Racism Report

[sonyc 5,518]

6 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Macpherson did not get things badly wrong, but it was written over twenty years ago and focuses on policing. The Sewell report is wider ranging covering education, employment, policing and health. So it describes a much more detailed picture than the narrow focus of the Macpherson report. It also draws on a diverse range of authors in terms of ethnicity, politics, class and employment. Some of the reviews written for Sewell include:

• The Timpson Review of School Exclusion • The Children’s Commissioner’s ‘Best beginnings in the early years’ report • The McGregor-Smith Review: Race in the Workplace • The Parker Review: Ethnic diversity of UK boards • The Lammy Review: An independent review into the treatment of, and outcomes for, Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic individuals in the Criminal Justice System • The Angiolini Review: Deaths and serious incidents in police custody • The Marmot Review: Fair Society, Healthy Lives • The Wessely Review: Modernising the Mental Health Act

Those issues are valid (and you'll know I'm someone who has read both Marmot review reports). The row has been about the minimisation of the issue of institutional racism. That's what has angered people.

But you've stated it doesn't exist. We don't really have a basis for discussion as we have no common starting point or very little do we? That is if you are determined to say IR doesn't exist and are immoveable on that view. Just agree to disagree and the matter is done with isn't it. No point in wasting more time.

[Fen Canary 823]

44 minutes ago, sonyc said:

It's not my word though. It's what you get told by work colleagues, friends let alone reports you read or the research you do (I've spent 40 years in a multi cultural city and at various times the majority of my contacts, acquaintances, friends are from black/ethnic/minority groups). I don't think we have a debate do we? You state it doesn't exist. Class and gender are of course very relevant too, as are skills etc etc.

I hear and listen and get my experiences from my own milieu. We have very different backgrounds and I don't think I am able to give you anything you'd accept. I can't give you the metrics. Look at many organisations and see who is seated at the top of them. Go to corporate events and see the white middle class men in suits there. It really isn't hard to witness. How you wish to respond to that is your choice isn't it. This thread is like the male violence one. People arguing the seemingly impossible. My reply at that time before leaving was that we should for a start listen to what is being said. Not what we are told or put in a report. But listen, in real time. Do that and you cannot go wrong. You then have a choice in real time on how you react. Arguing here with folk who have defences as strong as those keeping out the North Sea won't get us anywhere on this issue.

Everything starts by real listening. The world would solve all its problems starting with this. The Good Friday agreement was one such political example in recent history. Sorry for going on about listening. I just think I can't get my point across well enough and McPherson seemed to give a really strong definition. Just because it is 20 years old doesn't make it invalid. Not for me anyway. It's sad so little has changed.

The McPherson report was narrowly focused on policing though, and written a generation ago. The attitudes of those in the Met in the late 90’s isn’t necessarily the same as society as a whole in 2020. For many on here to dismiss the new report simply because it hasn’t found the results they were hoping for is symptomatic of the whole debate.

For what it’s worth I have listened to your opinions, it’s just that I don’t necessarily agree with them, largely because I’ve never seen any evidence of institutional racism, and nobody has ever been able to prove it actually exists except in theory. If something can’t be proven, quantified or measured, or any concrete examples given for its existence except for people’s feelings, how is the government supposed to enact change. What is it to base its policies on?

Finally, The prevalence of white middle aged men In boardrooms is more a result of old money and contacts than hidden racism in my opinion. They’re essentially an old boys network, which is why there is also nobody from a council estate among their number. 

[Bill 1,788]

10 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

They’re essentially an old boys network, which is why there is also nobody from a council estate among their number. 

and those blacks who are not from a council estate ?

[horsefly 4,300]

3 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I’ve read enough on the matter from various sources to know I don’t agree it exists. Racism exists, that much is blindingly obvious, but I don’t believe it exists structurally/institutionally.

