Racism Report

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Just now, horsefly said:

Your usual pathetic response. Absolutely no argument, and no attempt to analyse the arguments contained in the tens of thousands of articles/books/reports on overt and institutionalised racism that have been peer-reviewed over decades, and are easily available on the net. Throw around a few slogans and pretend you're some kind of "lefty". What a strange kind of socialist whose views echo so fully the right-wing rants of the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Daily Express and the Tory Party. You're clearly a troll or just remarkably ignorant (almost certainly both). 

There is no point wasting time educating people who believe unproven ideological theory as an article of faith because they get social proof and good feels for going along with the herd. You are ideologically possessed my friend. Many people, like Brittany above, are starting to question this vile, divisive narrative but it takes the ability to think for yourself rather than stick with the security of the mob to wake up. What does it feel like to be a follower rather than an intellectually honest independent thinker?

[horsefly 4,301]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

There is no point wasting time educating people who believe unproven ideological theory as an article of faith because they get social proof and good feels for going along with the herd. You are ideologically possessed my friend. Many people, like Brittany above, are starting to question this vile, divisive narrative but it takes the ability to think for yourself rather than stick with the security of the mob to wake up. What does it feel like to be a follower rather than an intellectually honest independent thinker?

OMG!!! you really are a troll aren't you. The man who echos literally word-for-word the view-points of the right-wing press and the Tory party has the lack of self-awareness to accuse others of pushing a "vile divisive narrative". All you have done is throw about the utterly ridiculous label "Woke" at anything you don't agree with and you laughably think that makes you a free thinker. What a complete buffoon you are.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

OMG!!! you really are a troll aren't you. The man who echos literally word-for-word the view-points of the right-wing press and the Tory party has the lack of self-awareness to accuse others of pushing a "vile divisive narrative". All you have done is throw about the utterly ridiculous label "Woke" at anything you don't agree with and you laughably think that makes you a free thinker. What a complete buffoon you are.

And you have admitted that you don't know what it is. You are in an echo chamber and sound about two years out of date. In spaces such as Clubhouse the Woke are allowed their unhinged rants and then everyone ignores them, moves on and has a nuanced debate. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Mr.Carrow

[Herman 9,768]

It's just nonsense isn't it Mr C? I'm sure you're intelligent enough to realise it.

[horsefly 4,301]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

And you have admitted that you don't know what it is. You are in an echo chamber and sound about two years out of date. In spaces such as Clubhouse the Woke are allowed their unhinged rants and then everyone ignores them, moves on and has a nuanced debate. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Well since you are too dumb to actually read the many posts on this thread, or search the internet for some simple definitions, I suppose I should show pity on your intellectual incapacity and help you out.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=definition+of+institutional+racism&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=definition+of+institutional+racism&sc=3-34&sk=&cvid=09DFE6F4B7BF48A0A786D6D9657870D9

institutional racism

[institutional racism]

 

NOUN

1. racial discrimination that has become established as normal behaviour within a society or organization.

    

   Not too difficult for you to understand I hope, so maybe you can now go on-line and read some of the thousands of articles and reports that provide evidence for just how that manifests itself in all kinds of areas of society. Perhaps you could start with the numerous authors cited in Sewell's report who have subequently trashed it and claim that institutional racism is indeed a very real problem. However, knowing your reluctance to read I have even posted a video on this thread of a police officer demonstrating perfectly how it has become "normal behaviour" to assume that a black person driving a "posh" car in a "posh" area must be up to no good and therefore should be pulled over for questioning (feel free to explore the net for countless other videos showing exactly the same institutionalised racism).

 

 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=definition+of+woke&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=definition+of+woke&sc=8-18&sk=&cvid=57DD77E8FCF5444D8E755C008D82DA86

 

woke

[wəʊk]

 

VERB

1. past of wake.

