UEFA SYSTEM

[baldy09 160]

We could be relegated soon if the suggestion via UEFA = suggesting Premier/league clubs etc consider the sporting merit model  which each club are based on average points per game 

[JF 694]

5 minutes ago, baldy09 said:

We could be relegated soon if the suggestion via UEFA = suggesting Premier/league clubs etc consider the sporting merit model  which each club are based on average points per game 

 No it’s only a recommendation based on European positions this journalist is suggesting the PL will end on points per game with no relegation 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by JF

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

When it comes to Uefa is not going to have any effective say over how any of the major European leagues sort out this season.

[JF 694]

So having just looked through it Uefa have basically put out a long winded announcement on the circumstances how leagues can cancel. It appears that if leagues null and void then they won’t get the European places for the following season. Plenty of speculation on how the PL will conclude if matches can’t be played but the common opinion of journalists on twitter ( yeah I know ) is that the PL will finish on a points per game basis with no promotion and no relegation as the PL and Efl are different entities 

Edited April 23, 2020 by JF

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

8 minutes ago, JF said:

So having just looked through it Uefa have basically put out a long winded announcement on the circumstances how leagues can cancel. It appears that if leagues null and void then they won’t get the European places for the following season. Plenty of speculation on how the PL will conclude if matches can’t be played but the common opinion of journalists on twitter ( yeah I know ) is that the PL will finish on a points per game basis with no promotion and no relegation as the PL and Efl are different entities 

It is riddled with loopholes and get-outs, and in practice is unenforceable.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,854]

2 hours ago, JF said:

So having just looked through it Uefa have basically put out a long winded announcement on the circumstances how leagues can cancel. It appears that if leagues null and void then they won’t get the European places for the following season. Plenty of speculation on how the PL will conclude if matches can’t be played but the common opinion of journalists on twitter ( yeah I know ) is that the PL will finish on a points per game basis with no promotion and no relegation as the PL and Efl are different entities 

That would be utterly brilliant if true! I'd probably be more delighted about the meltdown in Leeds than our own survival.

[ricardo 7,397]

Leagues will do what suits them best UEFA is a busted flush on this.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,854]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Leagues will do what suits them best UEFA is a busted flush on this.

Unfortunately, with UEFA's threat of not allowing teams from countries who don't finish the season into the Champions League, they could influence things. Some countries may feel pressured into finishing it by any means necessary.

[Bill 1,788]

10 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Unfortunately, with UEFA's threat of not allowing teams from countries who don't finish the season into the Champions League, they could influence things. Some countries may feel pressured into finishing it by any means necessary.

a quarter of the TV and sponsors money will decide what happens - no PL club can survive with that loss

[JF 694]

44 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Leagues will do what suits them best UEFA is a busted flush on this.

I personally think today’s Uefa announcement has ended the null and void case as the big clubs and PL will want champions league representation. If it can’t get completed I think it finishes as it is with no relegation 

[sgncfc 1,253]

Three thoughts:

1. Uefa have emphasised "sporting merit" to qualify for their tournaments - I agree that now completely rules out null and void (even as the last option) and pushes EFL toward cancellation as is, if no completion possible.

2. That doesn't necessarily mean no relegation or promotion. If they go with average points to date that would be a legally defendable position if they get sued - it's fair in that everyone is being treated the same and it is based on exact performance to date. Probably only the relegated teams would be seriously miffed enough to disagree, so the threat of legal action by those 3 clubs would be serious.

3. I believe that promotion from the EFL to the EPL is by invitation and it has to be confirmed by the EPL at their AGM. To date, that has been a given, but if that legal action in 2. is worrying the EPL could simply not invite any EFL teams to join their league and keep the existing 20 clubs as members. I don't believe that Leeds, West Brom or anyone else would have a case with any merit on the grounds of "not being invited", particularly as the season isn't finished. If the EFL took action they might risk losing the promotion option entirely.

But everything is dependent on what the TV companies decide to do with their money.

[Capt. Pants 4,276]

I'm coming round to thinking null and void is looking unlikely now. There may well be a fudge to conclude this season's ECL places but getting this season out the way at least creates more flexibility for the start of next.