Also why is the fact black ladies are more likely to die in childbirth a clear case of racism? Seeing as almost a quarter of NHS staff are ethnic minority, and a higher percentage again of doctors and nurses are non white it’s a very strange organism to accuse of being racist. Do you not think the fact that black peoples tend to live in poorer areas with more rundown/crowded hospitals play a part? Or that they are less likely to drive, more likely to live in crowded cities, or have partners present to be able to get to the hospital quickly push the risks up slightly? Maybe there are cultural differences we’re not aware of?

Differences in outcomes are affected by many varying factors. Just because in this instance one group performs much worse than another isn’t proof doctors prioritise white patients over black ones.

By your logic I could prove I’ve creams cause people to drown, as on the days more ice creams are sold more people a killed drowning. In reality it’s obvious that more ice creams are sold on hot days, and more people go swimming on hot days hence the increase in both figures.

You’ve done something similar with these figures, simply looked at the differing outcomes and attributed it to racism without looking at any underlying factors, which is exactly what the Sewell report was saying

Jesus! and you had the cheek to call me childish. This is academically infantile. You clearly have no understanding at all what is meant by institutional/structural racism. No wonder you keep making ridiculous comments about it. You might at least attempt to grasp the most simple point that it is NOT the same as overt racism. The fact you haven't understood this makes any debate impossible. You could also at least acknowledge that large numbers of academics and experts are critical of the report precisely because of its failure to recognise that the cultural, economic and religious factors the report cites often have underlying/structural racist causes. I repeat again the Oxford University professor of psychiatry Kamaldeep Bhui:

"My view is that it’s really poor scholarship and really poor chairmanship and interpretation... There are nuances, that’s no question. This is a difficult topic, but to be so ignorant of what institutional racism means is quite extraordinary. You can’t explain it other than people are just working backwards from their prior ideologies and assumptions and retrofit the data, which is why everyone’s upset because it’s obvious that the data says something else."

And Richard Murray, chief executive of The King’s Fund, said:

“While it is important to not generalise about the cause of health inequalities among black and ethnic minority people, the importance of structural racism must not be downplayed.”

Apparently, these and countless other experts are, according to you, lying about the existence of institutionalised/structural racism. You, with no knowledge or expertise at all in this area, know better than these people with years of study, analysis and expertise. I'm sure they will be knocking at your door desperate to gain access to your magical  uniformed insights, they could have saved themselves years of intellectual slog collecting and analysing data if they had only realised there was no need to bother doing so.

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by horsefly

[Fen Canary 823]

43 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Jesus! and you had the cheek to call me childish. This is academically infantile. You clearly have no understanding at all what is meant by institutional/structural racism. No wonder you keep making ridiculous comments about it. You might at least attempt to grasp the most simple point that it is NOT the same as overt racism. The fact you haven't understood this makes any debate impossible. You could at least acknowledge that large numbers of academics and experts are critical of the report because of its failure to recognise that the cultural, economic and religious factors the report cites have underlying/structural racist causes. I repeat again the Oxford University professor of psychiatry Kamaldeep Bhui:

"My view is that it’s really poor scholarship and really poor chairmanship and interpretation... There are nuances, that’s no question. This is a difficult topic, but to be so ignorant of what institutional racism means is quite extraordinary. You can’t explain it other than people are just working backwards from their prior ideologies and assumptions and retrofit the data, which is why everyone’s upset because it’s obvious that the data says something else."

And Richard Murray, chief executive of The King’s Fund, said:

“While it is important to not generalise about the cause of health inequalities among black and ethnic minority people, the importance of structural racism must not be downplayed.”

Apparently, these and countless other experts are, according to you, lying about the existence of institutionalised/structural racism. You, with no knowledge or expertise at all in this area, know better than these people with years of study, analysis and expertise. I'm sure they will be knocking at your door desperate to gain access to your magical  uniformed insights, they could have saved themselves years of intellectual slog collecting and analysing data if they had only realised there was no need to bother doing so.