ADJECTIVE

US

informal

1. alert to injustice in society, especially racism

    

   Now I'm going to assume that a right-wing sycophant like yourself isn't using the word "Woke" in this inoffensive non-pejorative sense. So perhaps you can tell us how you are using it, and why you think your blanket use of the term excuses you the onerous necessity of dealing with the actual arguments and claims being made by people you describe as  "Vile" and "divisive".

    

    

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

That's nice Horsefly. There's also a definition of unicorn in the dictionary and I'm sure you believe in them too.

For those still up for nuance ahead of ideological orthodoxy, this lady co-wrote "Cynical Theories" which is a great read as to how the current discourse got so crazy: https://areomagazine.com/2018/08/23/no-we-are-not-right-wing-we-are-liberal-lefties-and-we-are-many/

[horsefly 4,301]

46 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

That's nice Horsefly. There's also a definition of unicorn in the dictionary and I'm sure you believe in them too.

For those still up for nuance ahead of ideological orthodoxy, this lady co-wrote "Cynical Theories" which is a great read as to how the current discourse got so crazy: https://areomagazine.com/2018/08/23/no-we-are-not-right-wing-we-are-liberal-lefties-and-we-are-many/

Jesus! you're such a boring tedious waste of time. Yet again you fail to respond to a single point made. Carry on spouting the editorial line of the Daily Express, the Daily Mail, and the Tory Party. What a splendid rejection of "ideological orthodoxy" that represents. You clearly have no intention of engaging in genuine debate of the actual issues so I shan't bother wasting my time pointing out that "lefty" radicals don't tend to support the ruling right. Gosh! who would have thought it. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

That's nice Horsefly. There's also a definition of unicorn in the dictionary and I'm sure you believe in them too.

For those still up for nuance ahead of ideological orthodoxy, this lady co-wrote "Cynical Theories" which is a great read as to how the current discourse got so crazy: https://areomagazine.com/2018/08/23/no-we-are-not-right-wing-we-are-liberal-lefties-and-we-are-many/

Lots of theories and ideologies but very little activity.

Coffee shop left wing.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

24 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Jesus! you're such a boring tedious waste of time. Yet again you fail to respond to a single point made. Carry on spouting the editorial line of the Daily Express, the Daily Mail, and the Tory Party. What a splendid rejection of "ideological orthodoxy" that represents. You clearly have no intention of engaging in genuine debate of the actual issues so I shan't bother wasting my time pointing out that "lefty" radicals don't tend to support the ruling right. Gosh! who would have thought it. 

Didn't read any of the links I provided then? Bret Weinstein, whose whole channel is basically a fight back against the regressive, identity obsessed radicals (the Woke in other words) was an open Bernie supporter and heavily involved in Occupy wall st. Every link I've given is from the Left and there are thousands of other examples, including the Harpers letter signed by hundreds of liberals last year. You can't solve a problem if you deny it's existence and there is far more evidence that regressive, illiberal activists are a problem than nebulous terms such as "structural racism" which even true believers can't offer any definitive evidence for. You are totally out of touch.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Mr.Carrow

[horsefly 4,301]

1 minute ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Didn't read any of the links I provided then? Bret Weinstein, who's whole channel is basically a fight back against the regressive, identity obsessed radicals (the Woke in other words) was an open Bernie supporter and heavily involved in Occupy wall st. Every link I've given is from the Left and there are thousands of other examples, including the Harpers letter signed by hundreds of liberals last year. You can't solve a problem if you deny it's existence and there is far more evidence that regressive, illiberal activists are a problem than nebulous terms such as "structural racism" which even true believers can't offer any definitive evidence for. You are totally out of touch.

Yeah! shouting "woke" in a choir with the Daily Mail, Daily Express, and the Tories, at anything you disagree with is the height of a penetrating dismantling of the orthodox views of the ruling class. Glad you find yourself comfortable in the company of such people. What a buffoon!