Money talks. TV companies want the ECL to happen, top clubs depend on it. 

[JF 694]

7 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Three thoughts:

1. Uefa have emphasised "sporting merit" to qualify for their tournaments - I agree that now completely rules out null and void (even as the last option) and pushes EFL toward cancellation as is, if no completion possible.

2. That doesn't necessarily mean no relegation or promotion. If they go with average points to date that would be a legally defendable position if they get sued - it's fair in that everyone is being treated the same and it is based on exact performance to date. Probably only the relegated teams would be seriously miffed enough to disagree, so the threat of legal action by those 3 clubs would be serious.

3. I believe that promotion from the EFL to the EPL is by invitation and it has to be confirmed by the EPL at their AGM. To date, that has been a given, but if that legal action in 2. is worrying the EPL could simply not invite any EFL teams to join their league and keep the existing 20 clubs as members. I don't believe that Leeds, West Brom or anyone else would have a case with any merit on the grounds of "not being invited", particularly as the season isn't finished. If the EFL took action they might risk losing the promotion option entirely.

But everything is dependent on what the TV companies decide to do with their money.

As pointed out on twitter from this sports journalist dale Johnson. (There has been a lot of discussion on there with him and Leeds fans about it.) To relegate three teams from the PL on ppg basis would require a vote of PL teams voting to relegate 3 members who all own an equal share, it would cause them a legal nightmare so they will go with ppg and no promotion or relegation unless there is an absolute water tight case from the championship clubs that should be promoted, in that case they would have to try and accommodate them in a bigger league 

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

8 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Three thoughts:

1. Uefa have emphasised "sporting merit" to qualify for their tournaments - I agree that now completely rules out null and void (even as the last option) and pushes EFL toward cancellation as is, if no completion possible.

2. That doesn't necessarily mean no relegation or promotion. If they go with average points to date that would be a legally defendable position if they get sued - it's fair in that everyone is being treated the same and it is based on exact performance to date. Probably only the relegated teams would be seriously miffed enough to disagree, so the threat of legal action by those 3 clubs would be serious.

3. I believe that promotion from the EFL to the EPL is by invitation and it has to be confirmed by the EPL at their AGM. To date, that has been a given, but if that legal action in 2. is worrying the EPL could simply not invite any EFL teams to join their league and keep the existing 20 clubs as members. I don't believe that Leeds, West Brom or anyone else would have a case with any merit on the grounds of "not being invited", particularly as the season isn't finished. If the EFL took action they might risk losing the promotion option entirely.

But everything is dependent on what the TV companies decide to do with their money.

I would question some of these conclusions. Uefa has no power to force national leagues to do anything. It has the theoretical sanction of refusing clubs entry into the European club competitions but would be highly unlikely to use it to exclude the likes of Man City or Juventus or Real Madrid, not least for fear of those clubs setting up their own competitions.

A much more relevant consideration for those leagues would be the threat of legal action from clubs if for example an attempt was made to relegate sides based on some Uefa-approved points formula for imagining final placings that had never been agreed before the season started.

So (1) I don’t believe null and void is off the table. If the UK government in effect forced it on football, as seems to be the case in The Netherlands, Uefa would not raise any objection, that counting as force majeure, and if it was a decision by the football authorities that would call Uefa’s bluff.

As to (2), I believe any artificial points calculation to determine final placings that was used to relegate sides would be hit with legal action, and with a very fair chance of succeeding.

With (3) the EPL would have a hard time trying to justify not ‘inviting’ the top sides from the Championship to be promoted, based on what has happened every season since the EPL was invented. Pretty much any solution to this mess (even null and voiding, if a decision by the football authorities as opposed to force majeure by the government) is likely to invite legal action but that would strike me as having a greater chance of succeeding than any other.

The solution that would work all the way through the pyramid and which would reduce the number of actions/their seriousness would be if the season was frozen and clubs were promoted from the automatic slots but there was no relegation. Then the only clubs with a grievance and a potential case would be those in the play-off places. It has other advantages (the season would not have been a total wash-out) but with the drawback of leaving the EPL with 22 clubs for next season.