 

Again, there is no explanation in those comments of what structural/institutional racism actually is though, and why it is to blame for any discrepancies between the various ethnicities rather than other factors such as wealth and class. 

Not a single poster has given me any examples of what structural/institutional racism is (except pointing to a single report a generation ago regarding attitudes in the Metropolitan Police), how it manifests itself and affects people’s life outcomes etc, in ways that can’t be attributed to many other factors.

You say I clearly don’t understand what is mess as my by structural racism and you’re correct that I don’t, at least in the manner you seem to suggest it exists anyway so please enlighten me. Give me examples of where it exists, and what the government can do to combat it

[Fen Canary 823]

2 hours ago, Bill said:

and those blacks who are not from a council estate ?

They don’t tend to come from old money do they, hence they don’t have the contacts, favours and the leg ups enjoyed by those who populate the boardrooms 

[horsefly 4,300]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

Again, there is no explanation in those comments of what structural/institutional racism actually is though, and why it is to blame for any discrepancies between the various ethnicities rather than other factors such as wealth and class. 

Not a single poster has given me any examples of what structural/institutional racism is (except pointing to a single report a generation ago regarding attitudes in the Metropolitan Police), how it manifests itself and affects people’s life outcomes etc, in ways that can’t be attributed to many other factors.

You say I clearly don’t understand what is mess as my by structural racism and you’re correct that I don’t, at least in the manner you seem to suggest it exists anyway so please enlighten me. Give me examples of where it exists, and what the government can do to combat it

Do some very simple research for God's sake. Multiple thousands of experts from around the world have explained and used the concept, and there are thousands of articles and reports on the subject easily available on the net with just a click of the mouse. The fact you refuse to do that simple research and are smugly happy to say that you've never personally witnessed institutional racism (what a surprise!) speaks volumes. It doesn't matter what anyone says here you obstinately refuse to make any attempt to understand its meaning or reality. 

[Icecream Snow 761]

10 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Not a single poster has given me any examples of what structural/institutional racism is (except pointing to a single report a generation ago regarding attitudes in the Metropolitan Police), how it manifests itself and affects people’s life outcomes etc, in ways that can’t be attributed to many other factors.

You say I clearly don’t understand what is mess as my by structural racism and you’re correct that I don’t, at least in the manner you seem to suggest it exists anyway so please enlighten me. Give me examples of where it exists, and what the government can do to combat it

How many times have you been stopped by the police? In twenty years of driving with over 300,000 miles I've only ever been stopped once, when the glue on my tax disc holder meant my road tax disc was lying on my dashboard.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/aug/03/tottenham-danny-rose-tired-of-police-stopping-him-to-ask-if-car-is-stolen

[horsefly 4,300]

10 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

They don’t tend to come from old money do they, hence they don’t have the contacts, favours and the leg ups enjoyed by those who populate the boardrooms 

And there you have it! An excellent example of institutional racism that you manage to state but completely lack the ability to recognise. Laughable! 

[Fen Canary 823]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

And there you have it! An excellent example of institutional racism that you manage to state but completely lack the ability to recognise. Laughable! 

That’s not racism, that’s classism, and reflects the lack of social mobility in this country. It affects poor whites as well as ethnic minorities, therefore it cannot be racism if it affects every ethnicity. That’s been the point of the entire debate tonight, that none of these problems only affect ethnic minorities, almost all can be explained by wealth, class and a number of other factors which have much more of an impact on people’s lives than their race

[Fen Canary 823]

1 hour ago, Icecream Snow said:

How many times have you been stopped by the police? In twenty years of driving with over 300,000 miles I've only ever been stopped once, when the glue on my tax disc holder meant my road tax disc was lying on my dashboard.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/aug/03/tottenham-danny-rose-tired-of-police-stopping-him-to-ask-if-car-is-stolen

When I was younger driving around in the early hours I was pulled over quite a bit, and a friend who used to drive his dads brand new Merc that no teenager could afford also got pulled up a lot more than the rest of us, for the simple fact it was out of the ordinary. Neither happen so much anymore as we’ve got older.

