.

[Gordon Bennett 789]

Toney has had one good season whereas Emi has arguably  had three. 

[Virtual reality 716]

The acceptance of mediocrity at this level and the feeling of awe at just being here by a large part of our fan base is why this would have only happened at Norwich. No other fan base would have accepted such a sale with such a flippant attitude 

[Cantiaci Canary 558]

8 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

The acceptance of mediocrity at this level and the feeling of awe at just being here by a large part of our fan base is why this would have only happened at Norwich. No other fan base would have accepted such a sale with such a flippant attitude 

But, the player clearly wanted to go up the food chain after winning two titles and we accepted the highest offer (breaking our previous record fee). 

Emotionally, it sucks, I get it, but in the cold light of day you have to seek solace in the facts and trust in Webber doing what's best.

 

Any way ... enough from me now I'm not going to stare at my phone all day. Thanks for the debate, it's genuinely interesting to hear what a fan on the 'other side' to me thinks. 👍

Edited June 6, 2021 by Cantiaci Canary

[Virtual reality 716]

1 minute ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

But, the player clearly wanted to go up the food chain after winning two titles and we accepted the highest offer (breaking our previous record fee). 

Emotionally, it sucks, I get it, but in the cold light of day you have to seek solace in the facts and trust in Webber doing what's best.

Villa are a bigger club, there can be no doubt about that but this is a club that got promoted with us through the play offs. A club that had it not be for an unprecedented technical error would have also been relegated with us. If we can’t fight off bids from such clubs that we should be aiming at competing with then there is absolutely no point in us being here 

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

32 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

Completely missing the point. I don’t care either way about Toney but he is their man player and only silly bids would be considered. We have not sold at silly prices

Not missing the point, I clearly answered your question with 'I don't know', which incidently neither do you. Its a mute point anyway, cannot see anyone coming in for him at that price just yet anyway. 

[mannings bandy legs 392]

1 hour ago, Virtual reality said:

Fact: no promoted team has ever cashed in on their main player. Fact: Toney and Sarr will both be playing for Watford and Brentford next season irrelevant of if a £35 million bid comes in

When Watford and Brentford are relegated next season they will both be gone. For less than the figures quoted!

[Virtual reality 716]

1 minute ago, mannings bandy legs said:

When Watford and Brentford are relegated next season they will both be gone. For less than the figures quoted!

Yes relegated, not before a PL ball has been kicked...

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

4 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

 A club that had it not be for an unprecedented technical error would have also been relegated with us. 

This is such a nonsensical statement, that incorrect decision happened in the first half of a game with 11 games still to go, if the correct decision was given the whole tactical flow of that game changes, let alone the 11 following games. They still might have gone on to stay up regardless of that decision, it almost became a parallel universe from that point. 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 hour ago, Wardogz said:

Perhaps if you pull your head out of the sand you'll notice that there was a pandemic that meant we were able to keep Emi for an extra year, under normal circumstances, he'd have been sold when we were relegated. Be grateful we didn't flog him off to Arsenal for 16 mill a year ago. 

Emi was on borrowed time, in a freak set of circumstances. 

And because of the fact we kept him for an extra season meant we were able to get promoted back to the PL.

Had we not kept him we'd have been in the Championship without him, likely Aarons and Cantwell and we'd still be there now with not as much money or as good a side.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

This would be absolutely wonderful if it wasn't that it ignores several massive omissions.

Firstly, this is not our first promotion with Buendia, Cantwell or Aarons - at least two of them were being watched when we were promoted last time out.

Most people would say you are much more likely to sell players upon relegation, and whilst we did sell Lewis and Godfrey, we also managed to hang on to other players as well.

A lot of emphasis is put on Buendia but one player a team doth not make.

Let's remember it is Farke that made Buendia, and there is absolutely no question of that. Buendia was raw when he arrived, he was impetuous, his game often featured a lot of wasted energy spent on histrionics. He would take on five players and throw himself to the floor as if fouled when he inevitably didn't dribble it past the 2nd. He'd try the fancy in our own third and lose the ball, leading to goals conceded. He lacked discipline.

Last season he improved on most of these and he tracked back more and there was less turf slapping and negative comments towards other players and gesticulating at the ref.

Honestly, the jury is out on whether Toney can do it in the prem, but arguably isn't their "star player" and the problem with Sarr is they paid £30mil for him - Watford wouldn't sell him on without a profit on that and arguably, he isn't the chance creator that Buendia is. So much like Pepe at Arsenal, you probably have an example of two players that teams have paid over the odds for.

