Corona Virus main thread

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

4 hours ago, BigFish said:

Seems like Leicester are rejecting a localised lockdown. Government policy in chaos, Hancock humiliated and Johnson's "cluster busting" looks just like a lot of hot air (again)

The mayor of Leicester being interviewed on Newsnight was very pro-lockdown

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

Quite a shambles. Yet, nothing we have not spoken about on this thread. Still, it's damning.

Reminds me of a tweet I saw a few months ago.....

 

This is rather a disrespectful cartoon for people who have a different opinion to you. I thought you were better than this Sonyc. I voted for the current government. Why do you think my hands are unclean?

[Herman 9,765]

Oh no, Rocky is back. What did you get banned for this time? 

[Herman 9,765]

5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

This is rather a disrespectful cartoon for people who have a different opinion to you. I thought you were better than this Sonyc. I voted for the current government. Why do you think my hands are unclean?

 

8 hours ago, Herman said:

This is why Rocky. You thought putting this man in charge of our country was a good idea. Everything about his lack of seriousness was available to you but you still went for it. That is why. 

[Van wink 2,994]

7 hours ago, sonyc said:

I suppose there is no point in anger and personally I just have to revert to the antidote that is music. I just wish I suppose that supporters of this government might come along one day and say "do you know, things aren't quite right". But they don't. 

Sorry for the late evening rant VW! Scala or R3 calls.

Look at the polls. It’s a relatively small number of people who determine the outcome in our first past the post system. Many of those felt they had no realistic choice last time round, when you look at the behaviour of a few even on here who supported the opposition cronies it’s pretty obvious why most decent folk wouldn’t vote for them, but as they are gagged or lose influence the opposition will become more of a realistic option for government. 

[sonyc 5,519]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Look at the polls. It’s a relatively small number of people who determine the outcome in our first past the post system. Many of those felt they had no realistic choice last time round, when you look at the behaviour of a few even on here who supported the opposition cronies it’s pretty obvious why most decent folk wouldn’t vote for them, but as they are gagged or lose influence the opposition will become more of a realistic option for government. 

Maybe they will. There are definite signs of the government being held to account.

In the meantime, my other point concerns just how much malfeasance the supporters of this government will accept without criticism or a word. Are we such an accepting society (or asleep) that we put up with increasingly poor governance. It's a rhetorical question I suppose. And those more of the right wing persuasion will simply see my question as loaded. Yet, would i be critical of a different government managing the way this one is. Certainly the answer is yes, even if I voted for  them. In fact I'd feel outraged and very let down. I expect more so because the values and trust I might have expected would be attached.

[sonyc 5,519]

7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

This is rather a disrespectful cartoon for people who have a different opinion to you. I thought you were better than this Sonyc. I voted for the current government. Why do you think my hands are unclean?

If you hadn't read my reply to Van wink RTB then you wouldn't have seen a longer explanation (it was a long rant after some reflection on the state of things). I was bemoaning the situation as I saw it that government supporters rarely (ever?) seem critical of their own party's behaviours. 

It was a provocative post. I accept that. Yet I also accept lots of other stuff in life....like how I might have been a better father, husband, son, employee, boss  for example. I think back and reflect, become self critical. It's part of self awareness isn't it.

Why do we not have a politics like this? People being far more accountable for actions? 

You'll have to excuse my naivety if this point doesn't make sense and maybe I am guilty of your chide that I'm not "better than this".

To say nothing at this time for me feels wrong. What is happening and more so, HOW it is happening ought to be called out. Our politics is divisive. And if we are uncritically accepting of lies and things that are presented to us, we all have a responsibility. We don't have clean hands then do we? Perhaps you feel everything is fine.

[Van wink 2,994]

33 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Maybe they will. There are definite signs of the government being held to account.

In the meantime, my other point concerns just how much malfeasance the supporters of this government will accept without criticism or a word. Are we such an accepting society (or asleep) that we put up with increasingly poor governance. It's a rhetorical question I suppose. And those more of the right wing persuasion will simply see my question as loaded. Yet, would i be critical of a different government managing the way this one is. Certainly the answer is yes, even if I voted for  them. In fact I'd feel outraged and very let down. I expect more so because the values and trust I might have expected would be attached.

