TheGunnShow 5,940 Posted January 17 47 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said: They are in many way a version of mini-Trump and on the same slide into the gutter as the GOP. All they have is hate and divisiveness - anybody and anything else to blame but themselves. As a general rule, if any ruling party after a couple of terms has to attack opponents rather than have a strong, documented list of solid achievements to fall back on, you know they've underperformed. At that point the question becomes "are the alternatives likely to do better or worse?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,793 Posted January 17 40 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said: As a general rule, if any ruling party after a couple of terms has to attack opponents rather than have a strong, documented list of solid achievements to fall back on, you know they've underperformed. At that point the question becomes "are the alternatives likely to do better or worse?" Yes - but I don't really think this is the same 'Tory' party as of 2010 - love them or loathe them at the time. That party died in 2016 with the 'swivel-eyed-loons' (as clearly identified by Cameron no less) parasitizing it and the emergence of Johnson. It's the same as the GOP - that's just a populist cultist Trump fan club unrecognizable from say that of Regan or Bush. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,940 Posted January 17 10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said: Yes - but I don't really think this is the same 'Tory' party as of 2010 - love them or loathe them at the time. That party died in 2016 with the 'swivel-eyed-loons' (as clearly identified by Cameron no less) parasitizing it and the emergence of Johnson. It's the same as the GOP - that's just a populist cultist Trump fan club unrecognizable from say that of Regan or Bush. Agree with that in essence, but my previous comment was really aimed in the most general terms for general elections anywhere. If there really is a strong set of achievements, you'd think a ruling party would be happier to crow about that - often in reference to a vision they may already have stated beforehand - rather than have to keep attacking the opposition. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,779 Posted January 17 Honest and clean.....😐 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,526 Posted January 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, Herman said: Honest and clean.....😐 This will be a very unpleasant election campaign. Edited January 17 by sonyc Duplicate. Usual 502 code Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,526 Posted January 17 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Herman said: Honest and clean.....😐 This will be a very unpleasant election campaign. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering the like we haven't seen in British politics. I don't agree with Barbe Bleu that it will be fought by the Tories on policy, precisely because they've shown they are absolutely poor on policy (and delivery!) and best at sound bites like "global Britain", "world beating" and so on. ... not dry or pithy substance. Starmer doesn't need to campaign so much what the Tories have not delivered but focus on a clear message about what they are going to do. Clearly, the Conservatives office has a whole range of social media attacks that's about to be launched. The campaign has started hasn't it? October, probably November? That's the rumour mill. Another 9 months of them. Edited January 17 by sonyc 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barbe bleu 827 Posted January 17 30 minutes ago, sonyc said: This will be a very unpleasant election campaign. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering the like we haven't seen in British politics. I don't agree with Barbe Bleu that it will be fought by the Tories on policy... We'll see. Let's come back in 9 months to discuss who was closer. "Clean" and "dirty" are pretty subjective so let's try and define where we see the focus will be (focus being the word as everyone will work across the spectrum). For me the Conservatives will see that their best bet lies in identifying a key key issues and forcing the question 'and what would you do'. Faced with this Labour can either keep quiet or commit to a course of action and risk alienating its left or right flanks. In terms of the dirty campaign yourself and @TheGunnShow are predicting what would this look like? Would it be 'New Labour, new danger?' Demon eyes; you let Saville off; you're Jeremy corbyn in disguise? There's a few ways they could do it but i just can't see the punches landing against Starmer or the Labour front benches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canarydan23 4,060 Posted January 17 4 hours ago, Barbe bleu said: but i just can't see the punches landing against Starmer or the Labour front benches. Why not? Millions of you ****sticks believed the £350 million to the NHS, economically better out of the EU save our sovereignty, control our borders and funny-shaped bananas ****. That **** is flat-earth territory. If people can be convinced to think that is true, they can be convinced to believe anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barbe bleu 827 Posted January 17 6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said: Why not? Millions of you ****sticks believed the £350 million to the NHS, economically better out of the EU save our sovereignty, control our borders and funny-shaped bananas ****. That **** is flat-earth territory. If people can be convinced to think that is true, they can be convinced to believe anything. You ****sticks? No need for that. Anyway, moving on... People that are going to be convinced by the negative campaigning are already in the bag or with re-whatever they are