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pete

Is legal action the only recourse?

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If us or any team we should be relegated without the PL or EFL season is not played to a finish could recourse be an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport? Reading the code below is seems this may be a possibility if the PL or EFL have agreed parties may appeal to CAS.  Unsure if this is the case however would seem to apply not necessary to conclude any legal action prior to applying. 

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Code_2019__EN_.pd 

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1 hour ago, pete said:

If us or any team we should be relegated without the PL or EFL season is not played to a finish ....

Do we still have the Championship trophy? If they promote from the EFL w/o completing their fixtures I say we keep it... 

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37 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Do we still have the Championship trophy? If they promote from the EFL w/o completing their fixtures I say we keep it... 

Or give Leeds 35/46 ths  of it, whatever proportion of the season they actually play. 

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Just now, wcorkcanary said:

Or give Leeds 35/46 ths  of it, whatever proportion of the season they actually play. 

Better be the top 35ths then as they haven't earned the rest so shouldn't have their name on it 😂

I'll await the abuse......🤔

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10 hours ago, pete said:

If us or any team we should be relegated without the PL or EFL season is not played to a finish could recourse be an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport? Reading the code below is seems this may be a possibility if the PL or EFL have agreed parties may appeal to CAS.  Unsure if this is the case however would seem to apply not necessary to conclude any legal action prior to applying. 

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Code_2019__EN_.pd 

Speaking to a mate in Scotland, apparently Hearts have started legal proceeding regarding their relagation. So I would suggest the same would happen down south. You can't promote and relegate clubs off the pitch, in my opinion. Best way forward would be to null and void the season. 

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2 hours ago, City fan said:

Speaking to a mate in Scotland, apparently Hearts have started legal proceeding regarding their relagation. So I would suggest the same would happen down south. You can't promote and relegate clubs off the pitch, in my opinion. Best way forward would be to null and void the season. 

Geez I wonder why you think null and voiding a season that is 80% done is the best way forward. 🤔🤔

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3 minutes ago, Cyan said:

Geez I wonder why you think null and voiding a season that is 80% done is the best way forward. 🤔🤔

And you're telling me Leeds fans wouldn't say the same thing if Leeds were facing relegation?

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4 minutes ago, DraytonBoy said:

And you're telling me Leeds fans wouldn't say the same thing if Leeds were facing relegation?

Can't speak for all Leeds fans but yeah sure if null and void was on the table in such circumstances I'd go for it. But I wouldn't pretend it was the fairest or most honest option as quite a few on here claim, just the option that would save our skin. 

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3 hours ago, Cyan said:

Geez I wonder why you think null and voiding a season that is 80% done is the best way forward. 🤔🤔

I wonder why you don't. 

 

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Can't speak for all Leeds fans but yeah sure if null and void was on the table in such circumstances I'd go for it. But I wouldn't pretend it was the fairest or most honest option as quite a few on here claim, just the option that would save our skin. 

You are Dominic Cummings and I claim my fiver.

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4 hours ago, Cyan said:

Can't speak for all Leeds fans but yeah sure if null and void was on the table in such circumstances I'd go for it. But I wouldn't pretend it was the fairest or most honest option as quite a few on here claim, just the option that would save our skin. 

Fundamentally null & void is no more or less fair or honest than PPG or just finishing the season here. You can make convincing arguments both for and against both.

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14 minutes ago, king canary said:

Fundamentally null & void is no more or less fair or honest than PPG or just finishing the season here. You can make convincing arguments both for and against both.

I think its fairrer because:

1. I would argue it accords with the current rules under which the competitions started;

2. Its in line with the rules as to what happens if a match is abandoned; and

3. It does not involve a contrived or made up conclusion to the league placings which awards honours/benefits to clubs who have not actually won anything yet or punishes clubs who could still save themselves.

I think people confuse the word unfortunate with unfair here. Null and voiding is unlucky or unfortunate for certain clubs but its not unfair. PPG is unfair and inequitable. 