Have you not seen criticism from the right leaning press?

[sonyc 5,519]

3 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Have you not seen criticism from the right leaning press?

Not a lot. Two or three articles when deaths were in the high hundreds. Even the Mail were critical then I think. Nothing of a groundswell. Do you think there is?

I'm speaking VW of the broader base.

Yet, perhaps what I'd be far happier with are forms of coalition where different government priorities are debated seriously. Some green issues might get pushed forward, some business growth sectors might be promoted. Lots of argument, counter argument, evidence. More boring? Possibly.

Yet society is complex and dynamic, solutions will need to be too. Ireland look like they may be managing to try it which will be interesting. No doubt in the absence of a government in a pandemic, it has forced collaboration.

What we're getting is glib campaigning ... ideologues. Testing and tracing is one example. If it was working so well and world beating then why should Leicester need to be locked down? 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

49 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Not a lot. Two or three articles when deaths were in the high hundreds. Even the Mail were critical then I think. Nothing of a groundswell. Do you think there is?

I'm speaking VW of the broader base.

Yet, perhaps what I'd be far happier with are forms of coalition where different government priorities are debated seriously. Some green issues might get pushed forward, some business growth sectors might be promoted. Lots of argument, counter argument, evidence. More boring? Possibly.

Yet society is complex and dynamic, solutions will need to be too. Ireland look like they may be managing to try it which will be interesting. No doubt in the absence of a government in a pandemic, it has forced collaboration.

What we're getting is glib campaigning ... ideologues. Testing and tracing is one example. If it was working so well and world beating then why should Leicester need to be locked down? 

Read the Telegraph and you will see lots of criticism of both Johnson and the Conservatives from the beginning of the pandemic. I believe they have made some huge mistakes in handling Corona virus and BLM too. 

But criticism has to be based on the facts and there is too much comment based on lazy rhetoric, the same old boring nonsense ladled out on every occasion without any thought applied to what is being said. 

Perhaps it will change under Starmer, he seems to consider his speech more than those around him, I will give him that. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

But criticism has to be based on the facts and there is too much comment based on lazy rhetoric, the same old boring nonsense ladled out on every occasion without any thought applied to what is being said. 

Rather like many of your posts about Corbyn and Marxism.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Not a lot. Two or three articles when deaths were in the high hundreds. Even the Mail were critical then I think. Nothing of a groundswell. Do you think there is?

I'm speaking VW of the broader base.

Yet, perhaps what I'd be far happier with are forms of coalition where different government priorities are debated seriously. Some green issues might get pushed forward, some business growth sectors might be promoted. Lots of argument, counter argument, evidence. More boring? Possibly.

Yet society is complex and dynamic, solutions will need to be too. Ireland look like they may be managing to try it which will be interesting. No doubt in the absence of a government in a pandemic, it has forced collaboration.

What we're getting is glib campaigning ... ideologues. Testing and tracing is one example. If it was working so well and world beating then why should Leicester need to be locked down? 

 

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

 

What we're getting is glib campaigning ... ideologues. Testing and tracing is one example. If it was working so well and world beating then why should Leicester need to be locked down? 

I thought it was understood that the strategy has changed to dealing with localised outbreaks while allowing restrictions to be lifted elsewhere. Test and tracing is the method to identify where local spikes occur. 

An.obviously intelligent guy such as yourself understands this, yet you feign surprise when it happens. 

Surely its better to direct criticism to where it is deserved, such as what is happening in care homes

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But criticism has to be based on the facts and there is too much comment based on lazy rhetoric, the same old boring nonsense ladled out on every occasion without any thought applied to what is being said. 

Rather like many of your posts about Corbyn and Marxism.

Corbyn is without doubt a hardline Marxist and he's quite proud of his credentials.as well. I think he'd be rather upset knowing that fact going unrecognised. Still, he's history now and will soon be forgotten. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Still, he's history now and will soon be forgotten. 

