New Labour Leader

[Yellow Fever 3,787]

42 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

JC was absolutely stupid over anti Semitism (and Brexit but that is another topic). He cannot divorce himself from his hatred of Israel's policies and the need to stop British people being anti Semitic against British Jews. If he just said that he finds it difficult to support British Jews who support Israel's policies then I could understand it even though it would still be a watered down apology.

But to allow so many Momentum members, who were his main grass root supporters, to openly make anti semitic statements while representing the Party is the reason he now finds himself yesterdays man. And to say that he doesn't respect or agree with the EHRC findings then he is denying democracy the same way as he accuses SKS of denying him.

These stupid, stupid people have so much to offer but they cannot accept the grey areas of life. And in the end defeat what they set out to achieve. I think Diane Abbot has a good heart but is so enveloped by the belief that she is not taken seriously because she is black and a woman.

Labour has to be very careful if they want to win back the massive group that turned blue because of Brexit. They have to acknowledge that those voters are not too interested in foreign policy and do not believe the UK is racist and owes the world anything. Important to them is finance and conditions. And whoever puts those policies first will win their support.

There is a phrase which is apt I think KG for all those far to the left who despise SKS and the current Labour party and it's more centre left, dare I say electable, polices - 

"Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good"

Sums it up for me. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

6 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

There is a phrase which is apt I think KG for all those far to the left who despise SKS and the current Labour party and it's more centre left, dare I say electable, polices - 

"Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good"

Sums it up for me. 

Trouble is YF, those purporting to be on the far left are more like anarchists. I would consider myself on the left but I certainly don't harbour the opinions of some of that lot. Its tantamount to Bolshevism. We know whats best for you but you aren't intelligent enough to decide for yourself so we will do it for you.

I left the Party because of SKS. I feel he will end up settling for less than he wants. I know life is a compromise but if he aimed a little higher, his compromise position would be equally higher.

[Yellow Fever 3,787]

14 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Trouble is YF, those purporting to be on the far left are more like anarchists. I would consider myself on the left but I certainly don't harbour the opinions of some of that lot. Its tantamount to Bolshevism. We know whats best for you but you aren't intelligent enough to decide for yourself so we will do it for you.

I left the Party because of SKS. I feel he will end up settling for less than he wants. I know life is a compromise but if he aimed a little higher, his compromise position would be equally higher.

KG - I fully respect your position - and would agree in general  - the 'far' left hate SKS more than the Tories it seems!

I would be hopeful that SKS intends generational change - getting shot (or reforming) the HoL is an easy down payment on that without scaring the horses!

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Trouble is YF, those purporting to be on the far left are more like anarchists. I would consider myself on the left but I certainly don't harbour the opinions of some of that lot. Its tantamount to Bolshevism. We know whats best for you but you aren't intelligent enough to decide for yourself so we will do it for you.

I left the Party because of SKS. I feel he will end up settling for less than he wants. I know life is a compromise but if he aimed a little higher, his compromise position would be equally higher.

I've read several of your posts over the years and rarely differ from your opinion. But I do differ on this occasion and think we need to be patient. The simple fact is that if Starmer set out the policies as you and I would like he may lose. The country simply can't afford for the Conservative Party to win the next election, at least not in its current form.  In actual fact we almost certainly need Labour to win the next two elections. That takes us 15 years forward and the political demographic of the country will look very different by that time. You only need to look at voting patterns by age to see that change is coming. The old adage that we move to the right as we get older may have been true once but not any more. The Tories will have to move to the left or they will wither and die. 

So you and I are going to have to cling on for at least 15 years. I wish you luck. I'm going to need it! 

The only thing that could affect this scenario is the return of the loony left. As others have said, they are just as dangerous as the right wing of the Conservative Party and the current opinion polls will be of interest to them. They may quite like the idea of forcing Starmer out once he's won an election for them. 