Ultimately the police are there to do a job. If cars are going missing in North London then you’d expect them to pull over the demographic most likely to be stealing them, in this case young men.

Despite all the furore over stop and search, the percentages of those stopped are largely in line with the population demographics of the areas in which they’re conducted. However this doesn’t translate to the national percentages as most are carried out in our major cities with higher ethnic minority populations 

[Fen Canary 823]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Do some very simple research for God's sake. Multiple thousands of experts from around the world have explained and used the concept, and there are thousands of articles and reports on the subject easily available on the net with just a click of the mouse. The fact you refuse to do that simple research and are smugly happy to say that you've never personally witnessed institutional racism (what a surprise!) speaks volumes. It doesn't matter what anyone says here you obstinately refuse to make any attempt to understand its meaning or reality. 

Ok, forget everything that has been before. Explain to me in your own words what structural/institutional racism is, how it manifests itself and what forms it takes, how it affects ethnic minorities and in which organisations it is prevalent in Britain. Make me understand it 

[Herman 9,765]

7 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Debase the whole institutional racism argument using facts, figures and statistics? 

No, trying to push away a problem with a shoddy report and a whole lot of gaslighting.

Who to believe? A government that got to power through a pack of lies with a leader known for dog-whistle racism. Or loads of people with loads of lived experiences.

Doreen Lawrence says No 10 report gives 'racists the green light'.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/01/doreen-lawrence-says-no-10-report-gives-racists-the-green-light

Edited April 2, 2021 by Herman

[Herman 9,765]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

That’s not racism, that’s classism, and reflects the lack of social mobility in this country. It affects poor whites as well as ethnic minorities, therefore it cannot be racism if it affects every ethnicity. That’s been the point of the entire debate tonight, that none of these problems only affect ethnic minorities, almost all can be explained by wealth, class and a number of other factors which have much more of an impact on people’s lives than their race

The good news is that the government are going to get a report on the class divide chaired and written by Jacob Rees Mogg and Claire Fox.😉

[horsefly 4,300]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

That’s not racism, that’s classism, and reflects the lack of social mobility in this country. It affects poor whites as well as ethnic minorities, therefore it cannot be racism if it affects every ethnicity. That’s been the point of the entire debate tonight, that none of these problems only affect ethnic minorities, almost all can be explained by wealth, class and a number of other factors which have much more of an impact on people’s lives than their race

Really! Are you honestlty suggesting your intellectual capacity doesn't stretch to the possibility that there can be more than one reason why various groups of people might be victims of prejudice? That you don't understand that a white working class person might not make it to the boardroom because of class, but that a middle-class black person might not make it to the boardroom because of his/her colour? Wow! that's astonishingly naive. You won't find a single proponent of the concept of institutional racism that would argue anything other than the coexistence of various forms of prejudice. Does it really need explaining to you that racism in its overt and institutional forms can exist alongside factors like poverty, and class prejudice? Some people have even coined the term "intersectionality" to describe the situation when these combine in the case of a particular individual or group; you would know this if you bothered to read any of the huge number of articles available. 

[Fen Canary 823]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

No, trying to push away a problem with a shoddy report and a whole lot of gaslighting.

Who to believe? A government that got to power through a pack of lies with a leader known for dog-whistle racism. Or loads of people with loads of lived experiences.

Doreen Lawrence says No 10 report gives 'racists the green light'.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/01/doreen-lawrence-says-no-10-report-gives-racists-the-green-light

If there were that many “lived experiences” then surely there would be some facts and measurable statistics backing up their discrimination?