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

Fundamentally null & void is no more or less fair or honest than PPG or just finishing the season here. You can make convincing arguments both for and against both.

That's the problem, I guess. There are legitimate reasons why any of those options could be seen 'fair', as well as legitimate reasons why they may be seen 'unfair'.

When I look through all the options null & void does seem the 'least' unfair but I can't promise i'd be saying that if we weren't in our situation, because we are, and I can't be unbiased, because naturally I am!

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Tranmere are now proposing this for league 1.

Hard to tell without seeing the tables calculated using this method but you wonder whether they might get enough support for it if nobody extra gets relegated and more teams get in the playoffs.

i have a horrible feeling the sc*m might scrape into an expanded playoffs if that’s what is proposed but I find that element of the proposal a bit hard to decipher. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Cyan said:

Can't speak for all Leeds fans but yeah sure if null and void was on the table in such circumstances I'd go for it. But I wouldn't pretend it was the fairest or most honest option as quite a few on here claim, just the option that would save our skin. 

Let's say last season you didn't fall apart and over a 46 game season beat us to promotion and earned the right to play a season in the PL. How would you feel if the season after you were 29 games into the PL season nowhere near mathematically relegated and we were top two Championship, nowhere near mathematically promoted and you were going to potentially lose your place to us on some BS PPG predicted table. You would be shafted out of finishing the season you worked so hard for to a team that hasn't gotten close to crossing the line yet in a volatile league where form and results can change like the wind. 

 

We came from behind a larger deficit (7 points from safety) by this stage in our 2005 Pl campaign to take it to the last day, needing only a point to stay up, Leicester came from an even bigger deficit to stay up then win the league the following season in 2016. You looked to be for all the world going up by this stage last season but you choked and Sheff Utd deserved to go up ahead of you because of their form over the games that we have yet to play this season. To decide anything as important as promotion on PPG at this stage of the season is farcical. You haven't yet earned promotion, even if our season concludes and we finish bottom you or any other team from the Championship shouldn't be promoted unless you earn your place over a full season like we did. You would feel exactly the same if you were in our position. 

Edited by Christoph Stiepermann
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Let's say last season you didn't fall apart and over a 46 game season beat us to promotion and earned the right to play a season in the PL. How would you feel if the season after you were 29 games into the PL season nowhere near mathematically relegated and we were top two Championship, nowhere near mathematically promoted and you were going to potentially lose your place to us on some BS PPG predicted table. You would be shafted out of finishing the season you worked so hard for to a team that hasn't gotten close to crossing the line yet in a volatile league where form and results can change like the wind. 

 

We came from behind a larger deficit (7 points from safety) by this stage in our 2005 Pl campaign to take it to the last day, needing only a point to stay up, Leicester came from an even bigger deficit to stay up then win the league the following season in 2016. You looked to be for all the world going up by this stage last season but you choked and Sheff Utd deserved to go up ahead of you because of their form over the games that we have yet to play this season. To decide anything as important as promotion on PPG at this stage of the season is farcical. You haven't yet earned promotion, even if our season concludes and we finish bottom you or any other team from the Championship shouldn't be promoted unless you earn your place over a full season like we did. You would feel exactly the same if you were in our position. 

I wouldn't be hiding behind hilarious  'null and void is the only proper, decent, ethical moral alternative'  that I keep reading on here I

I'd be admitting null and void is the option that saves our skin so let's take it. I'd be honest about it.

I mean Null and Void the only fair option. What a pile of bull. Wiping out well over 1,000 games, countless hours and monies spent by thousands of people. Just expunge the 7 months hard work so a couple of teams can keep their little noses in the premiership trough for an extra 12 months. Oh, very ethical, very moral 

PPG for promotion farcical? Nope I don't think so. We same as WBA have made it clear we want to play the games but if it is taken out of our hands then that is fair enough especially if it is what the majority agree on. Norwich don't like it, who cares?  