I listened to a phone in this morning on this very subject. It seems incredible to me that these people dislike Starmer more than they do the Tories but there are an awful lot of them out there. 

 

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

Some fascinating odds here

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

36 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I've read several of your posts over the years and rarely differ from your opinion. But I do differ on this occasion and think we need to be patient. The simple fact is that if Starmer set out the policies as you and I would like he may lose. The country simply can't afford for the Conservative Party to win the next election, at least not in its current form.  In actual fact we almost certainly need Labour to win the next two elections. That takes us 15 years forward and the political demographic of the country will look very different by that time. You only need to look at voting patterns by age to see that change is coming. The old adage that we move to the right as we get older may have been true once but not any more. The Tories will have to move to the left or they will wither and die. 

So you and I are going to have to cling on for at least 15 years. I wish you luck. I'm going to need it! 

The only thing that could affect this scenario is the return of the loony left. As others have said, they are just as dangerous as the right wing of the Conservative Party and the current opinion polls will be of interest to them. They may quite like the idea of forcing Starmer out once he's won an election for them. 

I listened to a phone in this morning on this very subject. It seems incredible to me that these people dislike Starmer more than they do the Tories but there are an awful lot of them out there. 

 

I realise SKS is looking, much like Blair, to distance himself from socialism and hope the Party becomes acceptable to centre and right voters who have voted Tory because they don't trust Labour. Corbyn thought he could roll out popular policies and get to No10. But the only one that mattered at the time was Brexit and he stuttered and stalled.

I am pretty certain that if SKS could leave a little room for one or two policies that would signal he is willing to embrace the left, he would cement his popularity within the Party and make Labour electable.

I would liketo see a revised Clause 4. One that says the intention is to bring water and energy back into public ownership. Those sort of policies, once confirmed, eould be a wonderful olive branch to the left and yet probably, a vote winner.

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

I realise SKS is looking, much like Blair, to distance himself from socialism and hope the Party becomes acceptable to centre and right voters who have voted Tory because they don't trust Labour. Corbyn thought he could roll out popular policies and get to No10. But the only one that mattered at the time was Brexit and he stuttered and stalled.

I am pretty certain that if SKS could leave a little room for one or two policies that would signal he is willing to embrace the left, he would cement his popularity within the Party and make Labour electable.

I would liketo see a revised Clause 4. One that says the intention is to bring water and energy back into public ownership. Those sort of policies, once confirmed, eould be a wonderful olive branch to the left and yet probably, a vote winner.

Couldn't agree more with the final paragraph. I've even spoken to some Tories recently who begrudgingly agree. I wonder why...... 

[Yellow Fever 3,787]

11 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I realise SKS is looking, much like Blair, to distance himself from socialism and hope the Party becomes acceptable to centre and right voters who have voted Tory because they don't trust Labour. Corbyn thought he could roll out popular policies and get to No10. But the only one that mattered at the time was Brexit and he stuttered and stalled.

I am pretty certain that if SKS could leave a little room for one or two policies that would signal he is willing to embrace the left, he would cement his popularity within the Party and make Labour electable.

I would liketo see a revised Clause 4. One that says the intention is to bring water and energy back into public ownership. Those sort of policies, once confirmed, eould be a wonderful olive branch to the left and yet probably, a vote winner.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Water as manifesto commitment. It's a true natural monopoly.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

43 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I realise SKS is looking, much like Blair, to distance himself from socialism and hope the Party becomes acceptable to centre and right voters who have voted Tory because they don't trust Labour. Corbyn thought he could roll out popular policies and get to No10. But the only one that mattered at the time was Brexit and he stuttered and stalled.

I am pretty certain that if SKS could leave a little room for one or two policies that would signal he is willing to embrace the left, he would cement his popularity within the Party and make Labour electable.

I would liketo see a revised Clause 4. One that says the intention is to bring water and energy back into public ownership. Those sort of policies, once confirmed, eould be a wonderful olive branch to the left and yet probably, a vote winner.