Tell that to Jools

[sonyc 5,519]

41 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

 

I thought it was understood that the strategy has changed to dealing with localised outbreaks while allowing restrictions to be lifted elsewhere. Test and tracing is the method to identify where local spikes occur. 

An.obviously intelligent guy such as yourself understands this, yet you feign surprise when it happens. 

Surely its better to direct criticism to where it is deserved, such as what is happening in care homes

Fair enough, care homes pandemic management has been negligent one might argue, even agree. It's the empty rhetoric that accompanies it that angers me ("we've had a protective ring round").

Likewise in the track and trace system I AM surprised (its not feigned) because all I've heard is how well it's doing ("we will have a world beating") ....all just emptiness and obfuscation. The reality falls far short. If they'd just said, "we are new to this, we will learn from scratch" etc etc then I would cut some slack. It's dishonest.

My main point to VW was how far anyone has to go before they face repurcussions. What does one have to do or say wrong before there is a reckoning? Are politicians not meant to provide a kind of moral leadership that sets a tone?

I realise this is such a loaded debate to have and we will probably not agree.

My rant is over. I do realise life is unfair by the way. It doesn't help to express my feelings about it. If only for the fact that it ultimately serves no purpose at all does it! Back to my introvert hole where I can be happiest.

This thread works best when there is focus on more intellectual articles rather than ones where feelings, world views and anger come into it. And by the way RTB I'm not particularly intelligent, just a normal Joe.

[Van wink 2,994]

9 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Fair enough, care homes pandemic management has been negligent one might argue, even agree. It's the empty rhetoric that accompanies it that angers me ("we've had a protective ring round").

Likewise in the track and trace system I AM surprised (its not feigned) because all I've heard is how well it's doing ("we will have a world beating") ....all just emptiness and obfuscation. The reality falls far short. If they'd just said, "we are new to this, we will learn from scratch" etc etc then I would cut some slack. It's dishonest.

My main point to VW was how far anyone has to go before they face repurcussions. What does one have to do or say wrong before there is a reckoning? Are politicians not meant to provide a kind of moral leadership that sets a tone?

I realise this is such a loaded debate to have and we will probably not agree.

My rant is over. I do realise life is unfair by the way. It doesn't help to express my feelings about it. If only for the fact that it ultimately serves no purpose at all does it! Back to my introvert hole where I can be happiest.

This thread works best when there is focus on more intellectual articles rather than ones where feelings, world views and anger come into it. And by the way RTB I'm not particularly intelligent, just a normal Joe.

It’s hard to say whether test track and trace working effectively would have prevented lockdown in Leicester. It’s a combination of the system working properly and compliance by the public. This has obviously been on the radar for sometime, we dont yet know enough ( or at least I don’t ) about how good the response at local and national level has been, it certainly appears that there have been problems with data transfer between national and local agencies.
I come back to the point I have made repeatedly, unlocking with the level of infection we still have in the UK is a huge risk.

[sonyc 5,519]

Just now, Van wink said:

It’s hard to say whether test track and trace working effectively would have prevented lockdown in Leicester. It’s a combination of the system working properly and compliance by the public. This has obviously been on the radar for sometime, we dont yet know enough ( or at least I don’t ) about how good the response at local and national level has been, it certainly appears that there have been problems with data transfer between national and local agencies.
I come back to the point I have made repeatedly, unlocking with the level of infection we still have in the UK is a huge risk.

I've been very tuned in to your words on this matter. I had been feeling some complacency myself 2 weeks ago. The virus very clearly is lurking (perhaps everywhere!). I fear the weekend here and people on the p1ss.

As for the latest story of a flu strain in pigs (China again), that is capable of being transmitted to humans with the capability to become a new pandemic is chilling.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

I've been very tuned in to your words on this matter. I had been feeling some complacency myself 2 weeks ago. The virus very clearly is lurking (perhaps everywhere!). I fear the weekend here and people on the p1ss.

As for the latest story of a flu strain in pigs (China again), that is capable of being transmitted to humans with the capability to become a new pandemic is chilling.