[horsefly 4,301]

The utter farce of this discredited report continues. Two of the commission's own members have now gone on record to expose the truth that the report ignored or misrepresented evidence to serve the government's attempt to deny racism, both overt and institutional, remains a very significant problem in UK society. Another unnamed commissioner catgorically stated that the commission group did not deny the significance of institutional racism as the final report claimed. This is essentially a fraudulent document.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/no-10-faces-accusations-of-rewriting-controversial-race-report/ar-BB1fwTQ6?ocid=msedgntp

 

Downing Street is facing accusations of rewriting a controversial report into race inequalities, which has come under fire since its publication last month.

One of the 11 members of the independent Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities (CRED) is reported to have accused the government of “bending” its work to fit a more palatable political narrative, claiming that commissioners did not see the whole report before it was published.

And another commissioner, anti-racism activist Kunle Olulode, said that the report did not show enough understanding of institutional or structural discrimination and came to conclusions based on “selective” use of evidence.

One unnamed commissioner was quoted by The Observer as saying that sections of the 258-page document were not written by the CRED panel appointed last July.

“We did not read Tony’s foreword,” said the commissioner. “We did not deny institutional racism or play that down as the final document did. 

“The idea that this report was all our own work is full of holes. You can see that in the inconsistency of the ideas and data it presents and the conclusions it makes. That end product is the work of very different views.”

Edited April 11, 2021 by horsefly

[BigFish 1,987]

On 08/04/2021 at 20:02, Mr.Carrow said:

Didn't read any of the links I provided then? Bret Weinstein, whose whole channel is basically a fight back against the regressive, identity obsessed radicals (the Woke in other words) was an open Bernie supporter and heavily involved in Occupy wall st. Every link I've given is from the Left and there are thousands of other examples, including the Harpers letter signed by hundreds of liberals last year. You can't solve a problem if you deny it's existence and there is far more evidence that regressive, illiberal activists are a problem than nebulous terms such as "structural racism" which even true believers can't offer any definitive evidence for. You are totally out of touch.

None of was really of value, was it @Mr Carrow? It all seemed a random collection of American hyperbole? None of it has any intellectual rigour. None of it seems to be UK based. All your posts look like you are attempting to start a culture war in an empty room. Sorry to disappoint.

[Jools 584]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

 Two of the commission's own members have now gone on record... 

Nope, a single commissioner was named and another wants to remain anonymous (i.e. probably doesn't exist 🤪)

That particular commissioner has provided no facts or evidence, only an opinion -- If he were to agree with the report he'd lose his director position of the woke charity that can only exist for as long as they are able to chase racism where none exists.

Of course the hundreds of thousands of pounds he is pocketing plays no role whatsoever 😉

[Mr.Carrow 376]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

None of was really of value, was it @Mr Carrow? It all seemed a random collection of American hyperbole? None of it has any intellectual rigour. None of it seems to be UK based. All your posts look like you are attempting to start a culture war in an empty room. Sorry to disappoint.

I'm in the Americas so yes I engage more with their media (particularly on YouTube). We import American culture and, although we are not as bad yet, it is definitely coming. I could literally post thousands more links like this. If you don't see a problem, why do you think highly respected liberal journalists such as Matt Taibbi, Bari Weiss, Glen Greenwald (who broke the Snowdon affair), Matt Iglesias and Andrew Sullivan have put their careers on the line by speaking out about growing enforced ideological orthodoxy within institutions? Why did hundreds of liberal figures sign a public letter warning of the same? Why are black intellectuals such as John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes, Chloe Valdary, Glenn Loury and John Wood speaking out against CRT authoritarianism. I'm encouraging people to actually do some research and engage with different perspectives. Don't shoot the messenger.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

3 hours ago, BigFish said:

None of was really of value, was it @Mr Carrow? It all seemed a random collection of American hyperbole? None of it has any intellectual rigour. None of it seems to be UK based. All your posts look like you are attempting to start a culture war in an empty room. Sorry to disappoint.

BTW Pluckrose is English and lives in England. De Boer I'm not sure about. 