This season is quite a bit different from last. Then we were lying 2nd with Sheff Utd on a great run of form and breathing down our necks. They never let up, we bottled it. This season it is us who are on a great run of form 7 clear of 3rd not 1 or 2 points and the 3rd place team has shown little consistency. 

As far as I'm concerned if they decide on PPG then we fully deserve it. But I would say that....

You are way off the mark on the last point though. If after 38 games in the Premiership we finished bottom 3 I wouldn't be pathetically, desperately clinging to the ' they never finished their season' crap. Utterly irrelevant what the EFL do. If we finished bottom 3 we would deserve to go down. As will you if that is where you end up. 

Edited by Cyan

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5 hours ago, Cyan said:

If after 38 games in the Premiership we finished bottom 3 I wouldn't be pathetically, desperately clinging to the ' they never finished their season' crap. Utterly irrelevant what the EFL do. If we finished bottom 3 we would deserve to go down. As will you if that is where you end up. 

Who said we don't deserve to go down if we finish bottom 3 after 38 games?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Cyan said:

As far as I'm concerned if they decide on PPG then we fully deserve it. But I would say that..

That sounds a bit desperate to be honest - by definition you couldn't "fully deserve it", as that would clearly involve actually finishing the season as originally intended. I don't know any fan in the country who would suggest being gifted a title based on an 80% finished season is equivalent to slogging it out over the full 46 matches.

Nobody can deny you are in pole position at the moment, but IMO it would still be gifting you the title if you don't get over the line for whatever reason. No doubt you would be the most "deserving" team on overall form to date, but that's not really the point of winning a Championship is it?

PPG is an absolutely abysmal method of deciding a season that quite literally favours the top couple of teams (and perhaps an odd team down the bottom with a game in hand), but can result in impossible points totals. It doesn't even try and take into account the multitude of factors that would influence the probability of a team getting a result (opposition form/league position, home/away, amongst many others). It is frankly embarrassing to me that some of the football governing bodies in this country would even consider it a viable method.

You can talk about the injustice of the top two being deprived of their promotion if we don't use PPG, and the wiping out of countless hours of games, blah blah blah - but this also applies to those teams who stand to be relegated from the Championship who would be deprived of the right to earn their own places in the league next season, and to those in third or fourth who would still believe they have a shout of finishing in the top two.

I don't think anybody would argue that if both the EPL and EFL play out their seasons, irregardless of whether this is behind closed doors, whoever finishes in the promotion/relegation positions deserve their fate. That certainly wasn't Webber's point if that is the straw-man argument you are trying to invent. Try and take the fact I am a Norwich fan, and you are a Leeds fan, out of the equation and it is absolutely clear that PPG would be a dreadful method of settling the leagues, and totally against the integrity of the sport.
 

Edited by Ian
Fix grammar

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41 minutes ago, dickleburgh said:

Who said we don't deserve to go down if we finish bottom 3 after 38 games?

Well Christoph for one. Says even if you finish bottom we shouldn't be promoted if we don't complete the season. Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick and he means he is happy enough for 3 down but no promotion in those circumstances? A 17 team Prem and 27 team champ next season. If that is what he meant then fair enough.

 

Na I don't think he or Webber for that matter meant that at all.

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1 minute ago, Ian said:

That sounds a bit desperate to be honest - by definition you couldn't "fully deserve it", as that would clearly involve actually finishing the season as originally intended. I don't know any fan in the country who would suggest being gifted a title based on an 80% finished season is equivalent to slogging it out over the full 46 matches.

Nobody can deny you are in pole position at the moment, but IMO it would still be gifting you the title if you don't get over the line for whatever reason. No doubt you would be the most "deserving" team on overall form to date, but that's not really the point of winning a Championship is it?

PPG is an absolutely abysmal method of deciding a season that quite literally only favours the top couple of teams. It can result in impossible points totals, and doesn't even try and take into account the multitude of factors that would influence the probability of a team getting a result (opposition form/league position, home/away, amongst many others). It is frankly embarrassing to me that some of the football governing bodies in this country would even consider it a viable method.