With the TV money, recent reports suggest the UK companies, as opposed to those with overseas rights, will not try to claw back what they are owed, to help with their bargaining position for next season. So instead of clubs having to fork out around £760m one estimate put the figure at only £150m.

[Branston Pickle 3,683]

I think it is the clubs and leagues that will still decide what happens - despite the positioning of UEFA, European competition without at least 2 of the big leagues being represented (England, Germany, Spain, Italy, possibly France) would be diminished to the extent of being almost worthless.  If it included several countries you could easily get the big clubs (ECA if it’s still called that?) breaking away and forming their own tournament.

[Branston Pickle 3,683]

24 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The solution that would work all the way through the pyramid and which would reduce the number of actions/their seriousness would be if the season was frozen and clubs were promoted from the automatic slots but there was no relegation. Then the only clubs with a grievance and a potential case would be those in the play-off places. It has other advantages (the season would not have been a total wash-out) but with the drawback of leaving the EPL with 22 clubs for next season.

 

Pretty much agree with this - the idea that they can’t fit in the extra games is a poor one.  It could easily fit, even if it were at the expense of either the League Cup or replays in FA Cup earlier rounds for one season.

[Pugin 601]

9 hours ago, sgncfc said:

 

1. Uefa have emphasised "sporting merit" to qualify for their tournaments - I agree that now completely rules out null and void (even as the last option) and pushes EFL toward cancellation as is, if no completion possible.

 

To my way of thinking, the only difference between 'cancellation as is' and 'null and void' is a matter of semantics.

As far as the Canaries are concerned, voiding all results, appearance data, and goals scored would be totally undesirable. No one could want to see Teemu deprived of his Premier League goals, or Cantwell's six goals taken away from him.

Having previously been hoping for 'null and void', UEFA's statement has helped to show that 'completion as is' is now the desirable outcome, with no promotion or relegation. It could become reality as early as the first week in June. Fingers crossed.  

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

21 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

PurpleCanary posted: The solution that would work all the way through the pyramid and which would reduce the number of actions/their seriousness would be if the season was frozen and clubs were promoted from the automatic slots but there was no relegation. Then the only clubs with a grievance and a potential case would be those in the play-off places. It has other advantages (the season would not have been a total wash-out) but with the drawback of leaving the EPL with 22 clubs for next season.

---

Pretty much agree with this - the idea that they can’t fit in the extra games is a poor one.  It could easily fit, even if it were at the expense of either the League Cup or replays in FA Cup earlier rounds for one season.

Just to add, I think if there is one certainty in all this it is that Leagues One and Two will never be played to a finish, and that could well be the case with the Championship. So how do you relegate teams from a league or leagues that have played to a finish to leagues that have not? I can see the point from the EPL's perspective, that what it cares about is sorting out the money-spinning European places at the top of the league, so it would be happy to have no relegation.

[ricardo 7,397]

51 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Just to add, I think if there is one certainty in all this it is that Leagues One and Two will never be played to a finish, and that could well be the case with the Championship. So how do you relegate teams from a league or leagues that have played to a finish to leagues that have not? I can see the point from the EPL's perspective, that what it cares about is sorting out the money-spinning European places at the top of the league, so it would be happy to have no relegation.

An exellent point PC.

[JF 694]

This could be the difference on if we as a club get through this or not, several journalists are suggesting it may not be financially possible for championship teams to play behind closed doors next season and that leagues are effectively mothballed and operations closed down until crowds can return again 

[nutty nigel 7,607]

So are the PL going to play behind closed doors next season?

[JF 694]

19 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So are the PL going to play behind closed doors next season?

More viable apparently as they are not so reliant on match day income where the majority of the championship are. Who knows how this is going to sort itself out but at the moment it appears to be address one problem at a time 

edit: although there remains the possibility that sky and bt may want a rebate on the PL deal for an inferior product I guess???

not to mention that politicians have said they when it returns it should be available on free to air tv, presumably to stop people gathering around houses to watch it. Sky and Bt won’t go for that I doubt 

Edited April 24, 2020 by JF

[Capt. Pants 4,276]

Plus I'll need a refund on my season ticket if the ground is closed.