[Van wink 2,994]

22 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I'm in the Americas so yes I engage more with their media (particularly on YouTube). We import American culture and, although we are not as bad yet, it is definitely coming. I could literally post thousands more links like this. If you don't see a problem, why do you think highly respected liberal journalists such as Matt Taibbi, Bari Weiss, Glen Greenwald (who broke the Snowdon affair), Matt Iglesias and Andrew Sullivan have put their careers on the line by speaking out about growing enforced ideological orthodoxy within institutions? Why did hundreds of liberal figures sign a public letter warning of the same? Why are black intellectuals such as John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes, Chloe Valdary, Glenn Loury and John Wood speaking out against CRT authoritarianism. I'm encouraging people to actually do some research and engage with different perspectives. Don't shoot the messenger.

Good for you and interesting perspectives. Sadly we seem to create binary debate on most issues on this message board with limited tolerance and an eagerness towards abuse, which discourages a few no doubt, thanks for your input.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Van wink

[BigFish 1,987]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

BTW Pluckrose is English and lives in England. De Boer I'm not sure about. 

Pluckrose is hardly an intellectual heavyweight and neither is deBoer. Unsurprisng really as both trade in the cosnservative social media trope of creating a strawman and then arguing against it in an attempt to stir up a culture war. Very American.

The UK is different. Great strides are being made in creating a more decent society. The young no longer tolerate discrimanation of any sort and engage on the big issues of the day such as fairness, a better undersanding of the countries history and climate change. Conservatives and contrarians naturally try to oppose this and stoke up a culture war. However, to date they have been seen as a minority lunatic fringe.

[horsefly 4,301]

3 hours ago, Jools said:

Nope, a single commissioner was named and another wants to remain anonymous (i.e. probably doesn't exist 🤪)

That particular commissioner has provided no facts or evidence, only an opinion -- If he were to agree with the report he'd lose his director position of the woke charity that can only exist for as long as they are able to chase racism where none exists.

Of course the hundreds of thousands of pounds he is pocketing plays no role whatsoever 😉

Thick as shi*te as ever, and just like the report a complete distortion of the facts. These are not mere opinions being offered but statements of fact. If you have evidence that the commissioners' statements here are false then provide it

Let's look at some of the evidence so far:

1. Samuel Kasumu, who set up the group of commissioners, resigned his post on the day of publication.

2. Actual commissioners involved in the report say that they had no sight of the final report and claim that it seriously misrepresents the evidence put forward which supports the claim that institutionalised racism is a significant problem. They also claim that some of that evidence has been purposely excluded against their wishes.

3. Experts cited in the report as stakeholders say their views have been seriously misrepresented, and reject its process and conclusions.  

4. Experts cited in the report as authorities in the field say their views have been seriously misrepresented and reject its process and conclusions.

5. Expert professional bodies such as the BMJ are outraged that the report has ignored decades of peer-reviewed research providing masses of evidence for institutionalised racism.

6. Expert witness who gave evidence to the commission demonstrating the existence of institutionalised racism claim the report makes no mention of their evidence.

7. Hundreds (probably thousands by now) of academics have publicly described the report as a serious distortion of the facts and reject its findings.

 

I could go on. Never have I seen in my professional life a report so overwhelming rejected and ridiculed by experts in the relevant fields. This fraudulent piece of trash would fail as a first-year undergraduate essay; the fact that it is a government sponsored report is frankly scandalous.

 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

3 hours ago, BigFish said:

Pluckrose is hardly an intellectual heavyweight and neither is deBoer. Unsurprisng really as both trade in the cosnservative social media trope of creating a strawman and then arguing against it in an attempt to stir up a culture war. Very American.

The UK is different. Great strides are being made in creating a more decent society. The young no longer tolerate discrimanation of any sort and engage on the big issues of the day such as fairness, a better undersanding of the countries history and climate change. Conservatives and contrarians naturally try to oppose this and stoke up a culture war. However, to date they have been seen as a minority lunatic fringe.