Also I find it strange, many on here make fun of those who read the tabloids, claiming they’re gullible and easily brainwashed, yet at the same time uncritically believe and repeat every opinion piece they read in the Guardian 

[horsefly 4,300]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Ok, forget everything that has been before. Explain to me in your own words what structural/institutional racism is, how it manifests itself and what forms it takes, how it affects ethnic minorities and in which organisations it is prevalent in Britain. Make me understand it 

It really is damn easy to find out about these things; just do some reading instead of lazily and obstinately refusing to address the points anyone makes against your astonishingly naive claim that because you've never seen institutional racism it thus can't exist. But in the spirit of kindness I will provide you a link to a video (no reading required) that is one among countless examples demonstrating the institutionalised racism that people of colour encounter on a daily basis. The "wonderful" irony here is that the police officer concerned explicitly claims he is not racist and then proceeds to display all the institutionalised racist assumptions that pervade in people like him (Something Macpherson reported on as you would know if you had bothered to read the report) 

 

[kick it off 1,952]

not finished, accidental post

Edited April 2, 2021 by kick it off

[Fen Canary 823]

18 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Really! Are you honestlty suggesting your intellectual capacity doesn't stretch to the possibility that there can be more than one reason why various groups of people might be victims of prejudice? That you don't understand that a white working class person might not make it to the boardroom because of class, but that a middle-class black person might not make it to the boardroom because of his/her colour? Wow! that's astonishingly naive. You won't find a single proponent of the concept of institutional racism that would argue anything other than the coexistence of various forms of prejudice. Does it really need explaining to you that racism in its overt and institutional forms can exist alongside factors like poverty, and class prejudice? Some people have even coined the term "intersectionality" to describe the situation when these combine in the case of a particular individual or group; you would know this if you bothered to read any of the huge number of articles available. 

That’s convenient isn’t it, even though both whites and non whites are discriminated against in exactly the same way, one happens to be racism and the other one doesn’t?

It’s no wonder ideas such as intersectionality and critical race theory enjoy almost no support outside of the university campus, the hypocrisy and mental gymnastics involved are outstanding 

[horsefly 4,300]

3 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

If there were that many “lived experiences” then surely there would be some facts and measurable statistics backing up their discrimination?

There are millions of examples from around the world as well as in this country. You just refuse to read them or acknowledge them, then claim that institutionalised racism doesn't exist. When Nelson held up the telescope to his blind eye and said "I see no ships", he at least new his intention was to mislead, you are either painfully ignorant or indulging in racist denial of the facts that are so painfully apparent and well documented.

[horsefly 4,300]

3 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

That’s convenient isn’t it, even though both whites and non whites are discriminated against in exactly the same way

You truly are one of the most ignorant people I have encountered on this site. Your claim here is the perfect example of the logical fallacy of begging the question. No wonder you don't understand the concept of institutionalised racism when you wilfully refuse to recognise that black people are frequently discriminated against on grounds of their colour. How anyone could watch the video link I just posted then claim that white and black people are discriminated against in "exactly the same way" is beyond belief.

The definition of a bigot is: 

"NOUN

1. a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

    

   I truly can't be bothered to waste my time any longer on responding to someone who fits that definition so perfectly.

 

[kick it off 1,952]

10 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

That’s convenient isn’t it, even though both whites and non whites are discriminated against in exactly the same way, one happens to be racism and the other one doesn’t?

It’s no wonder ideas such as intersectionality and critical race theory enjoy almost no support outside of the university campus, the hypocrisy and mental gymnastics involved are outstanding 

 

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Ok, forget everything that has been before. Explain to me in your own words what structural/institutional racism is, how it manifests itself and what forms it takes, how it affects ethnic minorities and in which organisations it is prevalent in Britain. Make me understand it 

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/poverty-rates-among-ethnic-groups-great-britain#:~:text=The income poverty rate varies,%) have the lowest rates.

Read that.

You're right that class and class discrimination is very real in this country. Where you are falling down at the moment is that you seem to think the structural class inequality replaces structural racism when in fact the two not only co-exist but also are actually inextricably linked.