Agree 95% - if your final paragraph had read......

I would liketo see a revised Clause 4. One that says the intention is to bring water,  energy and railways back into public ownership. Those sort of policies, once confirmed, eould be a wonderful olive branch to the left and yet probably, a vote winner.

........you would have got the full 100% 😀

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

I would liketo see a revised Clause 4. One that says the intention is to bring water and energy back into public ownership. Those sort of policies, once confirmed, eould be a wonderful olive branch to the left and yet probably, a vote winner.

An eminently sensible suggestion and inevitably popular policy, as it was shown in opinion polling in 2019, and that was before the gargantuan energy profits announced amidst a major cost of living crisis.

Yet both he and Reeves have pretty much confirmed they are ditching the nationalisation policies he stood on to win the Labour leadership election. His investment fund manager and millionaire financial backers simply won't allow it. He might manage a tepid, phased process towards rail nationalisation but that will be the most he is allowed to do.

[horsefly 4,300]

7 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

JC was absolutely stupid over anti Semitism (and Brexit but that is another topic). He cannot divorce himself from his hatred of Israel's policies and the need to stop British people being anti Semitic against British Jews. If he just said that he finds it difficult to support British Jews who support Israel's policies then I could understand it even though it would still be a watered down apology.

But to allow so many Momentum members, who were his main grass root supporters, to openly make anti semitic statements while representing the Party is the reason he now finds himself yesterdays man. And to say that he doesn't respect or agree with the EHRC findings then he is denying democracy the same way as he accuses SKS of denying him.

These stupid, stupid people have so much to offer but they cannot accept the grey areas of life. And in the end defeat what they set out to achieve. I think Diane Abbot has a good heart but is so enveloped by the belief that she is not taken seriously because she is black and a woman.

Labour has to be very careful if they want to win back the massive group that turned blue because of Brexit. They have to acknowledge that those voters are not too interested in foreign policy and do not believe the UK is racist and owes the world anything. Important to them is finance and conditions. And whoever puts those policies first will win their support.

Yep! you only have to view twitter to see what a toxic bunch the Corbynistas are. They refuse to accept any criticism of Corbyn, including a complete denial of the existence of anti-Semitism, and spend their time harassing Labour centrists while telling others not to vote Labour. Sadly they have no interest whatsoever in playing a role in defeating the Tories or contributing to a genuine debate within the party. Starmer is absolutely right to refuse to tolerate their presence. The Labour Party came into being to serve the interests of all working class people, the Corbynistas think it exists solely to serve their interest in preserving ideological purity. Real people are suffering desperately in their millions as a result of this government's calamitous mismanagement of the economy. It's becoming almost impossible to bear hearing the desperate daily stories of people suffering abject poverty and despair. It should be beyond question that they need a Labour Party that is electable to begin the project of restoring decency and hope to their lives. Thus I'm afraid I have no time for the extraordinary self-indulgence of ideological purists who would rather visit another 5 years of Tory rule upon the most disadvantaged rather than support a Labour government committed to honest achievable goals.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

15 hours ago, horsefly said:

Yep! you only have to view twitter to see what a toxic bunch the Corbynistas are. They refuse to accept any criticism of Corbyn, including a complete denial of the existence of anti-Semitism, and spend their time harassing Labour centrists while telling others not to vote Labour. Sadly they have no interest whatsoever in playing a role in defeating the Tories or contributing to a genuine debate within the party. Starmer is absolutely right to refuse to tolerate their presence. The Labour Party came into being to serve the interests of all working class people, the Corbynistas think it exists solely to serve their interest in preserving ideological purity. Real people are suffering desperately in their millions as a result of this government's calamitous mismanagement of the economy. It's becoming almost impossible to bear hearing the desperate daily stories of people suffering abject poverty and despair. It should be beyond question that they need a Labour Party that is electable to begin the project of restoring decency and hope to their lives. Thus I'm afraid I have no time for the extraordinary self-indulgence of ideological purists who would rather visit another 5 years of Tory rule upon the most disadvantaged rather than support a Labour government committed to honest achievable goals.