 

If it is a version of Swine Flu, that was less virulent and hardly affected us. Of course if its new then we could be in for trouble

[A Load of Squit 5,164]

Racing at the newly named Lockdown Leicester track goes ahead tonight, here's the card

18:40 The Track, Trace and Forget it Chase

19:00 Hancock really is a Handicap

19:20 The Pointless Patel Pursuit

19:40 The Johnsons Promise (mis)Stakes (Fillies only)

20:00 The Fell at the First Hurdle Handicap

20:20 The nots so Grand Nation(al)

20:40 The Prix de la flattening of the Arc de Coronavirus.

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

6 hours ago, sonyc said:

In the meantime, my other point concerns just how much malfeasance the supporters of this government will accept without criticism or a word. Are we such an accepting society (or asleep) that we put up with increasingly poor governance. It's a rhetorical question I suppose.

Agree with you 100%, and have posted a number of times on the 'other thread' about what I believe in the UK is a record of historically poor governance. So not really a Brexit or virus point at all other than Brexit at the time was just the latest (and possibly most vivid) example of the very poor standard of governance that generally has applied in the UK for quite a while - as Covid is now.

Slightly to my surprise I got very little response other than from Ricardo who thinks FPTP is a fine system, and VW complaining about 'people running the country down' which used to be his goto response when he couldn't be bothered to think up a proper distraction from the obvious failings of the UK government.

But it seems that there is far more interest in specific issues and personalities than the rather broader topic of the general quality of governance, or lack of it, delivered by Westminister and the electoral system, unwritten constitution, unelected Head of State etc, etc etc that underpins it. I would suggest that is the primary reason that such poor governance has gone unchallenged for so long - we like to complain about the government of the day but that's as far as it goes - as a society we don't really give a toss about improving our democracy and governance, we're quite happy to carry on with the two party Buggins' turn system we've known all our lives.

Very sad really 😟

[Barbe bleu 826]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

But it seems that there is far more interest in specific issues and personalities than the rather broader topic of the general quality of governance, or lack of it, delivered by Westminister and the electoral system, unwritten constitution, unelected Head of State etc, etc etc that underpins it.

I'm not sure that we can blame the Queen for covid-19. Her son andrew maybe, but leave Her Maj out of it!

[Herman 9,765]

 

[BigFish 1,987]

23 minutes ago, Herman said:

 

All looking good if you trusr the giv's published figures.....

Eeeeek!

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

8 hours ago, Van wink said:

Have you not seen criticism from the right leaning press?

'Got another 4 hour shift on Tuesday as well, just in case you are interested, 10.00 till 14.00 that one. '

Glad to see you were able to drag yourself away from your selfless toils to post on here M. Crank 😏

[Barbe bleu 826]

51 minutes ago, BigFish said:

All looking good if you trusr the giv's published figures.....

Eeeeek!

 

 

That second graph makes you Wainfleet just how much of this there was knocking around during feb-apr.  If the proportions were similar to today the figures would be huge.

[Herman 9,765]

Why are the keeping it hidden even from people that need to know is the important question.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Pillars of Virtue.

Anyway, they have lied since early March so why stop now.

I would like to know what they got "emphatically right"?

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

'Got another 4 hour shift on Tuesday as well, just in case you are interested, 10.00 till 14.00 that one. '

Glad to see you were able to drag yourself away from your selfless toils to post on here M. Crank 😏

No referrals Billy, still get paid so hardly selfless, just doing what I can to help. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Van wink

[Van wink 2,994]

25 minutes ago, Herman said:

Why are the keeping it hidden even from people that need to know is the important question.

What I really don’t get, or have missed, is why they are not publicising the locations where they think R is rising and infections are increasing. It will give people in those areas the opportunity at least to modify behaviour before they have further restrictions introduced.

[Bill 1,788]

2 minutes ago, Van wink said:

No referrals Billy.

of course, I'm sure we all believe you

.....it’s not as if they has ever been cause to doubt your Paul Nuttall style claims, is there ?