My partner is from the rough end of Nottingham, I'm from a middle class background. We have very different lived experiences and perspectives on some things. Being from a council estate in Nottingham means that her school was a melting pot of races. There was one black kid at my middle class white school. Currently (20 years later) one of those schools is rated "Outstanding" by Ofsted, and the other is "Special Measures" (The tier below inadequate) - I'll let you guess which way round that goes. The disparity in education affects kids of all of colours, however there is literally no way to deny it disproportionately affects children from other races, and benefits white kids in the middle class schools whilst kids from other races don't have the same opportunities.

I agree with you that poverty and class is the driving factor in inequality in this country rather than overt racism, the disagreement we have here, is you are refusing to accept that poverty disproportionately affects non-white people and that in itself is where you can find the beginnings of the structural racism. The system is set up for the poor to fail, but there are various institutional level issues that are directly or indirectly racist that keep people of other ethnic origins poor and you're not seeming to grasp that fact. Nobody is saying if you're white then you have it easy, but I have literally never been stopped by the police for anything. I know black people who have been stopped 20+ times for just walking in the street - including black people you would consider to be "middle class"... In education, look at where the poorly attaining schools are and look at the demographics from the surrounding areas.... why is more not being done to support those schools (who have white pupils too, nobody is trying to erase them from the conversation, again the point is that there is a multiplier effect on people of colour due to poverty being disproportionately drawn on racial lines).

The statistics exist all over society if you look for them. Here are a few questions for you.

1) Black Caribbean kids are 3.5 times more likely to be excluded from school. Why?

2) 46% of Black households are in poverty. Less than 20% of white households are. Why?

3) Black Children are 4 times more likely to be arrested than White children. Why?

4) Black people are more than 10 times more likely to be stopped and searched than White people. Why? (85% of searches never result in a charge by the way)

5) 54% of BAME teachers say they have experienced situations they felt was demeaning to their racial heritage. Why?

 

Try reading this too - https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/institutional-racism

 

 

 

[sonyc 5,518]

8 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

The McPherson report was narrowly focused on policing though, and written a generation ago. The attitudes of those in the Met in the late 90’s isn’t necessarily the same as society as a whole in 2020. For many on here to dismiss the new report simply because it hasn’t found the results they were hoping for is symptomatic of the whole debate.

For what it’s worth I have listened to your opinions, it’s just that I don’t necessarily agree with them, largely because I’ve never seen any evidence of institutional racism, and nobody has ever been able to prove it actually exists except in theory. If something can’t be proven, quantified or measured, or any concrete examples given for its existence except for people’s feelings, how is the government supposed to enact change. What is it to base its policies on?

Finally, The prevalence of white middle aged men In boardrooms is more a result of old money and contacts than hidden racism in my opinion. They’re essentially an old boys network, which is why there is also nobody from a council estate among their number. 

I've never seen (for myself) that the world is round. The horizon always looks much on the same level to me. Or it goes upwards (if I'm in Scotland). But I see and read things that demonstrate to me it's a globe. Ridiculous isn't it. You'll now tell me there is evidence. But you cannot SEE everything. You have to trust a lived experience. You have to listen (an old theme again). Or you can just carry on in life with cloth ears and rose tinted glasses.

Folk tell me they've seen ghosts. I can't prove that they haven't. Should I believe them then? Well yes, why wouldn't I? That's their experience. People through my work tell me about the abuse they've suffered, through childhood, in relationships. They tell me now how it affects them, their symptoms, their struggles. Do I believe them? Well yes I do. They are real people with real feelings.  People tell me about their job history, their experience of racism in job applications, in buying cars (ignored by salesmen in posh car showrooms because surely the Afro Caribbean chap couldn't afford one of those). The list goes on.

This is all first hand. So much online is available to read. People's LIVED experiences. They don't talk but shout at you (hence my capitals). Perhaps you've had a really sheltered life Fen? Perhaps? I've worked in poverty stricken communities for 40 plus years (oh and I read tabloids too, just like my mum and dad did. I know my place too, I'm a pleb....that's 100% a fact...but I do try and educate myself and keep up). I don't need much more 'evidence'. Yet my colleagues tell me the same stories and academics tell me in our organisational development.