Their aim is to inflict as much pain on the electorate as possible. They love the Tories being in power. Its the oldest trick in the political book. 

What they want is revolution not evolution.

Having said that, the current crises surely indicate to SKS that we need some state control. Market forces now appear to be singular market force which is greed.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

7 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Having said that, the current crises surely indicate to SKS that we need some state control. Market forces now appear to be singular market force which is greed.

You would have thought so but Starmer seems to have entirely conflated Corbyn as a person and leader with his policy platform which to me seems a surprisingly dim thing to do.

Corbyn was a disaster as leader of the Labour Party but the policies that he fought the 2019 election on were in many areas superior to the vague and insipid (IMO) of Starmer who still seems to be staking his electoral appeal entirely on not being a Tory.

Granted that is, one assumes, going to be a fairly compelling reason to vote for him for a great many people and will almost certainly make Labour the largest party after the next GE but whether it will deliver sufficient support/enthusiam amongst the electorate and indeed the majority of seats required to deliver the scale of change required in this country is still very much in doubt, and at the moment he is giving no indication that he has a grasp of the scale of the changes required anyway.

Personally, despite fervently hoping he beats the Tories, I won't be voting for him  - not unless, as I've posted several times before, he puts together some kind of alliance, formally or informally, with other opposition parties and a much more significant set of policies than his current timid set of offerings.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Creative Midfielder

[Bort 34]

5 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Market forces now appear to be singular market force which is greed.

"Market forces" have always been greed. The primary driver for the vast majority of private corporations is profit (as they answer to their shareholders and creditors, not the wider public). That's the inherent nature of capitalism.

The more of an economy that market forces are allowed to control, the greedier a society will inevitably be.

The problem for neoliberalism is that the private sector has already penetrated so many of the previously state-owned aspects of the economy (healthcare, housing, telecommunications, mail, rail, energy, water) over the last 40 years that there's not much left to sell off in the pursuit of a quick buck.

As others have noted, Starmer has provided so little evidence that a Labour government under his leadership would represent a significant deviation from the path we've been on. "I'm a competent grown up and my heart is in the right place" isn't a meaningful message unless you can point to tangible policies which will materially improve people's lives. It will be fascinating to see what he actually commits to as a general election draws nearer.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

The more open Starmer is with potential policy now, the more time it gives our mainstream media to attack it. I think it's understandable, if timid, for Starmer to play this beige centrist game right now.

[Bort 34]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

The more open Starmer is with potential policy now, the more time it gives our mainstream media to attack it. I think it's understandable, if timid, for Starmer to play this beige centrist game right now.

If it is a game, then I have to say, Starmer and the shadow cabinet do make very convincing beige centrists. Bravo all.

[Herman 9,768]

Quite a clever PMQs for Starmer today. He was leaving a few traps and potential mines for Sunak in the future, whilst also coming across as the statesman willing to move Britain and NI forward. Sunak came back with a few of his boring and scripted "haymaker" punches but he is trapped between the headbangers or looking for help from the opposition. Drowning not waving?

[benchwarmer 625]

Today SKS has set out his priorities for achieving his overall aim to "Give Britain its Future Back".

He avoided the B-word like the plague but he knows perfectly well that this won't happen without a closer relationship with the EU.

 

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,721]

Much as it may pain those who still think there is a war to fight among Labour with Corbyn, who hold the more radical far left wing views..

 

Think it's fair to say that being a non controversial, even if somewhat boring, beige slight leftwing centrist is working out well in Keir's favour with the general population of the UK.

After all Corbyn was somewhat popular with the general public.. Until he decided to go all far left middle class student univeristy leader and then his popularity and party plumited to record low popularity.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

All rhetoric again from SKS. He must have borrowed Boris's say everything but tell them nothing book.