Assertions, assertions. A totally fact-free post. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Thick as shi*te as ever, and just like the report a complete distortion of the facts. These are not mere opinions being offered but statements of fact. If you have evidence that the commissioners' statements here are false then provide it

Let's look at some of the evidence so far:

1. Samuel Kasumu, who set up the group of commissioners, resigned his post on the day of publication.

2. Actual commissioners involved in the report say that they had no sight of the final report and claim that it seriously misrepresents the evidence put forward which supports the claim that institutionalised racism is a significant problem. They also claim that some of that evidence has been purposely excluded against their wishes.

3. Experts cited in the report as stakeholders say their views have been seriously misrepresented, and reject its process and conclusions.  

4. Experts cited in the report as authorities in the field say their views have been seriously misrepresented and reject its process and conclusions.

5. Expert professional bodies such as the BMJ are outraged that the report has ignored decades of peer-reviewed research providing masses of evidence for institutionalised racism.

6. Expert witness who gave evidence to the commission demonstrating the existence of institutionalised racism claim the report makes no mention of their evidence.

7. Hundreds (probably thousands by now) of academics have publicly described the report as a serious distortion of the facts and reject its findings.

 

I could go on. Never have I seen in my professional life a report so overwhelming rejected and ridiculed by experts in the relevant fields. This fraudulent piece of trash would fail as a first-year undergraduate essay; the fact that it is a government sponsored report is frankly scandalous.

 

Apart from point one, everything you wrote is an assertion,, without fact. 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

5 hours ago, BigFish said:

Pluckrose is hardly an intellectual heavyweight and neither is deBoer. Unsurprisng really as both trade in the cosnservative social media trope of creating a strawman and then arguing against it in an attempt to stir up a culture war. Very American.

The UK is different. Great strides are being made in creating a more decent society. The young no longer tolerate discrimanation of any sort and engage on the big issues of the day such as fairness, a better undersanding of the countries history and climate change. Conservatives and contrarians naturally try to oppose this and stoke up a culture war. However, to date they have been seen as a minority lunatic fringe.

So you want to call a life long Left winger who wrote an article entitled "No, liberal lefties are not right wing and here's why" a conservative. Presumably you want to call the likes of Chomsky and hundreds of other liberals who signed the Harpers letter conservative too? Interesting that.you don't counter a single point raised in the links I posted. I doubt you or your fellow ideologically conformist travellers read them.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

I'd be interested in your (or anybodys...) take on this by a highly respected gay, liberal (openly Boden supporting) journalist who quit the NYT due to the oppressive and censorious  atmosphere which has recently taken over the place.

https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-roots-of-wokeness

[BigFish 1,987]

4 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

So you want to call a life long Left winger who wrote an article entitled "No, liberal lefties are not right wing and here's why" a conservative. Presumably you want to call the likes of Chomsky and hundreds of other liberals who signed the Harpers letter conservative too? Interesting that.you don't counter a single point raised in the links I posted. I doubt you or your fellow ideologically conformist travellers read them.

No, I am totally disinterested in US Internet trivia, it is just (social) media and self-published media noise when viewed from this side of the Atlantic. I have no interest in any culture war that you, or indeed anyone else on this message board, wish to start. These are solely intended to legitimise the status quo, the very definition of conservative. The UK is being made into a better, fairer society step by step. The removal of Colstons statue moved the understanding of the UK's role in slavery forward fundamentally. However hard conservatives tried to undue this, it is not going to happen. Process may involve taking the occasional reverse steps, but the direction is clear.

[BigFish 1,987]

4 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I'd be interested in your (or anybodys...) take on this by a highly respected gay, liberal (openly Boden supporting) journalist who quit the NYT due to the oppressive and censorious  atmosphere which has recently taken over the place.

https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-roots-of-wokeness

Boden supporting is very different in the UK

[king canary 7,607]

I do agree there are some serious issues with 'woke' American culture and its pure obsession with identity politics over all.