You can talk about the injustice of the top two being deprived of their promotion if we don't use PPG, and the wiping out of countless hours of games, blah blah blah - but this also applies to those teams who stand to be relegated from the Championship who would be deprived of the right to earn their own places in the league next season, and to those in third or fourth who would still believe they have a shout of finishing in the top two.

I don't think anybody would argue that if both the EPL and EFL play out their seasons, irregardless of whether this is behind closed doors, whoever finishes in the promotion/relegation positions deserve their fate. That certainly wasn't Webber's point if that is the straw-man argument you are trying to invent. Try and take the fact I am a Norwich fan, and you are a Leeds fan, out of the equation and it is absolutely clear that PPG would be a dreadful method of settling the leagues, and totally against the integrity of the sport.
 

So true.

If Leeds weren't about to benefit from PPG they would have a different speech but respect to Cyan for being honest, I've read so many comments on Twitter by Leeds fans who claim that they want to play out the season and then in the next breathe talk about PPG being great.

The problem with any solution is that it will upset someone as some will benefit and some will lose, my issue with it is that games played to date only tell part of the story, ie to get to that point. 

The season has to be played out to get a 'fair' result and reading some of the legal stuff in this thread and no matter what anyone thinks, PPG does not guarantee that Leeds will be promoted as it's way more complex than that.

I have said this before and it think it's still relevant, there is a reason that the EFL are forcing the point about finishing the season and that's because they need to to ensure promotion can take place.

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7 minutes ago, Ian said:

That sounds a bit desperate to be honest - by definition you couldn't "fully deserve it", as that would clearly involve actually finishing the season as originally intended. I don't know any fan in the country who would suggest being gifted a title based on an 80% finished season is equivalent to slogging it out over the full 46 matches.

Nobody can deny you are in pole position at the moment, but IMO it would still be gifting you the title if you don't get over the line for whatever reason. No doubt you would be the most "deserving" team on overall form to date, but that's not really the point of winning a Championship is it?

PPG is an absolutely abysmal method of deciding a season that quite literally favours the top couple of teams (and perhaps an odd team down the bottom with a game in hand), but can result in impossible points totals. It doesn't even try and take into account the multitude of factors that would influence the probability of a team getting a result (opposition form/league position, home/away, amongst many others). It is frankly embarrassing to me that some of the football governing bodies in this country would even consider it a viable method.

You can talk about the injustice of the top two being deprived of their promotion if we don't use PPG, and the wiping out of countless hours of games, blah blah blah - but this also applies to those teams who stand to be relegated from the Championship who would be deprived of the right to earn their own places in the league next season, and to those in third or fourth who would still believe they have a shout of finishing in the top two.

I don't think anybody would argue that if both the EPL and EFL play out their seasons, irregardless of whether this is behind closed doors, whoever finishes in the promotion/relegation positions deserve their fate. That certainly wasn't Webber's point if that is the straw-man argument you are trying to invent. Try and take the fact I am a Norwich fan, and you are a Leeds fan, out of the equation and it is absolutely clear that PPG would be a dreadful method of settling the leagues, and totally against the integrity of the sport.
 

As would completely null and voiding a season that is 80% done. 

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Well Christoph for one. Says even if you finish bottom we shouldn't be promoted if we don't complete the season. Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick and he means he is happy enough for 3 down but no promotion in those circumstances? A 17 team Prem and 27 team champ next season. If that is what he meant then fair enough.

 

Na I don't think he or Webber for that matter meant that at all.

You know full well what he means.
It has nothing to do with football, politics, PPG or anything. Its just that everybody hates Leeds. More than Cummings in fact.

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...both seasons look like starting and finishing (CH & PL) so hopefully it will all be clearer. To truncate at this point is a nonsense. Wouldn't want that as a Leeds fan, nor be relegated as it is for us. Both teams need to do their stuff. 

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Between Leeds and Liverpool, there have been enough tears to float a battleship and even when both teams are on the verge, not only does the world hate them, but a virus does as well.

There is still a slight chance of null and void and they don't like it up 'em

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