The Tories are in disarray over NI again and with a great big shove from Labour, there is a chance to back them into the corner. But we need more than 5 points. What and how will the points be achieved and with what cost? Let the nation know there is a proper plan to restore the better life to millions who are in the midst of their own depression. No more lawyer speak.

[canarydan23 4,060]

SKS got pretty skewered on his deceitful leadership campaign on Radio 4.

I suspect the more exposed he gets to the public during a General Election, the less appealing he will appear. Most people don't watch the news or follow politics. They won't hear about these 5 Missions (sounds more like an alcohol addiction pathway). At the moment Labour's lead is huge because the Tories are in total disarray. But when push comes to shove, if he carries on with politics by platitude, he won't get anywhere near the votes he needs to form a Labour majority, what with the archaic and Tory-favouring FPTP and the purge on the poor voter disenfranchisement the Tories are conducting.

I hope some of you are right and SKS is just keeping his powder dry before coming up with a genuinely reforming manifesto. I don't think he has the minerals. Labour will almost inevitably be the party with the most seats at the next general election, but without some decent, radical policies, my money is on minority government.

That said, if the Lib Dems get enough seats to be a junior coalition partner and put their price as proportional representation, then it could be the dream outcome for our nation's future.

[Van wink 2,994]

The anti Tory mood is so strong the best thing SKS can do is say as little as possible

[Aggy 755]

10 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

 

I suspect the more exposed he gets to the public during a General Election, the less appealing he will appear.

I hope some of you are right and SKS is just keeping his powder dry before coming up with a genuinely reforming manifesto. I don't think he has the minerals. Labour will almost inevitably be the party with the most seats at the next general election, but without some decent, radical policies, my money is on minority government.

 

The first paragraph being why from a pure “win the next election” perspective it probably is best for him to keep quiet and rely on the “anything must be better than the Tories” sentiment. Leave them to talk/act their way out of it.

Sad state of affairs though really when we’d be electing a party without actually knowing much detail at all about what it  plans to do. (And that electing such a party without knowing much about what it plans to do is seen as the better option!)

The five missions at least sound like a start. Hopefully they’ll get padded out “later in the year” with more detail as to what the actual plan is.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, Aggy said:

The first paragraph being why from a pure “win the next election” perspective it probably is best for him to keep quiet and rely on the “anything must be better than the Tories” sentiment. Leave them to talk/act their way out of it.

Sad state of affairs though really when we’d be electing a party without actually knowing much detail at all about what it  plans to do. (And that electing such a party without knowing much about what it plans to do is seen as the better option!)

The five missions at least sound like a start. Hopefully they’ll get padded out “later in the year” with more detail as to what the actual plan is.

If his five missions get padded out later in the year, then it'll probably break his record for length of time he's stuck with an idea/policy.

[Van wink 2,994]

26 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

If his five missions get padded out later in the year, then it'll probably break his record for length of time he's stuck with an idea/policy.

 

45 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

SKS got pretty skewered on his deceitful leadership campaign on Radio 4.

I suspect the more exposed he gets to the public during a General Election, the less appealing he will appear. Most people don't watch the news or follow politics. They won't hear about these 5 Missions (sounds more like an alcohol addiction pathway). At the moment Labour's lead is huge because the Tories are in total disarray. But when push comes to shove, if he carries on with politics by platitude, he won't get anywhere near the votes he needs to form a Labour majority, what with the archaic and Tory-favouring FPTP and the purge on the poor voter disenfranchisement the Tories are conducting.

I hope some of you are right and SKS is just keeping his powder dry before coming up with a genuinely reforming manifesto. I don't think he has the minerals. Labour will almost inevitably be the party with the most seats at the next general election, but without some decent, radical policies, my money is on minority government.

That said, if the Lib Dems get enough seats to be a junior coalition partner and put their price as proportional representation, then it could be the dream outcome for our nation's future.