I don't think anyone is saying that the report doesn't contain useful information or denying the influence of class etc. Of course they're valid too.

I will just return to my point before. Get out and about and talk and listen to people. You'll get a broader view of lived experiences (and I am not meaning to patronise you here). Talk to your brickie colleague and ask about his friends and acquaintances. You might be shocked (I think) what you'll hear.

Even after 40 years (and I'm an idealist I will confess) I still am shocked, regularly. It shows me you know, I don't know everything.

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by sonyc

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

We don't need statistics because they can be used in any fashion you want.

And I also think the whole argument has become polarised into just concentrating on Afro Caribbean black people.

John Cleese created a bit of a storm when he remarked that he didn't feel English in London any more. His statement was seized on as racist.

I am one of those who believe him when he said he was talking about the forgotten aspect of culture. So many people from different nations have settled in this country. And the culture they have brought with them has changed so much of our attitudes.

Who of a certain age can forget that skinheads, quite vocal in their right wing attitudes used to dance along to reggae music? And so many love blues music yet they have never suffered anything that the lyrics portray.

Some of our Metropolitans have what are colloquially called Chinatown where so many of us can either eat and drink and even shop for goods.

And we are a better nation for all of this. And we have become a very tolerant nation because of it. That the job isn't finished is a problem to those who feel they are mistreated or abused.

To be honest, I do not have an answer. It is more in hope than certainty that I think things will get better in time as each new better educated generation emerges.

To a certain extent, each generation are pioneers. Which surprised me when so many wanted to leave the EU. I believe we need to prosper as a whole not individually and for the sake of peace as well as wealth, the world needs to compromise and cooperate.

 

[ron obvious 1,502]

27.50 mins. to about 40 mins.

 

[kick it off 1,952]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/uk-racial-disparity-report-consultation-fawlty-towers-like-former-met-officer-dal-babu-says

 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

9 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

 

Ultimately the police are there to do a job. If cars are going missing in North London then you’d expect them to pull over the demographic most likely to be stealing them, in this case young men.

 

The point here is that Rose´s car hadn´t gone missing

[Surfer 1,547]

On the other hand " I didn't take part" even though the Government listed me as doing so.... gets right back to the central issue with this Government, when the truth is expendable, no mandate exists to govern, and eventually  oppression will follow. 

[horsefly 4,300]

5 hours ago, ron obvious said:

27.50 mins. to about 40 mins.

 

She might have been more convincing if she didn't adopt the transparently obvious tactic of presenting a "straw man" argument against those who argue that institutionalised racism remains a real problem. It's all to easy to knock down an absurd claim that all the problems faced by ethnic minorities are caused by racism alone. She could add me to her list of objectors if anyone did make such a claim, the problem is she doesn't identify anyone on the left who actually does make that claim. It's no surprise at all that she attempts to mis-characterise the whole anti-racism lobby in that way because she will struggle to find any individual who doesn't recognise that there are numerous causes of discrimination.  Perhaps she would do well to listen to all those individuals who have been named as stakeholders in the report but who have subsequently rejected its findings and objected strongly to being associated with its claims about overt and institutionalised racism. Indeed, such has been the clamour of those whose names have been included in the report but who reject its findings, and those who offered evidence for racism but were excluded from the report, that the whole project is now without any credibility. This, of course, comes as no surprise to anyone who understood the very obvious reason why Johnson appointed two individuals to lead the commission who already had a long and controversial record of denying the existence of institutionalised racism. Their subsequent attempt to lend credibility to the report by falsely  associating it with recognised experts in the field who do not support its findings in any degree betrays the real political motive that lies behind it. 