[nutty nigel 7,607]

6 minutes ago, JF said:

More viable apparently as they are not so reliant on match day income where the majority of the championship are. Who knows how this is going to sort itself out but at the moment it appears to be address one problem at a time 

edit: although there remains the possibility that sky and bt may want a rebate on the PL deal for an inferior product I guess???

not to mention that politicians have said they when it returns it should be available on free to air tv, presumably to stop people gathering around houses to watch it. Sky and Bt won’t go for that I doubt 

I have no idea how they will ever get this sorted. I can only speak for me and I actually hate the idea of behind closed doors and would sooner go without. The fans in the grounds are the soul of the clubs. You also make a good point about fans congregating to watch on TV. And with tv available on phones etc many will congregate outside the stadiums to produce their own crowd noise. I know that would be very dangerous and wrong but so is stealing their game.

It opens up some interesting possibilities. I suppose they could board up all the stands, paint murals of fans, and play crowd noise. Trouble is they wouldn't have a clue what to play. You'd have to have noise from happy clappers and moaning minnies. They'd have to play "you don't know what you're doing" both when the ref gives a rubbish decision and when the manager makes the wrong subs. Sky couldn't be put in charge of that because they have no idea about football fans. For them the game only started in 1992 and is supposed to be watched on TV anyway.

**** I'm getting depressed. TV is for EastEnders and Corrie.

[nutty nigel 7,607]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

I have no idea how they will ever get this sorted. I can only speak for me and I actually hate the idea of behind closed doors and would sooner go without. The fans in the grounds are the soul of the clubs. You also make a good point about fans congregating to watch on TV. And with tv available on phones etc many will congregate outside the stadiums to produce their own crowd noise. I know that would be very dangerous and wrong but so is stealing their game.

It opens up some interesting possibilities. I suppose they could board up all the stands, paint murals of fans, and play crowd noise. Trouble is they wouldn't have a clue what to play. You'd have to have noise from happy clappers and moaning minnies. They'd have to play "you don't know what you're doing" both when the ref gives a rubbish decision and when the manager makes the wrong subs. Sky couldn't be put in charge of that because they have no idea about football fans. For them the game only started in 1992 and is supposed to be watched on TV anyway.

**** I'm getting depressed. TV is for EastEnders and Corrie.

F eck's not allowed now. Let's try duck....

[JF 694]

5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I have no idea how they will ever get this sorted. I can only speak for me and I actually hate the idea of behind closed doors and would sooner go without. The fans in the grounds are the soul of the clubs. You also make a good point about fans congregating to watch on TV. And with tv available on phones etc many will congregate outside the stadiums to produce their own crowd noise. I know that would be very dangerous and wrong but so is stealing their game.

It opens up some interesting possibilities. I suppose they could board up all the stands, paint murals of fans, and play crowd noise. Trouble is they wouldn't have a clue what to play. You'd have to have noise from happy clappers and moaning minnies. They'd have to play "you don't know what you're doing" both when the ref gives a rubbish decision and when the manager makes the wrong subs. Sky couldn't be put in charge of that because they have no idea about football fans. For them the game only started in 1992 and is supposed to be watched on TV anyway.

**** I'm getting depressed. TV is for EastEnders and Corrie.

German fan groups have been looking into the possibility of cardboard cutouts of themselves in the stadia! Great idea.

[nutty nigel 7,607]

Great idea not!

Mind you it might work for those biscuit chasers in the main stand...

[......and Smith must score. 1,359]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

Great idea not!

Mind you it might work for those biscuit chasers in the main stand...

As they all look like Captain Tom Moore it should be easy to rustle up a few thousand prints from somewhere 😋

[TIL 1010 4,789]

3 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

 

It opens up some interesting possibilities. I suppose they could board up all the stands, paint murals of fans, and play crowd noise.

We have already been there, done that Nutty.

[Gromitt 12]

17 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

We have already been there, done that Nutty.

Will the new version have the sky diver behind it as well where they miss the pitch.