He is electable unlike the clown JC. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

32 minutes ago, Van wink said:

He is electable unlike the clown JC. 

Unelectable is a little strong considering in 2017 he received considerably more votes than David Cameron ever managed.

But JC was the wrong leader with the right policies who was criminally unable to prioritise the nation over his own interests, which led to silence on electoral reform and a cluster **** over Brexit (who was Shadow Brexit Secretary at the time, by the way?). He was also guilty of the Boris phenomen whereby millions of utter morons fell for his self-peddled idea that he, a demonstrable liar and moron, was Prime Ministerial. Plenty of us tried telling you all; being proven right has never been so painful.

If Starmer's stands on a 2019 manifesto, or the manifesto he stood on for Labour leader, he'll clear up and we're in 400+ seat territory.

Sadly, his hedge fund backers won't tolerate it and it'll be a "look at me, I'm a little less Tory than them". Probably enough to get Labour as the largest party, only because of how abject the Tories are, but not enough to take full advantage of the gaping open goal the Tory meltdown has presented. 

But then I suspect he doesn't care. He's just like Cameron and Johnson; the aim is the keys to Downing Street. Once acquired, it's job done. And the country? What does he care? A few years of ministerial limos and then it's off to a massive house in the country with his millions and an occasional luxury trip to a well remunerated lecture or two.

[Yellow Fever 3,787]

20 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Unelectable is a little strong considering in 2017 he received considerably more votes than David Cameron ever managed.

But JC was the wrong leader with the right policies who was criminally unable to prioritise the nation over his own interests, which led to silence on electoral reform and a cluster **** over Brexit (who was Shadow Brexit Secretary at the time, by the way?). He was also guilty of the Boris phenomen whereby millions of utter morons fell for his self-peddled idea that he, a demonstrable liar and moron, was Prime Ministerial. Plenty of us tried telling you all; being proven right has never been so painful.

If Starmer's stands on a 2019 manifesto, or the manifesto he stood on for Labour leader, he'll clear up and we're in 400+ seat territory.

Sadly, his hedge fund backers won't tolerate it and it'll be a "look at me, I'm a little less Tory than them". Probably enough to get Labour as the largest party, only because of how abject the Tories are, but not enough to take full advantage of the gaping open goal the Tory meltdown has presented. 

But then I suspect he doesn't care. He's just like Cameron and Johnson; the aim is the keys to Downing Street. Once acquired, it's job done. And the country? What does he care? A few years of ministerial limos and then it's off to a massive house in the country with his millions and an occasional luxury trip to a well remunerated lecture or two.

A quick reposte to this would be that SKS - when he was attacked by the partisan right wing press baying for blood over 'beergate' said he would resign if found guilty.

That doesn't chime at all with somebody only in it for themselves.

Frankly you're way off target.

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

A quick reposte to this would be that SKS - when he was attacked by the partisan right wing press baying for blood over 'beergate' said he would resign if found guilty.

That doesn't chime at all with somebody only in it for themselves.

Frankly you're way off target.

Lol. It's almost as if someone who was Director of Public Prosecutions for five years knew the law and therefore took advantage of an opportunity to gain some credibility points.

Obviously worked, didn't it?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

 

He is electable unlike the clown JC. 

I'll give you that. We have had enough of the chancers like Johnson and now return to Sunak/SKS types. Unbelievable that so many Tories think bringing back Johnson could swing it.

[Van wink 2,994]

47 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

 

But JC was the wrong leader with the right policies who was criminally unable to prioritise the nation over his own interests, which led to silence on electoral reform and a cluster **** over Brexit (who was Shadow Brexit Secretary at the time, by the way?). He was also guilty of the Boris phenomen whereby millions of utter morons fell for his self-peddled idea that he, a demonstrable liar and moron, was Prime Ministerial. Plenty of us tried telling you all; being proven right has never been so painful.

 

 The morons that supported Corbyn wasted their golden opportunity