However that doesn't mean institutional racism isn't a very real thing. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

7 hours ago, BigFish said:

No, I am totally disinterested in US Internet trivia, it is just (social) media and self-published media noise when viewed from this side of the Atlantic. I have no interest in any culture war that you, or indeed anyone else on this message board, wish to start. These are solely intended to legitimise the status quo, the very definition of conservative. The UK is being made into a better, fairer society step by step. The removal of Colstons statue moved the understanding of the UK's role in slavery forward fundamentally. However hard conservatives tried to undue this, it is not going to happen. Process may involve taking the occasional reverse steps, but the direction is clear.

Just how arrogant must you have to be to have a strong opinion about a subject, hand wave away people who have studied and written widely on it as "not exactly an intellectual heavyweight" whilst admitting that you can't be bothered to educate yourself as to what you're opining on.

[BigFish 1,987]

Just now, Mr.Carrow said:

Just how arrogant must you have to be to have a strong opinion about a subject, hand wave away people who have studied and written widely on it as "not exactly an intellectual heavyweight" whilst admitting that you can't be bothered to educate yourself as to what you're opining on.

Not arrogant. There is just no need to indulge you, or them in the Culture War you are so keen on.

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

I do agree there are some serious issues with 'woke' American culture and its pure obsession with identity politics over all.

However that doesn't mean institutional racism isn't a very real thing. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Totally agree. Nobody say's there aren't other societal issues beyond race at work (and yes there are those that unduly champion them - so called identity politics) but only this report seems to of gone out its way to downplay the race issue by it appears selectively or wholesale misrepresenting many of the people who's so called evidence (cherry picked quotes) as 'stakeholders' it uses and who are now so thoroughly & publicly disassociating themselves from this work of political fiction.

It comes across as simply a piece of political theatre not a serious study of the problem.   

[Mr.Carrow 376]

9 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Not arrogant. There is just no need to indulge you, or them in the Culture War you are so keen on.

What does that sand taste like BF? The culture war is here whether you like it or not and at some point in the next few years you will have an "aha" moment. It's what has happened to the thousands of liberals now speaking out. Most didn't particularly want to but once you've seen something, you can't unsee it. Many people don't realise that Orwell wrote 1984 about the far Left rather than fascism. He was chillingly correct.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Mr.Carrow

[Orly 277]

19 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I'm in the Americas so yes I engage more with their media (particularly on YouTube). We import American culture and, although we are not as bad yet, it is definitely coming. I could literally post thousands more links like this. If you don't see a problem, why do you think highly respected liberal journalists such as Matt Taibbi, Bari Weiss, Glen Greenwald (who broke the Snowdon affair), Matt Iglesias and Andrew Sullivan have put their careers on the line by speaking out about growing enforced ideological orthodoxy within institutions? Why did hundreds of liberal figures sign a public letter warning of the same? Why are black intellectuals such as John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes, Chloe Valdary, Glenn Loury and John Wood speaking out against CRT authoritarianism. I'm encouraging people to actually do some research and engage with different perspectives. Don't shoot the messenger.

Would like this 1000 times if possible.

I started my 'political opinion holding' on the far left (anarcho communist) as a teenager, softened to just 'communist'  (lol), then found a comfortable political home in 'socially centre-left, and economically socialist' (i.e capitalism with a big - and fit for purpose - state support network for all disadvantaged people).

I spent plenty of time in my life arguing and advocating for radical political change from a far left perspective, but never considered that immutable characteristics would start being suggested as a criteria for legislation / treatment from the state (and god help us if the far right ever got in power, should it become socially-allowable to legislate via identity!).  

I would also like to encourage people to go and listen to some of the above speakers (am most familiar with John McWhorter & Coleman Hughes out of the above) with as open a mind as possible, and think about the similarities between far left identity politics and far right identity politics.   In terms of the mode of their operation from a logical perspective, they are identical and it terrifies me.  

And as I point out above, the far left have been concerning me for a number of years now with the increased emphasis on Critical Race Theory and by extension the concept of institutional & systemic racism, but it's not actually them I'm worried about in the long term, it's the far right authoritarian reaction.

However, my worry may well be misplaced - which I accept - but that doesn't make the CRT ideology (which is riddled with correlation / causation fallacies) correct, regardless.