now and so they aren't important to a tory campaign. Besides which it's difficult to criticise beige, its just beige. You are mildly more important because whilst you would slit your own throat before voting conservative you might be tempted to go with a hard left option if starmer is made to reveal his hand and you don't like what he is holding. Most important are the people between conservative, labour or not bothering in key seats that have a short list of priorities that they want someone to address. I think Conservatives will be worki g out where these issues lie, seek to emphasise them and sso set a headache for starmer, move to neutralise the issue and lose the left or surrender the ground. For the record I don't think it will work, but it's the beat shot they have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wings of a Sparrow 1,418 Posted January 18 Tiny Rishi soon to tell us how wonderful he is, how wonderful the Tory party is, and how they're carrying out the "will of the people" with the wonderful Rwanda plan. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,526 Posted January 18 24 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said: Tiny Rishi soon to tell us how wonderful he is, how wonderful the Tory party is, and how they're carrying out the "will of the people" with the wonderful Rwanda plan. Yep.And for what?The worst ever policy in history? Thousands arriving each week and possibly 300 to 400 being sent to Rwanda in total? The most expensive and most useless policy? It won't even act as a deterrent. Worse still, is the fact that we keep hearing of rebellions and Tory internal dramas and how far right they can go because they don't like their leader. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A Load of Squit 5,170 Posted January 18 14 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said: Stop the votes! 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,793 Posted January 18 (edited) 10 hours ago, Barbe bleu said: You ****sticks? No need for that. Anyway, moving on... People that are going to be convinced by the negative campaigning are already in the bag or with re-whatever they are now and so they aren't important to a tory campaign. Besides which it's difficult to criticise beige, its just beige. You are mildly more important because whilst you would slit your own throat before voting conservative you might be tempted to go with a hard left option if starmer is made to reveal his hand and you don't like what he is holding. Most important are the people between conservative, labour or not bothering in key seats that have a short list of priorities that they want someone to address. I think Conservatives will be worki g out where these issues lie, seek to emphasise them and sso set a headache for starmer, move to neutralise the issue and lose the left or surrender the ground. For the record I don't think it will work, but it's the beat shot they have. Whatever they are doing at the moment it isn't working! That's not only in the polls but just about everything they touch - NHS, PO etc! Edited January 18 by Yellow Fever 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wings of a Sparrow 1,418 Posted January 18 1 hour ago, sonyc said: Yep.And for what?The worst ever policy in history? Thousands arriving each week and possibly 300 to 400 being sent to Rwanda in total? The most expensive and most useless policy? It won't even act as a deterrent. Worse still, is the fact that we keep hearing of rebellions and Tory internal dramas and how far right they can go because they don't like their leader. Newsnight last night was questioning a Tory MP who was defending the Rwanda policy (of course) and the interviewer said that at current expected rates (a couple of hundred a year or suchlike) and the current backlog, it would take 500 years or something to clear. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,793 Posted January 18 1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said: Newsnight last night was questioning a Tory MP who was defending the Rwanda policy (of course) and the interviewer said that at current expected rates (a couple of hundred a year or suchlike) and the current backlog, it would take 500 years or something to clear. One flight to Rwanda this year will more or less clear all the (electoral) processing backlog of Tory MPs. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,301 Posted January 18 1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said: Newsnight last night was questioning a Tory MP who was defending the Rwanda policy (of course) and the interviewer said that at current expected rates (a couple of hundred a year or suchlike) and the current backlog, it would take 500 years or something to clear. It was Rees-Mogg being completely eviscerated and made to look an utter fool by the wonderful Victoria Derbyshire https://www.mediaite.com/uk/will-it-stop-the-boats-victoria-derbyshire-grills-jacob-rees-mogg-for-u-turn-on-ineffective-rwanda-bill/ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,526 Posted January 18 1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said: Newsnight last night was questioning a Tory MP who was defending the Rwanda policy (of course) and the interviewer said that at current expected rates (a couple of hundred a year or suchlike) and the current backlog, it would take 500 years or something to clear. It is just incredible isn't it? 358 arrived yesterday by boat on the coldest day of the year! Just think what the millions being spent could be used for. If I was advising the Tories I would suggest they could announce (each month in 2024) which hospitals would begin work on new medical facilities, new extensions etc....just as a start. Such positive announcements would mean much more to their core support. Not that the people in boats is not a human tragedy and a problem but the money is far better spent on prevention and administration. There MUST be infrastructure projects in the pipeline or ongoing but we mainly hear about internal Tory ideological battles. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wings of a Sparrow 1,418 Posted January 18 45 minutes ago, horsefly said: It was Rees-Mogg being completely eviscerated and made to look an utter fool by the wonderful Victoria Derbyshire https://www.mediaite.com/uk/will-it-stop-the-boats-victoria-derbyshire-grills-jacob-rees-mogg-for-u-turn-on-ineffective-rwanda-bill/ It was Victoria Derbyshire, but it wasn't JRM, but another chinless wonder I'd not heard of. First interviewee on from the HOC lobby. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,301 Posted January 18 58 minutes ago, sonyc said: It is just incredible isn't it? 358 arrived yesterday by boat on the coldest day of the year! Just think what the millions being spent could be used for. If I was advising the Tories I would suggest they could announce (each month in 2024) which hospitals would begin work on new medical facilities, new extensions etc....just as a start. Such positive announcements would mean much more to their core support. Not that the people in boats is not a human tragedy and a problem but the money is far better spent on prevention and administration. There MUST be infrastructure projects in the pipeline or ongoing but we mainly hear about internal Tory ideological battles. No one puts it better than Jess Phillips did yesterday in the House https://x.com/SalfordMe2023/status/1747879877137609011?s=20 1 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,940 Posted January 18 It takes a special brand of hare-brained nonsense to think this Rwanda malarkey would work. I mean, they're happy to risk drowning in the goddamn English Channel... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooreMarriot 310 Posted January 18 Thérèse Coffey thinks Kigali , capital of Rwanda , is another country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef9RRiXQ-6I Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,940 Posted January 18 4 minutes ago, MooreMarriot said: Thérèse Coffey thinks Kigali , capital of Rwanda , is another country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef9RRiXQ-6I Surprised she wasn't Foreign Secretary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barbe bleu 827 Posted January 18 4 minutes ago, MooreMarriot said: Thérèse Coffey thinks Kigali , capital of Rwanda , is another country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef9RRiXQ-6I I suspect its coffey being a pedant rather than thinking Kigali is a country. In some departments at least civil servants are told not to use the capital as a reference to the nation as a whole, so 'Kigali government' would be against the style guide. If i recall correctly Coffey sent out a memo to all staff when she was a minister expressing how much she objected to the Oxford comma as if that actually helped anyone so pointless pedantry would fit. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,526 Posted January 18 8 hours ago, Yellow Fever said: Under 50s poll here! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,793 Posted January 18 (edited) 12 minutes ago, sonyc said: Under 50s poll here! Wow. Looks like an extinction level event looms. People in rhe real not so cosy economy. Edited January 18 by Yellow Fever 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Well b back 3,216 Posted January 18 3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said: Wow. Looks like an extinction level event looms. People in rhe real not so cosy economy. Yep The likes of Jools laughed at me when I said the kids like our youngest, blame the older people for destroying what they wanted with Brexit. They therefore also hate the Tories. The only problem is getting them to vote in their droves as most of the kids don’t give a s*** about voting anymore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159 Posted January 18 looking forward to hear any coherent policies of this reform party, created to split the vote. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barbe bleu 827 Posted January 18 @sonyc @TheGunnShow appreciate you have not come back to me on where you see the campaign but thought i'd illustrate my point anyway. I don't usually watch question time but I caught tonight's. It was a perfect example of where I see the campaign going. On questions about the NHS and rwanda the tory candidate tried very hard to emphasise in a quietly assertive manner the question to his Labour candidate "and what would you do? Do you actually have a plan?" It's a challenge and a trap and it's the way I see the campaign continuing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fen Canary 829 Posted January 19 45 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said: @sonyc @TheGunnShow appreciate you have not come back to me on where you see the campaign but thought i'd illustrate my point anyway. I don't usually watch question time but I caught tonight's. It was a perfect example of where I see the campaign going. On questions about the NHS and rwanda the tory candidate tried very hard to emphasise in a quietly assertive manner the question to his Labour candidate "and what would you do? Do you actually have a plan?" It's a challenge and a trap and it's the way I see the campaign continuing. It is a fair question on a campaign trail though. You generally do need to have a policies of your own in the run up to an election. Starmer doesn’t have to do much at the moment as the Tories have basically given him a massive lead by default, but at some point he’s going to have to answer how he’d stop the boat crossings and improve the health service Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