I think if you are going to compare Toney to anyone it needs to be Pukki because they are the goalscorers. 

The other point missing is that the owners of Brentford and Watford have a much bigger bank balance that our owners.

We have to sell big to reinvest, they don't.

[horsefly 4,310]

11 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

And because of the fact we kept him for an extra season meant we were able to get promoted back to the PL.

Had we not kept him we'd have been in the Championship without him, likely Aarons and Cantwell and we'd still be there now with not as much money or as good a side.

I remember lots of fans on here saying that the sale of Maddison doomed us to an eternity in the championship if not automatic relegation. Remind me how that went.

[birchfest 397]

I would understand some of the doom and gloom mongers reactions if this sale had gone through on deadline day and no replacement had been brought in, especially if we had had an average window.

 

I think this is shaping up to be one of our biggest windows, possibly in the history of our club. Every chance we are going to be breaking our transfer record multiple times in the coming weeks, and we now have a decent pot to play with to make the whole squad stronger. 
 

The other thing I’d also point out, do you think Webber etc have only just woken up this morning and said ‘right, he’s gone… let’s start having a think about who we could get in?’. They have allowed this to happen, so there will be a bigger plan in play with regards to who comes in, this likely having been identified well in advance.

 

Im gutted to see him go, but Norwich are not one player. Southampton didn’t go down when they lost Mane or Van Djik, Leicester won the bloody league and still saw Kante and Mahrez go, look at them now… not exactly gone too bad for them. This in a weird way could end up being something we look back on and say it was sad but necessary.    

[chicken 2,640]

1 hour ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Seemed to me from the outside looking in, Emi appeared more 'loyal' (whatever that's actually supposed to mean) last summer than Cantwell. He got his head down, worked hard, and was integrated back into the side well before Cantwell. 

I suspect Cantwell is valued around £15-20 million in the current market. The only way Cantwell doesn't leave if that sort of money is offered, is if it's from a Brentford or Watford,  possibly one or two others. If Palace, Wolves, Leeds, etc, call - Cantwell leaves. And actually, for £20 million, I think we can replace Cantwell with better for less money with shrewd scouting, which we demonstrate consistently. 

I don't think willingness was anything to do with how long it took either to be integrated back into the side. At least we have no evidence that that wasn't the case.

There is also the contractual stuff with Cantwell that might have been part of the issue which wasn't with Buendia.

I wouldn't expect Buendia to be loyal. When we signed him he was an Argentinian rejected by Real Madrid, owned by Getafe and loaned out elsewhere. He may well have been more disloyal, thrown his toys out of the pram more than Cantwell - but it may have been that Webber and Farke sat him down and said, knuckle down and focus and you'll get your move next summer. Equally, it may have been his agent.

Cantwell's family are Norfolk, he knows what he does reflects on them and they'll be here when he moves on.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

23 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I remember lots of fans on here saying that the sale of Maddison doomed us to an eternity in the championship if not automatic relegation. Remind me how that went.

Exactly.

I'll reserve judgement until all the movement is done before I decide to get p'd off or not.

Webber has always shown himself to be shrewd, it's unlikely he's done this without having a plan.

[chicken 2,640]

2 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Nah, he's wanted out for ages, why do you think he hasn't signed a new deal. 

Watch as Arsenal sign him as their 5th choice.

Coming from someone that has done nothing but slag him off you'll have to forgive the majority of this forum for chuckling and totally shelving that view in the trash, where it belongs.

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Coming from someone that has done nothing but slag him off you'll have to forgive the majority of this forum for chuckling and totally shelving that view in the trash, where it belongs.

Care to fact check that?

I mean, yeah you could find some posts of mine criticising him, mainly for social media cringe. I guarentee I could match each one with three like this...

On 12/09/2020 at 17:03, TeemuVanBasten said:

He is to Norwich what Fernado Torres was to Athletico Madrid. 

Show Todd some love, lets persuade him to tie himself down until 2024! 

We saw today what the Championship Cantwell is.... its Dowell... and yeah he looks OK, but he's not on Cantwell's level. 

Yes Cantwell is a bit annoying on social media. Easy answer to that, unfollow him, enjoy his football... he's good at it. 

[chicken 2,640]

3 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Care to fact check that?

I mean, yeah you could find some posts of mine criticising him, mainly for social media cringe. I guarentee I could match each one with three like this...

We had quite animated interactions at the beginning of the season when you were accusing a lack in focus to mean a lot of other things which you had absolutely no evidence for.