[Fen Canary 823]

10 hours ago, kick it off said:

 

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/poverty-rates-among-ethnic-groups-great-britain#:~:text=The income poverty rate varies,%) have the lowest rates.

Read that.

You're right that class and class discrimination is very real in this country. Where you are falling down at the moment is that you seem to think the structural class inequality replaces structural racism when in fact the two not only co-exist but also are actually inextricably linked.

My partner is from the rough end of Nottingham, I'm from a middle class background. We have very different lived experiences and perspectives on some things. Being from a council estate in Nottingham means that her school was a melting pot of races. There was one black kid at my middle class white school. Currently (20 years later) one of those schools is rated "Outstanding" by Ofsted, and the other is "Special Measures" (The tier below inadequate) - I'll let you guess which way round that goes. The disparity in education affects kids of all of colours, however there is literally no way to deny it disproportionately affects children from other races, and benefits white kids in the middle class schools whilst kids from other races don't have the same opportunities.

I agree with you that poverty and class is the driving factor in inequality in this country rather than overt racism, the disagreement we have here, is you are refusing to accept that poverty disproportionately affects non-white people and that in itself is where you can find the beginnings of the structural racism. The system is set up for the poor to fail, but there are various institutional level issues that are directly or indirectly racist that keep people of other ethnic origins poor and you're not seeming to grasp that fact. Nobody is saying if you're white then you have it easy, but I have literally never been stopped by the police for anything. I know black people who have been stopped 20+ times for just walking in the street - including black people you would consider to be "middle class"... In education, look at where the poorly attaining schools are and look at the demographics from the surrounding areas.... why is more not being done to support those schools (who have white pupils too, nobody is trying to erase them from the conversation, again the point is that there is a multiplier effect on people of colour due to poverty being disproportionately drawn on racial lines).

The statistics exist all over society if you look for them. Here are a few questions for you.

1) Black Caribbean kids are 3.5 times more likely to be excluded from school. Why?

2) 46% of Black households are in poverty. Less than 20% of white households are. Why?

3) Black Children are 4 times more likely to be arrested than White children. Why?

4) Black people are more than 10 times more likely to be stopped and searched than White people. Why? (85% of searches never result in a charge by the way)

5) 54% of BAME teachers say they have experienced situations they felt was demeaning to their racial heritage. Why?

 

Try reading this too - https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/institutional-racism

 

 

 

You’re largely referring to black people of West Indian heritage, those from African backgrounds tend to outperform their white counterparts, as do the Indian and Chinese communities. Are you suggesting that racism is that nuanced in the UK that the country systematically holds back one black community, while the other one outperforms the white majority?

Or are there more likely reasons for the disparity, such as the fact the Caribbean community largely arrived during Windrush as poor and unskilled workers, as such living in poorer areas which have worse schools, higher crime rates and high levels of family breakdown? Whereas the African community tend to be much wealthier and more highly skilled, which they had to be in order to pass the visa requirements, so lived in nicer areas, had better jobs, went to better schools and had more opportunities?

Poverty is a hard cycle to escape from, as working class whites stuck at the bottom of the pile for generations have found. Those whose families arrived into the country poor have tended to stay that way, whereas those who had skills and money have overtaken their white countrymen and women.

As for your partners school, again that’s struggling because it’s in a poor area, with poor facilities and the associated problems that come from deprived areas such as high crime rates, drug abuse and family breakdowns. It isn’t like that due to any discriminatory policy aimed at it for being multi ethnic. Although anecdotally that probably doesn’t help, knowing a teacher in the past who worked in a school where the kids spoke over 40 different first languages she said teaching was almost impossible.

This is my argument against the notions of covert racism in this country. Every single one of the problems that have been mentioned affect the poor of every community, it just so happens some communities are poorer than others. Many of the problems that have been mentioned affect the predominantly white poor old fishing towns the same as ethnic minority inner city suburbs. Saying that X does better than Y therefore it must be due to racism strikes me as simplistic and lazy